192 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

Assumptions: There is a single timeline. All the usual games, manual and boxes are canon. OoT is the Imprisoning War. TWW comes after OoT.

Canon Facts: At the time of ALttP, "Several centuries have passed since the Seal War. In Hyrule there was a peace due to the wisdom and faith deep in the people's hearts."

Now, since TWW comes after OoT it either goes. OoT-TWW-ALttP or OoT-ALttP-TWW. The second is impossible because Ganon is dead, and doesn't mention the events of ALttP in TWW despite recalling OoT perfectly. The first is impossible, since an attack by a mighty evil monster, a great flood, enough time passing for the language to change beyond recognition, then a new Hyrule being founded and becoming well established cannot happen within "several centuries of peace" - firstly it would take too long, and secondly it's not at all peaceful. Therefore one of the original assumptions is wrong. And I choose to believe that the incorrect one is the OoT=IW one.

[MikePetersSucks]

Pwned! Good job, Showsni!

[Doopliss]

You're so evil, Aura .

Yes, it's a brilliant explanation.

[Tri-Enforcer]

'Bout time...it's what I been saying all along. Either OOT is not the IW or the timeline is a split. It's either or.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Assumptions: There is a single timeline. All the usual games, manual and boxes are canon. OoT is the Imprisoning War. TWW comes after OoT.

Canon Facts: At the time of ALttP, "Several centuries have passed since the Seal War. In Hyrule there was a peace due to the wisdom and faith deep in the people's hearts."

Now, since TWW comes after OoT it either goes. OoT-TWW-ALttP or OoT-ALttP-TWW. The second is impossible because Ganon is dead, and doesn't mention the events of ALttP in TWW despite recalling OoT perfectly. The first is impossible, since an attack by a mighty evil monster, a great flood, enough time passing for the language to change beyond recognition, then a new Hyrule being founded and becoming well established cannot happen within "several centuries of peace" - firstly it would take too long, and secondly it's not at all peaceful. Therefore one of the original assumptions is wrong. And I choose to believe that the incorrect one is the OoT=IW one.

Exactly! It just doesn't make sense either way you slice it, so Oot can't be IW.

There's only one problem. Isn't Oot canonically meant to be amongst the earliest events to take place? If so, this puts a nail into a single timeline theory, doncha think?

[Doopliss]

Why do you say that, Wolf?

[Koji]

I'd like to think, however. that Nintendo would be slowly attempting to reconcile the games rather than adding new stories that are completely different than anything mentioned before (Capcom's doing a good enough job of that). It is for this reason that I believe Ocarina to be the Imprisoning War (along with the slew of facts, as well as the interview that stated OoT to be the Imprisoning War). I do believe that there is one more game needed to complete that entire section of the timeline and that it has not yet appeared for whatever reason. I know that I'm going to be shot down for all of this, but I stand with Terranix's summary of events.

[Tri-Enforcer]

OOT is not the IW. The order of the games in question is not OOT-MM-TWW-LTTP. Throwing TWW in the mix really throws a monkey ranch into the plans for making that order work. With the TWW, that would mean that Ganon was outside the Dark World in between OOT and LTTP. If that's the case then you'd have to create another game or backstory explaining how Ganon came back after his double whammy in TWW and how he ended up back in the Dark World by the time of LTTP. You'd think that story would be the event that LTTP's BS is referring to. I think it would be relevant to LTTP since it will set up why Ganon is currently sealed druing LTTP. Why talk about a sealing event that happened prior to the most recent sealing event, especially since the most recent event sets up LTTP? Also, MM's backstory and TWW's backstory doesn't even refer to the events of OOT as being the Sealing or Imprisoning War.

[Chaltab]

Edit: Nevermind. I just said somethign that would require my foot in my mouth.

Just look at my Sig Timeline to see how the Imprisoning War = Ocarina of Time would work in a spit timeline. Pretty much exactly like what Terranix said.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Just look at my Sig Timeline to see how the Imprisoning War = Ocarina of Time would work in a spit timeline. Pretty much exactly like what Terranix said.

I didn't know Terranix's theory is a split theory. I thought his was that of a single theory? Also your sig is like way off. You have whatever event you consider as the IW on another timeline, but you don't have an IW on the timeline that LTTP is on. Then you have LA before LTTP?

[Koji]

A "monkey ranch"? You mean...like a ranch that you can tighten stuff with? Or do you mean like a wrench? Like where horses live?

[Tri-Enforcer]

A "monkey ranch"? You mean...like a ranch that you can tighten stuff with? Or do you mean like a wrench? Like where horses live?

You know what I mean. It's only an internet forum--not an essay. Who cares...? Oh, it's you.

[coinilius]

A ranch full of monkeys... that's such a cool idea

[SOAP]

How about this for a compromise: Since people are so stubborn about the OoT=IW connection, why not keep ALttP on the part of the timeline that has part of OoT that could be considered the IW and have TWW be in the other timeline hundreds of years after MM. TWW can fit in either one really. Makes more sense in the other timeline anyways. Mr. Aunoma is crazy (just kidding guys!)

Infact, I'd go as far to say the FS games go between OoT and TWW as a timeline counterpart to ALttP (which is why everything in FSA seems toi resemble ALttP so strongly). An even crazier theorist than I could even argue that FS occurs at a time in the timeline when the two timeline still "intermigled" a bit which is why somethings in FS effected ALttP and Vice Versa. But after that, the Timelines grew too far apart to have any effect on each other. However, with TP coming out, their might be stronger connections between it and ALttP than FSA. Maybe not.

So, for reference:

OoT | ALttP - LA | OoX | LoZ - AoL
└ MM | TP | TMC | FS - FSA | TWW

Alternatively for the purists :

TMC | OoT | OoX | ALttP | OoX | FS - FSA | LoZ -AoL
...........└ MM | TP | TWW

[Koji]

You know what I mean. It's only an internet forum--not an essay. Who cares...? Oh, it's you.

Hey, you're on a forum where the point is to be nit-picky - so don't go nit-picking my nit-picking (Besides - you actually thought it was "monkey ranch", didn't you? Admit it... Don't give me that look! You did, didn't you?)

Anyways, to you OoT=IW non-believers - you say that it can't happen because there's too much missing. There're too many holes - How does TWW fit in then? How does Ganon get the other two peices of the Triforce? Where's his army? Why isn't the war pictured? Is Tingle the REAL princess Zelda? To you, I say this: Either way you slice it, there's still a bunch of stuff missing. If you don't make OoT the imprisoning war, you still have one whole other game where Ganon gets sealed away (this time with the whole Triforce) that has yet to be made. You still have to explain how the hell Ganon floats his rocky ass back to the top of the ocean and gets some serious surgery done on his head. There are just as many holes in your own theories as there are in ours.

[Vazor]

To you, I say this:  Either way you slice it, there's still a bunch of stuff missing.

No. No. No. You like to pretend that because your timeline theory has obvious holes in it, that everybody else's must too.

If you don't make OoT the imprisoning war, you still have one whole other game where Ganon gets sealed away (this time with the whole Triforce) that has yet to be made.

No you don't. The IW is a BACKSTORY. They didn't mean at the time for it to end up as a game. They wrote it with the expectation that it would be treated as a backstory. Sure, they could make it into a game. But it's not necessary. It makes much more sense to have the IW take place completely outside of any Zelda game. If you do that, then there are zero, count them, zero, innacuracies.

You still have to explain how the hell Ganon floats his rocky ass back to the top of the ocean and gets some serious surgery done on his head.

Wow, you've got me there. Ganon couldn't have possibly been reborn, could he?

There are just as many holes in your own theories as there are in ours.

Maybe so. But our holes are much, much, smaller.

[Showsni]

Or TWW comes after Oot and after ALttP. My timeline has no real contradictions, for example.

[Vazor]

Question, Showsni: do you believe OoT to be the imprisoning war in your theory?

[Showsni]

No, that's why it says IW at the beginning. And has OoT centuries after ALttP...

[Tri-Enforcer]

Question: On the FSA map...why is part of the Dark World on the same map as the Light World?: http://www.zelda.com...unch/index.html look under 'world map' when you get to the site. I don't know...my guess is if they showed the whole Dark World map then that's where that particular area would be or looks like...but that can't be the case since the Lost Woods and Kakiriko village are labeled under the 'Dark World' section of the map as well. Maybe it's just the site designers who got it wrong, and maybe when you play the game, those places are not labeled under 'Dark World', but I don't remember.

Hey, you're on a forum where the point is to be nit-picky - so don't go nit-picking my nit-picking (Besides - you actually thought it was "monkey ranch", didn't you? Admit it... Don't give me that look! You did, didn't you?)

First off I was speed typing. Second, I didn't have to worry about my english teacher grading what I write. Third, you still understood my point...didn't you? Admit it.... (Shakes Koji and demands, "Didn't you?!"

In conclusion, you're supposed to be picky about the storyline, not grammar or spelling errors, especially if you still understood the point. Ok Kojak--excuse me-Koji?

You still have to explain how the hell Ganon floats his rocky ass back to the top of the ocean and gets some serious surgery done on his head.

No need to explain if TWW is last on the 'other' timeline. If you don't like the split then Ganon could've been reborn. Just as he was slated to have done in FSA.

Either way you slice it, there's still a bunch of stuff missing. If you don't make OoT the imprisoning war, you still have one whole other game where Ganon gets sealed away (this time with the whole Triforce) that has yet to be made.

I would imagine that event would lead to the IW described in LTTP BS as opposed to OOT...makes sense. Why mention a battle in which Ganon only had the ToP, as opposed to a more recent event with Ganon attacking with the whole Triforce? You'll still have LTTP set up nicely and the IW being some other event. This would require waaaay too much fanfic to happen....just as it would be fanfictious to say that the battle in OOT is the focus, although it doesn't even set up the current state of LTTP.

[SOAP]

Hey, you're on a forum where the point is to be nit-picky - so don't go nit-picking my nit-picking (Besides - you actually thought it was "monkey ranch", didn't you? Admit it... Don't give me that look! You did, didn't you?)

Anyways, to you OoT=IW non-believers - you say that it can't happen because there's too much missing. There're too many holes - How does TWW fit in then? How does Ganon get the other two peices of the Triforce? Where's his army? Why isn't the war pictured? Is Tingle the REAL princess Zelda? To you, I say this: Either way you slice it, there's still a bunch of stuff missing. If you don't make OoT the imprisoning war, you still have one whole other game where Ganon gets sealed away (this time with the whole Triforce) that has yet to be made. You still have to explain how the hell Ganon floats his rocky ass back to the top of the ocean and gets some serious surgery done on his head. There are just as many holes in your own theories as there are in ours.

Why are you assuming everyone who doesn;t believe in the OoT=IW connection is using a Single Timeline?

[Vazor]

The fact is, it doesn't matter if you believe in a single timeline, a split timeline, a multiple timeline, or whatever, the fact is that OoT can't possibly be the IW. In-game inconsistancies completely destroy the theory's veracity.

[Koji]

*giggles about the Kojak line*

I personally don't like messing with multiple timelines - that's my bad for trying to argue a point still using part of my own opinion. So you've got me on that one, soap. Part of the same goes for Tri-Enforcers response to my post. I'm more of a fan of peicing things together with what they've given me rather than assuming there's more and just waiting for that. Does that mean I could be oh so utterly wrong (as many of you seem to believe)? Yes, it most certainly does. It doesn't garuntee that I'm wrong, however (and that's what I'm attempting to hold on to).

And as far as the FSA site goes - it's possible that the site designers got it wrong in an attempt to make the map look prettier. *shrugs* I've never spent much time on official Nintendo sites.

P.S. Where's Terranix? This is his argument I'm trying to hold up (poorly)...I'd like a little help.

[SOAP]

Well Vazor, inconsistencies will exist no matter what. The point I'm trying to make though is I don't really have a problem with the OoT=IW connection. I just think it makes more sense to keep on the same timeline as part of OoT that connects OoT with the IW. None of this silly extra adventures or reapting of of the same events in the new timeline involving the same people. It's what I've been saying all along. This, of course, means that ALttP and TWW have to trade places as far as timelines are concerned. I, personally, have no problem with such a switch.

And to answer Tri's question: The Dark World level in FSA is where Dark World and the Normal World seem to be merging, as you can see both dark and light versions of Lost Woods are still equually creepy looking. It would seem that in that part of Hyrule, Dark World is already infecting the enviroment.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Why do you say that, Wolf?

I thought I read something somewhere that said that Oot happened early on in the timeline.

To be frank, I don't care. Anything that destroys a coherent timeline is okay in my books.

[mohammedali]

Assumptions: There is a single timeline. All the usual games, manual and boxes are canon. OoT is the Imprisoning War. TWW comes after OoT.

Canon Facts: At the time of ALttP, "Several centuries have passed since the Seal War. In Hyrule there was a peace due to the wisdom and faith deep in the people's hearts."

Now, since TWW comes after OoT it either goes. OoT-TWW-ALttP or OoT-ALttP-TWW. The second is impossible because Ganon is dead, and doesn't mention the events of ALttP in TWW despite recalling OoT perfectly. The first is impossible, since an attack by a mighty evil monster, a great flood, enough time passing for the language to change beyond recognition, then a new Hyrule being founded and becoming well established cannot happen within "several centuries of peace" - firstly it would take too long, and secondly it's not at all peaceful. Therefore one of the original assumptions is wrong. And I choose to believe that the incorrect one is the OoT=IW one.

Let's look at it again with less bias towards disproof.
1) OoT - WW - aLttP
I agree that this is not possible because WW shows Hyrule being destroyed and suggests that Ganon left the SR aftet the IW and before aLttP which never happened.
2) OoT - aLttP - WW
This on the other hand could have happened. The fact that Ganon dies in aLttP is of no relavence. We know that Ganon is alive in LoZ which is definately after aLttP if you take the booklet, box and game as canon. Hence Ganon could have come back. We also know that there are other legends/events that could have occured before WW. In WW itself it says that the HoT/OoT is 'but one of the legends of Hyrule'. Hence, aLttP not being mentioned is not a problem. The only thing that seems out of place is the fact that Ganon has only one piece of the Triforce, but in LoZ he also only has this piece and that has nothing to do with OoT. Hence the fact that he has the ToP could have no connection to OoT just like LoZ had no connection to OoT. Hence, there is no disproof there.

If you really want a single timeline, then WW needs to be at the end of the timeline in any case because Hyrule is destroyed at the end. The King also talks about the new land they discover as not being Hyrule, so there is no reason why it would be. Finally, the other Zelda games tend to have land marks showing they are the same place. Locations such as Death Mountain, Specture Rock, Lost Woods, Lake Hylia etc have all been featured in the other Zelda games except in WW. This is another reason that in a single timeline WW must come after them. With this in mind, aLttP can come any time before - including just after OoT.

We know know that not only is OoT - aLttP probable (due to quotes and storyline aspects), but also very possible - whether as a single or a split. Having said all that, I still think that the single timeline is not what happened given quotes from Anouma and other logical elements. If you really have to doubt something then it should be a single timeline and not OoT = IW. Afterall, the creators have confirmed OoT is the IW, but have not confirmed there is a single timeline. In fact, there quote about WW being after the Adult ending of OoT as apposed to the Child one seems to counter a single timeline on its own. I know most of you will believe what you want to believe - that's your choice... but to deny OoT = IW is clearly against the intentions of the creators and the point of OoT. If you're fine with that then fair enough, but don't go claiming you have proof when you clearly don't.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

Ok we have no concrete confirmation that there is a split...period. We only have inferences, which can go any way.

We've had creators say OOT is the IW, this is before the TWW of course. So one would imagine the order is OOT-TWW-LTTP, since TWW is a direct sequal to OOT.

However with that order we have [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of plot holes that don't flow together.
1.) How did Ganon get the Triforce back and end up trapped in the Dark World, after he was impaled, petrified and submerged under thousands of leagues of water at the end of TWW?

Yes, other events could happen in between TWW and LTTP. Nonetheless, wouldn't it make sense if the event in which Ganon gains the whole Triforce and is sealed again, would be the IW...? It would explain why Ganon is in the the Dark World with the Triforce in the Dark World and sets up the game's plot. Why refer way back to OOT, in a time Ganon only had the ToP instead of the whole Triforce. I would imagine a sealing battle with a full Triforce Ganon to be as inspirational and memorable--and in this case more recent than OOT.

2.) Many would argue that would take [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of fanfiction to explain, and I agree, but it's the best way of making the OOT-TWW-LTTP order work on a single timeline. However it would require for OOT not to be the IW...but it makes much more sense!

3.) If OOT is the IW, then I say a split is the best solution. Or here's a really crazy one: the story in OOT is the most inspirational story in Hyrule's history. It was the first time when Hyrule's greatest evil first arrived, and when Hyrule first overcame such evil. So in times of trouble or doubt, the people of Hyrule always look back to it's first great victory. This would at least explain why other events in Hyrule's history are not mentioned in LTTP. So it's a combination of legends being distorted over time and people playing favoritism to the most popular story.

[mohammedali]

This is absolutely laughable.  The whole crux of the argument against my theory amounts to little more than "Oh, well I don't think stuff could happen between the IW/OoT and ALttP."

As you're clearly a n00b, I won't take your arogance too seriously. It's quite amusing to see how much rubbish you seem to come out with in this post thinking you know it all. My advice, do some actual research... I'll start you off kiddo...

MAIDEN: "The person who rediscovered the Golden Land / Sacred Realm was Ganondorf the evil thief. Luckily, he couldn't figure out how to return to the Light World"

Ganon didn't leave the SR between the IW and aLttP. The quote above shows that, and I belive there are others if you have the paitence to look. Hence if you maintain that OoT is the IW, then no game can involve Ganon in the Light World after OoT and before aLttP.

Flat out absurd.  One: boxes aren't canon, or the Hero of Time stars in LA.  Two: It's not right that things can happen between the IW and ALttP but it's perfectly feasible that Ganon can obtain the entire Triforce, die, be revived, regain the Triforce of Power, be sealed in some way or another and cause the great flood between OoT and TWW?  Tell me you're joking.

Flat out stupid. One: LoZ is after aLttP. This is also confirmed by the japanese instruction booklet (which IIRC, is written by the same people who write the box anyway). To say the box is not canon is stupid enough. To then overlook the proof in the booklet is just 'absurd' as you put it. That's another piece of canon you've overlooked. My my, you're not doing too well at this are you...
Two: Forget WW for a second and think about the other games. We see that Ganon DID obtain the Triforce (aLttP BS), die (aLttP Ending), get revived (LoZ appearence), regain the Triforce of Power (LoZ BS), then get killed again (LoZ ending). The only difference with this and the WW scenario is that instead of Ganon dying a second time he's sealed. This is known to be a different seal to the one in OoT so it's perfectly feasable. Still absurd? Tell me you're joking.

So now we have every Zelda game and all their backstories taking place between OoT and TWW?  

It's actually fine, though not a theory I adhere to. Personally I think there was a split in the timeline but if I had to place it all into a single timeline I think WW would be better suited at the end. The reason I don't have Old Hyrule resurfacing is because the King wished on the Triforce that it would be destroyed. However, considering he seemingly dies in the end, I wouldn't outrule old Hyrule returning. Anyway, the point of my last post was to show that there is a way to arange the games such that WW and aLttP don't contradict one another. I don't really care which theory you use, as long as it's not contradicting the canon.

Let's see you put that theory together in detail, shall we?  The IW is infinitely more likely to take place during the seven lost years in my opinion, for reasons exounded on at great length in this topic's first post.

What are you on about? I just said I think OoT is aLttP BS. You seem to be preaching to the converted.
As for your theory in the first post, it's far from perfect. I don't remember it in full detail but there were clearly holes. Don't get me wrong, it was a good attempt for someone who is seemingly quite new to Zelda, but just because you threw in plenty of random quotes does not make your theory anything more than a theory. You would do well to remember that.

What, you mean the interview where Aonuma totally incorrectly claimed TWW took place a hundred years post-OoT?  And what are these logical elements, pray tell?  Let's hear 'em.  Legend of the Fairy?

Try again. How about the interview that Anouma said WW occured hundreds of years after the adult ending of OoT BUT was obviously mistranslated in saying a hundred.
As for the logical elements... We know that after Ganon is defeated, the Hyrule then is going to have a future (Zelda says so herself). It seems clear, at least to me, that the when Link goes back to the past Hyrule will have a different future. Hence there would be a split. That's the way I saw OoT. Also, the timeline fits far better with there being a split.

Have they confirmed split or multiple timelines?  Have they confirmed that Link does not wear a thong?

Wow, you're so witty. Perhaps you should get an award for your amazing reply. :Link>_>:
The fact is that aLttP BS has been confirmed as being OoT. If this doesn't work with a single timeline then a single timeline must be incorrect. It's that simple. None of this dumbass crap about needing to confirm random things like Link wears a thong... Also, I find it rather distastful that you're posting your sick fantasies here - this is a storyline board, not a fetish forum.

And it wasn't the intention of the creators that TWW directly follow OoT?  The point of OoT was what, Cassius, to divide the Zelda games in two parallel timelines, thus effectively ruining the impact of pretty much any game given the gamer's knowledge that there is a whole other Triforce, Ganondorf, Link etc. in another Hyrule somewhere else and nothing you do matters as far as they're concerned?

The BS of WW itself says it's talking about one of the legends of a place called Hyrule when it mentions OoT. Hence although I agree it clearly comes after OoT, it doesn't at all have to be a direct sequal. In fact, I think the main reason OoT was ever mentioned was because OoT was big jumping on point for a lot of gamers. The first Zelda game for many of the people on these forums was OoT, so to put it as part of WW BS was an obvious move for gamers to have that sence of familiarity.
Also, although I don't think that OoT was thought out enough for a split, it seems to me that the story writer who looked into the OoT ending picked up on the split idea just like others did way before WW was released, and decided to use it to make a game that didn't interfere with other 'future' games like aLttP, LoZ, AoL etc. This gave the creators a lot of flexability to do what they wanted, like flood all of Hyrule for example.
Oh, and if you call me Cassius again I will find a much worse pet name for you. Your call, but I think you'd be getting the short straw there.

I've got several parapgraphs worth of evidence.  You have...nothing.  You just say stuff and don't show any evidence or sources.  Sure, you're somewhat okay at picking holes in this theory, but your own idea is a greedly, gulping logic vortex devoid of any evidence that does not require hole-picking.

Wow, you really told me. Only thing is that you haven't showed your 'several paragraphs worth of evidence' (unless you count the seemingly random quotes in the first post), and you clearly haven't been around long enough to see how much proof I bring to discussions. In fact, you probabliy haven't even read many of my theories. If you want to challenge any of my theories that I still believe, then by all means, find them and point them out. Until you do that I suggest you stop mouthing off like you actually know much. Don't get all miffed just because I made you and your theory look stupid. Rise above that and try to challenge me. I'd be interested to see if you have it in you or if you're just cheap talk like you have been thus far.

Mohammed Ali

[MikePetersSucks]

As you're clearly a n00b, I won't take your arogance too seriously.

Hey n00b, he joined over a year before you did Nice going though.

I love though, how you call him arrogant, but then turn right around and call an elder a n00b and make completely irrelevant statements which I guess are supposed to be witty.