192 replies to this topic

[mohammedali]

Ganondorf returned after being sealed by the HERO OF TIME.

That's fine. If OoT is the IW then it was the HoT that sealed him regardless of where aLttP goes.

It is impossible for any game with the ToC to come between OoT and TWW. In fact, it is impossible that ANY game except the flood is between them. Saying anything else is wrong "due to direct contradictions of the canon".

Now this is something that could disprove it. Having said that, we don't know how Ganon got the Triforce in aLttP. Hence, he may have taken it after it split from Link. I know what you're thinking, it's very improbable. That's why I don't think a single timeline works. However, it can be argued to be possible.

1. We don't know anything about the "war" in OoT. It seems to me that it ended before it had started.

There was obviously another war after the 'fierce wars'. The war where the knights died seems to have occured during the 7 years. This was an unforgetable event.

2. Um... Many people knew that Agahnim had taken control and was "sacrificing" maidens. And what about when the soldiers invaded Kakariko Village (and the rest of Hyrule)?Also, do you really think that the people who knew the real truth didn't tell anyone?

I'm not saying nothing happened after OoT. In any country there is *something* going on, but big wars are remembered over something like more soldiers in a village.

That is impossible due to the state of the ToC.

When OoT was released, it was stated as being aLttP BS. However the BS talked about Ganon gaining the Triforce and then being locked. It strongly suggested that Ganon got the whole Triforce to start with. It would seem stupid to believe anything else. However, Nintendo told us that OoT was aLttP BS at least at one point... and we know that Ganon didn't get the whole Triforce even if that's what it seemed like.
Similarly, WW BS makes it seem that the ToC was split after OoT, and not touched after that till WW. However, although WW BS may suggest the ToC was never taken after OoT to make the story more linear, given the whole series that may not be the case. It doesn't outrule the possibility that the Triforce was taken after it split from Link, and then split and put into treasure chests. I think this is what the creators meant by there being different ways the story could work. However, I still don't buy this theory. Split timelines are the way forwards.

Mohammed Ali

[mohammedali]

It's not a stupid question to ask why Ganon remembers the Hero of Time in TWW, but doesn't recall the Hero of Time in LTTP, especially when you propose an order like this: OOT-LTTP-TWW.   Then you tried to say the events of LTTP were not remembered because of Link's wish, but I disproved that claim with my LA example.  So now I wander once more how can you properly explain the events of LTTP not being remembered, but the events of OOT are remembered, especially considering that LTTP's events are supposed to be more recent than OOT's events?  Futhermore we go into the era of the flood, and see that people recall the Hero of Time and the events of OOT; then we go into the TWW era and see that people recall the Hero of Time, but nothing about LTTP.

You must have missed the first explination I gave before the idea of Links wish. As I said, the people would remember something as big as the IW where many of the knights etc died, but are less likely to remember the events of aLttP where the worst that happened was some soldiers were patrolling around the village. As for why Ganon doesn't remember the HoT in aLttP, it could be anything. Perhaps the pig version of Ganon is a bit dence compared to the human version - who knows.

Then you must consider what Nohansen had to say about what happened at the time of his reign, and what the TWW BS had to say about that time period.  Ganon broke the seal of the OOT sages, during this time!  He did not break some seal that might of been put on him some time after the events of LTTP.

IIRC, it doesn' say when Ganon broke the seal. In fact, it never mentions him breaking the seal, only that he returned. Hence, if he broke the seal in aLttP (like the game says), died, then came back and attacked Hyrule in WW BS, it would still work fine.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

----

[Tri-Enforcer]

You must have missed the first explination I gave before the idea of Links wish. As I said, the people would remember something as big as the IW where many of the knights etc died, but are less likely to remember the events of aLttP where the worst that happened was some soldiers were patrolling around the village. As for why Ganon doesn't remember the HoT in aLttP, it could be anything. Perhaps the pig version of Ganon is a bit dence compared to the human version - who knows.

Lets say Ganon comes back after LTTP and is resurrected. Then he gains the ToP once again and is sealed once again. Why wouldn't that sealing event be remembered as oppossed to the one in OOT? I supposed you're going to say this event, which isn't canon and has not happened to our knowledge, will be another event less memorable than OOT? If you do, then it's amazing how you know so much about a BS or a game that has not occured. That's two straight events that involved Ganon that are not recalled, if you go by your theory that you claim you don't like. It would look like this: OOT-LTTP-Ganon's Return and Resealing--Ganon returns (agian)/The Great Flood. You see how lame that is? Then you stand by the point people won't remember the events that occured between OOT and the Flood?

In TWW BS, common sense will tell you that Ganon broke out of the sages seal from OOT. It talks about the Hero of Time, then how he helped to seal Ganon away. Right after that it goes into Ganon breaking the seal then the world being sealed. You know good and well when you first read the TWW BS it was referring to OOT and that Ganon broke out of the seal placed on him in OOT at the time of the floods--not some other seal that you made up from the top of your head.

[MikePetersSucks]

not some other seal that you pulled not only from you rear end, but also from your piss hole.

Inappropriate. You're more mature than this, Tri-Enforcer. Act like it.


As for me, I'll remain neutral in this debate because my timeline doesn't have such a problem.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Inappropriate. You're more mature than this, Tri-Enforcer. Act like it.

You're right, my bad.

[Fatgoron]

direct contradictions of the canon.

This is where we have to discuss precisely what constitutes a canon "fact", and wether or not the canon is contradicted depending upon such a definition.

I find saying "the maiden was mistaken in her belief that Ganon was sealed from the IW all the way to the end of aLttP, with nothing occuring during that period" to be far less fanfic than is required to make #2 work.

Whilst I consider what she says a part of the canon, I don't believe that a character's dialogue, even when advancing the plot, should neccessarily be taken as fact when something like TWW [apparently] contradicts it.
Aonuma himself has said that there have been retroactive alterations to the timeline, though not in so many words.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Whilst I consider what she says a part of the canon, I don't believe that a character's dialogue, even when advancing the plot, should neccessarily be taken as fact when something like TWW [apparently]contradicts it.
Aonuma himself has said that there have been retroactive alterations to the timeline, though not in so many words.

Well what the maiden had to say about Ganon never leaving the Dark World, since the IW, is still in the game and a canon fact. Thus there is no other canon source that at least implies the maidens statement to be fallible.

[mohammedali]

Lets say Ganon comes back after LTTP and is resurrected.  Then he gains the ToP once again and is sealed once again.  Why wouldn't that sealing event be remembered as oppossed to the one in OOT?  I supposed you're going to say this event, which isn't canon and has not happened to our knowledge, will be another event less memorable than OOT?  If you do, then it's amazing how you know so much about a BS or a game that has not occured.  That's two straight events that involved Ganon that are not recalled, if you go by your theory that you claim you don't like.  It would look like this: OOT-LTTP-Ganon's Return and Resealing--Ganon returns (agian)/The Great Flood.  You see how lame that is?  Then you stand by the point people won't remember the events that occured between OOT and the Flood?

What other sealing? He isn't sealed a second time so there's nothing to remember.
Ganon gets sealed in OoT. He breaks the seal in aLttP but is killed before he escapes. There is NO need for a seal on a dead guy. Link goes away. Ganon somehow returns and reaks havoc on Hyrule in WW BS.

In TWW BS, common sense will tell you that Ganon broke out of the sages seal from OOT.  It talks about the Hero of Time, then how he helped to seal Ganon away.  Right after that it goes into Ganon breaking the seal then the world being sealed.  You know good and well when you first read the TWW BS it was referring to OOT and that Ganon broke out of the seal placed on him in OOT at the time of the floods--not some other seal that you made up from the top of your head.

I agree with you. As stated above, Ganon broke the Sages seal and at a later point attacked Hyrule. It's really that simple. WW BS doesn't even talk about a seal being broken, but we know it did. It was doesn't mention when the seal was broken which is why I say is broke during aLttP (and the Sages seal braking is only ever mentioned in that game).

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Mohammedali) What other sealing? He isn't sealed a second time so there's nothing to remember.  Ganon gets sealed in OoT. He breaks the seal in aLttP but is killed before he escapes. There is NO need for a seal on a dead guy. Link goes away. Ganon somehow returns and reaks havoc on Hyrule in WW BS.

Why must you be so technical!? In TWW BS Ganon did break out from the seal of the OOT sages.

(TWW BS)
Long ago, there existed a kingdom where a golden power lay hidden. One day, a
man of great evil found this power and took it for himself, and with it at his
command, he spread darkness across the kingdom. But then...just as all hope had
died, a young boy clothed in green appeared as if from nowhere. Wielding a blade
that repelled evil, he sealed the dark one away and gave the land light. This boy,
who traveled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Time. The
boy's tale was passed down through generations until it became legend.

Hmmmm, we know the events above happened in OOT and not LTTP. Then what happens next? Ganon returns. How? By breaking the seal of the OOT sages. I know you're going say "it doesn't say he broke the sages seal." However, we don't need that to be spelled out for us, especially since the above event references OOT's ending. Commonsense would tell me, "Oh, he must of broken the seal put on him in OOT" (and don't act as if you didn't think that initially).

Also, at the end of OOT, Ganon has the ToP and even says that as long as he has it he would return and kill off the descendants of his enemies. Wouldn't this be the perfect set up for TWW BS? You with me here? You feel me? It's an exciting setup from a storytelling point of view--it's a better read.

Flash forward to the TWW BS and TWW itself--Ganon has the ToP. Once again, commonsense comes into play and you just put two and two together--it's that simple. Why the heck would someone think that Ganon returned after some other event, when the BS doesn't even reference the event he was killed in. Especially, if you consider that event's ending (LTTP) doesn't even add up to the TWW's start, but OOT flows in smoothly. Why would I think, "oh after OOT, Ganon tried to break the seal in LTTP but was killed then resurrected and somehow got the ToP again? If you mention the events of OOT in an introduction, but not any other game, then you are not going think that Ganon returned after some other game that's not even referenced in the BS--that's just logical. Telling the story your way is a horrible sequence of events for an introduction.

If you want to go on to say that it's possible and say you don't like the idea, then you might as well do whatever you want to the timeline, but that would be taking it too far. If you want to say it's possible then fine--anythings possible. However, LTTP being in between OOT and TWW is very very unlikely--you wouldn't even bet on it. However I'd bet on LTTP not being between OOT and TWW any day. I understand your point and you understand my point. Furthermore, we both understand that LTTP between those games is very unlikely--you even said you don't like the idea. So there's no point in discussing something we both don't really believe in. I'm out.

[Fatgoron]

Well what the maiden had to say about Ganon never leaving the Dark World, since the IW, is still in the game and a canon fact.  Thus there is no other canon source that at least implies the maidens statement to be fallible.

That she said it is a fact, however she is not at any point made out to be infallible or omniscient. Narration would be different, since that is used as a means of advancing the plot outside of the possible mistakes that a character can make. What she said is dialogue, spoken from her memory.
We are led to understand that she was not alive during the IW, or born for some considerable time after it finished. It therefore stands to reason that can be mistaken in her beliefs about the events occuring between the IW and aLttP, since she has not personally experienced them.

TWW, within a single timeline, contradicts her statement, since TWW is clearly intended to have occured after OoT/MM, with only the events spoken of in the TWW backstory going in between (until such time as further games may be released that contradict the order).

Since Ganon escapes the Sages Seal immediately following OoT, which I hold to be the IW, and the most likely order of events is OoT>MM>TWW with nothing between them at this point, she would have to be wrong, unless the IW is a seperate event occuring later, or aLttP comes before OoT.

[Tri-Enforcer]

That she said it is a fact, however she is not at any point made out to be infallible or omniscient. Narration would be different, since that is used as a means of advancing the plot outside of the possible mistakes that a character can make. What she said is dialogue, spoken from her memory.
We are led to understand that she was not alive during the IW, or born for some considerable time after it finished. It therefore stands to reason that can be mistaken in her beliefs about the events occuring between the IW and aLttP, since she has not personally experienced them.

Think about it, what she had to say is most likely true. Although I don't approve this, but if OOT-TWW-LTTP were in that order then you'd have to explain what happens between TWW and LTTP.

I'll start with OOT. In OOT Ganon was only sealed with the ToP (In LTTP he has the whole thing at the start). After OOT, Ganon broke the seal, then the world was flooded. Later, Ganon is impaled, petrified and buried under leagues of sea. Time passes and Ganon somehow returns, gains the whole Triforce and is sealed once again in the Dark World. Don't you think the latter event would be the IW as opposed to OOT? I mean...you say Ganon was outside the Dark World between the IW and LTTP, right? So why wouldn't the event that put him back in the Dark World, along with the whole Triforce, be the IW? I mean it wouldn't be some chunky story, it'll be nice and smooth transitioning, and sets up LTTP perfectly--without the curve balls. I don't approve of the sequence of events that I made up between TWW and LTTP since it's so fanficy, but it's just another way of showing how the IW could be some other event than OOT and still make sense.

[SOAP]

If there must be a single timeline I think OoT-ALttP-TWW makes much more sense especially if you want to be all ghung ho abot OoT being the IW. If not, I don't see how ALttP can happen after TWW if OoT HAS to be the IW. The IW would have to be second historical event post TWW. In fact, I'll use Fyxe's dumb line against her and say "the simplest solution is the best." Therefore I believe Tri has it completely right.

[Fatgoron]

It makes more sense for me if Ganon somehow escapes his petrification then obtains the entire triforce and gets sealed in the sacred realm, than if he's sealed in the sacred realm, and somehow obtains the triforce from the light-world.

The second sealing could very well be a different IW. Since I'm trying to create a coherent single timeline I'm more than happy to entertain the possibility of implied retcons. You can see from my sig that my current theory is incomplete with "something" representing the escape from the Four Sword and the subsequent Sealing in the SR with the Triforce.
(before anyone asks, I'm relying on the re-releases of LoZ/aLttP overwriting the older versions in order to have LoZ/AoL before aLttP)

I'm also taking into consideration any interviews in which Aonuma and the other development staff haven't been directly contradicted, hence TMC/FS being first, meaning I'm likely to consider OoT to be the IW until I see something really concrete pointing the other way.

For me, there are just too many links between OoT and TWW to have anything in between. The BS, the locations of each Triforce piece, and the constant references to the HoT have pretty much cemented it as a direct sequel to OoT/MM [at present], in my mind.

The GDT's plan does offer adequate explanation as to how the great sea could be drained after the game, IMO. Whereas I don't see how the ToC could split when Link leaves Hyrule, then be reunited for aLttP, then split again and scattered throughout Hyrule in the same manner it was the first time, without having some kind of fanfiction explaining it.

Another reason I put aLttP after TWW is the much debated "master sword sleeps again, forever" line. I'm still uncertain what to make of KnS, which would reverse my opinion of the narration if I were convinced to accept it as canon. (I really hope TSA brings/brought this up with Aonuma)

To put the things I've said in the right context, I don't believe that there is any possibility of a working coherent timeline, single or split, right now. Every single one requires some degree of fanfic or interperetation, or selective reasoning.

[mohammedali]

Why must you be so technical!?  In TWW BS Ganon did break out from the seal of the OOT sages.

I'm not saying Ganon didn't break the seal after OoT, just that the point where the seal was broken was during aLttP.

Hmmmm, we know the events above happened in OOT and not LTTP.  Then what happens next? Ganon returns. How? By breaking the seal of the OOT sages.  I know you're going say "it doesn't say he broke the sages seal."  However, we don't need that to be spelled out for us, especially since the above event references OOT's ending.  Commonsense would tell me, "Oh, he must of broken the seal put on him in OOT" (and don't act as if you didn't think that initially).  

Of course I thought that initially, but my point is that if we see Ganon break the seal in aLttP, we know aLttP is after OoT (i.e. the seal), and we know WW is after the seal was broken, then it figures aLttP is inbetween OoT and WW.

Also, at the end of OOT, Ganon has the ToP and even says that as long as he has it he would return and kill off the descendants of his enemies.  Wouldn't this be the perfect set up for TWW BS?  You with me here? You feel me?  It's an exciting setup from a storytelling point of view--it's a better read.  

What you're saying is flawed. Ganon talks about killing desendants but he himself says that he doesn't want to kill them, but take the Triforce. He only wants to kill them after they screw it all up for him. Hence, the OoT statement doesn't match WW at all.

Flash forward to the TWW BS and TWW itself--Ganon has the ToP.  Once again, commonsense comes into play and you just put two and two together--it's that simple.  Why the heck would someone think that Ganon returned after some other event, when the BS doesn't even reference the event he was killed in.  Especially, if you consider that event's ending (LTTP) doesn't even add up to the TWW's start, but OOT flows in smoothly.  Why would I think, "oh after OOT, Ganon tried to break the seal in LTTP but was killed then resurrected and somehow got the ToP again?  If you mention the events of OOT in an introduction, but not any other game, then you are not going think that Ganon returned after some other game that's not even referenced in the BS--that's just logical.  Telling the story your way is a horrible sequence of events for an introduction.

I agree. Having aLttP before WW does seem odd, and does leave parts unexplained. However, we know that atleast at one point, OoT was the IW but showed Ganon getting only the ToP when in aLttP it was suggested he got the whole thing. Even when it was *confirmed* that in aLttP BS Ganon got only the ToP, yet in aLttP we saw the whole Triforce, it meant that there was a whole load of stuff not mentioned. If Ganon only got the ToP, when did he get the rest of it? Why wasn't it mentioned in aLttP BS? Does it not make the story seem stupid? Answers to these questions are irrelevent however, because the fact is that OoT WAS aLttP BS (at least at a point), and hence, these weird inconsistancies in storyline had to be accepted as storyline that has never explicitly been explained.
Similarly with WW we see that having aLttP before it means certain things happened that we haven't heard about before. However, just like Ganon aquiring the ToW and ToC between OoT and aLttP, it's still possible even if it wasn't explained.
Hence, even if you think that this version of the storyline is complicated, note that similar things to this have been done before. If you think that this version fo the storyline is improbable, note that it's better than the alternative (OoT - WW - aLttP) which was impossible.

If you want to go on to say that it's possible and say you don't like the idea, then you might as well do whatever you want to the timeline, but that would be taking it too far.  If you want to say it's possible then fine--anythings possible.  However, LTTP being in between OOT and TWW is very very unlikely--you wouldn't even bet on it.  However I'd bet on LTTP not being between OOT and TWW any day.  I understand your point and you understand my point.  Furthermore, we both understand that LTTP between those games is very unlikely--you even said you don't like the idea.  So there's no point in discussing something we both don't really believe in.  I'm out.

I don't see how any single timeline would work. However, I was simply defending a possible avenue of how a single could work and how it couldn't work. I was saying little else.

Mohammed Ali

[Showsni]

The seal isn't actually broken in ALttP though. Even right at the end, there's still no way of getting to the light world from the dark world without Link's magic mirror.
In any case, there are a lot of things that don't quite fit in OoT-ALttP-TWW (or don't fit at all) and a lot of inconsistencies between OoT and IW still. It would be a lot simpler to have OoT and IW as seperate events, and thus remove every canon inconsistency with one fell swoop...

[mohammedali]

Oh, don't give me that "miffy" nonsense.  I'm not in the least bit "miffy" and you know it.  Trying to make people look like they're hysterical dosen't do anything for the topic at hand.
And while it's besides the point, I should point out I've been here well over a year.  The boards were reset or changed or something at one point.  I have been less active here since then.
I do believe it was you that erupted into bitchiness first having started out perfectly reasonable and then taking exception to my persisting in disagreeing with you.

I'm not going to continue with this because it doesn't add to the topic at all and I really couldn't care less about making people look hysterical or whatever. If you want to continue to get over-excited by my posts then I will simply not respond to what you write.

Ditto?  And I hardly see why I shouldn't be allowed to post in my own topic, how ever far off the rails you've succeeded in taking it.

As I said before, feel free to post, but if you act irritating on the boards then expect people to get irritated when they reply.

I was simply pointing out their not being canon.  I do think it's up in the air as to where tLoZ should be placed, but that wasn't the point I was making.

I really don't see that there's been incontravertable that tLoZ is the sequel of ALttP.  It seems the most likely out of a series of unlikely combinations fitting the first two games into the timeline at the moment, yes, but I don't believe Nintendo has as yet really put them anywhere.  Given some details emerging from TSA's interview with Aonuma I'm starting to think that they might be about to go into an unexpected direction with the FS series and these two games.

It's confirmed in the Jap manual as well, so if you hold that as non-canon as well then it's going to be very difficult to place games anywhere in the timeline.

It's highly improbable, though.

OoT - aLttP - WW may indeed be improbable, but from the maiden quote we know OoT - WW - aLttP is impossible.

Direct was poor word choice on my part, as it is not "direct" in the sense that MM was.  Tracing a line through the games, though, it is perfectly clear to me that TWW is supposed to follow OoT.  TP seems to be going to come out in between--this should go to some lengths to solidifying this, so to me debating how it's possible to fit x or y game in there at the moment when it's fairly certain the theory is going to be redundant as soon as TP is released is a waste of time.

Fair enough. However, can you then give a reason why another game absolutely can not go between OoT and WW. In fact, you even accept that TP could go inbetween when before you were saying that no major events occur between OoT and WW. You lacked consistency.

Well I don't think this has to be the case any more than you think TWW has to be a follow-up of OoT's events.  Shall we agree to disagree?

I'm not disagreeing with anything from the canon. If you want to ignore the canon, it's up to you, but it means the timeline you make would be significantly flawed because of it.

The last theory I can see that you've made a thread of was was that one about TP being the Fierce Wars several pages back.  This seems to be have been incorrect.
If you've another theory, though, please, direct me to it.  There seems to be one down there in your sig, but no thread that I can see.  I'd be interested to read it.

That was a prediction/guess more than a theory. I'll edit this post with a link to one of my theories soon.

Later half of the post

Again, less of these needless remarks. If you really didn't care, you wouldn't respond to each line I posted.

Mohammed Ali

[mohammedali]

The seal isn't actually broken in ALttP though. Even right at the end, there's still no way of getting to the light world from the dark world without Link's magic mirror.

The seal is stated as being broken in the game. Just because Link has to travel between the worlds still, doesn't mean that the initial seal that stopped Ganon invading isn't broken.

In any case, there are a lot of things that don't quite fit in OoT-ALttP-TWW (or don't fit at all) and a lot of inconsistencies between OoT and IW still. It would be a lot simpler to have OoT and IW as seperate events, and thus remove every canon inconsistency with one fell swoop...

Regardless of any inconsistancies there may be between OoT and aLttP BS it is still a fact that at least at one point (if not still now) the link between them was true. Hence if the inconsistancies were acceptable then, then they should be acceptable now. As for canon inconsistancies that there are, the fact is that there isn't anything even mildly substantial. In the largest thread on this board we talked about every possible inconsistancy but no one managed to come up with anything that I could resolve. Hence to claim there are inconsistancies that need to be removed is, as far as I am concerned, untrue. Please revisit that thread, and if there is anything not mentioned there that you feel is relevent, then raise it in either this thread or the other.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

Of course I thought that initially, but my point is that if we see Ganon break the seal in aLttP, we know aLttP is after OoT (i.e. the seal), and we know WW is after the seal was broken, then it figures aLttP is inbetween OoT and WW.

Uhmm no. I would figure that TWW is after the ONLY game it's backstory is referencing--OOT.

What you're saying is flawed. Ganon talks about killing desendants but he himself says that he doesn't want to kill them, but take the Triforce. He only wants to kill them after they screw it all up for him. Hence, the OoT statement doesn't match WW at all.

Don't match at all? Is that all you have for that? OMG, I can't believe you just used that poor example! How could you!? You really trust Ganon would've let them live? That is so ridiculous. Ganon is Ganon, right? The Ganon of OOT is the same Ganon of LTTP and TWW, right? So why wouldn't he still want to kill off the OOT sage descendants? Also, Laruto and Fado (who were sages) are dead in TWW, one of them even said, "...Ganon did this to me."

I agree. Having aLttP before WW does seem odd, and does leave parts unexplained. However, we know that atleast at one point, OoT was the IW but showed Ganon getting only the ToP when in aLttP it was suggested he got the whole thing. Even when it was *confirmed* that in aLttP BS Ganon got only the ToP, yet in aLttP we saw the whole Triforce, it meant that there was a whole load of stuff not mentioned. If Ganon only got the ToP, when did he get the rest of it? Why wasn't it mentioned in aLttP BS? Does it not make the story seem stupid? Answers to these questions are irrelevent however, because the fact is that OoT WAS aLttP BS (at least at a point), and hence, these weird inconsistancies in storyline had to be accepted as storyline that has never explicitly been explained.
Similarly with WW we see that having aLttP before it means certain things happened that we haven't heard about before. However, just like Ganon aquiring the ToW and ToC between OoT and aLttP, it's still possible even if it wasn't explained.
Hence, even if you think that this version of the storyline is complicated, note that similar things to this have been done before. If you think that this version fo the storyline is improbable, note that it's better than the alternative (OoT - WW - aLttP) which was impossible.

Yes, but at least if you put it in the way I described it--it makes the most sense! Also the question isn't is it possible or impossible but more so, what's most likely.

I don't see how any single timeline would work. However, I was simply defending a possible avenue of how a single could work and how it couldn't work. I was saying little else.

It can still work, especially my way--which is the most logical. Fanfic shouldn't make it impossible. Fanfic and lack of canon sources to inference makes it less likely. I think the examples me and you have posed are less likely to be the case, but if you had to compare the two, I'd think my explanation would be the most suited...heck ask anyone else. However this does not matter, since neither examples are likely to happen.

[Hero of Legend]

I just want to point out that it isn't unlikely for Nintendo to make a "new" IW. They have already made FSA, a game that, in some ways, works a lot better than OoT as ALttP's BS. It has the Knights of Hyrule, and Ganon is sealed by "Seven Sages" (Maidens).

To be precise. You can say that the Links became the (new) Knights of Hyrule when they took the Royal Jewels from the dead Knights. Then they fought Ganon like in the IW. Hell, you can even say that they protected the Sages (Zelda) as they (she) sealed Ganon. After that they were "almost wiped out" when they placed the FS in the pedestal and became one again. It just seems too similar to be a coincidence... But as I said before, FSA cannot be THE IW due to the facts that it doesn't feature the Triforce and that Ganon is sealed in the FS, but I still believe that FSA is the IW's prequal. And I don't see any reason not to put FSA after TWW...

[Tri-Enforcer]

To be precise. You can say that the Links became the (new) Knights of Hyrule when they took the Royal Jewels from the dead Knights. Then they fought Ganon like in the IW. Hell, you can even say that they protected the Sages (Zelda) as they (she) sealed Ganon. After that they were "almost wiped out" when they placed the FS in the pedestal and became one again. It just seems too similar to be a coincidence... But as I said before, FSA cannot be THE IW due to the facts that it doesn't feature the Triforce and that Ganon is sealed in the FS, but I still believe that FSA is the IW's prequal. And I don't see any reason not to put FSA after TWW

For awhile there, you had me going. I thought you were going to say that FSA is the IW. I agree with you in the idea that FSA could be some event that's prior to the IW, but who knows.

[mohammedali]

Uhmm no.  I would figure that TWW is after the ONLY game it's backstory is referencing--OOT.

So if TP is after OoT and before WW then what? Just because OoT is the only game referenced in WW BS, doesn't mean that no other game can come between them.

Don't match at all?  Is that all you have for that? OMG, I can't believe you just used that poor example! How could you!?  You really trust Ganon would've let them live?  That is so ridiculous.  Ganon is Ganon, right?  The Ganon of OOT is the same Ganon of LTTP and TWW, right?  So why wouldn't he still want to kill off the OOT sage descendants?  Also, Laruto and Fado (who were sages) are dead in TWW, one of them even said, "...Ganon did this to me."

I'm not sure if it was you or someone else, but I remember people going on about how Ganon doesn't lie during the whole "reborn" reference. Either he never lies or he does - it can't be both. Also, I don't see why he would lie to them. If he killed them he could get the Triforce anyway. The OoT descendant quote doesn't match with WW at all. Not only is WW Link not connected to OoT Link, but he doesn't even mention how he wants revenge to Zelda. To say that WW is an obvious sequal because of the revenge statement is simple untrue.

Yes, but at least if you put it in the way I described it--it makes the most sense!  Also the question isn't is it possible or impossible but more so, what's most likely.

Except the way you have 2 IWs implies that Ganon touches the Triforce for the first time twice, creates the dark world twice, becomes known as the "King of Evil" twice etc. This is not likely at all if not impossible. We also have confirmation that OoT is aLttP BS, so considering it's still possible in both a single and a split, that would mean that OoT is aLttP BS. It's not only stated as true, but it wouldn't make much sence any other way.

Mohammed Ali

[Hero of Legend]

So if TP is after OoT and before WW then what? Just because OoT is the only game referenced in WW BS, doesn't mean that no other game can come between them.

Unless TP is the flood that is. Besides, Aonuma said that TP would connect to TWW...

Except the way you have 2 IWs implies that Ganon touches the Triforce for the first time twice, creates the dark world twice, becomes known as the "King of Evil" twice etc. This is not likely at all if not impossible.

Um... FSA, anyone? Ganon becomes the King of Darkness/Evil in that game, but it happens in OoT as well. FSA also says that Ganon is an ancient demon reborn. This could only mean that there are two Ganons (unless you make up fanfiction). This results in the fact that he would be able to touch the Triforce two times and create the Dark World twice without any problem.

We also have confirmation that OoT is aLttP BS, so considering it's still possible in both a single and a split, that would mean that OoT is aLttP BS. It's not only stated as true, but it wouldn't make much sence any other way.

Using the old interviews as evidence is foolish now that Aonuma has stated that the timeline is a subject to debate. You can still believe in them, but they are worth nothing today. And I wonder how OoT being the IW in a single timeline makes any sense whatsoever.

[Tri-Enforcer]

So if TP is after OoT and before WW then what? Just because OoT is the only game referenced in WW BS, doesn't mean that no other game can come between them.

Let's not go there TP isn't even out. It could very well set up the TWW BS. At least that way the BS will be referencing events (OOT-TP) that fits the TWW's start. The main point I'm making about this is that the BS does not reference an event that occured at the time of LTTP.

I'm not sure if it was you or someone else, but I remember people going on about how Ganon doesn't lie during the whole "reborn" reference.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Go find whoever that was, cuz I'm not getting into a debate about a fictional character's morals. (But then again why should it matter, since I'm debating one of the dumbest stories ever told.)

Either he never lies or he does - it can't be both. Also, I don't see why he would lie to them. If he killed them he could get the Triforce anyway. The OoT descendant quote doesn't match with WW at all. Not only is WW Link not connected to OoT Link, but he doesn't even mention how he wants revenge to Zelda. To say that WW is an obvious sequal because of the revenge statement is simple untrue.

Why did you skip over the part about Laruto and Frado? Explain that genius. Why did you end the above quote as if Ganon's OOT statements are my only reasoning in why TWW is a direct sequal to OOT? Those statements and other factors--that I have already discussed with you--are my reasoning. It's not just one source.

What Ganon had to say at the end of OOT flows smoothly with the events of TWW BS and the game itself: ("check" is just to add up the number of points that link OOT directly to TWW--without LTTP interrupting)

--Ganon was sealed at the OOT, check.
--Ganon had the ToP at the end of OOT, check.
--He said that he'd return as long as he has the ToP, check.
--Ganon said he'll kill off the descendants of his imprisoners, check.

All of the above occured in OOT's ending...now we go on to TWW BS and game.

--In the TWW BS, Ganon is said to have been sealed by the Hero of Time, check. (This is mentioned to draw focus on OOT's ending).
--Ganon returns in the TWW BS, check (just put two and two together, mate, and spare the headache).
--Hyrule is flooded, since no one's around who can stop Ganon. (one would assume he did as he said in OOT and killed the sages of this time period--who would be descendants of the OOT sages)
--Ganon has the ToP at the start of TWW, check.
--Laruto and Frado--who are sages--are ghosts who were slain by Ganon, check. (This is yet a second point that goes back to Ganons's statements)

There's just too many canon sources that you can draw inferences from in connecting TWW to OOT directly without LTTP interrupting. The only canon source you have is the IW BS from LTTP. Hmmmm that makes whatever the hell you're trying to prove highly improbable--you lack sufficient funds!

Except the way you have 2 IWs implies that Ganon touches the Triforce for the first time twice, creates the dark world twice, becomes known as the "King of Evil" twice etc. This is not likely at all if not impossible. We also have confirmation that OoT is aLttP BS, so considering it's still possible in both a single and a split, that would mean that OoT is aLttP BS. It's not only stated as true, but it wouldn't make much sence any other way.

If the LTTP BS is the first time Ganon touched the Triforce or became the evil king, then I wouldn't have a problem with the IW and LTTP being before OOT--as long as OOT isn't the IW--that's all I care about. Ganon also became the "Evil King" in FSA, when he stole the Trident-no body's fussing about that. Also, where does it say anywhere in LTTP BS or OOT that "this is the first time Ganon became the evil king"?

[mohammedali]

Let's not go there TP isn't even out.  It could very well set up the TWW BS.  At least that way the BS will be referencing events (OOT-TP) that fits the TWW's start.  The main point I'm making about this is that the BS does not reference an event that occured at the time of LTTP.

Granted TP is not out yet, however, putting TP between OoT and WW without it being the flooding is by no means impossible. There is no reason why a game cannot go between OoT and WW, particularly aLttP.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Go find whoever that was, cuz I'm not getting into a debate about a fictional character's morals. (But then again why should it matter, since I'm debating one of the dumbest stories ever told.)

People have been going on about how the Ganon quote of Link being the Hero of Time reborn could not be inaccurate because Ganon has never been seen to lie. I agree with them. However, you are saying that Ganon was lying at some point in WW just to make it work with the OoT ending and Ganons quote about getting revenge.

Why did you skip over the part about Laruto and Frado? Explain that genius.  Why did you end the above quote as if Ganon's OOT statements are my only reasoning in why TWW is a direct sequal to OOT?  Those statements and other factors--that I have already discussed with you--are my reasoning.  It's not just one source.

Laruto and Fado (not Frado IIRC) are irrelevent. As far as I know, Ganon didn't tell them he wasn't going to kill them. I never said that Ganon was a saint, or even that he hadn't murdered. What I said was Ganon didn't seem like he was planning to kill Link or Zelda... He even SAID he wasn't going to kill Link or Zelda.
As for the other sources... They still work with another game coming inbetween. There is no reason that WW has to be after OoT without a game like aLttP coming inbetween.

What Ganon had to say at the end of OOT flows smoothly with the events of TWW BS and the game itself: ("check" is just to add up the number of points that link OOT directly to TWW--without LTTP interrupting)
 
--Ganon was sealed at the OOT, check.  
--Ganon had the ToP at the end of OOT, check.  
--He said that he'd return as long as he has the ToP, check.  
--Ganon said he'll kill off the descendants of his imprisoners, check.  

The last one doesn't work as we just discussed. However, I don't take it to be all that important.

snip  
There's just too many canon sources that you can draw inferences from in connecting TWW to OOT directly without LTTP interrupting.  The only canon source you have is the IW BS from LTTP.  Hmmmm that makes whatever the hell you're trying to prove highly improbable--you lack sufficient funds!    

lol. Let's do the same with OoT as aLttP BS which no matter what you think right now, was at least at one point confirmed as the storyline.

- Ganon finds the SR and takes the Triforce - Occurs in OoT and aLttP BS
- Ganon creates the Dark World, and becomes the 'Evil King' - Occurs in OoT and aLttP BS
- Ganon attacks Hyrule - Occurs in OoT and aLttP BS
- Ganon gets sealed by 7 sages - Occurs in OoT and aLttP BS

So we see that OoT and aLttP BS work perfectly. However, we know that when it comes to aLttP, Ganon has the whole Triforce. This is different to 1 piece that was shown in OoT. So why did the creators say they created OoT to be aLttP BS when there was a blatent difference? Answer: There were events that occured between OoT and aLttP. Why were these events not spoken about in either game? Because it would make the respective games difficult to follow if everything that happened was explained, and would prevent future timelines from being flexable. For someone who was looking at the whole timeline and where the games fit, Nintendo told us OoT is aLttP BS (at least at one point) and hence Ganon gets the rest of the Triforce between OoT and aLttP, but for the average player they can happily assume that in aLttP BS Ganon had the whole Triforce and nothing else would matter.

Now coming to OoT - aLttP - WW we see the events work in the following order.

OoT = aLttP BS
aLttP = WW Seal Broken
WW BS = after aLttP
WW

If the LTTP BS is the first time Ganon touched the Triforce or became the evil king, then I wouldn't have a problem with the IW and LTTP being before OOT--as long as OOT isn't the IW--that's all I care about.  Ganon also became the "Evil King" in FSA, when he stole the Trident-no body's fussing about that.  Also, where does it say anywhere in LTTP BS or OOT that "this is the first time Ganon became the evil king"?

As I always say, I take OoT to be aLttP BS rather than the whole IW. However, in a single timeline it might have to include the IW perhaps. As for the Evil King line, how many times can you be given the title King of Evil?

Mohammed Ali

[Hero of Slime]

OoT - WW - aLttP is impossible.

Its not impossible if the Imprisoning War is not OoT. Furthermore, Ganon can become the King of Evil more than once if there is more than one Ganon.

[mohammedali]

Its not impossible if the Imprisoning War is not OoT. Furthermore, Ganon can become the King of Evil more than once if there is more than one Ganon.

I agree with both those points, however we were looking at which situations were possible given OoT is aLttP BS and also assuming that the same Ganon is refered to throughout (a necessary conciquence if aLttP BS is OoT).

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

Laruto and Fado (not Frado IIRC) are irrelevent. As far as I know, Ganon didn't tell them he wasn't going to kill them.

What are you thinking?! What does him telling them anything has to do with what I'm talking about? Why do you make such stupid points. I don't even know how respond to that crap. You are ridiculous! You come here and bend shitt in your onw favor no matter how warped out or stretched it is. The point I'm making about Laruto and Fado is that Ganon's OOT statements are connected to what he has done in TWW and it's BS. He said he will kill the descendants of his imprisoners, he has attempted to do so since his release--he already done it to Laruto and Fado. If he could kill Link and Zelda descendants he would do so as well to accomplish his feats.

Man it is too obvious:
-TWW BS references OOT (maybe TP too) not LTTP.
-TWW starts off with Ganon already in possesion of the ToP, just like he left off in OOT
--TWW mentions the Hero of Time, and last I checked it was the Hero of Time who defeated Ganon in OOT.
--The Hero of Time is a legend passed down from generation to generation. He would've been mentioned in LTTP:

This boy, who travelled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Time. The boy’s tale was passed down through generations until it became legend.

--How does his tale skip LTTP, but not TWW which is supposedly further down the line from OOT than LTTP? People wander if TWW Link has a connection to the Hero of Time, but no one wanders if LTTP Link is connected to the Hero of Time.

--Also at what point did the ToC split? Yeah, I know it's when Link left on a journey that seperated him from the land or elements that made him legend, but what journey? Can't say LA since the Triforce is whole at the end of LTTP. Whatever you propose will be out of thin air with no canon evidence to at least back it up. At least I have two credible sources that explains this: 1) Link returning to the past at the end of OOT or 2) Link venturing off to Termina. Why do I propose those? Because whether there's a single or a split timeline at least one or the other happened immediately after OOT. If you select either of the two it would mean that the Hero of Time left right after OOT--not after LTTP!! If you don't select either one, then it's something you made up with no canon source to support it and it won't be credible.

Furthermore:

(King of Red Lions (King Nohansen))Link, do you know the legend
of the Hero of Time?
Once, long ago, he defeated Ganon and
brought peace to the Kingdom of Hyrule...
A piece of the Triforce was given to the
Hero of Time and he kept it safe, much as
Zelda kept hers.
That sacred piece is known as the
Triforce of Courage.
When the Hero of Time was called to
embark on another journey and left the
land of Hyrule, he was separated from the
elements that made him a hero.
It is said that at that time, the Triforce of
Courage was split into eight shards and
hidden throughout the land.

None of that above quote makes not one reference to what happens in the LTTP game.

 
- Ganon finds the SR and takes the Triforce - Occurs in OoT and aLttP BS
- Ganon creates the Dark World, and becomes the 'Evil King' - Occurs in OoT and aLttP BS
- Ganon attacks Hyrule - Occurs in OoT and aLttP BS
- Ganon gets sealed by 7 sages - Occurs in OoT and aLttP BS
 
- Ganon touches the Triforce but is later sealed with help from the the Hero of Time--this happens in OOT and and TWW BS...but not LTTP BS and not even the game. Why? Keywords Hero of Time

-It doesn't make sense for the LTTP BS and game to omit the 'Hero of Time', since it's supposed to be closer to OOT than the time of the flood and TWW. Why would someone be remembered at a later period than an earlier period?

-The event where Ganon retrieved the whole Triforce is the IW, which sets up LTTP perfectly--that was LTTP BS's intention. Since we know Ganon didn't retrieve the whole Triforce in OOT, we know that it's not the IW.

-If you you go by this order: OOT/IW--LTTP--TWW. You would have absolutely no canon evidence that implies how Ganon might have retrieved the other Triforce parts in between OOT and LTTP. Fanfic should be something that is at least supported by a canon source that either tells something directly or implies something...otherwise it's not credible fanfic--it's something you pulled out of thin air.

Why were these events not spoken about in either game? Because it would make the respective games difficult to follow if everything that happened was explained,

It would not be difficult at all if it were explained that way--it would be dumb and a horrible story if it were explained that way. I'd understand it and be like, 'WTF!' At least the way I explained it would be smooth, understanding--and make logical sense, in terms of chronology.

Ganon gets the rest of the Triforce between OoT and aLttP, but for the average player they can happily assume that in aLttP BS Ganon had the whole Triforce and nothing else would matter

Uhmmm it would matter to the player how the hell Ganon got the whole Triforce if the player believes OOT is the LTTP BS, especially if they recall OOT's ending.

As I always say, I take OoT to be aLttP BS rather than the whole IW. However, in a single timeline it might have to include the IW perhaps. As for the Evil King line, how many times can you be given the title King of Evil?

Yeah and how many times can one touch the Triforce? The point I'm making is that you cannot say that LTTP BS is first time Ganon did anything, especially touching the Triforce.

[mohammedali]

What are you thinking?!  What does him telling them anything has to do with what I'm talking about?  Why do you make such stupid points.  I don't even know how respond to that crap.  You are ridiculous!  You come here and bend shitt in your onw favor no matter how warped out or stretched it is.  The point I'm making about Laruto and Fado is that Ganon's OOT statements are connected to what he has done in TWW and it's BS.  He said he will kill the descendants of his imprisoners, he has attempted to do so since his release--he already done it to Laruto and Fado.  If he could kill Link and Zelda descendants he would do so as well to accomplish his feats.

My point is that he didn't seem to want to kill Link or Zelda. He even SAID he didn't want to kill Link or Zelda. It's just you who's saying he wants to kill them. Also, there is no proff that Fado and Laruto are related to the previous sages, especially when they are sages for different elements, though I agree it seems implied.

Man it is too obvious:  
-TWW BS references OOT (maybe TP too) not LTTP.  
-TWW starts off with Ganon already in possesion of the ToP, just like he left off in OOT
--TWW mentions the Hero of Time, and last I checked it was the Hero of Time who defeated Ganon in OOT.
--The Hero of Time is a legend passed down from generation to generation.  He would've been mentioned in LTTP:

- The WW BS explicitly says it is talking about ONE of the legends, so it doesn't have to talk about aLttP. As a game it would be stupid to reference it anyway.
- The possession of the ToP is the only thing that I feel suggests aLttP is out of place, but as I said, I'm exploring the possibility. Triforce pieces do tend to move around in Zelda games without explination.
--TWW does mention the HoT, though if you believe that the HoT can be another Link other than OoT Link, then it could be aLttP Link as well. Even if you don't take this, referencing OoT Link just shows it is one legend they are talking about.
-- Just because the HoT wasn't mentioned in aLttP, doesn't mean no one knows of him. It's not a contradiction in any way.

--How does his tale skip LTTP, but not TWW which is supposedly further down the line from OOT than LTTP?  People wander if TWW Link has a connection to the Hero of Time, but no one wanders if LTTP Link is connected to the Hero of Time.

Perhaps people thought that aLttP was the HoT as well, who knows. Zeldas quote in OoT suggested there was a legendary Hero of Time that OoT Link looks like. Perhaps people who see this boy always wearing the same clothes at times of trouble is the same person jumping around time.

--Also at what point did the ToC split?  Yeah, I know it's when Link left on a journey that seperated him from the land or elements that made him legend, but what journey?  Can't say LA since the Triforce is whole at the end of LTTP.  Whatever you propose will be out of thin air with no canon evidence to at least back it up.  At least I have two credible sources that explains this: 1) Link returning to the past at the end of OOT or 2) Link venturing off to Termina.  Why do I propose those?  Because whether there's a single or a split timeline at least one or the other happened immediately after OOT.  If you select either of the two it would mean that the Hero of Time left right after OOT--not after LTTP!!  If you don't select either one, then it's something you made up with no canon source to support it and it won't be credible.

I don't see why it can't have split from Link when he left for LA. We don't see the Triforce with Link at all.

None of that above quote makes not one reference to what happens in the LTTP game.

Take the whole quote to be for aLttP Link and it suggests that after Link beat Ganon in aLttP, he was given a piece of the Triforce. That peace was lost to him when he went on LA. It was then split and hid through the kingdom. There are ways to explain it if you stop taking such a forcefully biased view.

-It doesn't make sense for the LTTP BS and game to omit the 'Hero of Time', since it's supposed to be closer to OOT than the time of the flood and TWW.  Why would someone be remembered at a later period than an earlier period?

If there was a game based on the 1980s that didn't talk about WWII, and another game based on the year 2000 that did, would it mean that there is a contradiction? Obviously not, so stop being so anal about the fact that not every little thing is mentioned in each Zelda game.

-The event where Ganon retrieved the whole Triforce is the IW, which sets up LTTP perfectly--that was LTTP BS's intention.  Since we know Ganon didn't retrieve the whole Triforce in OOT, we know that it's not the IW.

Supremely flawed, as the entire point of OoT was at least at the time of release to be aLttP BS. Hence even though it seems inconsistant with Triforce pieces, it was confirmed as being linked. When creating OoT, the team was happy for aLttP to show Ganon with the whole Triforce and then have OoT with only the ToP.

-If you you go by this order: OOT/IW--LTTP--TWW.  You would have absolutely no canon evidence that implies how Ganon might have retrieved the other Triforce parts in between OOT and LTTP.  Fanfic should be something that is at least supported by a canon source that either tells something directly or implies something...otherwise it's not credible fanfic--it's something you pulled out of thin air.

Again, the creators made OoT knowing that aLttP would have different Triforce pieces, but it didn't matter to them, or they must have an explination about it. The same explination would be used here.

Uhmmm it would matter to the player how the hell Ganon got the whole Triforce if the player believes OOT is the LTTP BS, especially if they recall OOT's ending.

Again... See above...

Yeah and how many times can one touch the Triforce?  The point I'm making is that you cannot say that LTTP BS is first time Ganon did anything, especially touching the Triforce.

In your timeline you have aLttP BS before OoT. However, we know that in OoT that Ganon hasn't been around for very long. He is currently trusted by the King and there is no reason to suspect him. He also seems to have only been born decades ago - not centuries ago. His adoptive mothers are only 200 and Ganon doesn't seem much more than 30 rather than anything else. Hence to have an IW where Ganon was sealed before seems impossible unless you are saying that this is a new Ganon. Even then, I don't see why the King woudl trust Ganon with the last Ganon being such a pig so to speak.

Mohammed Ali