192 replies to this topic

[mohammedali]

mohammedali, why don't you think that the Timeline can change? The statement about OoT made by the game's creators many years ago is no longer valid since TWW contradicts it. Nintendo does not need to make a statement that they have changed their minds about the story because TWW is their statement. TWW's connection between OoT is much stronger than ALttP's. TWW's Backstory of TWW actually refers to the Hero of Time, who is not included in ALttP backstory.

The entire point I'm making is that WW *doesn't* contradict OoT-aLttP. There have been plenty of ways that they can connect without difficulty. You can't just ignore them because you're not willing to accept other possibilities.
As for WW directly referencing OoT, you seem to forget that aLttP BS references the creation of the Dark World, Ganon claiming the Triforce, Ganon becomeing the King of Evil, Ganon being sealed by 7 sages. There are far too many parallels including direct references like when Ganon became the King of Darkness.
Now tell me, if Nintendo had changed their minds, then why did they bother changing Wise men to Sages in the rerelease of aLttP? The fact is that it's a clear link, and one that has been reinforced in the remake not to mention plenty of quotes. To deny this is to be completely blind to what is going on.
If you want to make a timeline that is likely to be compatable with Nintendos ideas, then aLttP BS has to be OoT at least in part if not in full. To deny this goes against what the creators obviously intended and still intend. There are plenty of ways WW still fits in as well.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

The entire point I'm making is that WW *doesn't* contradict OoT-aLttP. There have been plenty of ways that they can connect without difficulty. You can't just ignore them because you're not willing to accept other possibilities.
As for WW directly referencing OoT, you seem to forget that aLttP BS references the creation of the Dark World, Ganon claiming the Triforce, Ganon becomeing the King of Evil, Ganon being sealed by 7 sages. There are far too many parallels including direct references like when Ganon became the King of Darkness.
Now tell me, if Nintendo had changed their minds, then why did they bother changing Wise men to Sages in the rerelease of aLttP? The fact is that it's a clear link, and one that has been reinforced in the remake not to mention plenty of quotes. To deny this is to be completely blind to what is going on.
If you want to make a timeline that is likely to be compatable with Nintendos ideas, then aLttP BS has to be OoT at least in part if not in full. To deny this goes against what the creators obviously intended and still intend. There are plenty of ways WW still fits in as well.

Mohammed Ali

Ignoring the split (since we don't know if that's a creators intention), what are some of those ways, that the TWW fits?

[Hero of Legend]

The entire point I'm making is that WW *doesn't* contradict OoT-aLttP. There have been plenty of ways that they can connect without difficulty. You can't just ignore them because you're not willing to accept other possibilities.

Oh, but it does present a problem. You have to come up with fan fiction in order to connect OoT and ALttP now... But then again, you always have.

As for WW directly referencing OoT, you seem to forget that aLttP BS references the creation of the Dark World, Ganon claiming the Triforce, Ganon becomeing the King of Evil, Ganon being sealed by 7 sages. There are far too many parallels including direct references like when Ganon became the King of Darkness.

ALttP says that Ganondorf got the whole Triforce, became the King of Evil, and that his wish created the DW. He was then sealed by the seven Sages.

OoT says that Ganondorf then got the ToP, became the King of Evil, and the DW was created when he first entered the SR due to the evil in his heart. Technically Ganondorf was sealed by Zelda... But we can say that it was the seven Sages.

The connection is not obvious IMO.

Besides, Ganon became the King of Darkness, and was sealed by seven "sages" in FSA as well. If Nintendo can do it twice they can do it again.

On the other hand, TWW makes a staggering amount of direct references to OoT. Saying that TWW isn't the direct sequel to OoT is ignorance.

Now tell me, if Nintendo had changed their minds, then why did they bother changing Wise men to Sages in the rerelease of aLttP? The fact is that it's a clear link, and one that has been reinforced in the remake not to mention plenty of quotes. To deny this is to be completely blind to what is going on.

They were Sages in the original Japanese version. NOA simply corrected their mistranslation. And where are these quotes you speak of? Also, why does Ganon still have the entire Triforce if their aim was to connect OoT and ALttP?

If you want to make a timeline that is likely to be compatable with Nintendos ideas, then aLttP BS has to be OoT at least in part if not in full. To deny this goes against what the creators obviously intended and still intend. There are plenty of ways WW still fits in as well.

This I agree with. OoT is connected to the IW, that is obvious. But the fact that Ganondorf escaped his seal before ALttP means that OoT cannot THE IW (In a single timeline at least).

[Tri-Enforcer]

Hero of Legend, I understand what you're getting at, but there are some things you have to be corrected on. There were no sages who sealed Ganon in FSA. Ganon was sealed within the Four Sword by Link and Zelda at the end of FSA. However, it is true that FSA explains how Ganondorf becomes the 'King of Evil'. Thus we have three different games in which Ganon is said to have become Evil King: FSA, OOT, LTTP BS. So I understand your point about why he always becomes the evil king in different games. So it's hard to really place which Ganon origin came first or most recent.

In OOT it's very clear that Zelda and the other 6 sages seal Ganon away, we are shown this in the cinema.

On the other hand, TWW makes a staggering amount of direct references to OoT. Saying that TWW isn't the direct sequel to OoT is ignorance.

I agree, but a certain someone would call it ignorant or 'blind' to deny a direct connection between OOT and the LTTP BS, but yet it's ok for that person to deny a direct connection between OOT and TWW. Beats me....

They were Sages in the original Japanese version.

Really? If that's true, then it makes sense why they Nintendo changed 'Wise Men' to 'Sages'...BUT DIDN'T BOTHER TO CHANGE OTHER ASPECTS OF LTTP TO HELP STRENGTHEN IT'S SUPPOSED CONNECTION TO OOT.

EDIT: It's true the origianl Japanese version does use the term 'sage' .

[Koji]

And they can't both be connected because...? All that was being said in the first post as far as I understand is that ALttP's backstory of the seven sages yadda yadda is the same as the events in OoT. That's not hard to believe at all I don't think. I've always thought ALttP was referring to OoT, and with that staggering amount of evidence, I am now certain. Now you people are all arguing that OoT can't be linked to ALttP because WW directly refers to OoT in great detail. Well...yeah...they both REFER to the same game...why can't they do that? All it means is that OoT happens before both of them and that the same legend has been passed down to the people. Can that not happen? Besides, don't you people remember the intro for WW? "This is but one of the legends of which the people speak..." One of the legends. Meaning there are other legends? Yup! Could one of the other ones possibly be the happenings of ALttP? Y'know what...it damn well could be! Could there be OTHER legends referring to OTHER Zelda games? Probably so! The intro to WW and the legend of what happened in OoT is basically to set up the story. "Why is the world covered in water? Here...here's a story - that's why it's covered in water." That doesn't single out OoT as the only game that can come before WW.

FSA is a fun multiplayer game and all, but it IS based off of the Capcom made FS, so I don't even bother with it in a timeline. The Capcom (or Capcom based, before anyone jumps down my throat about FSA being made by Nintendo) games happen in an alternate Zelda universe as far as I'm concerned. So that whole sealing with the sages is bullshit. Besides - even if you DO want to say that's the backstory from ALttP, it still can't. Because Ganon *BECOMES* the King of Darkness in OoT - in all of those other games he's just trying to take it back.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Now you people are all arguing that OoT can't be linked to ALttP because WW directly refers to OoT in great detail. Well...yeah...they both REFER to the same game...why can't they do that?

The reason why people argue this point is due to this and maybe if you read a little closer you could see why people argue this and why it's justifiable:

1.) In LTTP, Ganon has not been outside of the Dark World sense the IW (which u believe is OOT)

2.) Ganon is out of his imprisonment in TWW (which is supposedly before LTTP and after OOT, right?)

3.) In OOT Ganon ONLY had the Triforce of Power when he was sealed, and not the whole Triforce as we see in LTTP.

4.) In TWW Ganon starts off with the ToP, helping make a direct reference to OOT. However at the end of TWW, Ganon had no Triforce part whatsoever--he's submerged under thousands of tons of water, petrified, and has the MS stuck in his head. How do you go through all this...but somehow have OOT as the LTTP BS? It's too inconsistant.

[Hero of Legend]

Hero of Legend, I understand what you're getting at, but there are some things you have to be corrected on. There were no sages who sealed Ganon in FSA. Ganon was sealed within the Four Sword by Link and Zelda at the end of FSA. However, it is true that FSA explains how Ganondorf becomes the 'King of Evil'. Thus we have three different games in which Ganon is said to have become Evil King: FSA, OOT, LTTP BS. So I understand your point about why he always becomes the evil king in different games. So it's hard to really place which Ganon origin came first or most recent.

Yes, Link and Zelda defeat him. However, it is the Maidens (they could be seen as Sages) and Zelda who seal him in the FS. It is also they who place a seal on the FS Pedestal. Now, I'm not saying that FSA is the IW. But it proves that the developers are willing to have more than one game in which Ganon is sealed by seven Sages.

And FSA cannot be Ganon's true origin since he is an "ancient demon reborn".

In OOT it's very clear that Zelda and the other 6 sages seal Ganon away, we are shown this in the cinema.

The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm. I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world.

Zelda says that she is the one who will seal the door. And that cut-scene only shows the six Sages open it. Zelda is not there at all. In fact, there is a quote that was cut out from the final game.

Oh sealed door opened by the Sages... Close forever with the Evil Incarnation of Darkness within!!

Obviously it was Zelda who said this (to bad they took it out).

So, if we go by this there is only Zelda's seal.

Really? If that's true, then it makes sense why they Nintendo changed 'Wise Men' to 'Sages'...BUT DIDN'T BOTHER TO CHANGE OTHER ASPECTS OF LTTP TO HELP STRENGTHEN IT'S SUPPOSED CONNECTION TO OOT.

EDIT: It's true the origianl Japanese version does use the term 'sage' .

Yeah, NOA simply followed the original version better this time. I only wonder why they didn't change "Golden Land" into "Sacred Realm" (That was a mistranslation as well.)

All it means is that OoT happens before both of them and that the same legend has been passed down to the people. Can that not happen? Besides, don't you people remember the intro for WW? "This is but one of the legends of which the people speak..." One of the legends. Meaning there are other legends? Yup! Could one of the other ones possibly be the happenings of ALttP? Y'know what...it damn well could be! Could there be OTHER legends referring to OTHER Zelda games? Probably so! The intro to WW and the legend of what happened in OoT is basically to set up the story. "Why is the world covered in water? Here...here's a story - that's why it's covered in water." That doesn't single out OoT as the only game that can come before WW.

*Sigh* Ignoring facts from TWW in favour of one lousy little sentence from a legend isn't… good in a debate. I have seen a lot of n00bs who try to use it as evidence that TWW isn't directly connected to OoT, but as Tri-Enforcer said, it is undeniable. In fact, that little piece of text was probably put there to say "The memory of Hyrule is nothing more than a legend now" It doesn't mean there are games between OoT and TWW.

FSA is a fun multiplayer game and all, but it IS based off of the Capcom made FS, so I don't even bother with it in a timeline. The Capcom (or Capcom based, before anyone jumps down my throat about FSA being made by Nintendo) games happen in an alternate Zelda universe as far as I'm concerned. So that whole sealing with the sages is bullshit. Besides - even if you DO want to say that's the backstory from ALttP, it still can't. Because Ganon *BECOMES* the King of Darkness in OoT - in all of those other games he's just trying to take it back.

There is no point in debating if you cannot accept facts.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Now, I'm not saying that FSA is the IW. But it proves that the developers are willing to have more than one game in which Ganon is sealed by seven Sages.

I agree with you there.

I really don't know and I'm just throwing something out in the open for now, but in FSA the maidens react to Ganondorf as if he's not capable of evil. It seems that FSA takes place during a time before the Gerudos and Ganon had a notorious history.

*Red Maiden*
Ganon... I've heard that
name before. No, wait...
It was Ganondorf...

But, no... that man was of
the Gerudo tribe.

I can't imagine these
creatures worshipping
some desert nomad.

The Gerudo honor the desert.
They are trustworthy and
pure of heart.

I cannot imagine one of them
is the King of Darkness...

*Gerudo*
Once every 100 years, a
special child is born unto
my people.

That child is destined to
be the mighty guardian of
the Gerudo and the desert.

But this child, its heart
grew twisted with every
passing year.

The child became a man
who hungered for power
at any price.

The Gerudos act as if this is the firtst time a Gerudo male grew wretched and evil. Then again maybe this is the first time. Also, the Gerudos here are explaining Ganon story as that of a recent one, not something that happened in ancient history. Also, even at this point the Ganondorf here is still developing into the King of Evil. Those quotes, to me, seem to imply Ganondorf or the Gerudos were not renowned to be evil or troublesome prior to this time. Yes this Ganon is perhaps some reincarnation, but whatever incarnation the King of Evil was before this...it doesn't seem as if it went by the name Ganon or Ganondorf. Maybe FSA is explaining the first time a Gerudo becomes the King of Evil? Possibly, a Gerudo isn't the only kind or person who can become the King of Evil. If this is the case...this could explain the origin of the Gerudo King of Evil that we're familiar with. No. I'm not saying that FSA is the IW, maybe that happens much later.

[Hero of Slime]

I think that OoT was AlttP's Backstory at one time but changed at the time of TWW. TWW has a stronger connection to OoT than ALttP's BS and is the most recent game. Therefore, TWW overrules all the game creator's quotes. Even in a split timeline I think that ALttP's BS is not OoT because I put FS and FSA in between them. However, I think a single timeline is the most logical.

[Fatgoron]

1.) In LTTP, Ganon has not been outside of the Dark World sense the IW (which u believe is OOT)

2.) Ganon is out of his imprisonment in TWW (which is supposedly before LTTP and after OOT, right?)

3.) In OOT Ganon ONLY had the Triforce of Power when he was sealed, and not the whole Triforce as we see in LTTP.

4.) In TWW Ganon starts off with the ToP, helping make a direct reference to OOT. However at the end of TWW, Ganon had no Triforce part whatsoever--he's submerged under thousands of tons of water, petrified, and has the MS stuck in his head. How do you go through all this...but somehow have OOT as the LTTP BS? It's too inconsistant.

(replying to this one, since it's the most concise version of everything I'm interested in discussing)
1(+2). That's suggested, and far from proven beyond any kind of doubt. It's also incredibly unlikely given that Ganon(dorf) would have to obtain the two other Triforce pieces, and arguably obtain the Trident.
ALttP itself mentions that information about the imprisoning war has been lost over time. Just because a descendent of a sage says something, it doesn't neccessarily make it true.

If it had not been the creator's intentions, then they had two opportunities to fix it. First was OoT, when they knew what the Maiden had said, and could have altered events to fit it, and the second was the aLttP remake, when they could have corrected her. We know, more or less, for a fact that at the time of OoT's release, it was intended to be the IW.

3. Given their (the develoeprs) intentions at the time of OoT's release, this seems more likely to be a retcon, making the legends fallible, than an accidental inconsistency.

4. I'll argue it 'til I die. Ganondorf had the ToP, as evidenced by the crest appearing on the back of his hand.
If it was a mistake, then they'd more than likely have left Link with his aswell, but they didn't.

[Koji]

Even with the inconsistancies, I still believe in the OoT-ALttP-WW timeline. I don't believe that anything in Zelda will ever match up perfectly - because they're video games and not meant to be taken so seriously.

There is no point in debating if you cannot accept facts.

You misread me. I said that I didn't consider it, but I still argued it. In FSA Ganon is "reborn". ALttP says that Ganondorf became the King of Darkness thus leading to his transformation into Ganon That's not exactly FSA. Don't write me off just because I don't consider certain (specific) games as canon.

[Hero of Legend]

Tri-Enforcer: I split your post so that I could respond to it in a satisfactory way.

The Gerudos act as if this is the firtst time a Gerudo male grew wretched and evil. Then again maybe this is the first time.

Although your theory is possible, it could easily be explained by the fact that the games are separated by hundreds of years. I mean, the people don't remember Link so why would they remember Ganondorf?

Also...

A kid like you may not know this, but the Gerudo race consists only of women. Only one man is born every hundred years... Even though our laws say that lone male Gerudo must become King of the Gerudo, I'll never bow to such an evil man!

IMO, it looks like OoT was the "first" time the Gerudo King grew evil as well.

Also, the Gerudos here are explaining Ganon story as that of a recent one, not something that happened in ancient history.

Yes, Ganondorf was born as a normal man shortly before FSA. This proves that FSA Ganon is either the first Ganon or the reincarnation of the previous Ganon.

so, even at this point the Ganondorf here is still developing into the King of Evil.

"But this child, its heart grew twisted with every passing year." To me it seems like he was born evil. Maybe this indicates that Ganondorf had been evil in a previous life?

Al Those quotes, to me, seem to imply Ganondorf or the Gerudos were not renowned to be evil or troublesome prior to this time.

Remember that the Gerudo turned good at the end of OoT. That could explain why they are friends with the Hylians in FSA.

Yes this Ganon is perhaps some reincarnation, but whatever incarnation the King of Evil was before this...it doesn't seem as if it went by the name Ganon or Ganondorf. Maybe FSA is explaining the first time a Gerudo becomes the King of Evil? Possibly, a Gerudo isn't the only kind or person who can become the King of Evil. If this is the case...this could explain the origin of the Gerudo King of Evil that we're familiar with. No. I'm not saying that FSA is the IW, maybe that happens much later.

Hm... Well, the inscription near the trident says that anyone who takes it becomes the King of Darkness.

Seek you the world? Seek you power?

Does your soul despise peace and thirst for more?

Does your soul cry for destruction and conquest?

We grant you power to ruin the world. The power of darkness.

Evil spirit of magic trident.

You are the King of Darkness.

However, I still say that Ganon had been around before FSA. It helps explain one of the “problems” in the timeline. After all, Ganon has been killed four times, but he has only been revived once. The only explanation is that there are multiple Ganons. In my theory, FSA explains how Ganondorf returned after TWW. And FSA is the (indirect) prequel to the IW.

3. Given their (the develoeprs) intentions at the time of OoT's release, this seems more likely to be a retcon, making the legends fallible, than an accidental inconsistency.

I'm not to sure about that. OoT says that Ganondorf can obtain the entire Triforce if he finds the other pieces. But that never happens during the game. So why would they put it there if not to explain how Ganon had the entire Triforce in ALttP? Maybe they intended to have games between OoT and TWW...

4. I'll argue it 'til I die. Ganondorf had the ToP, as evidenced by the crest appearing on the back of his hand.

The marks at the end of TWW mean nothing. Zelda has it while the King wishes with the ENTIRE Triforce. She had the mark without having the ToW. This proves that they don't mean anything.

Even with the inconsistancies, I still believe in the OoT-ALttP-WW timeline. I don't believe that anything in Zelda will ever match up perfectly - because they're video games and not meant to be taken so seriously.

There will always be plot holes. That is true. But I don't see how the fact that the Zelda series are video games has an effect on the timeline. The timeline was intended, and there ARE games with very complicated storylines...

You misread me. I said that I didn't consider it, but I still argued it. In FSA Ganon is "reborn". ALttP says that Ganondorf became the King of Darkness thus leading to his transformation into Ganon That's not exactly FSA. Don't write me off just because I don't consider certain (specific) games as canon.

First, those games are canon. I cannot debate with you if you do not consider them as such.

Second, ALttP and FSA do not contradict each other. ALttP's BS is most likely talking about OoT, when Ganondorf originally got the ToP and became the King of Evil. He was then reborn in FSA. And who says that FSA Ganon doesn't get the Triforce and turns out to be ALttP Ganon?

[Tri-Enforcer]

(replying to this one, since it's the most concise version of everything I'm interested in discussing)
1(+2). That's suggested, and far from proven beyond any kind of doubt. It's also incredibly unlikely given that Ganon(dorf) would have to obtain the two other Triforce pieces, and arguably obtain the Trident.
ALttP itself mentions that information about the imprisoning war has been lost over time. Just because a descendent of a sage says something, it doesn't neccessarily make it true.
 
If it had not been the creator's intentions, then they had two opportunities to fix it. First was OoT, when they knew what the Maiden had said, and could have altered events to fit it, and the second was the aLttP remake, when they could have corrected her. We know, more or less, for a fact that at the time of OoT's release, it was intended to be the IW.

What do you mean that hasn't been confirmed? It has been confirmed...by a maiden who is a sage descendant. That's canon. (Denying her statement...which is in both older and newer versions is rediculous) Her statement was clear and to the point. I have stated proof to defend my point about this...what do you have?

You're right they had two tries (actually three) to piece together the IW. However, OOT has totally different ending than what is described in LTTP BS. The only similarity is that Ganon was sealed, and we've already established that's not an unusual theing for the King of Evil.

3. Given their (the develoeprs) intentions at the time of OoT's release, this seems more likely to be a retcon, making the legends fallible, than an accidental inconsistency.

We're not speaking about legends...we're talking what me an you actually see. Ganon only had the ToP at the end of OOT and even said it...but he has the whole Triforce in LTTP. Inconsistant? Hmmmm Nintendo had a shot to clear this up with the release of OOT which details that Ganon on has the ToP, then comes TWW, which is a direct sequal to OOT, in which Ganon still has the ToP and nothing at the end. Then we have the LTTP remake in which Ganon is in possession of the whol Triforce in that game as well. Nintendo was inconistent on this issue 3 straight times? If so...the storyline is a joke and not even worth talking about.

4. I'll argue it 'til I die. Ganondorf had the ToP, as evidenced by the crest appearing on the back of his hand.
If it was a mistake, then they'd more than likely have left Link with his aswell, but they didn't.

It most likely was a mistake. We saw the pieces leaving their bodies then uniting, allowing for the king to his wish on the Triforce. Aftwerwards, the Triforce goes away after the wish. The pieces are not shown returning to them. So how do they still possesse the pieces? There's only two solutions, the marks were just indicators that they were chosen by destiny to have those respective pieces...or it's just there to show that they once possessed the pieces respectively...or it's an outright glitch. More likely a glitch since during the ending battle sequence the marks are on and off...in some scenes they have their marks...in others scenes they don't..sounds more so glitchy to me.

[Fatgoron]

What do you mean that hasn't been confirmed? It has been confirmed...by a maiden who is a sage descendant. That's canon. (Denying her statement...which is in both older and newer versions is rediculous) Her statement was clear and to the point. I have stated proof to defend my point about this...what do you have?

You have an appeal to authority, an argumentum ad verecundiam.
That's not proof, that's a logical fallacy, since her knowledge depends upon second hand information, which cannot be verified except by seeing the events in question.
When we understand that a combination of the developer's intentions and subsequent releases creates a series of events contradictory to what she said, who are we to believe? The more recent canon, or a little girl talking about things she will only have heard of from other people?

We're not speaking about legends...we're talking what me an you actually see. Ganon only had the ToP at the end of OOT and even said it...but he has the whole Triforce in LTTP. Inconsistant? Hmmmm Nintendo had a shot to clear this up with the release of OOT which details that Ganon on has the ToP, then comes TWW, which is a direct sequal to OOT, in which Ganon still has the ToP and nothing at the end. Then we have the LTTP remake in which Ganon is in possession of the whol Triforce in that game as well. Nintendo was inconistent on this issue 3 straight times? If so...the storyline is a joke and not even worth talking about.

It's not inconsistent unless you expect aLttP to be a direct sequel to OoT. Since it's not, it ceases to be inconsistent.

It most likely was a mistake. We saw the pieces leaving their bodies then uniting, allowing for the king to his wish on the Triforce. Aftwerwards, the Triforce goes away after the wish. The pieces are not shown returning to them. So how do they still possesse the pieces? There's only two solutions, the marks were just indicators that they were chosen by destiny to have those respective pieces...or it's just there to show that they once possessed the pieces respectively...or it's an outright glitch. More likely a glitch since during the ending battle sequence the marks are on and off...in some scenes they have their marks...in others scenes they don't..sounds more so glitchy to me.

It has been established in OoT that the pieces resonate when in proximity to one another. Since only Ganondorf and Zelda had pieces shown on the backs of their hands during the final battle, it seems reasonable to believe that it was their lack of proximity during the cut-scenes which caused them to stop showing. after all, Zelda spent the entire battle running from Ganondorf, while Link was the one engaging in melee combat.

The triforce was never shown entering their bodies in OoT either, yet they had them.
I also seem to remember something about the person who wishes upon the Triforce gaining the piece they most strongly embody.
Given the established behaviours of the Triforce, the king would recieve either the entire triforce, or one part of it. Yet, not one part was shown entering him.
Either the Triforce is exhibing new behaviours without specific instruction, or the parts flying off was more figurative than literal.

If the texturing was a glitch, then Link would more than likely retain his piece, but he doesn't.

The marks at the end of TWW mean nothing. Zelda has it while the King wishes with the ENTIRE Triforce. She had the mark without having the ToW. This proves that they don't mean anything.

No it doesn't, look closer.
In all instances prior to her capture when she is seen with the ToW it is consistently opaque.
While she is in Ganondorf's grasp her crest fades, becoming transparent then opaque in a constant cycle.
Then, when the wish is made and she regains consciousness, it becomes consistently opaque again.

You'd have to argue that they just decided to give her a fading/flashing crest either because she was hurt, or just for kicks, if you intend to continue saying it's not connected in any way to her posession of the ToW.
If it's significant enough a detail to have the fading coincide with her piece being captured by Ganondorf, then it means something.

[Hero of Legend]

Since only Ganondorf and Zelda had pieces shown on the backs of their hands during the final battle, it seems reasonable to believe that it was their lack of proximity during the cut-scenes which caused them to stop showing. after all, Zelda spent the entire battle running from Ganondorf, while Link was the one engaging in melee combat.

First, Zelda wasn't running from Ganondorf.

Second, you make no sense. If Zelda and Ganondorf are far away from each other during the battle, why do we see their crests?

The triforce was never shown entering their bodies in OoT either, yet they had them.

Link is sleeping while it happens... That is why we don't see it.

Given the established behaviours of the Triforce, the king would recieve either the entire triforce, or one part of it. Yet, not one part was shown entering him.

Which means that the Triforce didn’t separate and remained under the King’s control.

Either the Triforce is exhibing new behaviours without specific instruction, or the parts flying off was more figurative than literal.

It separates and flies away in AoL and ALttP as well.

No it doesn't, look closer.
In all instances prior to her capture when she is seen with the ToW it is consistently opaque.
While she is in Ganondorf's grasp her crest fades, becoming transparent then opaque in a constant cycle.
Then, when the wish is made and she regains consciousness, it becomes consistently opaque again.

You'd have to argue that they just decided to give her a fading/flashing crest either because she was hurt, or just for kicks, if you intend to continue saying it's not connected in any way to her posession of the ToW.
If it's significant enough a detail to have the fading coincide with her piece being captured by Ganondorf, then it means something.

I will just go over the entire scene.

Ganondorf is standing on the other edge of the platform. His Triforce crest is showing.

When Ganondorf says "Already, the crest of wisdom is mine..." there is a zoom-in on Zelda with the flashing Triforce crest.

Then Ganondorf says "All that remains..." and we see Link's Triforce crest (BTW, it only appears twice in the entire game, and it is glitchy both times. I don't think Nintendo could have made it appear during the final battle without a lot of re-programming).

Ganondorf then reassembles the Triforce. He walks towards it, and his Triforce crest is STILL THERE.

The King touches the Triforce before Ganondorf, and we see that Ganondorf's Triforce crest now is gone.

The King makes his wish, and Zelda still has her flashing Triforce crest.

Right before the battle Ganondorf holds up his hands, and there is no Triforce crest.

The battle starts and both Ganondorf and Zelda has their crests during the entire battle.

Ganondorf turns into stone, and Zelda's crest is once again flashing until Hyrule gets flooded.

The end.

My conclusion: The entire scene is messed up. Do not use the crests as evidence.

Also, we see the Triforce pieces leave their bodies. Why would it be any different when they enter them?

[Fatgoron]

First, Zelda wasn't running from Ganondorf.

Second, you make no sense. If Zelda and Ganondorf are far away from each other during the battle, why do we see their crests?

Play the battle again. Whenever you lure Ganondorf close to Zelda she immediately runs in the other direction.

Generally they aren't, they tend to be further apart during the cut-scenes, since Zelda maintains a fairly distance from Ganondorf during the fight.

Ganondorf is standing on the other edge of the platform. His Triforce crest is showing.

When Ganondorf says "Already, the crest of wisdom is mine..." there is a zoom-in on Zelda with the flashing Triforce crest.

Then Ganondorf says "All that remains..." and we see Link's Triforce crest (BTW, it only appears twice in the entire game, and it is glitchy both times. I don't think Nintendo could have made it appear during the final battle without a lot of re-programming).

Ganondorf then reassembles the Triforce. He walks towards it, and his Triforce crest is STILL THERE.*

The King touches the Triforce before Ganondorf, and we see that Ganondorf's Triforce crest now is gone.

The King makes his wish, and Zelda still has her flashing Triforce crest.

Right before the battle Ganondorf holds up his hands, and there is no Triforce crest.

The battle starts and both Ganondorf and Zelda has their crests during the entire battle.

Ganondorf turns into stone, and Zelda's crest is once again flashing until Hyrule gets flooded.

The end.

My conclusion: The entire scene is messed up. Do not use the crests as evidence.  

Also, we see the Triforce pieces leave their bodies. Why would it be any different when they enter them?

*I just played through it again yesterday and it's not. It dissapears when it leaves his hand.

The scene is only messed up if you don't see the correlations between the events being portrayed and the state of the Triforce pieces. Otherwise it makes perfect sense.

Why would it neccessarily be the same? The two times we see the Triforce pieces enter Link and Zelda's bodies they have been reassembled from being fragmented, while the ending shows the complete triforce being wished upon then doing whatever it does.
Since there's no reliable point of reference we can't say one way or the other what the Triforce should be doing regarding where it goes.

I may have to start buying Nintendo Official Magazine and hassling the staff over wether or not they plan to do more "ask Miyamoto" sections in the future. They're few and far between, but they'd shut me me up if I was wrong.

[Koji]

I personally believe Terranix hit the nail on the head. Everything makes sense. The reasons everyone else is giving as to why his reasoning CAN'T work are from the bottom of the barrel.

In addition to what Terranix said, I personally believe that OoT is the beginning and end of the Imprisoning (Seal) War. Not only does the war encompass the sealing of the sacred realm, but also the imprisonment of Ganon. It's not just one or the other - but both. The sacred realm was sealed to stop more evil from coming out, and then Ganon was sealed in with it to end the war. This would make sense given that in ALttP, the story is legend and it could've easily combined the sealing of Ganon and the sealing of the sacred realm into one event. Especially that since when compared to hundreds of years, seven years is a pretty short amount of time and something that happened at the beginning and another thing that happened at the end could easily be squished together. So the part with the Hylian Knights and the evil flowing out of the Dark World and the death and destruction happens in those seven years that Link is asleep.

The spiritual stones in OoT could very easily be the pendents in ALttP. In both games, all three are required to pull out the master sword - they may not look exactly alike, but how fun would it be if you had to retrieve the same 3 god damned stones in multiple games?

And now for a little idea from me as far as TP's placement is concerned- I was thinking that maybe TP takes place in the 7 years that Link is asleep in OoT: making the TP Link a Hylian Knight (ALttP Link's ancestor). The Twilight could easily be the evil spreading from the Sacred Realm out into Hyrule. Originally I thought that TP would proabably take place in the time when the "Hero didn't show up" mentioned in WW, and I know Aonuma said that it took place several decades after OoT, but it wouldn't be the first time things changed before a game came out (you remember the original beginning of Ocarina of Time? Setting out for his coming of age ceremony?). I'm just kickin' shit around - I'm probably wrong as far as that's concerned...juts some ideas that sprung up.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Fatmoron)
You have an appeal to authority, an argumentum ad verecundiam.
That's not proof, that's a logical fallacy, since her knowledge depends upon second hand information, which cannot be verified except by seeing the events in question.
When we understand that a combination of the developer's intentions and subsequent releases creates a series of events contradictory to what she said, who are we to believe? The more recent canon, or a little girl talking about things she will only have heard of from other people?
It's not inconsistent unless you expect aLttP to be a direct sequel to OoT. Since it's not, it ceases to be inconsistent.

Who are you to say that this canon character, who made canon statements, is fallible? There's no other canon source to disprove her statement about Ganon being imprisoned in the Dark World since the IW.

It has been established in OoT that the pieces resonate when in proximity to one another. Since only Ganondorf and Zelda had pieces shown on the backs of their hands during the final battle, it seems reasonable to believe that it was their lack of proximity during the cut-scenes which caused them to stop showing. after all, Zelda spent the entire battle running from Ganondorf, while Link was the one engaging in melee combat.

You forgot the other half that "establishment": the marks usually resonate when the respective pieces are in their bodies.

The triforce was never shown entering their bodies in OoT either, yet they had them.

Yes, but we are at least told that the pieces are within them respectively in OOT! In the ending battle sequence, in TWW, we see the pieces leaving them. However we're neither shown or told that the pieces supposedly went back inside them after the King made his wish.

I also seem to remember something about the person who wishes upon the Triforce gaining the piece they most strongly embody.

This rule applies only to someone who has an imbalance in their hearts. Otherwise, the Triforce will fulfill the wish in full. Even if Ganon still had his piece..he didn't have the whole Triforce, and he wasn't sealed in the Dark World.

(Koji) The spiritual stones in OoT could very easily be the pendents in ALttP. In both games, all three are required to pull out the master sword - they may not look exactly alike, but how fun would it be if you had to retrieve the same 3 god damned stones in multiple games?

The Knights of Hyrule once guarded the the Pendant of Courage during the IW, which to you, is OOT. At the time of your "OOT/IW" we see spirit stones...not pendants. Also not one of those stones are guarded by Knights of Hyrule, their guarded by the guardian spirits of the other races of Hyrule. (Gorons, Zoras, Kokiri). So, your way of explaining the stones=pendants connection doesn't make sense. Try try again.

(Terranix) The sages open the sealed door to the Sacred Realm, chuck Ganondorf in, the medallions soak up all the evil of the realm and turn it to.

OoT's timeline-bending conclusion happens, and the Imprisoning War is over.

Being hypothetical (and trying to place OOT-TWW-LTTP in this order respectively), if OOT is the IW, then the events of the TWW happened hundreds of years later. Then a new kingdom would have to be established, or the 'islands are reconnected"--this would take hundreds of years possibly as well. Somehow, Ganon has to end up back in Dark World with the whole Triforce to himself. All these said events could possibly happen hundreds of years after TWW.

So we have some pretty historical events in Hyrule's history that occured after the IW: The Great Flood, TWW itself, the founding of a new Hyrule (I would imagine this to be the most important); Ganon somehow comes back from being petrified under thousands of leagues of water, with the MS stuck in his skull. Then he is some how sent back to the Dark World--with the whole Triforce to himself (I'm sure this would be more memorable and recent than his initial sealing waaaay back in 'your' IW). If this is not the way you envsioned how to make OOT-TWW-LTTP fit in this order, then enlighten me.

With all these historical events that could've occured after the IW (spanning hundreds and hundreds of years)...you mean to tell me...OOT is the only historical event referenced in the LTTP BS and the in-game itself?

[Fatgoron]

(Fatmoron)

And now you have an Ad Hominem attack to back up your arguments aswell.

[Hero of Legend]

Play the battle again. Whenever you lure Ganondorf close to Zelda she immediately runs in the other direction.

She is positioning herself a few meters behind Ganondorf in order to shoot him. I wouldn’t say that she is far away from him.

Generally they aren't, they tend to be further apart during the cut-scenes, since Zelda maintains a fairly distance from Ganondorf during the fight.

No. Ganondorf is usually very close to Zelda during the cut-scenes. And they are not far away from each other during the battle either.

*I just played through it again yesterday and it's not. It dissapears when it leaves his hand.

It is there as he walks towards the Triforce. You just have to look VERY closely.

The scene is only messed up if you don't see the correlations between the events being portrayed and the state of the Triforce pieces. Otherwise it makes perfect sense.

It doesn't make sense at all since they have their Triforce crests when they don't have their pieces.

Why would it neccessarily be the same? The two times we see the Triforce pieces enter Link and Zelda's bodies they have been reassembled from being fragmented, while the ending shows the complete triforce being wished upon then doing whatever it does.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but if we see the Triforce pieces leave their bodies... Wouldn't we see the pieces enter them again?

And now for a little idea from me as far as TP's placement is concerned- I was thinking that maybe TP takes place in the 7 years that Link is asleep in OoT: making the TP Link a Hylian Knight (ALttP Link's ancestor). The Twilight could easily be the evil spreading from the Sacred Realm out into Hyrule. Originally I thought that TP would proabably take place in the time when the "Hero didn't show up" mentioned in WW, and I know Aonuma said that it took place several decades after OoT, but it wouldn't be the first time things changed before a game came out (you remember the original beginning of Ocarina of Time? Setting out for his coming of age ceremony?). I'm just kickin' shit around - I'm probably wrong as far as that's concerned...juts some ideas that sprung up.

That would make absolutely no sense with what we know about TP. And I would rather die than see two Links at the same time.

Granted, they had a chance with ALttP/FS GBA, but it was clearly meant to be an authentic port; nothing, down to that secret room named after an NP competition winner, was changed

They added the entire Palace of the Four Sword, which ties ALttP to the FS series. That’s pretty important.

barring the phrase "wise men", which the Japanese translators (incorrectly, IMO) realised to be sexist (plus the fact that the original Japanese in the first ALttP released way back in '91 could mean either wise men or sages all along).

Not true. There were other changes as well. And the original version probably meant "Sages" since there isn't any statement saying that they were male.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Fatmoron)

(Fatgoron) And now you have an Ad Hominem attack to back up your arguments aswell.

I'm sorry for incorrectly spelling your name. Now, that I look at that...it is kind of funny (in an 'I'm sorry' kind of way).

The Knights didn't necessarily guard the pendant during OoT/IW, they "once" guarded it. And honestly, all it takes to turn any given spiritual stone into a pendant is putting it on a chain. The stones were all in the care of various non-Hylian races at the time of OoT's Young Chapter, but they were given to these people by the Hyrulian Royal Family following, if I recall correctly, the Great War that claimed Link's parents.

When they were guarded it was also during the the IW, as in while the the war was going on, not just before the war started. Once again, the stone that would supposedly become a the Pendant of courage, let alon the other stones are not being guarde by the Knights during OOT. Also the stones are needed in OOT to help open the Door of Time, not to pull the MS (the MS chose Link and didn't have a lock/key device). Where as in LTTP the pendants are needed to actually pull the MS, since they serve as a lock/key device to pull the MS.

There has to be some give and take for any Zelda timeline to work, Tri. For obvious reasons, Nintendo is not going to release a game (in TWW) that is a sequel to a game released eleven years previously (ALttP) following OoT. And in tIW's backstory's defence, the Deluge was not even a twinkle in Nintendo's eye when released, and so is hardly likely to mention it. Granted, they had a chance with ALttP/FS GBA, but it was clearly meant to be an authentic port; nothing, down to that secret room named after an NP competition winner, was changed, barring the phrase "wise men", which the Japanese translators (incorrectly, IMO) realised to be sexist (plus the fact that the original Japanese in the first ALttP released way back in '91 could mean either wise men or sages all along).

Now, for a more in-universe argument I would say that, whilst much can happen between OoT/tIW and ALttP, OoT/tIW is still the historical tale relevant to ALttP's own internal story, which deals with the Dark World and busting out of it past the original seal places during the IW. The flood etc. is not relevant for ALttP's purposes.

Well if want to talk about what's applicable or suitable to LTTP's setting, then consider this. Considering you're throwing TWW in middle of the two games in question it seems you're willing to accept the whole notion of Ganon being outside of the Dark World in between your "OOT/IW" and LTTP chronology. Here's an idea, why not LTTP BS reference the reason why Ganon is currently locked away in the Dark World at the time of LTTP? It would make sense to talk about that...since that event pretty much sets up the start of LTTP. Why talk about some other sealing event where he didn't even gain the whole Triforce? If I'm reading the LTTP BS, logically I'm thinking...oh whatever event this story is talking about is probably the reason why the villain is currently locked away." Go figure..duh!

I would imagine the occurance in which Ganon receives the full Triforce would be just as important and memorable than the one in which he only gains the ToP. I would imagine this occurance would be very applicable to LTTP's situation, as it is the reason why Ganon is currently in the Dark World at that time, and why he has the full Triforce. It would be rather odd to focus on an older event (OOT Ganon's initial sealing) than the most recent event (Ganon returning after his petrification, impaling, and submergence only to be sealed once more in the Dark World with the whole Triforce)...especially if the most recent occurance is the reason why things are the way they are in LTTP.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I don't like this.

To the person who is trying to say that FSA = IW. Saying that FSA is the IW is even worse than saying OOT is the IW. Much worse, when you consider the fact that in FSA there is no mention of the Triforce and it isn't even inferred that Ganon gains the Triforce, how can you say its the backstory to ALttP. Not only that, but in FSA Ganon is sealed in a sword, not the Golden Realm. In fact, Ganon is nowhere near the Golden Realm.

OoT cannot be the IW either because Ganon is not in possession of the Triforce. Not only that, but he escapes in the end and the Ganon in ALttP clearly hasn't escaped from the Dark World since he first entered it. If he did, you'd think they'd mention that in the ALttP backstory.

[Tri-Enforcer]

OoT cannot be the IW either because Ganon is not in possession of the Triforce. Not only that, but he escapes in the end and the Ganon in ALttP clearly hasn't escaped from the Dark World since he first entered it. If he did, you'd think they'd mention that in the ALttP backstory.

Who here said FSA is the IW? If you're referring to some of my earlier post I was just pondering if FSA tells the actual origin of Ganon as we know him, but it was just somethingI was throwing out. So no, FSA is not the IW. Also, Ganon escaped at the end of what? At the end of FSA Ganon is sealed within the Four Sword. Ganon doesn't escape at end of any game, now that I think about it.

[Chaltab]

In response to Wolf O'Donnel:

The first post in this thread made a great case for OoT being the imprisoning war. I'm not going to restate that argument, because it is very long, but the events between Link withdrawing the Master Sword and awaking as an adult could easily be the imprisoning war.

[Fyxe]

I still see it as a retcon and nothing more. I doubt the developers thought anyone would nitpick so much.

Crazy Penguin, give me your young.

I basically agree with what he just said, and I would just like to add there's a worrying amount of fanfic in the first post in this thread. An amusing amount considering he thought it was all 'obvious'.

[SOAP]

I personally believe Terranix hit the nail on the head. Everything makes sense. The reasons everyone else is giving as to why his reasoning CAN'T work are from the bottom of the barrel.

How are they scraping the bottom of the barrel? And what exactly does Terranix hit on the head? Obviously none of these makes any sense whatsoever or smart, educated people wouldn't still be arguing about it after almost a decade now. The connection between OoT is not at all that clear cut. Don't insult our intelligence by saying otherwise. Bear with me as the rest of my post isn't targeted at anyone, I'm just throwing around general ideas. So, going with the whole "Legends change over time" business, yes OoT could easily be the IW. That's dandy. But like other people have said, TWW messes that up since both refer to OoT but neither can easily fit before the other without some crazy sort of fanfiction. One them has to cut ties with OoT. And since TWW is more recent and has stronger ties...

So it's a timeline split. The ending of OoT seems to strongly imply so. But if OoT is the IW, then wouldn't it make more sense for ALttP to follow after the dark future, since most of anything from OoT that could be considered the IW happened that part of OoT. But of course that timeline is reserved for TWW. And saying the same thing happened all over again in the alternate "Child Timeline" is just fanfiction and defeats the whole purpose of saying OoT is IW. I don't care what justifications anyone tries to make, while it proves that OoT could be the beginings of the IW, it's still saying that it didn't end it (at least not in anygame or other kind of canon that isn't made up by some fan). Moreover, there's no evidence to say that anything remotely like that will happen anyways. We simply don't know. Anyone who claims that's fact is either lying or crazy because he's grasping at the same straws we are.

No, what I think it is that OoT is a prevented IW. It would have been the IW had the timeline stayed whole but Link is sent back and it's anyone's guess what happens next. Now IMO, it'd make more sense to say that ALttP and the rest of the pre -WW series continues off the original timeline as I touched on earlier. But again, the creators seem to have decided otherwise. Usually when a timeline split is introduced in a series, anything that comes out after that continues off the newly created timeline. Not the otherway around. But I'm starting to get off track here.

So prevented-IW. I believe that in the new timeline, Ganon is successfully stopped before entering the Sacred Realm. Oh, the IW happens. But not until some time later and by that time, Hyrule would be better prepared to fight back in case they weren't so lucky the next time around. Of course, Ganondorf would still be human in this timeline so he won't be around for long. As I suggested in another debate, I believe this is where FSA comes in with Ganondorf aquiring the Trident of Darkness and thus gaining sort of immortality or atleast the super powers needed to build up a stronger footing in Hyrule. This could explain why there's apparantly two origins stories of Ganondorf. It's still the same Ganondorf. Just an older version that exists in the alternate timeline that still has yet to claim the Triforce. After building up a cult following, he tries, for the first time as far as everyone in this timeline is concerned, to steal the Triforce. Then the IW happens exatly as it's played out in ALttP's BS. This is not fanfiction. The IW is simply an event I place before ALttP. As a backstory. Nothing more. Nothing less.

As for OoT, it's just the origin story of Ganon IMHO. I'd like to note that at one time I avidly defended the OoT/ALttP connection. If anyone were to tell me I'd have to odacity to try knock OoT off it's "sacred" position as THE IW, I would've thought they were out of their minds. And even when TWW came out, I sting clung to that belief, coming up with crazy theories about ALttP coming between OoT and TWW. In fact, I had a rather long winded theory not even that long ago right after TP's placement was annouced. There I stated that TP could potentionally open things up for more games (more specifically ALttP). But that theory was terribly outdated and [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of my data was incorrect.

[Doopliss]

I don't agree with some points of your first post, Terranix, first of all, Link opened the Sacred Realm, and he definitely wasn't a gang of thieves, plus, as your quotes from the games say, it wasn't an accident since Zelda had been planning it. Plus, no sage looked for someone to yield the Master Sword, unless you count Zelda as one (who didn't intend Link to become the Hero of Time and who didn't know she was a sage). Plus, I find it difficult to give validity to your teory considering that there isn't any reference to the Seal War in OoT from the characters and that Link could go in and out of the Sacred Realm freely when he traveleed through time, a little strange if it was sealed.