192 replies to this topic

[Tri-Enforcer]

@Mohammedali

Just forget about it...it's pointless talking to you. You keep stretching things to fit your views, that's my opinion about you whether you like it or not. Call me biased or whatever, I just make sense. You believe what you want. You have your reasons and I have mine. When it's all said and done, Nintendo admitted to changing plots and have nothing finalized, so no point in going in circles. I think many would agree that LTTP does not happen in between OOT and TWW, but it's whatever.

[Doopliss]

This is where we have to discuss precisely what constitutes a canon "fact", and wether or not the canon is contradicted depending upon such a definition.

I find saying "the maiden was mistaken in her belief that Ganon was sealed from the IW all the way to the end of aLttP, with nothing occuring during that period" to be far less fanfic than is required to make #2 work.

Whilst I consider what she says a part of the canon, I don't believe that a character's dialogue, even when advancing the plot, should neccessarily be taken as fact when something like TWW [apparently] contradicts it.
Aonuma himself has said that there have been retroactive alterations to the timeline, though not in so many words.

It's acceptable to consider important characters' words to not be accurate when other solid and canon facts contradict them, but in this case you have no argument to disprove the maiden's words since there isn't any canon fact that condradicts her.You are making the games fit your theory while it should be the opposite way.

I agree. Having aLttP before WW does seem odd, and does leave parts unexplained. However, we know that atleast at one point, OoT was the IW but showed Ganon getting only the ToP when in aLttP it was suggested he got the whole thing. Even when it was *confirmed* that in aLttP BS Ganon got only the ToP, yet in aLttP we saw the whole Triforce, it meant that there was a whole load of stuff not mentioned. If Ganon only got the ToP, when did he get the rest of it? Why wasn't it mentioned in aLttP BS? Does it not make the story seem stupid? Answers to these questions are irrelevent however, because the fact is that OoT WAS aLttP BS (at least at a point), and hence, these weird inconsistancies in storyline had to be accepted as storyline that has never explicitly been explained.

Please, explain why Ganon didn't get the complete Triforce in ALttP's backstory.

[mohammedali]

Please, explain why Ganon didn't get the complete Triforce in ALttP's backstory.

Look at OoT when it was made/released. It was confirmed as aLttP BS. The information for the game was taken from aLttP BS. Hence, if they felt that Ganon only getting the ToP was still acceptable even though aLttP shows him getting the whole thing, then it is at least possible - otherwise they would not have done it in the first place. I can see their justification as well. They talk about Ganon getting the Golden Power in aLttP manual which people at the time guessed to be the whole Triforce. We then see that the Golden Power is also spoken about in WW manual where it means a single piece. Hence OoT = aLttP BS was proven to be justified. How the rest of the Triforce got the the SR after OoT OTOH is anyones guess.

Mohammed Ali

[Doopliss]

Ah, I see, but doesn't the maiden's comment contradicts what you are saying?

[mohammedali]

Ah, I see, but doesn't the maiden's comment contradicts what you are saying?

Naa. See the maiden quote contradicts OoT-WW-aLttP because Ganon didn't leave the SR between OoT and aLttP if OoT is aLttP BS. However, OoT-aLttP-WW is still perfectly feasable even with the maiden quote.

Mohammed Ali

[Doopliss]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't Ganon leave the Sacre Realm when he took over Hyrule?

[Fatgoron]

It's acceptable to consider important characters' words to not be accurate when other solid and canon facts contradict them, but in this case you have no argument to disprove the maiden's words since there isn't any canon fact that condradicts her.You are making the games fit your theory while it should be the opposite way.

The evidence against what she is saying is as solid as her testimony.
Both are circumstantial, and both can be doubted.

TWW beats the player over the head, repeatedly, with direct references to OoT/MM.
Not only is the ToP with Ganondorf, the ToC shattered in an event which perfectly fits with MM, but the ToW is still with the royal family, and it is explained that it was split into two pieces for safety's sake.
The GDT is present, as are the Koroks who are infered to have been descended from the Kokiri. The Forest Sanctuary is in roughly the same location as the Lost Woods, relative to the other landmarks above water.
There's also the Legend of the Fairy.

...Do you know the prophecy of
the Great Cataclysm?
This is the way I heard it...

I heard that the Knights of
Hyrule were nearly wiped out in
that battle...

Even aLttP suggests that the maidens aren't as knowledgable as some would like to think. They rely on information obtained from previous generations.

these events were obscured by the mists of time and became legend.

Here's what I feel clinches the case against the maidens' statements. Even the prologue of the game says that the precise details of the IW have been obscured over time. that being the case, the maidens are as likely as anyone to fall victim to potential disinformation, miscommunication, or varying interperetations.

While their dialogue works within aLttP's internal logic, they're as much as contradicted by TWW's glaringly obvious OoT/MM connections.
Also, consider that only a handful of people have first-hand experience of anything that happened during TWW, and two of the central characters, those most knowledgable about Ganondorf's defeat, set out to found a new country. TWW seems far less likely to be remembered than aLttP, making it more plausible to come between OoT, and aLttP than the other way around.

[Doopliss]

I agree, the maiden could have been wrong, but there aren't facts that contradict her. It's a simple speculation to say she was wrong, ALttP could easily fit before OoT.

[mohammedali]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't Ganon leave the Sacre Realm when he took over Hyrule?

With OoT-WW-aLttP he does leave the SR to take over Hyrule and hence, the maiden quote makes it impossible.
With OoT-aLttP-WW Ganon doesn't leave the SR till after aLttP. This makes more sence as well because WW references a point where Ganon returns suggesting the seal is broken. The seal breaking is only shown in aLttP and not in OoT. Hence OoT is the seal being created, aLttP is the seal being broken, and WW BS is Ganon's return.
Hence, not only does the maiden quote make OoT-WW-aLttP impossible, but the very fact that WW shows a broken seal from many years before, and aLttP shows the seal intact means that aLttP has to go before WW and after OoT (if OoT is aLttP BS). This works fine though I believe a split is far superiour than any single timeline.

Mohammed Ali

[Fatgoron]

TWW BS says that Ganon was not stopped when he broke the seal and returned to Hyrule, neccessitating the flood, so that cannot be referencing aLttP.

There are several factors making OoT-aLttP-TWW just as "impossible", like ganon obtaining two pieces of the triforce from within the sacred realm without breaking the seal that keeps him in, the state of the ToC described by the KoRLs, and the flood immediately following Ganon's return as a result of the lack of a hero appearing.

[Tri-Enforcer]

There are several factors making OoT-aLttP-TWW just as "impossible", like ganon obtaining two pieces of the triforce from within the sacred realm without breaking the seal that keeps him in, the state of the ToC described by the KoRLs, and the flood immediately following Ganon's return as a result of the lack of a hero appearing.

Fatgoron...don't bother making those points--I did the same. Mohammedali's going to give you a warped out answer. But ask if you may.

[Doopliss]

Ah, so you sort it out with a split timeline ali, I see no problem then. Oh, really Fatgron listen Tri-Enforcer, there's no purpose in doing that.

[mohammedali]

TWW BS says that Ganon was not stopped when he broke the seal and returned to Hyrule, neccessitating the flood, so that cannot be referencing aLttP.

You're right. That's why I only attribut the seal being broken to aLttP and not Ganon returning. i.e. Ganon breaks the seal in aLttP but some how returns after to a world where there is no seal as it was broken in aLttP.

There are several factors making OoT-aLttP-TWW just as "impossible", like ganon obtaining two pieces of the triforce from within the sacred realm without breaking the seal that keeps him in, the state of the ToC described by the KoRLs, and the flood immediately following Ganon's return as a result of the lack of a hero appearing.

The thing is that when OoT was confirmed as aLttP BS (i.e. when it was created), we had to assume that *somehow* Ganon had attained the Triforce between OoT and aLttP. We didn't know how, but at least at that point we knew it to be true as the creators were telling us that OoT and aLttP BS were the same event. Hence, if it was possible without adequate explination to the creators at that point, it should be possible now.
The rest of your points such as a hero not returning and the flood etc. are not IMO shown in aLttP. Hence, although we don't see Ganon return and destroy Hyrule, we assume that it happens as stated in WW BS after the events of aLttP such as the seal being destroyed.
My point is that I understand this theory seems improbable for a number of reasons, but it is still possible... unlike the alternative which has a quote that directly contradicts it.

EDIT:

Fatgoron...don't bother making those points--I did the same.  Mohammedali's going to give you a warped out answer.  But ask if you may.

That's a bit unfair. I'm just giving my analysis of the situation. Why would I warped answer to defend a theory I don't even believe in? I'm only saying what I think is right.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

*The following is simply my plea on the subject of OOT-LTTP-TWW order versus the OOT-TWW-LTTP order* (don't bring up anything else if your responding to this)

If you believe that OOT-LTTP-TWW order is possible, then why do you feel the OOT-TWW-LTTP order is impossible? One of your primary reasons is because of the maiden's quote in that Ganon hasn't been outside the Dark World since the IW. You also point out what the creators once said about OOT (at that time). Just as you made up some explanation that could place LTTP before TWW, what is wrong with my explanation as of to how TWW could be before LTTP?

I have the IW being a different event from OOT, allowing the IW to be right before LTTP without any games in between the two. That way, it sets up LTTP nicely. It logically answers why Ganon would have the whole Triforce at the start of LTTP, without making up an explanation that is not supported by canon. The LTTP BS was meant to convey, that it's event, is the reason why things are the way they are at the start of LTTP. This also confirms what the maiden had to say. As for how does TWW come prior to the IW? It's really no different from an explanation which is explains how Ganon could come back after LTTP just in time for the events of TWW BS, but no that would be a problem.

[mohammedali]

*The following is simply my plea on the subject of OOT-LTTP-TWW order versus the OOT-TWW-LTTP order*  (don't bring up anything else if your responding to this)
 
If you believe that OOT-LTTP-TWW order is possible, then why do you feel the OOT-TWW-LTTP order is impossible?  One of your primary reasons is because of the maiden's quote in that Ganon hasn't been outside the Dark World since the IW.  You also point out what the creators once said about OOT (at that time).  Just as you made up some explanation that could place LTTP before TWW, what is wrong with my explanation as of to how TWW could be before LTTP?
 
I have the IW being a different event from OOT, allowing the IW to be right before LTTP without any games in between the two.  That way, it sets up LTTP nicely.  It logically answers why Ganon would have the whole Triforce at the start of LTTP, without making up an explanation that is not supported by canon.  The LTTP BS was meant to convey, that it's event, is the reason why things are the way they are at the start of LTTP.  This also confirms what the maiden had to say.  As for how does TWW come prior to the IW?  It's really no different from an explanation which is explains how Ganon could come back after LTTP just in time for the events of TWW BS, but no that would be a problem.

I was only talking about OoT-WW-aLttP being impossible if OoT was aLttP BS. If you are not taking OoT to be aLttP BS then it would indeed be possible. I only made the point in responce to Shownshis proof by elimination some several pages back. There he was showing that both OoT-aLttP-WW and OoT-WW-aLttP were impossible if OoT = aLttP BS. I was simply pointing out that altought I agree OoT-WW-aLttP would be impossible, OoT-aLttP-WW would not.
However, once again, if you are not accepting OoT as aLttP BS then OoT-WW-aLttP could indeed work.

Mohammed Ali

[Fatgoron]

You're right. That's why I only attribut the seal being broken to aLttP and not Ganon returning. i.e. Ganon breaks the seal in aLttP but some how returns after to a world where there is no seal as it was broken in aLttP.

This series of events seems too non-sequitor for me.

And then came a day when a fell wind began to blow across the kingdom, and the great evil once again crept forth from the depths of the earth. The people believed that the Hero of Time would again come to save them. But the hero did not appear...

TWW prologue puts Ganon's return within a very specific context. No other events are mentioned between the HoT's victory, and the return of Ganondorf. I won't say nothing could possibly happen inbetween, and it would be superfluous to mention anything else, save for the fact that it's presenting events in a logical order. It doesn't make any sense to reference the IW, then skip ahead past one or more Links to a point where Ganon returns.

The thing is that when OoT was confirmed as aLttP BS (i.e. when it was created), we had to assume that *somehow* Ganon had attained the Triforce between OoT and aLttP. We didn't know how, but at least at that point we knew it to be true as the creators were telling us that OoT and aLttP BS were the same event. Hence, if it was possible without adequate explination to the creators at that point, it should be possible now.

That depends upon the reasoning of the creators. The idea holds up fine if they had not considered the possibility of explaining it, but since then we have had several statements made about clearing up the inconsistencies in the timeline, and acknowledgements of its importance to the fans.
The assumptions resulting from inconsistencies were a neccessity at that point, but they have become less so now. While TWW doesn't perfectly explain the transition from OoT to aLttP it does seem to be one part of the on-going explanation.

The rest of your points such as a hero not returning and the flood etc. are not IMO shown in aLttP. Hence, although we don't see Ganon return and destroy Hyrule, we assume that it happens as stated in WW BS after the events of aLttP such as the seal being destroyed.

Since they're not shown in aLttP, doesn't it make more sense to consider them within the context within which they're explained?

My point is that I understand this theory seems improbable for a number of reasons, but it is still possible... unlike the alternative which has a quote that directly contradicts it.

I can't believe I've forgotten about it until now, but so does OoT-aLttP-TWW.

And the Master Sword sleeps again...FOREVER

I suppose KnS could be considered a way around this, but then aLttP has quotes which cast into doubt the veracity of the Maiden's claims.
It's really a bit much to be calling something impossible in terms of narrative order, especially given Aonuma's admissions about the state of the timeline.

[mohammedali]

TWW prologue puts Ganon's return within a very specific context. No other events are mentioned between the HoT's victory, and the return of Ganondorf. I won't say nothing could possibly happen inbetween, and it would be superfluous to mention anything else, save for the fact that it's presenting events in a logical order. It doesn't make any sense to reference the IW, then skip ahead past one or more Links to a point where Ganon returns.

2 things about this. If there was a Link inbetween OoT Link and WW Link, he might not have been mentioned. As said in the game, OoT is 'but one of the legends'. Also, aLttP Links mission was a lot less important as far as the people are concerned (i.e. no wars, no floods hence less likely to remember). All-in-all, there's no reason to believe that WW BS doesn't allow things to happen inbetween OoT and WW, particularly aLttP.
Alternatively, if you take aLttP to also be the Hero of Time (as far as the people are concerned), then perhaps it can be seen that aLttP is a continuation of the battle of Link vs Ganon in OoT. This could also work, but if you find it too odd, then stick to the first explination. That's the one I favour myself.

Since they're not shown in aLttP, doesn't it make more sense to consider them within the context within which they're explained?

That's fine, but if you consider that WW BS has no mention of a seal being broken, whilst aLttP does, it stands to reason that aLttP fills in the gaps. This is particularly true when considering that not only is the seal broken in aLttP named the same as the one created in OoT, but also (at least at one point) confirmed as such. If it works in the timeline with aLttP between OoT and WW, then why try to 'fix' it?

I can't believe I've forgotten about it until now, but so does OoT-aLttP-TWW.
I suppose KnS could be considered a way around this, but then aLttP has quotes which cast into doubt the veracity of the Maiden's claims.

I had already considered the rests forever quote and I'm suprised it's taken so long for anyone to bring it up. However, it seems that after AST (KnS) there has been a lot of doubt of it's vaildity. Personally, I still take it as gospel, but as most single timeline theorists don't, I figured ignoring that line would be acceptable at least to them.
The other explination is one that you may or may not have heard of. It is the suggestion that there are 2 MS. One with the red handle (aLttP), and the other with the blue handle (OoT and aLttP). However, again, I find this idea a little odd and it's not one I personally endorse.

It's really a bit much to be calling something impossible in terms of narrative order, especially given Aonuma's admissions about the state of the timeline.

Regardless of Aonumas statement, it's indeniable that some games have to come in a certain order in respect to others. Just because there are a few different alternatives to how the games can mesh together, does not mean that any permutation can be argued as feasable. To place FSA before TMC for example would be flat out incorrect. Similarly with aLttP coming after LoZ or AoL and so on.
Hence, although Aonuma has suggested no specific timeline is concrete at the moment, it is by no means the case that all timelines are possible.

Mohammed Ali

[Hero of Slime]

The reason that no games come between OoT and TWW is that the Triforce positions match up fairly well. Ganon has has the Triforce of Power at the end of OoT which he has at the begining of TWW. The Hero of Time had the Triforce of Courage at the end of OoT and TWW explains how the Triforce of Courage went from the Hero of Time to where it is in TWW. Zelda has the Triforce of Wisdom at the end of OoT and TWW explains how the Triforce of Wisdom was passed through the Royal family members. There is no way for ALttP to come between OoT and TWW.

[Fyxe]

I wouldn't say there's *no* way, but whatever way anyone comes up with would be quite needlessly complicated.

[Tri-Enforcer]

[quote]I was only talking about OoT-WW-aLttP being impossible if OoT was aLttP BS. [/quote]Well, the next time you say OOT-WW-ALttP is impossible make sure you add that along with it. Many people here probably haven't even cared to read into our discussions and would wander why you'd state that.

[quote]then why try to 'fix' it?[/quote]

Why complicate it? Why the curve ball? Why go through some elaborate explanation that is unsupported by canon. That being the part where you mention how Ganon could've come back after LTTP just in time for TWW BS.

[quote]That's fine, but if you consider that WW BS has no mention of a seal being broken, whilst aLttP does....QUOTE]Given all the allusions to OOT througout TWW, I think it's rather UNDERSTOOD, that when Ganon returned in the TWW BS, he had broken the seal of the OOT sages. But that's just me--it's that simple.

[quote]The reason that no games come between OoT and TWW is that the Triforce positions match up fairly well. Ganon has has the Triforce of Power at the end of OoT which he has at the begining of TWW. The Hero of Time had the Triforce of Courage at the end of OoT and TWW explains how the Triforce of Courage went from the Hero of Time to where it is in TWW. Zelda has the Triforce of Wisdom at the end of OoT and TWW explains how the Triforce of Wisdom was passed through the Royal family members.[/quote]

I hear you there. That's out right commonsense. You would think that's the case. The OOT-TWW connection flows smoothly together, without complicating matters.

[quote]I wouldn't say there's *no* way, but whatever way anyone comes up with would be quite needlessly complicated.[/quote]

The storyline, from a wholistic stands point would indeed be complicated. However, it's very simple (and I do mean simple) explaining certain parts of the storyline. It's simple explaining OOT-TWW, without throwing an existing Zelda game between them--now that would make it "complicated".

[Fyxe]

The storyline, from a wholistic stands point would indeed be complicated.  However, it's very simple (and I do mean simple) explaining certain parts of the storyline.  It's simple explaining OOT-TWW, without throwing an existing Zelda game between them--now that would make it "complicated".

I agree, I wouldn't do that either. Both situations are overly complicated.

[Doopliss]

Not necessarily the simplest answer is the best, but the one that is most based on canon. In this case, I believe The Zol's explanation to be the one, anyway.

[MikePetersSucks]

And the paradoxes of TWW are solved with split timelines

[Tri-Enforcer]

If it turns out that OoT and WW are very closely connected, for example, Nintendo will have made it relatively clear what they intend to do with aLttP....

And what is that? Disregard it from the timeline?

At any rate if OOT-TWW-LTTP flow in this order. Then the IW would have to be the event that somehow placed Ganon back into the Dark World well after the TWW. It makes sense and sets up LTTP's situation.

[Showsni]

But then there's no point having OoT as the IW at all. Similarly with most split theories. Changing OoT in another timeline so it fits better with the IW means you may as well have had a seperate IW in the first place. I really don't see why it's so much of a problem having OoT and the IW as seperate events... So Ganondorf gets sealed twice? Big deal. We know from FSA that he gets sealed by seven sages again anyway!

[mohammedali]

But then there's no point having OoT as the IW at all. Similarly with most split theories. Changing OoT in another timeline so it fits better with the IW means you may as well have had a seperate IW in the first place. I really don't see why it's so much of a problem having OoT and the IW as seperate events... So Ganondorf gets sealed twice? Big deal. We know from FSA that he gets sealed by seven sages again anyway!

I think the main point in split theories is not to have OoT as the IW in its entiritu, but OoT as aLttP BS (at least in part). The reason is that it seems stupid to assume Ganon found the Triforce twice, created the dark world twice, become king of evil twice etc. Hence, for these all to be one event makes much more sence - paticularly when we have been told it to be true and there are ways it still works even with WW. As for the IW itself, that's where some of the few inconsistancies lie and hence to have these as a seperate event from that of OoT Adult seal war makes sence. Also note that some people have theoried that FSA is the seal war for the Child Timeline - I still haven't played it so can't comment.

Mohammed Ali

[Hero of Slime]

If you had played FSA you would see that it shows the possibility of there being multiple Ganondorfs, which explains how all those events you listed could happen twice.

[mohammedali]

If you had played FSA you would see that it shows the possibility of there being multiple Ganondorfs, which explains how all those events you listed could happen twice.

So you think that FSA is the prequal to aLttP? Also, does Ganon get the Triforce, create the dark world, and become named king of evil in FSA?

Mohammed Ali

[Hero of Legend]

Also, does Ganon get the Triforce, create the dark world, and become named king of evil in FSA?

Well, I guess I can answer your questions.

1. No. The Triforce is not a part of FSA's storyline. The only hint towards its existence is an ornament that lights-up when Zelda enters a "temple" inside Hyrule Castle after the credits. If anything, it implies that Ganon does not have the Triforce.

2. Neither the origin nor nature of the of the Dark World is explained in FSA. We are only told that it is a dark version of Hyrule. Nevertheless, it seems to have existed a long time before FSA. Also, both Ganon and Vaati can control it, so we can rule out any connections to the Dark Mirror and/or Ganon's trident.

(On a side note, the way Vaati vanished after he was defeated indicates that he survived and escaped to the Dark World. Hopefully we will see more of him in future games.)

3. Yes, Ganondorf becomes the King of Darkness in FSA. The game says that Ganondorf was a normal man born shortly before the start of the game (This means that FSA is either first in the timeline or that there are multiple Ganons). He only obtained his power and his title after he got the trident.

Seek you the world? Seek you power?

Does your soul despise peace and thirst for more?

Does your soul cry for destruction and conquest?

We grant you power to ruin the world. The  power of darkness.

Evil spirit of magic trident.

You are the King of Darkness.

And as Zelda explains it:

Ganon... this beast was once  of the Gerudo... Once human.  He was called Ganondorf!

King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn. The wielder of the trident!!

Judging by all this I find it reasonable to believe that there is more than one Ganon.

And as you might remember, I say that FSA is the prequel to the IW… But we will see in the future.