192 replies to this topic

[Koji]

Nevermind this post...I was way too late in submitting it and it is now obsolete. But you can watch me dance!

*does a dance*

[mohammedali]

Hey n00b, he joined over a year before you did Nice going though.

I love though, how you call him arrogant, but then turn right around and call an elder a n00b and make completely irrelevant statements which I guess are supposed to be witty.

I didn't call him a n00b based on his join date - and join date doesn't make him an 'elder'. I joined IGN Boards many years ago but only started posting in 04/05. I said it because of the majority of the stuff he had written. If he had been even mildly active in some of the debates his post count would be more than 60 or whatever.
Also my statements weren't completely irrelevent at all. MPS, you need to stop hating...

Nevermind this post...I was way too late in submitting it and it is now obsolete.  But you can watch me dance!

*does a dance*

That's a mighty fine dance you got there...

*joins in dance*

Mohammed Ali

[Alakhriveion]

-cut due to length-

Keep the arrogance down. No matter how right you are you gotta keep it friendly, arright? FRIENDLY.

[Doopliss]

So your research amounts to that one quote?  Niiice.

As the ALttP backstory says, the legend became obscured in the mists of time.  Is the young daughter of a sage's descendant likely to have all the facts available to her? No.  There are myriad quotes supporting Ganondorf not having been stuck until ALttP that come from in-game sources more reliable than her.

Why quotes? And I doubt there to be more reliable sources than a maiden unless it's someone like Zelda or the Essence of the Triforce.

[Crazy Penguin]

I just remembered this quote from the King in The Wind Waker:

Long ago, Ganon's Tower was an
impenetrable fortress that not even
the daring and dauntless Knights of
Hyrule could hope to assail.

[Tri-Enforcer]

CP, I thought about posting that quote as well, but didn't know what point I could make of it. Ganon's Tower? I thought that was destroyed back in OOT, as TWW is a sequal to the supposed 'Adult Timeline'. Maybe it was re-erected when Ganon returned shortly before the floods? Or maybe in child timeline, Ganon later finds some other means of taking over the world, and erects the tower. Who knows.

[Showsni]

Maybe it's really long ago... like ALttP or LoZ era.

[mohammedali]

[quote name='Terranix]You've got to be a little older than 21 before you can start calling people "kiddo"' date=' mate. And, as said previously, I've actually been around longer than you. If my post count is low now (as if sheer volume of forum bullshit counts for anything) it's because there's been less to discuss since it was reset.[/quote']
Don't get all miffy just because I pointed out your lack of involvement in the boards in the 1 year you've been here. If you can't take a little banter then you really shouldn't be the one giving all the attitude in the first place. The first post you replyed to me on wasn't even directed at you. I don't have any problem with you replying, but if you're going to act like an ass to people then don't expect them to be all that nice in return.

[quote]So your research amounts to that one quote? Niiice.[/quote]The entire point was to start you off. As far as I'm concerned, 1 quote is adequate. However, as I said before, there may well be other quotes that you can find to verify Ganon not returning if you look. For me however, this one is more than enough proof.

[quote]As the ALttP backstory says, the legend became obscured in the mists of time. Is the young daughter of a sage's descendant likely to have all the facts available to her? No. There are myriad quotes supporting Ganondorf not having been stuck until ALttP that come from in-game sources more reliable than her.[/quote]
There is no reason to doubt the Maiden in this. It's something that you would expect her to know as it is something one would imagine being passed down the family from the sages onwards. There is no reason to go against this other than to make your idea work - which isn't good enough justification. Unless there is something canon that could counter this statement, there is no reason what-so-ever to ignore it.

[quote]It would seem to anyone reading that that you had basically just shredded me.....were it not for the fact that I never said anything--at all--about tLoZ being before ALttP. So, again, you're full of it.[/quote]Firstly let me make it clear that I have no intention to 'shred' you. I come to these boards to discuss the Zelda storyline and see how a few friends are doing. I'm not here to flame. Secondly, I was talking about LoZ being after aLttP based on the box (amongst other things). You then replyed how boxes aren't canon. If that wasn't related to the aLttP - LoZ connection then I fail to see what point you were making.

[quote]The fact of the matter is that there is nothing to explain Ganon's revival. Clearly, further in-universe expansion of the Age of Chaos is required, and I doubt we're going to see it given Nintendo's having effectively restarted the franchise from OoT.[/quote]
Although there is no explination, we still know it happened between aLttP and LoZ. Hence, for it to happen between aLttP and WW is perfectly feasable.

[quote]None of this really connects to anything you've been saying. If you could reword this into something decipherable, I'd appreciate it. And there's no evidence that the seal is definitely different, actually.[/quote]The seal is different. It was a seal so that Ganon would be stuck in frozen Hyrule rather than the evil void of the SR, and it was cast by the Gods after the people prayed rather than the sages. There's little to no doubt that the seals are different.

[quote]Uh, yeah, since you basically went off on a meandering tangent about nothing I said when defending yourself. The original quoted statement is no less wrong.[/quote]
You said that aLttP - WW was absurd. You gave a list of things you felt didn't make sence. I explained how that list is near identical to what happens between aLttP and LoZ, hence proving it's not absurd at all. It's not tangental at all.

[quote]TWW comes directly after OoT. I'd really rather not expound on this at length--it's just so blatantly the way the series is supposed to run.[/quote]
There's no reason why that has to be true at all. Give me 1 reason why it HAS to be a direct sequal.
Though my own timeline suggests that that's the case, I wouldn't critisize a timeline for having games inbetween. With OoT and aLttP OTOH, I don't accept any game featuring Ganon coming in the light world coming inbetween. Ganon has been in the SR from the IW till aLttP.

[quote]And it's easy enough to poke little holes in other people's theories (although you're doing a pretty lamentable job of it)--let's see you defend the truth of your own. Mine has its flaws here and there, but yours seems flat out unfeasible.[/quote]So in your last post I was somewhat OK at picking holes, but all of a sudden I'm doing a 'pretty lamentable job'... fine. I don't mind the quick change of opinions. However, if you'd have been more active on these boards you would know that I've defended my theories from any questions. If there was a contradiction then I would change it. I've admited when I'm wrong about ideas, and that's the best that anyone of us can do. If you want to challenge my theories then be my guest. Just don't get all assy because I'm challenging yours. It's nothing personal. I do it to everyone to help them see parts they may have missed.

[quote]"You would do well to remember that." Who are you, the fucking Dark Lord of the Sith? It isn't perfect, obviously, nothing is. But it seems likely enough. Certainly more so than your suggestion.[/quote]
Calm yourself down. It's no good you having a hissyfit everytime I say something. Stop taking yourself so seriously.

[quote][/quote]
It's great how you're posting more or less the same message I sent you, but using a big picture to make your point. Even funnier is the irony that this picture is taking the piss out of unnecesary image use in a forum. Don't you look stupid.

[quote]Look at the events and setting in the game, nimrod.
nimrod.... ok... that really shut me up... however it still doesn't change the fact that WW doesn't HAVE to be a direct sequal to OoT.

[quote]Again, I'm terrified. Thus far I've seen one piece of sourced evidence from you. And I've been here more than a year longer than you.[/quote]
You've seen 1 quote from the 1 reply I've given you. I've seen no quotes so far in any post you've written. Big difference.
Also, you're clearly not very good with dates. You haven't even been registered for more than a year so how have you been here more than a year before me? I've been here for over half a year myself. Not that it matters anyway. You could have been here since the site started, but if you haven't been an active member it doesn't count for much.

[quote]Again, you're not some some sort of ultimate fighter. I'll happily sink one of your theories if I see one full of holes, but I'm not about to search out some worthless topic just for the sake of it. This isn't some sort of juvenile pissing contest.[/quote]
WTF? Ultimate fighter? You have issues. I'm trying to explain to you that you should be trying to work on theories rather than just arguing for the sake of it, but it's clear you're not getting the message. Also, don't talk to me about juvenile pissing contests with a post that was nothing but. If you want to discuss a topic then I'm still interested to hear from you, however if you just want to continue this pointless exchange then I'm not game. I don't want to sink down to such a petty level.

Mohammed Ali

[Koji]

Mohammed - saying that you're not here to flame sounds like horrid bullshit to me, as you made a point to say

Don't get all miffed just because I made you and your theory look stupid.

And to the BOTH of you - this is a thread about connecting OoT and the Imprisoning War together. Don't use it to piss all over each other. Lack of involvement in the boards, age, or date of forum registration doesn't make either of you right. Seniority doesn't amount to jack - so calm down.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Although there is no explination, we still know it happened between aLttP and LoZ. Hence, for it to happen between aLttP and WW is perfectly feasable.

What are you talking about? Want elaborate, because I'm certain LoZ is not in between TWW and LTTP. I can see why you may believe that, but it's just hard for me to fathom.

None of this really connects to anything you've been saying. If you could reword this into something decipherable, I'd appreciate it. And there's no evidence that the seal is definitely different, actually.

The seals are indeed different. If you look at the first half of the TWW BS, it's obviously referring to OOT's ending with Ganon being sealed by the sages. As you know, Ganon said he would come back as long as he had the ToP and that he would kill his the descendants of his enemies. Later in the TWW BS, Ganon breaks out his imprisonment, which was the sages seal back in OOT. This seal is now gone, ok...comprende? Now with Ganon loose, the heralded hero that Hyrule hoped for did not return. I would imagine that the words of Ganon, at the end of OOT, bore fruition during this time. Thus the people prayed to the gods and Hyrule was flooded and Ganon was sealed away underneath the ocean with Hyrule, since flood water isn't enough to stop Ganon alone, another seal had to be placed. The MS acted as a seal that sages like Frado and Laruto kept intact. That's why Hyrule was frozen or in and black and white, before the sword was pulled, even Ganon hinted that it served as a seal:

By the way, boy... When you drew that
sword of yours out of its pedestal...
Did you by chance notice how all of the
monsters frozen in time down there
suddenly began stirring again?
Do you understand precisely what that
means? ...I highly doubt you do.
Foolish child. While that sword is indeed
the blade of evil's bane, at the same time,
it has long played another role...
You see, it is also a sort of key...
a most wretched little key that has kept
the seal on me and my magic intact!
By withdrawing the blade, you have
broken that seal...

Once, long ago, this land of Hyrule was
turned into a world of shadows by Ganon,
who sought to obtain the power of the
gods for his own evil ends.
My power alone could not stop the fiend,
and our only choice was to leave the fate
of the kingdom in the hands of the gods...
When the gods heard our pleas, they chose
to seal away not only Ganon, but Hyrule
itself...and so, with a torrential downpour
of rains from the heavens...
Our fair kingdom was soon buried beneath
the waves, forgotten at the bottom of
the ocean.
Yet all was not lost. For the gods knew
that to seal the people away with the
kingdom would be to grant Ganon's wish
for the destruction of the land.
So, before the sealing of the kingdom,
the gods chose those who would build a
new country and commanded them to take
refuge on the mountaintops.
Those people were your ancestors.
Hundreds of years have passed since then...
So long as Ganondorf was not revived,
Hyrule would remain below, never waking
from its slumber.

The seal at the the end of OOT was seal of the sages. The seal that was created after Ganon broke the seal of the sages, is the seal of the gods.

There's no reason why that has to be true at all. Give me 1 reason why it HAS to be a direct sequal.
Though my own timeline suggests that that's the case, I wouldn't critisize a timeline for having games inbetween. With OoT and aLttP OTOH, I don't accept any game featuring Ganon coming in the light world coming inbetween. Ganon has been in the SR from the IW till aLttP.

TWW isn't a direct sequal, after all MM and TP supposedly happen in between OOT and TWW. Nonetheless, it references OOT since it's events were so prevalent. On a single timeline, and I've gone over this a million times, it would be hard to make OOT the same as the IW, due to the events of the TWW, and other inconsistancies. However this may not all matter, since the creators have admitted to having several storylines and keep changing them. So you can say the creators once said OOT is the IW, but looking at the games that have come out since then, the inconsitancies and the fact that the creators have changed their minds on certain plots, you can see why that may no longer be the case.

[mohammedali]

What are you talking about? Want elaborate, because I'm certain LoZ is not in between TWW and LTTP.  I can see why you may believe that, but it's just hard for me to fathom.

I'm not saying LoZ is between WW and aLttP. The point made was the following.

People say WW coming after aLttP doesn't make sence as it would mean:
1) Ganon gets the ToP (OoT)
2) He gets sealed (OoT ending)
3) He gets the rest of the Triforce somehow or something (aLttP)
4) He gets killed in the SR (aLttP ending)
5) He gets resurrected
6) He gets the ToP AGAIN
7) He gets sealed. The world gets flooded (WW BS)

People have a problem with this because they can't see how Ganon is resurrected, or don't think it probable that he would get the same Triforce piece back again if he supposedly lost it.
HOWEVER, if you take WW out of the equation and look at LoZ after aLttP, it would mean:
1) Ganon gets the ToP (OoT)
2) He gets sealed (OoT ending)
3) He gets the rest of the Triforce somehow or something (aLttP)
4) He gets killed in the SR (aLttP ending)
5) He gets resurrected
6) He gets the ToP AGAIN (LoZ BS)
7) He gets killed. The world gets peace (LoZ ending)

Everything except point 7 is the same, showing that WW coming after aLttP isn't that dumb a story as it was already a story before WW came along. Hence there is no reason why people should frown so much at the prospect of OoT - aLttP - WW.

TWW isn't a direct sequal, after all MM and TP supposedly happen in between OOT and TWW.  Nonetheless, it references OOT since it's events were so prevalent.  On a single timeline, and I've gone over this a million times, it would be hard to make OOT the same as the IW, due to the events of the TWW, and other inconsistancies.   However this may not all matter, since the creators have admitted to having several storylines and keep changing them.  So you can say the creators once said OOT is the IW, but looking at the games that have come out since then, the inconsitancies and the fact that the creators have changed their minds on certain plots, you can see why that may no longer be the case.

I'm begining to see how it could still work in a single timeline. The main reason I see when OoT is quoted in the BS of WW is that it was a popular game that started off the series for a lot of people. Hence it made sence to put a reference there for the players who wanted some sort of continuity. However, the fact that the game itself says that OoT 'iust one of the many legends' strongly implies that there are other legends before that. One of those could be aLttP. There's no reason why it shouldn't be.
I still stick to a split timeline myself, but having WW after aLttP is not impossible. Having aLttP after WW OTOH is not only improbable given the big changes between them, but also impossible given that the sages seal is still intact in aLttP and not in WW.

Mohammed Ali

[Hero of Legend]

I'm begining to see how it could still work in a single timeline. The main reason I see when OoT is quoted in the BS of WW is that it was a popular game that started off the series for a lot of people. Hence it made sence to put a reference there for the players who wanted some sort of continuity. However, the fact that the game itself says that OoT 'iust one of the many legends' strongly implies that there are other legends before that. One of those could be aLttP. There's no reason why it shouldn't be.

No. TWW refers to OoT because the events after OoT led up to the flood. You cannot rely on the weaker evidence in ALttP to disprove this fact.

As for "This is but one of the legends of which the people speak..." It means nothing. In fact, it speaks about TWW itself. The game IS the legend, just like in MM, ALttP, FSA, LoZ ect... Besides, in-game facts (other than those you listed) prove that ALttP cannot possibly be between OoT and TWW. Aonuma even said that TP might connect to TWW.

Having aLttP after WW OTOH is not only improbable given the big changes between them, but also impossible given that the sages seal is still intact in aLttP and not in WW.

You assume that OoT=TWW=Fact, and that it can never change. But as Tri-Enforcer said, Aonuma STATED that the timeline has changed since the release of OoT. Saying that OoT is the IW just because the developers said so is stupid now. On the contrary, it is improbable, because as you said, Ganondorf has escaped the seal in TWW.

[mohammedali]

No. TWW refers to OoT because the events after OoT led up to the flood. You cannot rely on the weaker evidence in ALttP to disprove this fact.

I don't know what you mean by 'weaker evidence'. A quote in the first Zelda game is just as valid as a quote from the latest Zelda game. The is no game that is 'more canon' than another game.

As for "This is but one of the legends of which the people speak..." It means nothing. In fact, it speaks about TWW itself. The game IS the legend, just like in MM, ALttP, FSA, LoZ ect... Besides, in-game facts (other than those you listed) prove that ALttP cannot possibly be between OoT and TWW. Aonuma even said that TP might connect to TWW.

What quotes prove aLttP cannot be between OoT and WW? I can't think of any so do tell.

You assume that OoT=TWW=Fact, and that it can never change. But as Tri-Enforcer said, Aonuma STATED that the timeline has changed since the release of OoT. Saying that OoT is the IW just because the developers said so is stupid now. On the contrary, it is improbable, because as you said,  Ganondorf has escaped the seal in TWW.

OoT=WW? When did I say that?
When did Anouma say state they changed the timeline after OoT?
Please provide some quotes as if any of this is true then I must have missed something.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

People say WW coming after aLttP doesn't make sence as it would mean:
1) Ganon gets the ToP (OoT)
2) He gets sealed (OoT ending)
3) He gets the rest of the Triforce somehow or something (aLttP)
4) He gets killed in the SR (aLttP ending)
5) He gets resurrected
6) He gets the ToP AGAIN
7) He gets sealed. The world gets flooded (WW BS)

People have a problem with this because they can't see how Ganon is resurrected, or don't think it probable that he would get the same Triforce piece back again if he supposedly lost it.
HOWEVER, if you take WW out of the equation and look at LoZ after aLttP, it would mean:
1) Ganon gets the ToP (OoT)
2) He gets sealed (OoT ending)
3) He gets the rest of the Triforce somehow or something (aLttP)
4) He gets killed in the SR (aLttP ending)
5) He gets resurrected
6) He gets the ToP AGAIN (LoZ BS)
7) He gets killed. The world gets peace (LoZ ending)

Everything except point 7 is the same, showing that WW coming after aLttP isn't that dumb a story as it was already a story before WW came along. Hence there is no reason why people should frown so much at the prospect of OoT - aLttP - WW.

What about point 6 in the first sequence? I noticed that in 2nd sequence you have 'LoZ BS' in parenthesis. Is point 6, of your first sequence also the 'LoZ BS'?

Also, later in this post I'll go on to give my take as of to why there may not have been other Links in between OOT and TWW.

Hence it made sence to put a reference there for the players who wanted some sort of continuity. However, the fact that the game itself says that OoT 'iust one of the many legends' strongly implies that there are other legends before that. One of those could be aLttP. There's no reason why it shouldn't be.

That may be, however later in the TWW they still continue to talk about the Hero of Time as if he was the most recent Link. They even question if WW Link is connected to the Hero of Time. Why constantly reference the Hero of Time or try to connect him to WW Link, when there were other heroes in between Hero of Time and WW Link? Also, King Nohansen reigned during the time Ganon broke the seal of the sages (which was created back in OOT mind you) leading to the Hyrule being flooded. I'm sure he would of recalled a green clad hero of that time period. Even during the time of the flood the Hero of Time was as much of a legend as he is in TWW time period. Heck, even Ganon wandered if TWW Link was the Hero of Time reborn, as if he never fought any other Link since the Hero of Time. (This of course makes me question TP's placement, unless the timeline is split)

OoT=WW? When did I say that?
When did Anouma say state they changed the timeline after OoT?
Please provide some quotes as if any of this is true then I must have missed something.

Did you read the thread about TSA's visit to Japan and his interview with Aonuma? Go read it if you haven't, it's a new thread. Although that article does not say what part of the timeline has been changed, it does say that there have been several plot ideas and changes in general. The article even mentions, how at one point they wanted the FS games as a seperate timeline. I'm just saying that since Nintendo admits to changing things around and pitted with all the inconsitancies with the OOT/IW-TWW-LTTP order, one can't help but to imagine some change has been made with the idea of IW being OOT.

[Hero of Legend]

I don't know what you mean by 'weaker evidence'. A quote in the first Zelda game is just as valid as a quote from the latest Zelda game. The is no game that is 'more canon' than another game.

TWW makes direct references to OoT, ALttP says that the IW is a legend about how Ganon was sealed. There is no proof that this is OoT. Therefore ALttP has weaker evidence.

What quotes prove aLttP cannot be between OoT and WW? I can't think of any so do tell.

For starters, Ganondorf returned after being sealed by the HoT, then the flood happened. There is no time for ALttP between those events.

OoT=WW? When did I say that?

Whoops! I meant OoT=IW.

When did Anouma say state they changed the timeline after OoT?
Please provide some quotes as if any of this is true then I must have missed something.

http://www.thehylia.com/eiji_exclusive_part1.shtml

With Ocarina of Time's release, the development team deciced to make a huge document that somehow connected the Zelda games together, albeit in more than one way. There are several versions and revisions in this documentation, and it still isn't exactly finalized. While it took the ending of Ocarina of Time to get the Zelda team to care about the timeline more than the in-game stories, it took The Wind Waker to really juxtapose how big of a deal just how many timelines, let alone how many ways the games fit together, there really are. Aonuma admits that his remarks in an interview before The Wind Waker's release in Japan were meant to convey "two timelines". At that point, there was a great debate over whether the ending of Ocarina of Time should spawn off many timelines, or if there should just be one.

(Note. This does not confirm the split timeline, but it proves that Nintendo have seen it as a possibility. It also proves that Nintendo had no idea about OoT's ending themselves...)

[mohammedali]

What about point 6 in the first sequence?  I noticed that in 2nd sequence you have 'LoZ BS' in parenthesis.  Is point 6, of your first sequence also the 'LoZ BS'?

No. It's supposed to be a different event. The point was to show it's possible and that it's not unheard of.

That may be, however later in the TWW they still continue to talk about the Hero of Time as if he was the most recent Link.  They even question if WW Link is connected to the Hero of Time.  Why constantly reference the Hero of Time or try to connect him to WW Link, when there were other heroes in between Hero of Time and WW Link?  Also, King Nohansen reigned during the time Ganon broke the seal of the sages (which was created back in OOT mind you) leading to the Hyrule being flooded.  I'm sure he would of recalled a green clad hero of that time period.  Even during the time of the flood the Hero of Time was as much of a legend as he is in TWW time period. Heck, even Ganon wandered if TWW Link was the Hero of Time reborn, as if he never fought any other Link since the Hero of Time. (This of course makes me question TP's placement, unless the timeline is split)

I take the Hero of Time to be different Links that the people see reappear. Hence if there was a hero in aLttP, he may have been considered the same person as the Hero of Time. The other possibility is that because Link never fought Ganon in the Light World in aLttP (the main action was taking place either internally in the castle or in the Dark World), there is a chance that the general public didn't really appreciate the work of aLttP Link. People like Jabun and the Deku Tree may never have even seen aLttP Link. Either way, it's not hard to believe that the Hero of Time is the one they are hoping will return. Finally, if you consider TP is supposidly after OoT then another Link did exist. I don't see why another Link can't exist after OoT and before WW. There is no quote against it, so it's still possible.

Did you read the thread about TSA's visit to Japan and his interview with Aonuma?  Go read it if you haven't, it's a new thread.  Although that article does not say what part of the timeline has been changed, it does say that there have been several plot ideas and changes in general.  The article even mentions, how at one point they wanted the FS games as a seperate timeline.  I'm just saying that since Nintendo admits to changing things around and pitted with all the inconsitancies with the OOT/IW-TWW-LTTP order, one can't help but to imagine some change has been made with the idea of IW being OOT.

I'll have a read, but unless there is a retraction of OoT = aLttP BS I'm still sticking to the original concept. Someone really needs to just go out and ask them about the IW. *hint* TSA, you listening? *hint*

Mohammed Ali

[SwordBreaker]

I skimmed through the whole thread. I'll recap and reply...correct me if I'm wrong. Basically what Terranix is saying is that The Imprisoning War actually starts from OoT and ends just before ALttP. Interesting. And most of the beef that is against this theory resolves around whether or not things happen in between OoT and ALttP which kills off the theory (aka TWW).

Let me put is this way. Going with the single-timeline arrangement of OoT-TWW-ALttP, I think it's still possible that Terranix's theory can work. People will immediately think I'm fanficing but this is a lot more of 'logical thinking' than anything.

It's called The Imprisoning (Sealing) War, right? Thus everything that has to do with sealing Ganon is revalent when taking about it history-wise (ALttP's backstory). Everything that doesn't have anything to do with the Imprisoning War should not be mentioned. If you think about it, TWW has almost nothing to do with this war. Sure, it's an important event, but even if TWW never happened it wouldn't affect the actual Imprisoning War for the most part. First of all, TWW doesn't take place in the Kingdom of Hyrule...and the Imprisoning War as we know is a Hyrulean Legend. Second of all, TWW has no sealing whatsoever.

Thoughts?

[SwordBreaker]

I skimmed through the whole thread. I'll recap and reply...correct me if I'm wrong. Basically what Terranix is saying is that The Imprisoning War actually starts from OoT and ends just before ALttP. Interesting. And most of the beef that is against this theory resolves around whether or not things happen in between OoT and ALttP which kills off the theory (aka TWW).

Let me put is this way. Going with the single-timeline arrangement of OoT-TWW-ALttP, I think it's still possible that Terranix's theory can work. People will immediately think I'm fanficing but this is a lot more of 'logical thinking' than anything.

It's called The Imprisoning (Sealing) War, right? Thus everything that has to do with sealing Ganon is revalent when taking about it history-wise (ALttP's backstory). Everything that doesn't have anything to do with the Imprisoning War should not be mentioned. If you think about it, TWW has almost nothing to do with this war. Sure, it's an important event, but even if TWW never happened it wouldn't affect the actual Imprisoning War for the most part. First of all, TWW doesn't take place in the Kingdom of Hyrule...and the Imprisoning War as we know is a Hyrulean Legend. Second of all, TWW has no sealing whatsoever.

Thoughts?

[Fatgoron]

It's called The Imprisoning (Sealing) War, right? Thus everything that has to do with sealing Ganon is revalent when taking about it history-wise (ALttP's backstory). Everything that doesn't have anything to do with the Imprisoning War should not be mentioned. If you think about it, TWW has almost nothing to do with this war. Sure, it's an important event, but even if TWW never happened it wouldn't affect the actual Imprisoning War for the most part. First of all, TWW doesn't take place in the Kingdom of Hyrule...and the Imprisoning War as we know is a Hyrulean Legend. Second of all, TWW has no sealing whatsoever.
 
Thoughts?

Further to this, a very small number of people in TWW would have any idea what had transpired after the game finished.
Link and Tetra left to find another land, the king was dead/whatever under the sea, the Deku Tree has always been secluded and inaccessible by the outside world, Jabun is fairly hard to come by, likewise Valoo. Komali, Medli and Aryll (arguably the other girls aswell, though I don't recall anything indicating they knew what was happening) are pretty much the only people with first hand experience who are likely to have been around to tell the story.

It makes sense that it would be ignored in later games, since the events probably aren't the same kind of common knowledge as rather more public affairs such as the Imprisoning/Sealing War.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Mohammedali) I take the Hero of Time to be different Links that the people see reappear. Hence if there was a hero in aLttP, he may have been considered the same person as the Hero of Time. The other possibility is that because Link never fought Ganon in the Light World in aLttP (the main action was taking place either internally in the castle or in the Dark World), there is a chance that the general public didn't really appreciate the work of aLttP Link. People like Jabun and the Deku Tree may never have even seen aLttP Link. Either way, it's not hard to believe that the Hero of Time is the one they are hoping will return. Finally, if you consider TP is supposidly after OoT then another Link did exist. I don't see why another Link can't exist after OoT and before WW. There is no quote against it, so it's still possible.

Ok, let me stop you from continuing to pull crap from your rear end. You do it all the time! In TWW BS, there was no hero around to stop Ganon, even King Nohansen said the Hero of Time had ventured off and that the fate of the world was left up to gods. Otherwise the King would've said the Hero of Time returned at the time of the flooding, but that was not the case. Once again, Ganon recalls the Hero of Time as if that was the last Link he ever faced. Also, you'd have to explain how Ganon dies in LTTP but is later resurrected and somehow gets ahold of the ToP again only to be sealed yet again, just in time for the events leading into the floods. This would require serious fanficing without any canon sources that at least may imply this. I've got quotes and facts to help support any fanfic I come up with. This can be used as ammo to disprove that LTTP is not between OOT and TWW. I'll show you mine if you can show me yours.

If the order is OOT-LTTP-TWW, then you have to explain this micro order OOT-LTTP-The Era of Nohansen and the Flood-TWW. Why the heck would people remember the Hero of Time or mention him during Nohansen's reign, but not during the time of LTTP, which compared to the Era of Nohansen, is closer to the events of OOT on this hypothetical timeline? Also why wouldn't Ganon recall the Hero of Time during his battle with Link in LTTP, like he would later do in the TWW? That's just ridiculous storytelling (not that I'm calling you ridiculous, but rather your theory)

Yes I acknowledge TP as being after OOT, but that would work for me on a split, in which TP happens on another timeline and TWW happens on the other. But that in itself is fanficing with no canon support, so I'll just wait for more info to come out on TP. Also, it's best not to get into the specifics of TP since it's still a ways off, and plots are notorioulsy known to be changed or are different from what the creators said in interviews. So in this discussion, forget about TP.

I'll have a read, but unless there is a retraction of OoT = aLttP BS I'm still sticking to the original concept. Someone really needs to just go out and ask them about the IW. *hint* TSA, you listening? *hint*

Yeah, but that doesn't rule out any other possibilities. So you really can blame anyone for thinking otherwise.

(SwordBreaker) First of all, TWW doesn't take place in the Kingdom of Hyrule...and the Imprisoning War as we know is a Hyrulean Legend. Second of all, TWW has no sealing whatsoever.

Thoughts?

*Tries to pull hair, but remembers not having any...grits teeth instead*

Yeah I got few thoughts for ya....

So what if it didn't happen in Hyrule!!! Who the hell is left in Ancient Hyrule who could tell any story about the events of OOT? Uhmmm I believe zero! Especially if you consider the remainder of Hyrule being flooded at the end of TWW. So what does this mean...? That would mean that the people above the surface (you know--the world that TWW happens in. Whatver that means.) would have to pass on the story or history about Ancient Hyrule.

Second of all, TWW has no sealing whatsoever.

Listen, have you really been following the arguments posted in this thread? No one here as ever said the TWW is or has anything to with the story described in LTTP BS! Of course we know there no sealing at the end of TWW, that's not the issue at hand. What is being debated is why TWW and the inconsistancies between LTTP and OOT makes the IW a different event from OOT.

[mohammedali]

Ok, let me stop you from continuing to pull crap from your rear end.  You do it all the time!  In TWW BS, there was no hero around to stop Ganon, even King Nohansen said the Hero of Time had ventured off and that the fate of the world was left up to gods.  Otherwise the King would've said the Hero of Time returned at the time of the flooding, but that was not the case.  Once again, Ganon recalls the Hero of Time as if that was the last Link he ever faced.  Also, you'd have to explain how Ganon dies in LTTP but is later resurrected and somehow gets ahold of the ToP again only to be sealed yet again, just in time for the events leading into the floods.  This would require serious fanficing without any canon sources that at least may imply this.  I've got quotes and facts to help support any fanfic I come up with.  This can be used as ammo to disprove that LTTP is not between OOT and TWW.  I'll show you mine if you can show me yours.

Calm down mate. There's absolutely no reason to get so rude, especially considering you misunderstood what I said.
Firstly, I wasn't talking about a hero during the WW BS. I was saying that aLttP Hero could be considered as the Hero of Time as well. It's a theory. Ganon never managed to escape the SR in aLttP so if he thought he was facing the HoT in the SR then that would explain why he still remembers the HoT in WW.
Secondly, if Ganon died in aLttP, he could have been resurected for WW without it being shown in a game, just like between aLttP and LoZ where he is resurrected without explination. The only thing that seems out of place is him getting the ToP. However, if you consider that he managed to get the whole Triforce between OoT and aLttP when all he had was the ToP, then for him to get the ToP back when he had nothing isn't a stretch of the imagination, especially when we've seen him do it in LoZ. After this point we could put in WW BS with him getting sealed by the gods and it would work fine. Granted this isn't a definate timeline and requires fanfic, but any timeline does otherwise how do you explain Ganon dying in aLttP and coming back in LoZ? My point is that this could work in theory.
To have aLttP before WW and after OoT is possible. There is no proof it doesn't work as far as I am awear. To have WW before aLttP and after OoT with OoT being aLttP BS is not possible, as we know that the seal is still intact by the time of aLttP, and we know that Ganon doesn't leave the SR between OoT and aLttP from the maiden quote. Both these restrictions are violated by WW.

If the order is OOT-LTTP-TWW, then you have to explain this micro order OOT-LTTP-The Era of Nohansen and the Flood-TWW.  Why the heck would people remember the Hero of Time or mention him during Nohansen's reign, but not during the time of LTTP, which compared to the Era of Nohansen, is closer to the events of OOT on this hypothetical timeline?  Also why wouldn't Ganon recall the Hero of Time during his battle with Link in LTTP, like he would later do in the TWW?  That's just ridiculous storytelling (not that I'm calling you ridiculous, but rather your theory)

Firstly, just because no one has mentioned the HoT in aLttP, doesn't prove he wasn't around before. The real answer why he wasn't mentioned in aLttP is obviously because OoT and the HoT concept wasn't invented, but as far as storyline goes, it's not a contradiction is they didn't mention the HoT in the game.
Another possible reason could be that the people forgot about the HoT until aLttP when they saw a similar looking boy running around in the same clothes and though "The Hero of Time is back to save us" and hence remembered his legendary feats.
As for why Ganon doesn't recall the HoT when fighting Link; I think it's because he didn't really consider him the 'Hero of Time' until Link fought him several generations after OoT in aLttP. When he lost to Link a second time he may have started to give him some respect, and hence in WW thought that this guy in green clothes who had killed his monsters was indeed the Hero of Time reborn. This is ofcourse just a theory. I'm not claiming it's the absolute truth.

Mohammed Ali

[Showsni]

You honestly believe that Ganon (and the whole world) forget about aLttP but remember OoT perfectly? That the castle in ALttP is torn down and replacd with a new one, with the windows showing the Sages and Link from OoT, for no real reason? That despite having the whole triforce in his possession, Link loses the ToP to Ganon, and gives the ToW to Zelda, again for no reason? That Ganon is sealed in the SR again after ALttP, with no game or backstory even remotely hinting at it?

[mohammedali]

You honestly believe that Ganon (and the whole world) forget about aLttP but remember OoT perfectly? That the castle in ALttP is torn down and replacd with a new one, with the windows showing the Sages and Link from OoT, for no real reason? That despite having the whole triforce in his possession, Link loses the ToP to Ganon, and gives the ToW to Zelda, again for no reason? That Ganon is sealed in the SR again after ALttP, with no game or backstory even remotely hinting at it?

OK, let me clarify my position on this once more, though I already did before.
I don't believe in a single timeline. I've believed in a split timeline for a long time.
However, I was making the point that if one was to maintain that OoT is the BS for both WW and aLttP, and that there is a single timeline, then one of the following would be true.

1) OoT - WW - aLttP
OR
2) OoT - aLttP - WW

Looking at #1, we know it is impossible as according to aLttP, Ganon never left the SR between OoT and aLttP so the fact he is outside in WW is a contradiction of the canon. Also, according to aLttP Ganon never broke the seal of the sages but in WW he clearly has. For these 2 reasons #1 is impossible.
Looking at #2 OTOH, there is no proof that I am aware off against it. Granted there are aspects that can be said to make it seem improbable, but not impossible. That is the key difference.
Hence I was merely making a point on which of the 2 scenarios can occur. With #2, enough fanfiction could make it an acceptable theory, but with #1 this isn't possible due to direct contradictions of the canon.

However, just for the hell of it, I'll try to answer some of your questions. Again, this isn't my personal theory but I like to play devils advocate from time to time

Ganon and the whole world didn't have to forget aLttP. For Ganon, I take it that Link was seen as the same person in both OoT and aLttP i.e. he was just 'the Hero of Time' even though we know he was a different person. For the rest of the world OoT and aLttP were very different events.
In OoT there was a massive war. All the knights died, people had to relocate... it was unforgetable. In aLttP they were living fine throughout. Ganon and his army never invaded Hyrule. The worst that happened was people though the King was being a bit of a tit or something. It can even be argued that Link wished for the events never to occur, (explaining how the King returns from death, the maiderns return from the crystals etc etc.) so even the slightly wierd things were vanished from peoples memories. It's no surprise why the IW is the main event in the past.

The castle in ALttP may have been torn down and replacd with a new one in order to protect the MS better. The fact that it was found again in aLttP may have made the King think that in order to prevent them losing it again, they would build the new castle over it. Also, who's to say that there isn't still a castle in the old place? We don't know what happened to it. Maybe it was destroyed, but maybe it's still there. As for the pictures of the sages, it could well have been a tribuite to the 7 sages who helped in the IW. After all they are well remembered by the people.

As for the Triforce, we see that between OoT and aLttP it seems as though Ganon gains the whole Triforce. How is this possible? Did Link and Zelda lose the ToC to Ganon? who knows. However, the thought of Ganon getting his hands on the ToP isn't impossible by any means. For all we know, he stole it just before the flood occured.

Finally, Ganon isn't sealed in the the SR again after ALttP. He is seemingly killed in aLttP, and although the seal is broken during aLttP, people assume there is no problem as he is dead. Why would you want to reseal a dead guy? However, when he is resurrected (which is not explained in any game, just like it was not explained with LoZ), he comes back to Hyrule to reak havoc.

That's all your questions answered. Once again, I don't believe in this theory and I understand it needs fanfic to work, but that's better than a theory that is impossible by implication. Once again, this is only a theory and one I don't really believe in.

Mohammed Ali

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

@ Mohammedali

The events of LTTP were not erased from the memories of the people after Link made his wish. The people remember the events of LTTP and wander if Ganon or some other evil will return. You seem to forget that LTTP had a sequal called Links Awakening. The BS in LA clearly references the events of LTTP and also came out about the same time as LTTP:

 
Though you fulfilled the Hyrulian prophecy of the Legendary Hero and destroyed the evil tyrant Ganon, the land of Hyrule enjoyed only a precarious peace. "Who knows what threats may arise from Ganon's ashes?" the restless people murmured as they knitted their brow and shook their heads. Ever vigilant, you decided to journey away from Hyrule on a quest for enlightenment, in search of wisdom that would make you better able to withstand the next threat to your homeland.  

Hmmmm. What tells me you're going to say something off the wall like, "LA is not a sequal to LTTP and happened at another time...." I can just see it happening.

I already said that Ganon didn't even recall the Hero of Time during his battle with Link in LTTP. However you go on make up something that clearly is not supported by canon and say that Ganon didn't respect him enough? Have you ever been in a fight before? I've won and lost some fights, but I especially remember and recall the ones I got whooped by. Didn't I say that any fanfic should be at least an inference from a canon source? If a fanfic is not implied by a canon fact, then you're just pulling crap not only from you rear end, but now you're pulling it from your piss hole. Despite that you go and make up some crap about 'not enough respect'...? Boy please!

You do what you do best, because as far as I'm concerned LTTP does not come in between OOT and TWW! Heck, you admitted that you don't even like the theory--so end of discussion. I will not comment on this topic any longer--it's annoying talking to a wall.

[mohammedali]

The events of LTTP were not erased from the memories of the people after Link made his wish.  The people remember the events of LTTP and wander if Ganon or some other evil will return.  You seem to forget that LTTP had a sequal called Links Awakening.  The BS in LA clearly references the events of LTTP and also came out about the same time as LTTP:

Good point. As I said, I thought it was another possibility but I guess not.

I already said that Ganon didn't even recall the Hero of Time during his battle with Link in LTTP.  However you go on make up something that clearly is not supported by canon and say that Ganon didn't respect him enough?  Have you ever been in a fight before?  I've won and lost some fights, but I especially remember and recall the ones I got whooped by.  Didn't I say that any fanfic should be at least an inference from a canon source?  Despite that you go and make up some crap about 'not enough respect'...? Boy please!

The fact that Ganon didn't mention the HoT when confronting Link is hardly enough proof that aLttP can't go between OoT and WW. The reason I was using fanfic was because you were talking about something so minor it's acutally silly to bring up. Nonetheless I entertained the idea and came up with an explination. You asked why Ganon didn't remember Link, I told you a possibility. It really comes down to 'ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer'.

You do what you do best, because as far as I'm concerned LTTP does not come in between OOT and TWW! Heck, you admitted that you don't even like the theory--so end of discussion.  I will not comment on this topic any longer--it's annoying talking to a wall.

Look Tri, we're both spliters (last I checked), but we're talking about theoritcally all the games on 1 timeline even though it's not what either of us support. My only point is that OoT - WW - aLttP is impossible for numerous reasons, whilst OoT - aLttP - WW is possible (even if improbable). That's my only point. If you don't want to comment on the topic any longer then that's fine... just don't say I'm being a wall when I've tried to answer each concern and you haven't disproven the point I am making.
I admit when I am proved wrong, but as of yet I don't see any proof against OoT - aLttP - WW. And even though I don't believe in it, I still maintain that it is a feasable timeline (whilst OoT - WW - aLttP is not).

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

Although I said I wouldn't but the debater within me won't allow it. So I'll add this.

It's not a stupid question to ask why Ganon remembers the Hero of Time in TWW, but doesn't recall the Hero of Time in LTTP, especially when you propose an order like this: OOT-LTTP-TWW. Then you tried to say the events of LTTP were not remembered because of Link's wish, but I disproved that claim with my LA example. So now I wander once more how can you properly explain the events of LTTP not being remembered, but the events of OOT are remembered, especially considering that LTTP's events are supposed to be more recent than OOT's events? Futhermore we go into the era of the flood, and see that people recall the Hero of Time and the events of OOT; then we go into the TWW era and see that people recall the Hero of Time, but nothing about LTTP.

Then you must consider what Nohansen had to say about what happened at the time of his reign, and what the TWW BS had to say about that time period. Ganon broke the seal of the OOT sages, during this time! He did not break some seal that might of been put on him some time after the events of LTTP.

[MK.]

I never thought of it as in:

ok, seal up the portal (ASAP!)
next, reopen it, seal Ganon inside, and close again.

That makes so much sense!

Oh, and as for LTTP and WW, those are split timelines ppl

[Hero of Legend]

Looking at #2 OTOH, there is no proof that I am aware off against it. Granted there are aspects that can be said to make it seem improbable, but not impossible. That is the key difference.

... It is equally impossible.

Wielding the blade of evil's bane, he sealed the dark one away and gave the land light.

This boy, who travelled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Time.

The boy's tale was passed down through generations until it became legend...

But then...a day came when a fell wind began to blow across the kingdom.

The great evil that all thought had been forever sealed away by the hero...

...once again crept forth from the depths of the earth, eager to resume its dark designs.

Ganondorf returned after being sealed by the HERO OF TIME.

Then we have this.

When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero.

It is said that at that time, the Triforce of Courage was split into eight shards and hidden throughout the land.

It is impossible for any game with the ToC to come between OoT and TWW. In fact, it is impossible that ANY game except the flood is between them. Saying anything else is wrong "due to direct contradictions of the canon".

Ganon and the whole world didn't have to forget aLttP. For Ganon, I take it that Link was seen as the same person in both OoT and aLttP i.e. he was just 'the Hero of Time' even though we know he was a different person.

What the hell? If anything, Ganon says that he has never seen Link before in ALttP.

In OoT there was a massive war. All the knights died, people had to relocate... it was unforgetable. In aLttP they were living fine throughout. Ganon and his army never invaded Hyrule. The worst that happened was people though the King was being a bit of a tit or something.

1. We don't know anything about the "war" in OoT. It seems to me that it ended before it had started.

2. Um... Many people knew that Agahnim had taken control and was "sacrificing" maidens. And what about when the soldiers invaded Kakariko Village (and the rest of Hyrule)?Also, do you really think that the people who knew the real truth didn't tell anyone?

As for the Triforce, we see that between OoT and aLttP it seems as though Ganon gains the whole Triforce. How is this possible? Did Link and Zelda lose the ToC to Ganon? who knows. However, the thought of Ganon getting his hands on the ToP isn't impossible by any means. For all we know, he stole it just before the flood occured.

That is impossible due to the state of the ToC.

My only point is that OoT - WW - aLttP is impossible for numerous reasons, whilst OoT - aLttP - WW is possible (even if improbable).

No. The only solution in a single timeline is that OoT isn't the IW.