399 replies to this topic

[Arturo]

I am resisting from pointing out flaws in Artuno's theory though, because it certainly doesn't mesh with my concept of a split timeline, but my earlier posts in this topic cover all that.

Try it please. I love discussing these things. And yes, my theory isn't perfect, but I think it fits very well with the facts we know.

EDIT:

I would also mention that I do not really agree with Artuno's form of events, there are flaws I can see there (I do not believe Ganon was sealed in both the past and the future, that's a fanfic explaination if you ask me), but some of it is right.

Link is sent by Zelda at the end of OoT to the past. Since the Door of Time is already opened, we can assume that Zelda and Impa have escaped from Ganondorf. But Zelda is in the Castle Courtyard. Conclussion: Ganondorf is not between us by then . And the only possible way for that to work is having Ganon sealed in both timelines. It's not fanficcish, it's the logical conclusion.

And if we accept Nayru as being the same as the Goddess of Time, it turns out to be really possible....... But I don't want to discuss it now

Edited by Arturo, 22 June 2006 - 11:49 AM.

[Hero of Slime]

So, as an example, and I like examples... God comes down from on high, very noticably for once, and tells everyone 'uh, you know that Adam and Eve story you have in the Bible? Yeah, it's not really the whole story. Here's *exactly* what happened', and he gives them the new story. But in the new story, it turns out Adam ate the apple first, and thus Biblical literalists go up in arms and claim that that affects the entire concept of 'original sin' and therefore this story must be about *another*, seperate Garden of Eden, no matter how illogical that idea is.

Why would people need to say both stories had to happen? The biblical literalists would just say that the new story was false and never happend, they would not place it as a later event. Zelda is different, we can not say that events never happened. If we could then we could make a perfect timeline by just taking ALttP out.

History it self can not change, only what we know about it changes. The discovery of the new story does not change who ate the apple first. Zelda is different, At the Time when ALttP was released its back story was the truth, but when OoT was made it all changed.

Edited by The Zol, 22 June 2006 - 12:38 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The Seal trascends time because the Goddesess want it to. The rest of the things, no.

But you're making assumptions. Have you spoken to the Goddesses? Because there's surely no game evidence whatsoever that the Seal transcends time.

[Hero of Legend]

Not only that, but the Goddesses didn't even make the Seal:

The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm. I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world.

Ancient Creators of Hyrule! Now, open the sealed door and send the Evil Incarnation of Darkness into the void of the Evil Realm!!

In short: 1) Goddesses open door 2) Sages “lure” Ganondorf in 3) Zelda seals door.

So, how do you explain how the Seal transcends time now, Arturo? (And yes, I am aware of the fact that a "Seal of the Seven Sages" apparently was never created in OoT...)

Edited by Hero of Legend, 22 June 2006 - 05:14 PM.

[Doopliss]

To an extent, yes, a single timeline makes it harder to place OoT and the IW as the same event. *However*... I do not conceed that a single timeline requires OoT and IW to be seperate events. There are FLAWS with this, just as there are flaws with other theories, and I do not see Zol of Tri-Enforcer trying to address these flaws. They argue that it makes no sense that Link seemingly vanished from history of ALttP, yet they also argue that the IW vanishes from the history of OoT or that OoT vanishes from the history of ALttP. I'd say these are far larger problems.

I have been thinking a bit about your theory. If OoT and the IW are the same, then ALttP can't be in the same timeline as TWW because of the problems I have pointed before (the same problems for a single timeline are the same for one of the split timelines if they have the same games, right?) Then, you say that the IW tells what happened in Ocarina of Time. However, they happen in different timelines, so Ganon had to be sealed in a different way in the child timeline, so why would the people retell OoT differently if there was an IW in their own timeline? It is more logical to think that ALttP's backstory tells about what happened in its own timeline. So I think Tri-Enforcer's theory is more accurate if we use a split timeline.

No, that's not the way it's suppossed to be. Imagine that we're not dealing with time, but with parallel universes. The so-called time travel is more like a travel between universes. What Link does on the Child Timeline after he gets the MS, doesn't affect the Adult one (except for things like Magic Beans, that's a gameplay thing) i.e. it doesn't matter whether Link dries the well in the past, it's already like that in the future.. Well, we count time since Link draws the MS in Child Universe, and since Link wakes up in the Adult Universe. Let's say this is the moment 0 of both universes. Well, if the Sages seal Ganon in the moment x of the Adult Universe, so is he in the Child Timeline, in the exact moment, that is, x time after Link gets the MS.

Well, not. There's not proof to say that the future is actually a paralell universe of the past. And your reasoning is mistaken because Ganon would already be sealed in the future when Link awakes for the first time. Unless you are using a split timeline?

Yes, it's not logical. But it's the only possible exaplanaton.

If we consider the IW to be OoT, there's no possible way for the timeline being single. So, the perfect timeline must be split.

We have already came with some other good explanations... That hardly proves we are forced to use a split timeline, as well.

[Mad Scrub]

Here's how I see it.

If the adult Princess Zelda sent the HoT back in time seven years just after his former self met the young Princess Zelda then...

• there would be two Link's in Hyrule (the HoT and his former self)
• the DoT shouldn't be open (but it is)
• the MS should already be in the PoT (and it is)
• the HoT shouldn't have the ToC (unless he took it with him which means two ToC's too)
• the Young Princess Zelda should still be in the possession of the OoT (which works well with MM)

If the adult Princess Zelda sent the HoT back in time seven years and how ever many minutes, hours or days later then...

• the Young Princess Zelda shouldn't have the OoT in her possession (which doesn't work well with MM)
• the Young Princess Zelda shouldn't be in Hyrule Castle (because it's not safe)

I believe in a single timeline because...

• TWW refers to both OoT and MM

I think FSA should come after TWW and before ALttP because...

• Ganondorf is killed in TWW (not confirmed)
• Ganondorf's origins are slightly different
• It tells the story of how Ganondorf took possession of the ToE and became Ganon the ancient demon and the King of Darkness

I don't think OoT or FSA are the IW because...

• the MS is used in OoT
• OoT and FSA both have heroes
• although the Triforce is shown in FSA it has no impact on the story whatsoever
• although the MS isn't used in FSA and the Knights of Hyrule are killed by Ganon, he is sealed by the Maidens not by the Wise Men/Sages

[Hero of Slime]

TWW refers to both OoT and MM

Yeah, it's strange that no one has brought this up yet. When I was a spliter, this was always the first comment in my timeline threads. Shows how much this board has changed.

Arturo, What do you think of TWW's allusions to MM, such as the Legend of the Fairy and the Postmans ancestry?

[Arturo]

But you're making assumptions. Have you spoken to the Goddesses? Because there's surely no game evidence whatsoever that the Seal transcends time.

Bwahahahahahaha Have you not noticed that you're speaking with Arturo the Oracle of... of... emmmm it doesn't matter.

There is evidence.
If the Door of Time is open then, Ganondorf has already attacked Hyrule once. But if Zelda is in the Castle Courtyard, that means Ganon is not around anymore.
What other explanation there is?
If the Goddessess are presumably all-powerful, it's possible to the Seal to trascend time(lines)

Not only that, but the Goddesses didn't even make the Seal:
In short: 1) Goddesses open door 2) Sages “lure” Ganondorf in 3) Zelda seals door.

The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm.
I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world.

Ancient Creators of Hyrule!
Now, open the sealed door and send the Evil Incarnation of Darkness into the void of the Evil Realm!!

So, how do you explain how the Seal transcends time now, Arturo? (And yes, I am aware of the fact that a "Seal of the Seven Sages" apparently was never created in OoT...)

Quotes contradict each other: while Zelda says that the Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganon, Rauru prays to the Goddesess (have I written it well?) so that they might seal him. Remember that all the Six Sages are awakened by the awakening voice from the Sacred Realm (almost certainly, the voice of Goddesses) and that Zelda posseses the ToW, the essence of the Goddess Nayru, who created order. And the time is part of this order. Then, it's the Goddesses who create the seal through the Seven Sages, not the Sages themselves.

I have been thinking a bit about your theory. If OoT and the IW are the same, then ALttP can't be in the same timeline as TWW because of the problems I have pointed before (the same problems for a single timeline are the same for one of the split timelines if they have the same games, right?) Then, you say that the IW tells what happened in Ocarina of Time. However, they happen in different timelines, so Ganon had to be sealed in a different way in the child timeline, so why would the people retell OoT differently if there was an IW in their own timeline? It is more logical to think that ALttP's backstory tells about what happened in its own timeline. So I think Tri-Enforcer's theory is more accurate if we use a split timeline.
Well, not. There's not proof to say that the future is actually a paralell universe of the past. And your reasoning is mistaken because Ganon would already be sealed in the future when Link awakes for the first time. Unless you are using a split timeline?
We have already came with some other good explanations... That hardly proves we are forced to use a split timeline, as well.

Of course I'm using a split timeline, that was implied on the whole reasoning (signature anyone?). What you say is contradictory? Are you sure you have read it well? What I say is that the TRUE Seal War is what happens on the Adult Timeline, but what the people of ALttP know is a distorted account of what happens on the Child Timeline after Ganondorf gets the Triforce. And Ganondorf is sealed in both timelines, since the Sages' Seal trascends time. And yes, ALttP and TWW are absolutely incompatible with each other. That's an important proof for a Split Timeline.

Here's how I see it.

If the adult Princess Zelda sent the HoT back in time seven years just after his former self met the young Princess Zelda then...

• there would be two Link's in Hyrule (the HoT and his former self)
• the DoT shouldn't be open (but it is)
• the MS should already be in the PoT (and it is)
• the HoT shouldn't have the ToC (unless he took it with him which means two ToC's too)
• the Young Princess Zelda should still be in the possession of the OoT (which works well with MM)

If the adult Princess Zelda sent the HoT back in time seven years and how ever many minutes, hours or days later then...

• the Young Princess Zelda shouldn't have the OoT in her possession (which doesn't work well with MM)
• the Young Princess Zelda shouldn't be in Hyrule Castle (because it's not safe)

I believe in a single timeline because...

• TWW refers to both OoT and MM

I think FSA should come after TWW and before ALttP because...

• Ganondorf is killed in TWW (not confirmed)
• Ganondorf's origins are slightly different
• It tells the story of how Ganondorf took possession of the ToE and became Ganon the ancient demon and the King of Darkness

I don't think OoT or FSA are the IW because...

• the MS is used in OoT
• OoT and FSA both have heroes
• although the Triforce is shown in FSA it has no impact on the story whatsoever
• although the MS isn't used in FSA and the Knights of Hyrule are killed by Ganon, he is sealed by the Maidens not by the Wise Men/Sages

The Door of Time is open, so it's after Link gets the MS. And since Zelda is already in the courtyard, Ganon has been sealed, the Castle is safe now. The problem with the Ocarina of Time happens in both timelines.... the only possible explanation is that those important items are in both timelines. Yes, it's a deus ex machina, bnut the problem is also in the single timeline.

Yeah, it's strange that no one has brought this up yet. When I was a spliter, this was always the first comment in my timeline threads. Shows how much this board has changed.

Arturo, What do you think of TWW's allusions to MM, such as the Legend of the Fairy and the Postmans ancestry?

Have you paid attention to the ending of MM? It shows all the good things that you have done in all the times you have traveled back in time... this means that the Goddess of Time has repaired the Termina Timeline, so that instead of lots of different timelines finishing all except one with destruction, we've got a SINGLE timeline with the best bits of all those ones. Since the Hyrule Timeline is Split and the Termina one, Single, it's possible Termina to go from to the Adult Hyrule. This is the explanation for the Legend of the Fairy, maybe Tingle wanted to go to Hyrule and finished in Adult Hyrule, since the timeline is only split in Hyrule. As for the postman... that is an easter egg, and remember that in Adult Hyrule there must also have been famous postmen. Other things, like the Masks on the Nintendo Gallery are resolved by remebering that in OoT masks are also very popular. And the sword of Phantom Ganon, you cannot use that as a proof, it's a joke by the creators!


It's over... it's finally over

P.S. I don't want to repeat anymore the evidences I have for the Sages' Seal trascending timelines.

[Hero of Slime]

It shows all the good things that you have done in all the times you have traveled back in time... this means that the Goddess of Time has repaired the Termina Timeline, so that instead of lots of different timelines finishing all except one with destruction, we've got a SINGLE timeline with the best bits of all those ones. Since the Hyrule Timeline is Split and the Termina one, Single, it's possible Termina to go from to the Adult Hyrule. This is the explanation for the Legend of the Fairy, maybe Tingle wanted to go to Hyrule and finished in Adult Hyrule, since the timeline is only split in Hyrule.

So the Timeline in Termina does not split. All the events would have happened in the child reality. If Tingle did find the portal to Hyrule he would only be able to go to the Child reality. In the Adult reality Termina has been destroyed, since Termina does not transcend Timelines.

And yes, ALttP and TWW are absolutely incompatible with each other.

Not when the IW is not the events of OoT.

the only possible explanation is that those important items are in both timelines. Yes, it's a deus ex machina, bnut the problem is also in the single timeline.

The Ocarina is not a problem in a single Timeline. Adult Zelda can send the Ocarina back to her younger self.

[Arturo]

So the Timeline in Termina does not split. All the events would have happened in the child reality. If Tingle did find the portal to Hyrule he would only be able to go to the Child reality. In the Adult reality Termina has been destroyed, since Termina does not transcend Timelines.

No, because in Termina there is neither Child Termina, nor Adult Termina, but Termina, since one is suppossed not to be able to go from Termina to Hyrule or from Hyrule to Termina, there shouldn't be no time paradoxes. But some special people seem to be able.... Termina is communicated to Hyrule, to both Hyrules. If you go through the portal that communicate both lands you can finish in one of the two Hyrules. And Tingle finished in the Adult one.

Not when the IW is not the events of OoT.
The Ocarina is not a problem in a single Timeline. Adult Zelda can send the Ocarina back to her younger self.

Of course TWW and ALttP are compatible if we don't consider the IW to be OoT. But I think it has been proved the IW and OoT are the same thing.

The Ocarina can also be sent to the past by Zelda in a split timeline.

[MikePetersSucks]

I always thought that Termina was a sort of third seperate timeline, since it's an alternate universe in it's own right. Imagine Hyrule and Termina as two straight lines. Now for the sake of arguement, let's assume the Hyrule line splits into two. This does not mean that the Termina line would break into two as well, and it continues as a single timeline. That way, someone can travel from one timeline into Termina, and then from Termina into another timeline and assume it's however many years later due to a time warp. TWW/MM problem solved.

And back to the Seal transcending time, yea, ok, let's assume that happens. So Ganon is sealed in all time somehow. How is he...even....like, BORN then? How does the damage he do still happen? You see, it just inevidably brings in more problems then it solves. There's no canon prove the Seal transcends time anyway.

Here's something for you to think about. If the Seal transcends time, and it's broken in LTTP, then wouldn't it, by your logic, stop the Seal from ever existing?

[Arturo]

I always thought that Termina was a sort of third seperate timeline, since it's an alternate universe in it's own right. Imagine Hyrule and Termina as two straight lines. Now for the sake of arguement, let's assume the Hyrule line splits into two. This does not mean that the Termina line would break into two as well, and it continues as a single timeline. That way, someone can travel from one timeline into Termina, and then from Termina into another timeline and assume it's however many years later due to a time warp. TWW/MM problem solved.

Exactly what I think, but expressed in a different way.

And back to the Seal transcending time, yea, ok, let's assume that happens. So Ganon is sealed in all time somehow. How is he...even....like, BORN then? How does the damage he do still happen? You see, it just inevidably brings in more problems then it solves. There's no canon prove the Seal transcends time anyway.

Here's something for you to think about. If the Seal transcends time, and it's broken in LTTP, then wouldn't it, by your logic, stop the Seal from ever existing?

I have already answered that question. I will make a little summary: Hyrule's storyline splits in two timelines. In the exact moment Ganon's sealed on the Adult timeline, he is in the Child one. But he's not sealed when he's born or when he says he's first word, he's sealed in the moment x of both timelines. He is not sealed in all times but in all timelines, that's what I mean as trascending time.

Second question. Second Answer, what you do in Child Hyrule doesn't affect Adult Hyrule, since Timelines are split.

If you have an amoeba, and it reproduces in two, and one of them is later eaten by another microbius it doesn't affect to the other. The same for the Sages' Seal.

P.S. (Newbie question) Who is Mike Peters?

Edited by Arturo, 23 June 2006 - 01:45 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

I think that since Termina and Hyrule are parallel worlds they would be on the same time continuity.

Of course TWW and ALttP are compatible if we don't consider the IW to be OoT. But I think it has been proved the IW and OoT are the same thing.

No it has not. Fyxe thinks it has, but it has not. You even say that it is not Oot in your timeline.

In the exact moment Ganon's sealed on the Adult timeline, he is in the Child one.

Then Ganon would not be sealed in the child timeline right as Link returns, he would be instantly sealed seven years later.

[Arturo]

I think that since Termina and Hyrule are parallel worlds they would be on the same time continuity.

Of course, but if some time anomaly happens to Hyrule that needn't afect Termina.

No it has not. Fyxe thinks it has, but it has not. You even say that it is not Oot in your timeline.

It has, apart from the-year-90's creators quotes, we've got the textual changes on ALttP GBA that were made so that they might fit better with OoT (for example, Wise Men--->Sages). And Nintendo has never changed the background stories of any Zelda game, so there's no reason to change ALttP's. The ones who believe that OoT is the Seal War don't have to prove it is, because we have the creator's quotes. You HAVE TO demonstrate it, not I. And I have never said that the IW is not OoT, I only say that what is told in the ALttP manual is distorted, it's not 100% real, but contains a mixture of facts and invention (caused by the confussion of not knowing about Time Travel) .

Then Ganon would not be sealed in the child timeline right as Link returns, he would be instantly sealed seven years later.

I made a little summary about it, but because I thougth I had already made it clear, I forgot to mention that the moment 0 in each timeline is different. The Moment 0 in the Child Timeline is when Link pulls the MS out and is sealed in the Sacred Realm. The Moment 0 in the Adult Timeline is when Link wakes up in the Temple of Time. If the Seven Sages seal Ganon, let's say, 2 months after Link awakens in the Temple of Time, in the Child Timeline Ganon is sealed 2 months after Link gets the MS.


Am I the only one who is fed-up of time travel?

[Hero of Slime]

Of course, but if some time anomaly happens to Hyrule that needn't afect Termina.

But if the anomaly affects the whole time-continuity, I would affect all planes connected to that continuity.

It has, apart from the-year-90's creators quotes, we've got the textual changes on ALttP GBA that were made so that they might fit better with OoT (for example, Wise Men--->Sages). And Nintendo has never changed the background stories of any Zelda game, so there's no reason to change ALttP's. The ones who believe that OoT is the Seal War don't have to prove it is, because we have the creator's quotes. You HAVE TO demonstrate it, not I. And I have never said that the IW is not OoT, I only say that what is told in the ALttP manual is distorted, it's not 100% real, but contains a mixture of facts and invention (caused by the confussion of not knowing about Time Travel) .

In your theory you have ALttP on the child timeline. Based on your theory: Ganon is sealed in the child timeline because of what happend on the adult timeline, but the events of the adult timeline don't really happen in the child timeline. So therefore you have ALttP's backstory as a diferent event from the events of OoT's adult ending. The game creators intended for them to be the same, thus you are contradicting the quotes as well.

A split timeline can not really have ALttP's backstory be the same events as OoT. I think the creators intended to have the sealing of Ganon done by Link at the end of OoT to be AlttP's BS. If you don't have it that way you are contradicting the creators.

Games backstories have changed. Before OoT, the IW as writen in the ALttP manual was the truth. The OoT was made and the IW story changed.

, I forgot to mention that the moment 0 in each timeline is different.

Why?

Edited by The Zol, 23 June 2006 - 09:55 PM.

[Doopliss]

Have you paid attention to the ending of MM? It shows all the good things that you have done in all the times you have traveled back in time... this means that the Goddess of Time has repaired the Termina Timeline, so that instead of lots of different timelines finishing all except one with destruction, we've got a SINGLE timeline with the best bits of all those ones. Since the Hyrule Timeline is Split and the Termina one, Single, it's possible Termina to go from to the Adult Hyrule. This is the explanation for the Legend of the Fairy, maybe Tingle wanted to go to Hyrule and finished in Adult Hyrule, since the timeline is only split in Hyrule. As for the postman... that is an easter egg, and remember that in Adult Hyrule there must also have been famous postmen. Other things, like the Masks on the Nintendo Gallery are resolved by remebering that in OoT masks are also very popular. And the sword of Phantom Ganon, you cannot use that as a proof, it's a joke by the creators!

Good! This is a new and interesting theory!

Of course TWW and ALttP are compatible if we don't consider the IW to be OoT. But I think it has been proved the IW and OoT are the same thing.

Sorry, but you have failed to prove that yet. It surely can work in a split timeline, but not on a single one.

I disagree with the point zero theory. If there is a split, it would be created in the child Link time, because that's the point where a paradox would occur and it would be fixed with a split.

Am I the only one who is fed-up of time travel?

How long do you wish to stay here...? I have been discussing this for about 2 years, but it seems like I'm finally getting to definitely understand how it actually works

Who is Mike Peters?

It's a member who came in the last quarter of 2003 who believed that TWW had never happened simply because he didn't liked the cell shaded style, so he made a theory that said TWW was alone in a split timeline. However, he was banned before 2004 because it turned impossible to discuss with him after more than three threads of several pages long that had all been closed. It seems like Aura Twilight (Mike Peters Sucks) is the one who hates him the most.

[Arturo]

But if the anomaly affects the whole time-continuity, I would affect all planes connected to that continuity.

Have you ever studied physics? Well, let's think there are two universes, conneceted by a wormhole. Their time is abosultely independent. In the Universe called Hyrule, there is a time anomaly that splits the timeline (Have you read that book by Stephen Hawking? He says that if someone travels to past and changes something, that wouldn't afect the future, but create another alternate reality) But since that time anomaly doesn't afect the Universe called Termina, then we have a Termina Universe and two Hyrule Universes. If you travel through the wormhole from Termina to Hyrule, you don't know in which alternate Hyrule you will finish.

It's all physics.

In your theory you have ALttP on the child timeline. Based on your theory: Ganon is sealed in the child timeline because of what happend on the adult timeline, but the events of the adult timeline don't really happen in the child timeline. So therefore you have ALttP's backstory as a diferent event from the events of OoT's adult ending. The game creators intended for them to be the same, thus you are contradicting the quotes as well.

A split timeline can not really have ALttP's backstory be the same events as OoT. I think the creators intended to have the sealing of Ganon done by Link at the end of OoT to be AlttP's BS. If you don't have it that way you are contradicting the creators.

Games backstories have changed. Before OoT, the IW as writen in the ALttP manual was the truth. The OoT was made and the IW story changed.

From a historian point of view, you are right, OoT is not the IW, at least most of it. But from a gamer point of view, even though the Timeline splits, OoT is the IW. And from what I remember, we are gamers, not historians. So the IW is OoT, but not in the exact way the creators implied it in the 90's. But it still is.

Why?

We don't have to ask why. Zelda games are not suppossed to be logical we have some proofs that suggest that this was what happened. Why? I have no idea. But that's what happened.

Good! This is a new and interesting theory!

Thank you! But that theory isn't exactly of my own, but of a friend. This inspiration went to him when we were trying to figure what happened to the Legend of the Fairy.

Sorry, but you have failed to prove that yet. It surely can work in a split timeline, but not on a single one.

Of course my theory workd just on a split timeline, that's because I'm a splittimeliner. OoT cannot be the IW in a Single Timeline.

I disagree with the point zero theory. If there is a split, it would be created in the child Link time, because that's the point where a paradox would occur and it would be fixed with a split.

The paradox happens in Child Hyrule, it splits the Timeline and... But the Time is relative to Link because he has the time in his hands. So, the point 0 of the Adult Tiomeline is when he comes back from the (relatively timeless) Sacred Realm.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Fyxe) We do know exactly when Link goes back, Tri-Enforcer. Zelda orders him to put the Master Sword back in the Pedestal of Time and close the Door of Time. If the door is open and the sword is drawn, then it must be after Link has opened the door and drawn the sword, obviously. Also, that would be after Ganondorf enters.

No. When Link and Zelda first met in the courtyard, Link did not have the Goron bracelet. However he did retrieve the bracelet by the time Ganon attacked the castle. (This all happens in the 1st half of OOT). As you know, whenever Link travels backwards via the Master Sword, he goes back to a point sometime after Ganon breeched the Sacred Realm. If you ever notice that each time Link returns as a child--he is wearing the Goron bracelet. When Zelda sends Link back for the final time, by playing the Ocarina, we see child Link in front of the MS as usual--like anyother time he travels back. However, this time, child Link is not wearing the Goron bracelet. Then in the final cut scene with Zelda, Link still does not have the Goron bracelet on--just like the first time we saw them meet--Link didn't have the bracelet then either. (I'm watching the speed run video of OOT as I type) That's what leads me to believe that Link was sent back to a point before he ever met Zelda.

I understand that we see the mark of the Triforce of Courage on Link's hand, but that's a bit fishy. Why? Well, we don't see the mark on child Link's hand the moment he is sent back by Zelda for the final time, while standing in the Temple of Time, we also don't see the Goron bracelet this time around as well as I pointed out earlier. Then, in the final courtyard scene--we see the mark. Why is it showing up now? Can't be because another Triforce part is around--cuz Zelda doesn't have the Triforce of Wisdom at this point in time. If she did, I'm sure her mark would've resonated too--as what usually happens when one or more Triforce parts are close together.

The mark is not glowing in the Temple of Time when Link is sent back for the final time. There are no other Triforce parts around so we'd assume that would be the reason it's not glowing while there. Then again..there are no Triforce parts around in the courtyard, so why glow there? Try explaining that one. I know what you're gonna say (or something similar)...'It has something to do with Zelda'--no duh. I'll agree with you there, to this extent--the mark is just an indicator that Link is the Hero of Time and that he accomplished his exploits across time. That mark is just a symbol that will help reassure Zelda and maybe even the King of what Link accomplished and to be ever cautious of Ganondorf.

(Fyxe) There are FLAWS with this, just as there are flaws with other theories, and I do not see Zol of Tri-Enforcer trying to address these flaws. They argue that it makes no sense that Link seemingly vanished from history of ALttP, yet they also argue that the IW vanishes from the history of OoT or that OoT vanishes from the history of ALttP. I'd say these are far larger problems.

That's if OOT is even the freakin' IW. My theory still has the IW story occuring as stated in the aLttP intro--not the way we assume it should be with OOT.

(Fyxe) It makes reasonable sense that the legend would come to imagine an army of knights rather than one man. If it was known that some soldiers died fighting Ganon and also known that Ganon was defeated, for the generations ahead it would make more sense that these two events were linked, rather than the idea that some hero appeared froim nothing and then vanished into nothing. With the Master Sword remaining in the Pedestal of Time and the Door of Time once more closed, only the royal family and a few select individuals would necessarily know the whole truth. The population of Hyrule would be more inclined to glorify their own troops than one faceless hero that the royal family obsess about. Stories change over time, and the creators of OoT always knew they had that to fall back on when they were working with the IW story.
I see ALttP happening much, much further into the future than TWW does. Also, I expect this story was mainly believed by the royal family, while much of the population thought of it as a silly legend or tradition. Historically, they would be more inclined to believe in an army, *especially* when a hero never reappeared.

During aLttP everyone talks about Link becoming the hero this and Link being the hero that...sounds to me like Hyrule gets a kick out of hoping for a lone hero to save the day. Just ask the Hyruleans from OOT, MC, LoZ, etc.... There goes giving hope to your troops who are already known and proven figthers. If Link actually fought in the IW story described in aLttP, there would be a statue of him somewhere (like in TWW) or maybe some stain glass display of him (like in MC). You mean to tell me that all the 'hero' gets is a blank entry in the legend of Hyrule's most infamous war? Then centuries later, Hyrule is calling for a 'hero' to save them? I'd be like, "Go call all your darn Knights and Sages to do the work! I'm sure they'd love the publicity."

(Fyxe) Yes, I don't doubt that, but during that time they probably kept their eyes open for an alternate option. Nobody could stand seven years of waiting without doing anything to look for an alternative, especially not people with the lofty desires of Zelda and Rauru.

I'm sure they did. Have you ever heard of an army?

(Fyxe) Like I said, the mark is on and off depending on cutscene or gameplay. For both Link and Ganon. It's clearly a graphical oversight.

I could say the same of OOT, but I don't usually blow things off as nothing like you. Read my explanation on this above earlier in this post.

(Fyxe) Firstly, the mark isn't always there. We KNOW that it isn't always there. He has the ToC throughout OoT and it only shows up on his hand a few times, notably when he is near someone who also has a piece, but even then, not at every single moment. Finally, I don't remember ever seeing a shot of both Link and Zelda in the flashbacks. You just see Zelda talking to the camera.

Actually there is a shot of her and Link in MM. Why don't you go back and play. You will also notice no Triforce mark on either of them.

(Zol) Yeah, it's strange that no one has brought this up yet. When I was a spliter, this was always the first comment in my timeline threads. Shows how much this board has changed.

Arturo, What do you think of TWW's allusions to MM, such as the Legend of the Fairy and the Postmans ancestry?

Has it occured to you that some splitters do not believe that TWW makes allusions to MM. Maybe that's why they've never gone into detail about it. I think the Legend of The Fairy is simply a joke...poking fun at the Hero of Time and the intro to TWW. Also, Tingle somehwat of a con--I mean look at how much he charges! He probalyn used that story to lure more followers. I mean look at how he treats them-letting them do all the work that little island of theirs--he'd tell them anything due to his obsession with becoming a fairy. Also, you don't get this story until the 2nd quest anyway.

As for how did Tingle's influence get from Termina to Hyrule, I guess if there were characters in MM who had counterparts in Hyrule--I'm sure there was a Tingle counterpart in Hyrule.

(Arturo) No, because in Termina there is neither Child Termina, nor Adult Termina, but Termina, since one is suppossed not to be able to go from Termina to Hyrule or from Hyrule to Termina, there shouldn't be no time paradoxes. But some special people seem to be able.... Termina is communicated to Hyrule, to both Hyrules. If you go through the portal that communicate both lands you can finish in one of the two Hyrules. And Tingle finished in the Adult one.

I think it's like this.... There could be two Terminas, one for the adult timeline and the other on the child timeline. The Termina that we're familiar with is on the Child timeline, since MM picks up sometime after Link returned as a child. The Link on this timeline effected Termina, due to his exploits we've witnessed in MM. However on the other timeline, which continues even though Link went back into time. There is no Hero of Time on this timeline, as he's now gone back to his original timeline. So, no one from Hyrule, notably Link had anything to do with this Termina. Who know maybe Majora ended up possessing someone else in Termina (since there may not have been a mask salesman that comes across it, due to the 7 yr war in the Hyrule of this timeline). So the Termina of this timeline may very well be doomed, cuz lets face it...the other Termina was saved by chance! If Link hadn't come across Skulll Kid, he probably wouldn't of ended up in Termina.

(Zol) The Ocarina is not a problem in a single Timeline. Adult Zelda can send the Ocarina back to her younger self.

Well, there is no need to do that if Link is going back in time--not physically but rather by his essence or spirit--I thought people understood that's how Link time travels.

[Fyxe]

[quote name='Tri-Enforcer' post='233788' date='Jun 24 2006, 09:34 AM']No. When Link and Zelda first met in the courtyard, Link did not have the Goron bracelet. However he did retrieve the bracelet by the time Ganon attacked the castle. (This all happens in the 1st half of OOT). As you know, whenever Link travels backwards via the Master Sword, he goes back to a point sometime after Ganon breeched the Sacred Realm. If you ever notice that each time Link returns as a child--he is wearing the Goron bracelet. When Zelda sends Link back for the final time, by playing the Ocarina, we see child Link in front of the MS as usual--like anyother time he travels back. However, this time, child Link is not wearing the Goron bracelet. Then in the final cut scene with Zelda, Link still does not have the Goron bracelet on--just like the first time we saw them meet--Link didn't have the bracelet then either. (I'm watching the speed run video of OOT as I type) That's what leads me to believe that Link was sent back to a point before he ever met Zelda.[/quote]

Well, that wouldn't work with Majora's Mask, because in MM he is known by the royal family to be a hero, so if he was meeting Zelda for the first time, what reason does she have to believing that he's just saved the world? Also, if I remember correctly that even if you have the Hylian Shield equipped, Link doesn't have it after he is sent back during the ending sequence. I think he has the Deku Shield but I'm not sure, he may have no shield at all. The equipment he has isn't important - so they forgot to add the Goron Bracelet to the Link model they used in the final cutscene. So what? Little details like that aren't proof, they're oversights.

[quote]I understand that we see the mark of the Triforce of Courage on Link's hand, but that's a bit fishy. Why? Well, we don't see the mark on child Link's hand the moment he is sent back by Zelda for the final time, while standing in the Temple of Time, we also don't see the Goron bracelet this time around as well as I pointed out earlier. Then, in the final courtyard scene--we see the mark. Why is it showing up now? Can't be because another Triforce part is around--cuz Zelda doesn't have the Triforce of Wisdom at this point in time. If she did, I'm sure her mark would've resonated too--as what usually happens when one or more Triforce parts are close together.[quote]You wouldn't be able to see her mark anyway, it was on her other hand, away from the camera on the final image. Also, if Link returns after Ganondorf has entered the Sacred Realm, they will both have their pieces, because the Triforce would have split and they will both have the ToW and the ToC, so they would reasonate. You can't argue that the appearance of the ToC in the final scene is an oversight and that the Goron Bracelet isn't. For one thing, we know that the crest symbol object is hidden specifically in the design of the Castle Courtyard, there so the ending sequence moves it to place it on Link's hand. It's a specific addition.

[qupte]The mark is not glowing in the Temple of Time when Link is sent back for the final time. There are no other Triforce parts around so we'd assume that would be the reason it's not glowing while there. Then again..there are no Triforce parts around in the courtyard, so why glow there? Try explaining that one. I know what you're gonna say (or something similar)...'It has something to do with Zelda'--no duh.[/quote]

It is to do with Zelda, because as I have already explained, Link has been sent back after Ganondorf has entered the Sacred Realm, so Zelda has the ToW. The lack of the Goron Bracelet doesn't change the fact that Link must return the Master Sword to the pedestal and close the Door of Time. If they wanted to make it so Link was travelling back before Link ever went to the future, they would have dropped him beyond the Door of Time, or even somewhere else entirely, and the dialogue would be different.

[quote]That's if OOT is even the freakin' IW. My theory still has the IW story occuring as stated in the aLttP intro--not the way we assume it should be with OOT.[/quote]That still ignores the existense of OoT in the history of ALttP, a rather big ommission considering it's talking about Ganon getting the Triforce. You'd think it'd mention the fact that it's already happened, or whatever. OR, if you place OoT after ALttP (shudder) then OoT ignores all the events of the IW and ALttP in its history.

[quote]During aLttP everyone talks about Link becoming the hero this and Link being the hero that...sounds to me like Hyrule gets a kick out of hoping for a lone hero to save the day. Just ask the Hyruleans from OOT, MC, LoZ, etc.... There goes giving hope to your troops who are already known and proven figthers. If Link actually fought in the IW story described in aLttP, there would be a statue of him somewhere (like in TWW) or maybe some stain glass display of him (like in MC). You mean to tell me that all the 'hero' gets is a blank entry in the legend of Hyrule's most infamous war? Then centuries later, Hyrule is calling for a 'hero' to save them? I'd be like, "Go call all your darn Knights and Sages to do the work! I'm sure they'd love the publicity."[/quote]

When it comes to history, however, Hyrulean historians and those who study the IW legend probably would not seriously consider the existence of a lone hero, especially if this hero seemingly appeared from nowhere and vanished from existence. Therefore, the accepted idea of the IW in ALttP involves no hero, as such. Or at least, no hero is mentioned in the dialogue, but that doesn't mean one couldn't exist, of course.

[quote]I'm sure they did. Have you ever heard of an army?[/quote]Sheik hops around all over Hyrule with abandon, I don't think Zelda has anything to fear from Ganon's forces. Ganon has never appeared to have a very organised army, anyway, he's never needed one.

[quote]I could say the same of OOT, but I don't usually blow things off as nothing like you. Read my explanation on this above earlier in this post.[/quote]

Oh? Haven't you ever heard of a continuity error? They happen. A lot. The difference is recognising when one is clearly just a continuity slip (TWW's final sequences) and whether one was an intended addition (the Triforce mark on Link's hand in OoT's final scene was definitely intended, else the crest object would not exist in the room and could not be seen using a Gameshark).

[quote]Actually there is a shot of her and Link in MM. Why don't you go back and play. You will also notice no Triforce mark on either of them.[/quote]

Still means sod all, because it's not on Link's hand when actually fighting Ganondorf/Ganon, and it's not on Link's hand when he stands near Sheik. It clearly only appears at certain moments.

[MikePetersSucks]

Second question. Second Answer, what you do in Child Hyrule doesn't affect Adult Hyrule, since Timelines are split.

Erm....that answer has nothing to do with my question whatsoever. If the Child Timeline leads into LTTP like you believe, and the Seal gets broken in LTTP, wouldn't that stop the Seal from ever existing, since it transcends time?

[Doopliss]

The paradox happens in Child Hyrule, it splits the Timeline and... But the Time is relative to Link because he has the time in his hands. So, the point 0 of the Adult Tiomeline is when he comes back from the (relatively timeless) Sacred Realm.

Ok, according to Link the events are linear, but in reality, they are not. YOur theory is interesting, but have still failed to prove it right...

No. When Link and Zelda first met in the courtyard, Link did not have the Goron bracelet. However he did retrieve the bracelet by the time Ganon attacked the castle. (This all happens in the 1st half of OOT). As you know, whenever Link travels backwards via the Master Sword, he goes back to a point sometime after Ganon breeched the Sacred Realm. If you ever notice that each time Link returns as a child--he is wearing the Goron bracelet. When Zelda sends Link back for the final time, by playing the Ocarina, we see child Link in front of the MS as usual--like anyother time he travels back. However, this time, child Link is not wearing the Goron bracelet. Then in the final cut scene with Zelda, Link still does not have the Goron bracelet on--just like the first time we saw them meet--Link didn't have the bracelet then either. (I'm watching the speed run video of OOT as I type) That's what leads me to believe that Link was sent back to a point before he ever met Zelda.

Link doesn't take any of his items to Termina. If he was going to leave (supposing that Zelda would give him the Ocarina after the final scene), then he wouldn't have the Goron's Bracelet.

[MikePetersSucks]

The paradox happens in Child Hyrule, it splits the Timeline and... But the Time is relative to Link because he has the time in his hands. So, the point 0 of the Adult Tiomeline is when he comes back from the (relatively timeless) Sacred Realm.

LINK AGES during his seven year nap in the Sacred Realm. I'd hardly call it timeless. Especially since it changes to mirror Hyrule as events happen. Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are on the SAME timeline.

[Hero of Slime]

So the IW is OoT, but not in the exact way the creators implied it in the 90's.

Then you are still contradicting the creator's intentions. And if that is a flaw in my timeline theory then it is a flaw in yours. If your timeline is valid, then so is mine

[Arturo]

Erm....that answer has nothing to do with my question whatsoever. If the Child Timeline leads into LTTP like you believe, and the Seal gets broken in LTTP, wouldn't that stop the Seal from ever existing, since it transcends time?

I have stated many times that the seal doesn't trascend time the way you are thinking. It trascends TIMELINES. So, if it is destroyed, it isn't stopped from existing. The seal trascends time, since Gnaon is sealed in both timelines. But after he is sealed, the Sages' Seal stops from provoking those time anomalies. Plus, the Sages' Seal is not completely destroyed in ALttP. (The answer didn't have to do anything because I understood another question)

LINK AGES during his seven year nap in the Sacred Realm. I'd hardly call it timeless. Especially since it changes to mirror Hyrule as events happen. Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are on the SAME timeline.

I know Link ages. But Rauru doesn't. That's why I said RELATIVELY timeless, not completely timeless. The SR is a strange thing and things like time, space seem to work in a different way. The Sacred Realm doesn't change to resemble Hyrule, but it's Ganon's wish in ALttP what makes it. The Dark World is then just a copy of Hyrule, we can hardly say anything about SR from ALttP.

Then you are still contradicting the creator's intentions. And if that is a flaw in my timeline theory then it is a flaw in yours. If your timeline is valid, then so is mine

I would be contradicting if there hadn't been quotes by creator specifying that TWW happens on the Adult Timeline, and since TWW and ALttP are totally incompatible, putting ALLtP in the Child one.

[Hero of Slime]

I would be contradicting if there hadn't been quotes by creator specifying that TWW happens on the Adult Timeline, and since TWW and ALttP are totally incompatible, putting ALLtP in the Child one.

My point is, by not having ALttP's Backstory be the same as the sealing of Ganon done by adult Link in OoT you too are going against the game creators original intentions for OoT. But you said earlier that the quotes from the creators about their original intentions are still valid and that my timeline was wrong for contradicting them. You are now contradicting your self. Now you are saying that since TWW makes a connection impossible then it is okay for you to contradict the game creators original intentions about OoT. How is that any different from what I said?

If you are talking about aonuma's interview, I will tell you that I have read it and I know that it does not mention Timelines at all. It says that TWW takes place after the adult ending of OoT.

Edited by The Zol, 25 June 2006 - 05:45 PM.

[Fyxe]

It's not what's said, Zol, it's the implied meaning behind those words. Why would they specify the adult ending if it takes place 'about a century' after OoT anyway? Why would they seperate the endings?

The only explaination is to make it clear that it occurs after OoT and not to let Majora's Mask confuse the issue. However, the fact that this is an issue implies that if it was after the young ending (and after MM) then it would be on a different timeline, or something.

[Doopliss]

I have stated many times that the seal doesn't trascend time the way you are thinking. It trascends TIMELINES. So, if it is destroyed, it isn't stopped from existing. The seal trascends time, since Gnaon is sealed in both timelines. But after he is sealed, the Sages' Seal stops from provoking those time anomalies. Plus, the Sages' Seal is not completely destroyed in ALttP. (The answer didn't have to do anything because I understood another question)

Please, could you elaborte more on this, so I can get the information I need to continue discussing? I would like to know why you think the seal trascends timelines. Do you think that there's still only one Sacred Realm after the timeline splits, that is connected to both timelines, as Termina?

[Mad Scrub]

I know Link ages. But Rauru doesn't.

What? How can you say that? We never see Rauru outside the SR when Link is a child.

[Hero of Slime]

Why would they specify the adult ending if it takes place 'about a century' after OoT anyway? Why would they seperate the endings?

Who are "they", the comment came from aonuma only? I think the order of the endings goes like this:

OoT(child ending)-MM-OoT(adult ending)

The endings are seperated by MM. Aonuma then placed TWW after the adult ending.

OoT(child ending)-MM-OoT(adult ending)-100 years-TWW

It's all clear and does not have to imply a split timeline. And since Timelines were never mentioned by Aonuma, Arturo was wrong to say that they were.

[mohammedali]

Who are "they", the comment came from aonuma only? I think the order of the endings goes like this:

OoT(child ending)-MM-OoT(adult ending)

The endings are seperated by MM. Aonuma then placed TWW after the adult ending.

OoT(child ending)-MM-OoT(adult ending)-100 years-TWW

It's all clear and does not have to imply a split timeline. And since Timelines were never mentioned by Aonuma, Arturo was wrong to say that they were.

To say they specified the Adult ending just to include MM makes no sence, as the adult ending doesn't allude to MM even taking place. In OoT we follow Link throughout his adventure, and at no point do we go to Termina. We see all the child scenes, and the adult scenes. If WW happened after the Adult ending then either MM never happened, or it happened in a different (child) timeline after Link was sent back in time.
As for the word 'they' in Fyxe's comment. I imagine she was refering to both Aonuma and Miyamoto, who were both being questioned. In fact, if you read the interview in full, you will find that Aonuma was being prompted by Miyamoto on parts he failed to mention about WWs placement.

Mohammed Ali

Edited by mohammedali, 26 June 2006 - 06:36 AM.