302 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

...Except that it was called the Wishing Hat, and that Ezlo is a cap that used to be a Minish.

I've checked the script, unless it was at some obscure moment in the game, it's never called the 'Wishing Hat'. It's called all sorts of things from 'mage's cap' to 'magic cap', but never is it given a proper name. Leading me to conclude that while the Minish Cap *could* be Elzo, it's easier if we think of it as the magical hat that has no name, because calling it the Minish Cap *gives* it a name.

Elzo already has a name.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Zelda when she gives Link the Light Arrows in OOT) And here is a weapon that can penetrate the Evil King's defenses...
The power given to the chosen ones...
(centered)
The sacred Arrow of Light!!!
(You got the Light Arrow! The light of justice will smite evil!)
(rumble)

I know the quote is talking about light arrows specifically, but maybe in general...the princess is "chosen" to have light based powers. Many..if not all of the Zeldas we've seen have special powers that range from discharging energy, spells, and even telepathy..etc. Perhaps the light force is simply a special power bestowed upon the princess. Yes, I know that Zelda usually has the ToW and that could be a source of her power, but there are some games in which Zelda doesn't even have the ToW and still has the special abilites like the ones above and more. Example? LTTP (remember the Triforce was whole in this game, no one person had a specific part); The first half of OOT Zelda didn't have the ToW but still had special powers (the Triforce was whole and didn't split until Ganon touched it); In Oracles Zelda still seems to have clairvoyant powers despite not having the ToW (no one controlled specific parts the Triforce for it was whole).

I understand that it's Hyrule and everybody and they're momma could possesse magic and Zelda could be like anyone else who learns strong magic. However her powers always stood out (to me at least) as divine based-and emphasized warnings against or battling against evil.

It was said in LTTP BS that the earliest Hylians could hear messages from the Gods and had other powers. Perhaps they all had light force within them as well. As we know...later Hylians did not really retain these powers, with the exception of maybe Zelda. The earliest Hylians probably existed long before the days of the Minish Cap.

But the Picori were said to have brought the light force to Hyrule? Maybe the Picori or Minish People were special messengers of the gods? They brought this special force to Hyrule on behalf of the gods to help the Hylians. As for the Triforce, it's probably still resting in the Golden Land-undisturbed-at the time of MC. I know it's fanfic but it could help tie up some things.


Once again, I'm just assuming the light force is just a special power given to the princess of Hyrule.

[Vazor]

I've checked the script, unless it was at some obscure moment in the game, it's never called the 'Wishing Hat'.  It's called all sorts of things from 'mage's cap' to 'magic cap', but never is it given a proper name.  Leading me to conclude that while the Minish Cap *could* be Elzo, it's easier if we think of it as the magical hat that has no name, because calling it the Minish Cap *gives* it a name.

Elzo already has a name.

Well, um...I...don't...have...a text dump.

*runs*

[MikePetersSucks]

Tri-Enforcer, I agree whole-heartedly. Fyxe, your current avatar is THE best one yet. (.hack pwnz) and speaking of pwnage...

Well, um...I...don't...have...a text dump.

*runs*

Pwned.

[Fatgoron]

Unfortunately, that doesn't make any sense, and it messes with ALttP's internal logic.  Link was meant to beat Ganon despite Ganon being armed with the Triforce, because he is the legendary Hero.  It makes no sense why Ganon would not have the full power of the Triforce behind him during the battle.

We've discussed this sort of thing numerous times in the past, and I wholeheartedly agree that what I've said goes against aLttP's internal logic.
However, Nintendo have a habit of retroactively changing things.

In light of the behaviours established in OoT and TWW, and such, it doesn't seem that Ganon would be able to use the power of the full triforce without touching it.
Given that we're never shown it exiting Ganon's body, or travelling to that room from any other location, it stands to reason that he wasn't in contact with it at any point while Link fought him.
He also fails to exhibit any significant powers, apparently content to float around the room engaging in melee combat and sending flaming bats at link.

I'm not saying I consider it impossible, but in light of what the Triforce has been shown to be capable of, even just the ToP, it seems as though it would take a herculean effort on Ganon's part to lose that fight.

[Fyxe]

What makes you think you can't use the Triforce without touching it? Touching it first just allows you to wish upon it, then it's strength becomes yours. In OoT, it split. In ALttP, Ganon clearly regains the whole Triforce and uses it's power to make his wish completely true. In TWW, the king makes his wish and then lets it go. It was probably part of his will to split and remove the Triforce from the area so Ganon could not merely kill the king and take the Triforce for himself and reverse the wish.

Oh, and if you think teleporting, creating flaming bats with an immensely powerful trident who's power source is mostly unknown (although WE know it probably got it's strength from the Triforce itself) and vanishing in darkness is just normal behavior, come off it. If it wasn't for the Triforce Ganon would never have that sort of strength. If it wasn't for the Triforce he would be little more than a mere human, admittedly with strong phsical strengh, magical powers, and skill with blades.

Not only that, but if it wasn't for the Silver Arrows, Ganon would be *invincible*.

Ganon doesn't NEED to touch the Triforce to have it's power. He merely needs to be alive. The Triforce itself says that it will grant him it's strength as long as he lives. He's already made his wish, the Triforce then gives him the strength to carry out his wish in it's entireity.

Finally, Ganon would never of lost to anyone other than the Hero. That's the point.

[mohammedali]

I agree with Fat Goron on this. I think that originally, Nintendo were suggesting (though it's not really confirmed) that Ganon has the whole Triforce to make the game seem more clear cut. In the grand scheme of things however, this doesn't really seem to make much sence IMHO. Whether Nintendo did this knowingly when they made aLttP, or whether it was a retcon, it seems to me that Ganon didn't have the whole Triforce at his command.
In light of OoT, my guess is that Ganon had the ToP, he then acquired the ToW during aLttP, and Link actually had the ToC as an inherited part of being the hero. The Triforce then comes together in a seperate room due to resonance. This would obviously be a retcon if it were true, but it would make more sence as Link always HAS to have a piece of Triforce to beat Ganon, and Ganon always only part of the Triforce otherwise there's no point in the game. He can just wish for Hyrule to be his etc.
Alternatively, it could be that the Triforce was just in Ganons back room but he wasn't controlling it. This is possible, as we know that the Triforce also resided in Hyrule Castle without someone controlling it. This is a lot less fanficcy than the above explination, but it still doesn't seem likely to me that neither Link nor Ganon would have a piece in the game. Having said that, it seems even less intuitive that Ganon would have it all and Link would have nothing considering we are always told that Link will fail against Ganon if he doesn't a piece and that's when Ganon only has 1/3rd of the Triforce - not even the whole thing.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

What on Earth are you talking about? Since when are we EVER told that Link will fail against Ganon without a piece of the Triforce? You seem to forget that each Link is a different Link, and each game tells a different tale. The Link from OoT is NOT the same Link from ALttP. They are different people, with different destinies.

The fact is, Ganon made his wish upon the *whole* Triforce. It's clearly intended that Ganon has the whole Triforce in ALttP. To think otherwise is just ignoring the obvious. It's in the room behind Ganon's room in the Pyramid of Power, for heck's sake. You think Ganon would of noticed.

Retcon or no retcon, you can't mess with the internal logic of a game to such a degree.

If you defeat Ganon, this
world will vanish, and the
Triforce will wait
for a new master.

Clearly, Ganon is the master of the Triforce. And as an even more clear quote...

But I will never give you the
Triforce. I will destroy you
and make my wish to conquer
both Light and Dark Worlds
come true without delay.

Ganon HAS the Triforce. He may not have it ON his person during the final battle but he is it's master, so it's power is his to control.

One more quote from the Japanese manual...

Ganon acquired the Triforce, but no one knows what Ganon wished for.

[Cendamoose]

i'm not sure if anyone pointed out the following, and i'm feeling too crappy to read past the third page - so i'll just state a few things:
1) vaati was looking for the Triforce of Power (just read vaati's text over again when he opens the box and you'll understand - i think)
2) there was apparently supposed to be another sword - however it is named the default null value, and when you get the object it gives a message about infusing the wind element in it, it even has it's own graphic (looks like FS but thicker)
3) zols were in the minish cap (as a beta monster D:) (for sir zol)

[Fyxe]

Zols were a beta monster because the game engine of The Minish Cap was based on the engine of Four Swords, and Zols were in that. One of the few enemies that was in Four Swords but not in Minish Cap, in fact.

And here's the text when Vaati opens the box...

Vaati: Heh heh heh heh... All who stand in my way shall share this fate!
Now, to find out what power awaits me in this chest!

Vaati: ...?!? Empty? There was nothing in there but those monsters?
What is the meaning of this? Well, I know the force I'm after is somewhere
out there. I'm in no hurry. I can take my time searching for it. Heh heh  
heh...

That doesn't mean he was after the ToP. He just said 'now to find out what power awaits me', it could of been any power, he wasn't sure.

[Cendamoose]

actually it had it's own entry in the midst of monsters so i believed it was planned to be used at one point - i also came across an entry for a bouncing fire that would split in half when hit, i'm not sure if that was in FS. i remember the zols in FS though.

but really - vaati was after the triforce of power, which i guess was SUPPOSED to be in the box. which he later goes "OH SO ITS IN ZELDA" or something stupid and vaati-like, during that glass stained cutscene.

and goddamn your avatar gives me a boner

[Cendamoose]

time to open minish cap in hex workshop
i am sure there was a quote that lead me to believe he was after the ToP, or maybe i'm going crazy.

[Cendamoose]

"The sorcerer Vaati took this form.after draining the power of the light.force from Princess Zelda. The evil.beams from his eyes are devastating..Once Vaati's body has been shattered,.this dark form rises up, all that.remains of the evil sorcerer. Only the.sacred Four Sword can defeat him..This is the embodiment of purest evil,.the final form of the power-mad Vaati..Its mind is consumed with a hunger for.destruction. Find its weakness."

"Perhaps now, we are ready.to face ..Vaati..!....He's mad with power! He's nothing but.a swirling mass of raw chaos now!.He will consume everything and reduce.the world to darkness!.If we let him go now, he will engulf.the world in an eternal night!."

"Oh! What a vile form you've taken!....Vile? I am a sorcerer now, and my.power is beyond compare!.No longer will I tire away as your.apprentice!"

".This year, on the day that comes but.once a century, the portal opens..And when it does, I shall claim the...light force ..as my own..I will be transformed, perfect, and.there will be none who can stop me....GAAAAAA!!!....Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!"

"You know the legends, of course. The.gifts the Picori gave the humans....What you call the ..Picori Blade.. was.the first of those gifts. The second....Well, you call it ..light force.., but it is.a source of limitless magical power..If ..Vaati ..were to get it now, it would.be devastating.."

"If that stained glass is accurate,...Princess Zelda holds the light force..!.Vaati will do whatever it takes to.steal that power from her!"

actually, the more i think about it - he wasn't after the ToP. he was after the whole triforce itself.

which brings us a curious question - since vaati was only able to extract a portion of the triforce - is he the reason it is in three pieces rather then one triangle? i mean - sure OOT said "THE THREE GODDESSES AND THE THREE TRIANGLEZ" which is why there were three spirtual stones, but in the minish cap and FS series there are -four- 'spirtual stones' - so maybe there are supposed to be four pieces of that mystic triangle?

probably not and just a fever induced illusion!

[Crazy Penguin]

which brings us a curious question - since vaati was only able to extract a portion of the triforce - is he the reason it is in three pieces rather then one triangle? i mean - sure OOT said "THE THREE GODDESSES AND THE THREE TRIANGLEZ" which is why there were three spirtual stones, but in the minish cap and FS series there are -four- 'spirtual stones' - so maybe there are supposed to be four pieces of that mystic triangle?

I doubt there's any connection, it would conflict with the origin of the Triforce told in Ocarina of Time as you noted, and The Minish Cap revealed that the reason for the "four" theme was because the new blade was infused with four elements (of course the real world explanation is that you can only use up to four players on GBA and GC).

[mohammedali]

What on Earth are you talking about?  Since when are we EVER told that Link will fail against Ganon without a piece of the Triforce?  You seem to forget that each Link is a different Link, and each game tells a different tale.  The Link from OoT is NOT the same Link from ALttP.  They are different people, with different destinies.

OK. Let's look at this and see. I'll list all the games with Ganon and Link excluding aLttP.

LoZ - Ganon has the ToP. Link needs the ToW before he can fight him.
OoT - Ganon has the ToP. Link has the ToC.
WW - Ganon has the ToP. Link needs the ToC before he can fight him.

Notice a theme here? To have a game where Ganon has the whole Triforce and Link has nothing just doesn't make sence. Either they both have at least a piece each, or neither has it. This would also make much more sence with tying into OoT (I'll explain below).

The fact is, Ganon made his wish upon the *whole* Triforce.  It's clearly intended that Ganon has the whole Triforce in ALttP.  To think otherwise is just ignoring the obvious.  It's in the room behind Ganon's room in the Pyramid of Power, for heck's sake.  You think Ganon would of noticed.

Firstly, we know what happened when Ganon wished on the Triforce. It split. However it is not even slightly suggested that that happened yet it is the 'clear intention' of the game. Now, either you accept that saying OoT is aLttPs BS is ignoring the obvious as well (for aLttPs internal logic), or you accept that Ganon wished on the Triforce, it split, and aLttP doesn't tell you the whole story.
It's also not necessary that Ganon doesn't know the Triforce is behind him. He may be keeping it there for when he feels he's ready to touch it again (to avoid it splitting again) OR it may be a case that it recombined.

Clearly, Ganon is the master of the Triforce.  And as an even more clear quote...

The Triforce is an ambiguous term. It can be used to describe any one piece, or all 3. The quotes you gave prove that in retrospect, the term Triforce refers to only one piece in parts of aLttP.

"Ganon acquired the Triforce, but no one knows what Ganon wished for."

Now we *know* that Ganon didn't acquire the whole Triforce when he made his wish. He acquired one part of it. This shows directly that it doesn't have to mean the whole Trifocre.

Ganon HAS the Triforce.  He may not have it ON his person during the final battle but he is it's master, so it's power is his to control.

Look at the quote again.

Ganon: "But I will never give you the Triforce. I will destroy you and make my wish to conquer both Light and Dark Worlds come true without delay."

So, we have worked out that the word Triforce, in retrospect, also applies to a single piece from aLttP itself. So it seems that Ganon is saying he will never give the ToP rather than the whole Triforce. He then goes on to say tha the will destroy Link and make a wish.
There is little indication that one can make a wish after their first wish (when they first touched the Triforce). This calls into question what is going on. However, for arguements sake, let's assume you can make more wishes.
Question. Why didn't Ganon just make the wish to rule before? Why didn't he just wish Link was dead? There are so many things that Ganon could do if he had the whole Triforce, and yet he didn't.
Now let us assume that the idea of making only one wish upon touching the Triforce is true. This would mean that after the Triforce split, Ganon would have to regather all the pieces again to make another wish. This would explain *exactly* why Ganon says he will destroy Link and *then* make a wish. If Link has a piece then it resolves everything. Why Ganon doesn't make more wishes. Why Link has the power to face off against Ganon. Why Ganon needs to destroy Link before concuring the world. With Ganon having the whole Triforce, however, it doesn't seem to work.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

OK. Let's look at this and see. I'll list all the games with Ganon and Link excluding aLttP.

LoZ - Ganon has the ToP. Link needs the ToW before he can fight him.
OoT - Ganon has the ToP. Link has the ToC.
WW - Ganon has the ToP. Link needs the ToC before he can fight him.

Notice a theme here? To have a game where Ganon has the whole Triforce and Link has nothing just doesn't make sence. Either they both have at least a piece each, or neither has it. This would also make much more sence with tying into OoT (I'll explain below).

Firstly, OoT and TWW came after ALttP. Lets ignore them for the moment, shall we? Just looking at the internal logic of ALttP requires Ganon to have the whole Triforce. If Link had a piece, the game would of SAID so at some point. You would of seen it, fly out of his body or something. ANYTHING. The quotes I showed clearly state that Ganon is the master of the Triforce, and the WHOLE Triforce. There is nothing wrong with Link facing Ganon without a Triforce piece. ALttP is not OoT. It is not TWW. It is a different game, with a different plot, and a different hero.

Firstly, we know what happened when Ganon wished on the Triforce. It split. However it is not even slightly suggested that that happened yet it is the 'clear intention' of the game. Now, either you accept that saying OoT is aLttPs BS is ignoring the obvious as well (for aLttPs internal logic), or you accept that Ganon wished on the Triforce, it split, and aLttP doesn't tell you the whole story.
It's also not necessary that Ganon doesn't know the Triforce is behind him. He may be keeping it there for when he feels he's ready to touch it again (to avoid it splitting again) OR it may be a case that it recombined.

You forget, just accepting that OoT is the backstory of ALttP means in turn that you accept that ALttP doesn't tell you the whole story. There is no talk in ALttP of the Hero of Time, he has been forgotten, the different species of the sages has also been forgotten, the whole splitting thing has been forgotten. The backstory of ALttP is merely talking about what they know. They know Ganon touched the Triforce, he attacked Hyrule, and at some point he made a wish upon the Triforce and became the master of the Triforce.

You're making some of your arguement based on the assumption that Ganon made his wish, THEN it split. We know from OoT this is actually probably unlikely. What's the point of it splitting if Ganon still gets his wish? That doesn't make any sense. After all, his desire to restore the Triforce in the end of OoT and TWW is to finally make his wish. Ganon is merely the 'Forger of Strength', he does not weild the power of the whole Triforce.

The Triforce is an ambiguous term. It can be used to describe any one piece, or all 3. The quotes you gave prove that in retrospect, the term Triforce refers to only one piece in parts of aLttP.

That's rubbish. They don't prove anything of the sort. It's clear when playing ALttP that Ganon is the master of the whole Triforce. It SAYS so. Your logic is that because YOU think Ganon only has one piece, then the quotes therefore prove that 'Triforce' only refers to one piece. That's just extremely bad logic.

"Ganon acquired the Triforce, but no one knows what Ganon wished for."

Now we *know* that Ganon didn't acquire the whole Triforce when he made his wish. He acquired one part of it. This shows directly that it doesn't have to mean the whole Trifocre.

Again, you make the assumption that Ganon actually made his wish when he first got the Triforce. OoT suggests this makes no sense. Alternatively, he may of made his wish but it still won't come true until he gets the whole Triforce. The quote does not use any definite timescale.

Look at the quote again.

Ganon: "But I will never give you the Triforce. I will destroy you and make my wish to conquer both Light and Dark Worlds come true without delay."

So, we have worked out that the word Triforce, in retrospect, also applies to a single piece from aLttP itself. So it seems that Ganon is saying he will never give the ToP rather than the whole Triforce. He then goes on to say tha the will destroy Link and make a wish.

He doesn't say that. He's made his wish. We know his wish has been made well before the final battle, and we're told that Ganon owns the Triforce (and as I've already covered, saying that 'Triforce' only refers to one piece is scraping the bottom of the barrel of meaning). But we also know that Ganon's wish won't come true *just like that*. The Triforce doesn't work that way.

Ganon's wish was to control* the world. That evil* wish twisted the sacred land into the World of Darkness, and then Ganon, storing up power, planned to come out into the World of Light in order to fulfill his own wish.

Finally...

However, now that Ganon has fallen, the World of Darkness should disappear* as well.
The Triforce is waiting for a new owner. The "Golden Power" is in your hands.

Clearly, Ganon was the owner of the Triforce and now upon his death it needs a new owner. It wouldn't of even said 'owner' if Ganon hadn't owned it in the first place.

Question. Why didn't Ganon just make the wish to rule before? Why didn't he just wish Link was dead? There are so many things that Ganon could do if he had the whole Triforce, and yet he didn't.

As the Triforce itself says, the Triforce doesn't work that way. You can't just wish someone dead, or whatever. You need to put some effort in yourself. Ganon wished the conquer the world. The Triforce granted him the power, but it didn't just happen. He needed to MAKE it happen.

Now let us assume that the idea of making only one wish upon touching the Triforce is true. This would mean that after the Triforce split, Ganon would have to regather all the pieces again to make another wish. This would explain *exactly* why Ganon says he will destroy Link and *then* make a wish.

Again, he never says he will make a wish. He says he will make his wish come true. From the Triforce's words (and the worlds of Sahasrahla earlier in the game), we clearly see what this means.

If Link has a piece then it resolves everything. Why Ganon doesn't make more wishes. Why Link has the power to face off against Ganon. Why Ganon needs to destroy Link before concuring the world. With Ganon having the whole Triforce, however, it doesn't seem to work.

Again, the game's internal logic explains why Ganon can't just wish for Link to be dead or whatever. And again, you're ignoring the prophecies behind the Great Cataclysm... Link is the HERO. Ganon needs to defeat him because he is the ONLY thing that can stop him. Link has the power because he is the Hero and he is part of the whole Great Cataclysm thing. The Hero will stand against the misuse of the Triforce. If he loses, the evil one will rule the world.

As I've said before, Link is not the same Link from OoT, TWW or TLoZ. He has a different destiny. In many ways, he's a greater hero than the Hero of Time or the Hero of Winds. His title is the Hero of Hyrule, and you get the implication that his heart is more balanced than his predessesors. Why was Link granted Courage in OoT? Was his heart as unbalanced as Ganon? But it doesn't split when Link in ALttP touches the Triforce. As it's said throughout the game, he is the one worthy of the Golden Power, and that is why he must face Ganon, and why he must win.

[MikePetersSucks]

LoZ - Ganon has the ToP. Link needs the ToW before he can fight him.
OoT - Ganon has the ToP. Link has the ToC.
WW - Ganon has the ToP. Link needs the ToC before he can fight him.

Too bad there's a few more.

LOZ- Link doesn't have the ToC. ZOMG!
FSA-Link doesn't have the ToC. ZOMG!

Why was Link granted Courage in OoT? Was his heart as unbalanced as Ganon? But it doesn't split when Link in ALttP touches the Triforce. As it's said throughout the game, he is the one worthy of the Golden Power, and that is why he must face Ganon, and why he must win.

Just a nitpick. There's no evidence the Hero of Time's heart was unbalanced. Ganon was the one who touched the Triforce and split it. We don't know what would have happened had Link touched it. He might of even gotten a seperate Triforce piece! But I'm getting ahead of myself. The Triforce of Courage went to the Hero of Time because he was destined to stop the one who splits the Triforce. The Gods gave him the ToC because he was the only one allowed to have it. His heart might be just as balanced as LTTP Link's, which is probably the case if you believe in that reincarnation dealio.

[Fatgoron]

What makes you think you can't use the Triforce without touching it?

For a start there's the TWW ending, where Ganondorf makes his wish, and since the king touches it first, he gets the power of the gods at his command.

In ALttP, Ganon clearly regains the whole Triforce and uses it's power to make his wish completely true.

I don't see any evidence, in light of the Triforce's established behaviours. that would suggest he was using the power of the trifore during aLttP.

In TWW, the king makes his wish and then lets it go.  It was probably part of his will to split and remove the Triforce from the area so Ganon could not merely kill the king and take the Triforce for himself and reverse the wish.

That's fanfic. How would Ganondorf kill the king if he had the triforce?
Ganondorf doesn't have the master sword (and supposedly can't use it), nor the light arrows, the silver arrows, or the power of the sages.

Oh, and if you think teleporting, creating flaming bats with an immensely powerful trident who's power source is mostly unknown (although WE know it probably got it's strength from the Triforce itself) and vanishing in darkness is just normal behavior, come off it.  If it wasn't for the Triforce Ganon would never have that sort of strength.  If it wasn't for the Triforce he would be little more than a mere human, admittedly with strong phsical strengh, magical powers, and skill with blades.

He didn't really exhibit any powers greater than what he's capable of in OoX and FSA, and he didn't seem to have the Triforce, in part or in whole, in either of them.
There's nothing to suggest the source of the Trident's power during any of the games, except a vague allusion to an ancient demon in FSA, so that's pure fanfic.

Ganon doesn't NEED to touch the Triforce to have it's power.  He merely needs to be alive.  The Triforce itself says that it will grant him it's strength as long as he lives.  He's already made his wish, the Triforce then gives him the strength to carry out his wish in it's entirety.

Again I see little evidence to support this, save for dialogue from characters who are as fallible as the creators.

But we also know that Ganon's wish won't come true *just like that*. The Triforce doesn't work that way.

I feel I have to bring up TWW's ending again. The king wishes for hyrule to be washed away, and water starts pouring down on it.
Likewise in aLttP, Link makes his wish, and everything just seems to go back to being right again. If anything the Triforce has been shown to have pretty much instantaneous results, and requires bugger all effort on the part of the wisher.

Too bad there's a few more.

LOZ- Link doesn't have the ToC. ZOMG!
FSA-Link doesn't have the ToC. ZOMG!

You missed the point, in FSA Ganon doesn't have a Triforce piece, and in LoZ Link has the ToW.
The point Mo was making is that it has been shown fairly consistently that Link tends to have a Triforce piece when facing Ganon(dorf) while he is armed with the ToP.

[Crazy Penguin]

To be honest, whilst it's blatantly obvious that Ganon was supposed to have the entire Triforce when A Link to the Past was created I wouldn't be too surprised if the staff also purposely retconned it in Ocarina of Time. This little bit of foreshadowing stands out in particular.

CURSE YOU...ZELDA!

CURSE YOU...SAGES!!

CURSE YOU...Link!

Someday...
When this seal is broken....
That is when I will exterminate
your descendants!!

As long as the Triforce of Power
is in my hand....

How would Ganondorf kill the king if he had the triforce?

...With his swords?

[Fyxe]

For a start there's the TWW ending, where Ganondorf makes his wish, and since the king touches it first, he gets the power of the gods at his command.

Uh, no, the king makes a wish, and that's it. What's your point?

I don't see any evidence, in light of the Triforce's established behaviours. that would suggest he was using the power of the trifore during aLttP.

I've given you enough quotes already. Well done for ignoring them all.

That's fanfic. How would Ganondorf kill the king if he had the triforce?
Ganondorf doesn't have the master sword (and supposedly can't use it), nor the light arrows, the silver arrows, or the power of the sages.

Light Arrows, Silver Arrows, being sealed away, all for dealing with Ganon. The king is just a king. He didn't wish for immortality, in fact quite the opposite. He knew drowning Hyrule would lead to his own death.

He didn't really exhibit any powers greater than what he's capable of in OoX and FSA, and he didn't seem to have the Triforce, in part or in whole, in either of them.

Those games involve the reincarnation of Ganon, and Ganon is a demon originally created by the Triforce of Power. If it wasn't for the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf would never of become that monstrosity in the first place. Surprised you missed that.

There's nothing to suggest the source of the Trident's power during any of the games, except a vague allusion to an ancient demon in FSA, so that's pure fanfic.

Ganon presumably created the trident, correct (unless of course you place FSA before ALttP for some reason, but then Phantom Ganon's trident in OoT may be the same trident)? And Ganon is powered by at LEAST one piece of the Triforce. The trident contains Ganon's power. Therefore it was PROBABLY created with the power of the Triforce.

Again I see little evidence to support this, save for dialogue from characters who are as fallible as the creators.

The Triforce is fallible now? Who knew.
And if you mean all dialogue is fallible, well hot damn why bother arguing about anything? If dialogue doesn't count, then surely Link is actually a flying turnip.

I feel I have to bring up TWW's ending again. The king wishes for hyrule to be washed away, and water starts pouring down on it.
Likewise in aLttP, Link makes his wish, and everything just seems to go back to being right again. If anything the Triforce has been shown to have pretty much instantaneous results, and requires bugger all effort on the part of the wisher.

Except that the Triforce ITSELF says that Ganon was building up his power to make his wish completely true. And it ALSO said that Ganon's wish was *granted*, changing the Golden Land into the Dark World.
And by the way, the flooding of Hyrule... Not instantanious. Ganon's Tower was on it's on in the center of the flood, and Link and Zelda had to battle to the death with Ganon before the whole of Hyrule would be consumed. If it was instantanious, surely the king could of drowned himself and Ganon and let the heros escape as they do in the ending.

And the ending of ALttP is just an ending, it doesn't mean it happens *just like that*. Clearly some time passes. Sahasrahla needs to return home, for one thing. He's an old man, he's not exactly nippy.

You missed the point, in FSA Ganon doesn't have a Triforce piece, and in LoZ Link has the ToW.
The point Mo was making is that it has been shown fairly consistently that Link tends to have a Triforce piece when facing Ganon(dorf) while he is armed with the ToP.

Except in ALttP. So what? Armos walk in TLoZ, and hop about in ALttP. Link has brown hair in TLoZ, browny yellow hair in ALttP, and blonde hair in the newer games. Link defeats Ganon without a Triforce piece in ALttP, Link defeats him with the ToC in OoT.

I mean, really, so what? The games are different to each other. The plots are different. Just because the Hero of Time has the ToC when he defeats Ganon in OoT (I don't remember it ever saying he NEEDED it, anyway), doesn't mean the Hero of Hyrule can't defeat Ganon when he is armed with the entire Triforce.

To be honest, whilst it's blatantly obvious that Ganon was supposed to have the entire Triforce when A Link to the Past was created I wouldn't be too surprised if the staff also purposely retconned it in Ocarina of Time. This little bit of foreshadowing stands out in particular.

Everyone seems to conveniently ignore that it's repeatedly said that Ganon has the Triforce and it sits in a room behind where you fight him. Seriously, that sort of evidence would lead to a instant conviction in court. The ToP does not appear from Ganon's ashes in ALttP. Link NEVER has the ToC. And there is never any talk of Zelda having the ToW.

Surely it's much more logical to just say that Ganon simply regained the ToC and ToW sometime inbetween OoT and ALttP. At least this is backed up by TWW, where that's precisely what he's trying to do.

Retconning is fine, TO A DEGREE. When you start messing with the internal logic of a whole game, you're just going deep into the realm of fanfic. And the internal logic of ALttP means Ganon has the Triforce. That's a pretty big detail.

[Tri-Enforcer]

GANON HAD THE WHOLE TRIFORCE TO HIMSELF IN ALTTP UP UNTIL THE VERY END WHEN HE WAS DEFEATED.

(Tree in Palace of Darkness Area) You're new here, aren't you?
Did you come here looking for
the Power of Gold?

Well, you're too late. It will
obey only the first person who
touches it.

The man who last claimed the
Power of Gold wished for this
world. It reflects his heart.

 
(Maiden in Ice Palace) If you defeat Ganon, this
world will vanish, and the
Triforce will wait

for a new master.
I believe in you...
Good luck!

(Ganon himself for crying out loud said this) But I will never give you the
Triforce. I will destroy you
and make my wish to conquer
both Light and Dark Worlds
come true without delay.

(The Triforce itself even said this) Ganon's wish was to conquer
the world. That wish changed
the Golden Land into
the Dark World.

After building up his power,
Ganon planned to go on to the
Light World to fulfill his wish.
 
The Triforce is waiting for a
new master. Its Golden Power is
in your hands...

These quotes clearly show that the Triforce was not split at any point in LTTP. That also shows that the Trifrorce was whole and in Ganon's control up until the very end when he was defeated. Ignoring this...and bending explanations to say that the Triforce was split at some point in LTTP is utter denial.

[Crazy Penguin]

Retconning is fine, TO A DEGREE.  When you start messing with the internal logic of a whole game, you're just going deep into the realm of fanfic.  And the internal logic of ALttP means Ganon has the Triforce.  That's a pretty big detail.

It doesn't seem too much of a stretch.

Why did the Sacred Realm turn into the creepy Dark Realm? In A Link to the Past we're told that it was because of Ganon's wish on the Triforce. In Ocarina of Time we're told that it was due simply to Ganon's presence in the realm.

Why is Ganon a pig? In A Link to the Past we're told Ganon took on his pig form whilst in the Sacred Realm due to its nature of changing people's physical forms to reflect thier hearts. In Ocarina of Time we see Ganon transform into a pig outside of the Sacred Realm with the Triforce of Power, and the only time we ever see him in the Sacred Realm he's in his human form.

[Fyxe]

Actually, we were told that the Sacred Realm was changed to reflect Ganon's will. It could of changed in part due to the Triforce of Power. Also, we know when it was CALLED the Evil Realm, but we don't know when it actually physically became the Dark World. All we saw of it in OoT was a void and the Temple of Light (which remained untouched, so it can't of been the Dark World completely).

Also, we are never told that Ganon's form was taken because of the Triforce or the Sacred Realm. We just assumed that. OoT showed that he could turn into that form with just the ToP.

Besides, those are still minor points when it comes to whether Ganon possessed the Triforce or not. And especially minor when you try to suggest that Link has the ToC, which is just... Absolutely baseless.

[Cendamoose]

fyxe, if you have AIM, contact me at 'clashzilla' and i'll show you apart of (what i believe to be) the sacred realm nobody has ever seen.
:3

[Cendamoose]

it isn't really wise to base assumptions off of ingame effects - but it's curious as to why a triangle pops up when you get the earth element :3

[Fatgoron]

Uh, no, the king makes a wish, and that's it.  What's your point?

Ganondorf wishes to have the land of Hyrule exposed once again to the rays of the sun, he asks the Gods to give it to him.
Then the King touches the triforce and makes his wish.
The King's wish appears to be the one that gets granted, despite ganondorf being the one who has captured, and for all intents and purposes, owns the Triforce in its entirety at that point.

I've given you enough quotes already.  Well done for ignoring them all.

I haven't, they just don't go far enough to prove that he was using the power of the triforce at that time. They prove quite adequately that he posessed it, but little more.

Light Arrows, Silver Arrows, being sealed away, all for dealing with Ganon.  The king is just a king.  He didn't wish for immortality, in fact quite the opposite.  He knew drowning Hyrule would lead to his own death.

I as speaking hypothetically, like if the King didn't wish to drown Hyrule.
Ganondorf should not reasonably be able to kill someone who has the power fo the Gods at his command.

Those games involve the reincarnation of Ganon, and Ganon is a demon originally created by the Triforce of Power.  If it wasn't for the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf would never of become that monstrosity in the first place.  Surprised you missed that.

Ganon won't have the power of the ToP, if he doesn't possess it.
It therefore stands to reason, that if he exhibits no greater power in one instance, than in an instance where he is known to be without it, then he either doesn't have it, or is feigning weakness.

Ganon presumably created the trident, correct (unless of course you place FSA before ALttP for some reason, but then Phantom Ganon's trident in OoT may be the same trident)?  And Ganon is powered by at LEAST one piece of the Triforce.  The trident contains Ganon's power.  Therefore it was PROBABLY created with the power of the Triforce.

Phantom Ganon doesn't have a trident in OoT, it's a Jumonji Yari.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yari
http://www.zeldanede...antom_ganon.gif
I'm happy to simply agree to differ on the subject of the source of teh Trident's power.

The Triforce is fallible now?  Who knew.
And if you mean all dialogue is fallible, well hot damn why bother arguing about anything?  If dialogue doesn't count, then surely Link is actually a flying turnip.

Welcome, Link...
I am the Essence of the
Triforce.
... ... ...
The Triforce will grant the
wishes in the heart and mind of
the person who touches it.
If a person with a good heart
touches it, it will make his good
wishes come true... If an evil-
hearted person touches it, it
grants his evil wishes.
The stronger the wish, the
more powerful the Triforce's
expression of that wish.
Ganon's wish was to conquer
the world. That wish changed
the Golden Land into
the Dark World.
After building up his power,
Ganon planned to go on to the
Light World to fulfill his wish.
But now that Ganon has been
destroyed, his Dark World will
surely vanish.
The Triforce is waiting for a
new master. Its Golden Power is
in your hands...
Now, touch it and think of
the wish in your heart.
...  ...  ...  ...

The triforce says nothing about ganon using it during aLttP.
Ganon made a wish, at some undisclosed point, to conquer the world, which then created/altered the dark world/sacred realm. That's all it says about Ganon's use of it.

Except that the Triforce ITSELF says that Ganon was building up his power to make his wish completely true.  And it ALSO said that Ganon's wish was *granted*, changing the Golden Land into the Dark World.
And by the way, the flooding of Hyrule...  Not instantanious.  Ganon's Tower was on it's on in the center of the flood, and Link and Zelda had to battle to the death with Ganon before the whole of Hyrule would be consumed.  If it was instantanious, surely the king could of drowned himself and Ganon and let the heros escape as they do in the ending.

Instantaneous, was perhaps not the best choice of words, however the point stands. You said that the realisation fo a wish required effort on the part of the person who made that wish, and the games have demonstrated that such an assertion is incorrect, by way of wishes being granted while the King was shown to have been standing there doing nothing.

And the ending of ALttP is just an ending, it doesn't mean it happens *just like that*.  Clearly some time passes.  Sahasrahla needs to return home, for one thing.  He's an old man, he's not exactly nippy.

I'm not saying time doesn't pass. I'm saying we aren't shown the ressurection of the King and Link's grandfather, or the guards changing back, or the maiden's freed from the crystals.
The only thing we're shown Link playing any part in is the return of the MS to the lost woods.
Since everything else is shown to have just happened with virtually no explanation, it makes the most sense for it to be a direct result of Link's wish with a minimum of interference.

Except in ALttP.  So what?  Armos walk in TLoZ, and hop about in ALttP.  Link has brown hair in TLoZ, browny yellow hair in ALttP, and blonde hair in the newer games.  Link defeats Ganon without a Triforce piece in ALttP, Link defeats him with the ToC in OoT.

Wether or not ganon had the trifroce, in whole or in part, during aLttP, is evidently debatable. Also, it's a rather larger part fo the story than Link's hair colour, or the bahaviour of a type of enemy.

I mean, really, so what?  The games are different to each other.  The plots are different.  Just because the Hero of Time has the ToC when he defeats Ganon in OoT (I don't remember it ever saying he NEEDED it, anyway), doesn't mean the Hero of Hyrule can't defeat Ganon when he is armed with the entire Triforce.

The point is that they are presently, or so we are led to believe, attempting to create a coherent, consistent storyline. Thay cannot do so if the plot elements are made to be inconsistent, without adequate explanation of why exceptional circumstances occur.

[MikePetersSucks]

The King's wish appears to be the one that gets granted, despite ganondorf being the one who has captured, and for all intents and purposes, owns the Triforce in its entirety at that point.

No, reuniting the Triforce does not give Ganon automatic rights to the Triforce. Otherwise the same could be said of Link and Zelda and we're back to where we started. When the Triforce reunites, it goes back to it's "default" state so that the previous owners, or someone new, can try again.

I haven't, they just don't go far enough to prove that he was using the power of the triforce at that time. They prove quite adequately that he posessed it, but little more.

I think that's exactly what Fyxe is debating. If you both accept that Ganon had the whole Triforce during LTTP, then why are you still arguing?

Ganon won't have the power of the ToP, if he doesn't possess it.
It therefore stands to reason, that if he exhibits no greater power in one instance, than in an instance where he is known to be without it, then he either doesn't have it, or is feigning weakness.

Dude! His lightning bolts take out 10 hearts! shit >_>

[Fatgoron]

When did he have lightning bolts?

[Fyxe]

I as speaking hypothetically, like if the King didn't wish to drown Hyrule.
Ganondorf should not reasonably be able to kill someone who has the power fo the Gods at his command.

Why not? The Triforce is not the be all and end all of strengths. It is not unstoppable. Why, the Master Sword itself was made precisely to repulse the power of the Triforce, and it does so. The Silver Arrows kill Ganon despite him being the master of the Triforce. I don't know where this concept came from that the Triforce grants immortality or unstoppable power.

Ganon won't have the power of the ToP, if he doesn't possess it.
It therefore stands to reason, that if he exhibits no greater power in one instance, than in an instance where he is known to be without it, then he either doesn't have it, or is feigning weakness.

The demon form of Ganon is different from the human form Ganondorf. Ganondorf created his demonic Ganon form using the Triforce of Power. That's a fact. Whenever Ganon is reborn in both the Oracle games, FSA, AoL or presumably before he gets the ToP in TLoZ, it is Ganon being reborn, not Ganondorf (although FSA implies Ganondorf resumed his demonic form via the trident). Once Ganon's form has already been created, presumably he can be reborn in this demonic form without the ToP being needed. It was originally created with the ToP, but it's continued existence doesn't necessarily require it.

Phantom Ganon doesn't have a trident in OoT, it's a Jumonji Yari.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yari
http://www.zeldanede...antom_ganon.gif
I'm happy to simply agree to differ on the subject of the source of teh Trident's power.

Ganon's trident doesn't look very different from that at all.



Clearly they were intended as the same type of weapon.

The triforce says nothing about ganon using it during aLttP.
Ganon made a wish, at some undisclosed point, to conquer the world, which then created/altered the dark world/sacred realm. That's all it says about Ganon's use of it.

But now that Ganon has been
destroyed, his Dark World will
surely vanish.
The Triforce is waiting for a
new master.

Isn't that enough? The Triforce is saying that Ganon was using the Triforce simply by existing, and that upon his death now the Triforce needs a new master, meaning Ganon owned it and therefore he was using it.

Instantaneous, was perhaps not the best choice of words, however the point stands. You said that the realisation fo a wish required effort on the part of the person who made that wish, and the games have demonstrated that such an assertion is incorrect, by way of wishes being granted while the King was shown to have been standing there doing nothing.

Except that the Triforce itself SAID so, so it must be so. Maybe it depends on the wish. Maybe it depends on the user. Whatever the case, Ganon had to put some effort in to make his wish completely true.

Wether or not ganon had the trifroce, in whole or in part, during aLttP, is evidently debatable. Also, it's a rather larger part fo the story than Link's hair colour, or the bahaviour of a type of enemy.

I was making the point that just because Link had the ToC and Ganon had the ToP in OoT doesn't mean it had to be the same in ALttP. He's not the same hero.

The point is that they are presently, or so we are led to believe, attempting to create a coherent, consistent storyline. Thay cannot do so if the plot elements are made to be inconsistent, without adequate explanation of why exceptional circumstances occur.

Uh, they did explain it. Link is a Hero, Ganon is evil. A Hero is destined to appear if an evil one gets the Triforce. Link beats Ganon. The end.

Debating the properties of a MAGIC TRIANGLE OF THE GODS is pointless. The properties aren't set out in stone. We're never told exactly how the Triforce works. There's no major inconsistencies going on with the Triforce, other than ones that arise from people making incorrect assumptions, such as the idea that the Triforce is an unstoppable force. It clearly is not, and they never said it was.

[Mad Scrub]

Does Ganon lay his hand on the entire Triforce then verbally make his wish? Or are we to assume that when he laid his hand on the Triforce for the first time in OoT he made a wish which then caused the Triforce to split into three pieces? That is of course if you believe that OoT is the Imprisoning War. Do you have to verbally make a wish? Does the Triforce automatically know what you want when you lay your hands on it?