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Four Sword, Light Force and Vaati, oh my.


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#31 Nevermind

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 01:47 AM

So the other items Link obtains are not not part of the storyline. The Ocarina of Time, Rod of Seasons, Wind Waker, and Silver Arrows are all important storyline items that Link appears to keep inside of him and we know that of those items have mass. I don't see what makes the Triforce different, it can be held and broken in to pieces so it definatly is not an energy as the Light force is.


Obtaining those items you said is part of the storyline. The physical items, i.e., the 3D models and such, are not. That is what I was referring to, and for the developers to create individual little potrusions on Link's person for each item would be a waste of time.

And if the Triforce is not an energy, how would one use it? Throw it at someone?

#32 Fyxe

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 03:12 AM

That quote suggests that the Light Force is an energy. If the Light Force can flow through Zelda's blood then it can't have a physical form.


It's also a quote from somebody who's not sure what he's talking about. He said 'mysterious power that is SAID to flow in the viens'... Said to. Doesn't actually mean it's such a literal thing.

Oh, and Crazy Penguin, yeah, it's said in the text that the legendary Light Force can grant wishes.

#33 Showsni

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 05:39 AM

Frankly, the light force is an unanswered mystery. There's nothing in the text (that can't be argued against) proving it is or isn't the triforce, so we'll have to make our own minds up.

#34 Nevermind

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 05:44 AM

Or we could have someone like me make our minds up for us.

#35 Crazy Penguin

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 07:39 AM

Oh, and Crazy Penguin, yeah, it's said in the text that the legendary Light Force can grant wishes.


You're going to have to find a quote for me, I've looked through the script on GameFAQs but couldn't find anything like that.

#36 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 07:49 AM

Yea, but then, the Triforce as a whole is confirmed to serve someone as long as they live and shouldn't be able to be stolen.

Hold it, who says Ganon didn't do anything? Presumably if nothing needed to be done then the Triforce would reform any time the three got close to each other, but it doesn't.

The Triforce does atleast TRY to rejoin whenever they're together >_>

The Light force never actualy appears as a golden triangle, only in the pictures is it depicted that way. I think that the Light force it self has no physical form and that the picture is only a symbol.


Just to be fair, the Triforce becomes energy when it enters a person and adopts similar traits to the Light Force. Also the comics, although non-canon, say it can take any form it damn well pleases.

- Called it the Light FORCE.
2 - Said that it grants wishes.
3 - SHOWED IT AS A GOLDEN BLOODY TRIANGLE.

Omg, FORCE Gems, that bring goodluck and wishes if Tingle gathers enough! AND they're shaped like multicolored triangles, like LINK! Maybe joining them all together, OMG TRIFORCE! *ahem* Although I'll admit the Light Force does have a connection to the Triforce, I doubt it's an actual Triforce piece. Maybe it's the Will of the Triforce or....something. I dunno.

It's also a quote from somebody who's not sure what he's talking about. He said 'mysterious power that is SAID to flow in the viens'... Said to. Doesn't actually mean it's such a literal thing.


This is a VIDEOGAME, that automatically means that any rumors or legends referring to the Chosen One/Ultimate Power/Sealed Evil is automatically true.

#37 Fyxe

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 09:20 AM

You're going to have to find a quote for me, I've looked through the script on GameFAQs but couldn't find anything like that.


I checked the script too, it's not there. One of the soldiers in Hyrule says so at some point during the game.

MPS, just because legends are generally true doesn't mean they're 100% accurate and don't involve metaphors of any kind. I mean, just because it 'flows in her veins' doesn't mean it's actually physically in her bloodstream or anything like that. That was my point.

Interesting that you bring up the Force Gems actually. Force Gems are said to be the source of the power of the Four Sword. Now, the Minish brought the Picori Sword (the Four Sword) and the Light Force together. If the Light Force is related to the Triforce, then maybe so is the Four Sword, and therefore it make sense that Force Gems bear some similarity to the Triforce, if only in name and image.

#38 Hero of Slime

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 01:22 PM

for the developers to create individual little potrusions on Link's person for each item would be a waste of time.

And if the Triforce is not an energy, how would one use it? Throw it at someone?


It would be a waste of Time, and thats exactly why the items are only show going inside Link. The Triforce is no different. When ever you see the Triforce you see it you see people touching it and holding it, it has to be solid. To use the Triforce one must touch it and make a wish.

#39 Fyxe

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 01:45 PM

But when piece of the Triforce is owned by someone, it's inside them. Link has the Triforce of Courage in OoT but didn't realise it until near the end, if it was just an object you would of thought he'd go 'oh, what's this golden triangle in my pocket?'.

It's inside him. Other items are not 'inside' Link, in fact he reaches behind his shield to make most of them appear. He has them on his person, maybe in some 'bag of holding' or something, but they're there. We just don't see him lugging them around cos that would be insane.

Saying that though, has everyone seen this?

http://zelda.nintend...2/z01_4_big.jpg

Official art from the original Zelda. One of the best pieces of Zelda official art ever, especially if you see the background that the pic original had.

#40 Showsni

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 01:56 PM

I like his bedroll... It's nice the way they've tried to show so many items. In the retrospective movie in the Zelda Collector's edition, they've changed his hair colour! Sacrilege.

#41 Hero of Slime

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 01:59 PM

When know the Triforce is a solid object. We see it and its peices being touched all the time. The thing is made of gold and gold is a metal. The Triforce just can not be energy.

#42 Alakhriveion

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 03:13 PM

I know participating hurts objectivity but...

Maybe it's the Will of the Triforce or....something. I dunno.

Shadow of the Triforce?

#43 Fyxe

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 03:43 PM

When know the Triforce is a solid object. We see it and its peices being touched all the time. The thing is made of gold and gold is a metal. The Triforce just can not be energy.


It's MAGIC. It's the 'golden power' but that doesn't mean it's actually made out of gold. It's the power of the gods. When it's in physical form it's probably made out of pure magic, as it always is.

#44 Hero of Slime

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 03:59 PM

The word golden normally means made of gold. The Triforce is magic but that does not mean it is made of magic. Many other material items have magic power.

Shadow of the Triforce?

That makes more sence than it being the same thing as the Triforce.

#45 Showsni

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 04:17 PM

Shadow of the Triforce?

We know from the goddesses themselves leaving the triforce where they stood, and forming the SR there, that strong magical things can leave an imprint on their surroundings... What if the Light Force is an imprint left by the Triforce after such a long period? So it's like a less powerful shadow of the triforce itself, but not so corporeal...

#46 Hero of Winds

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 05:11 PM

I don't know if this has been said yet, but the Light Force doesn't grant wishes. That's what the Wishing Hat (I think that's what it was called) does. That's how Zelda undid all the damage Vaati had caused.

If the LF granted wishes, Vaati wouldn't have gone through the trouble to obtaining the Wishing Hat. He could've just said "Light Force, make me a god!" or something like that.

#47 Fyxe

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 06:19 PM

The word golden normally means made of gold. The Triforce is magic but that does not mean it is made of magic. Many other material items have magic power.  

That makes more sence than it being the same thing as the Triforce.


Here's the first definition on Dictionary.com...

1. Of, relating to, made of, or containing gold.

However, sometimes words have two meanings. Fancy that.

2.
a. Having the color of gold or a yellow color suggestive of gold.
b. Lustrous; radiant: the golden sun.
c. Suggestive of gold, as in richness or splendor: a golden voice.

In the overall scheme of things, it's actually more likely that the word 'golden' is used as a metaphor, if you want to go by what the word 'normally' means.

I don't know if this has been said yet, but the Light Force doesn't grant wishes. That's what the Wishing Hat (I think that's what it was called) does. That's how Zelda undid all the damage Vaati had caused.


If you want to get technical, no, it doesn't grant wishes in the same way the Triforce does. Otherwise surely Vaati could of just wished for the Light Force, if that was his ultimate goal.

The hat has the power to turn the thoughts of its wearer
into reality. Vaati's heart was filled with evil, and that was reflected in
what he became. But it seems that Zelda's pure heart, coupled with the hat's
power... ...has created a miracle!


By the way, I don't think the hat is ever named.

But the soldiers do say, more than once I believe, that the Light Force is said to grant wishes.

You seem to of got it the wrong way around. Vaati stole the hat so he could gain the Light Force and gain it's 'limitless power'. He couldn't of got the Light Force without first obtaining the hat and becoming a sorcerer.

#48 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 04:41 PM

MPS, just because legends are generally true doesn't mean they're 100% accurate and don't involve metaphors of any kind. I mean, just because it 'flows in her veins' doesn't mean it's actually physically in her bloodstream or anything like that. That was my point.

Yes, this I know. However, the game implies that it's passed from one Zelda (or whoever) to another almost like a genetic trait.

Interesting that you bring up the Force Gems actually. Force Gems are said to be the source of the power of the Four Sword. Now, the Minish brought the Picori Sword (the Four Sword) and the Light Force together. If the Light Force is related to the Triforce, then maybe so is the Four Sword, and therefore it make sense that Force Gems bear some similarity to the Triforce, if only in name and image.


I figured that too. My idea was always that the Force Gems were created after Vaati's "death" in TMC when the Light Force scattered everywhere.

The Triforce is no different. When ever you see the Triforce you see it you see people touching it and holding it, it has to be solid. To use the Triforce one must touch it and make a wish.

Uh...yea! In TWW, there's a scene where Link presents the Triforce of Courage at the Tower of the Gods, and it physically vanishes into his hand. The King of Red Lions even SAYS that it now resides in his heart. Stupid.

When know the Triforce is a solid object. We see it and its peices being touched all the time. The thing is made of gold and gold is a metal. The Triforce just can not be energy.


The Triforce is not made of any earthly material, it's divine. There's plenty of nonmetals that look like gold but aren't. The Triforce can take on any form it wants! There's even evidence that those three birds at the end of OOX is the Essence of the Triforce >_>

The word golden normally means made of gold. The Triforce is magic but that does not mean it is made of magic. Many other material items have magic power.  

The word golden normally means colored gold, like the "Golden Power Ranger." The Triforce is made out of nothing we as mortals can familiarize with. It's divine. A hypercube, you can say. Also, those other objects AREN'T GODLY RELICS OF WORSHIP THAT ALL RESPECT AND BOW DOWN BEFORE!

Shadow of the Triforce?

We know from the goddesses themselves leaving the triforce where they stood, and forming the SR there, that strong magical things can leave an imprint on their surroundings... What if the Light Force is an imprint left by the Triforce after such a long period? So it's like a less powerful shadow of the triforce itself, but not so corporeal...


OOOooo I like that idea.

But the soldiers do say, more than once I believe, that the Light Force is said to grant wishes.


Indeed, but the Soldiers could have been misinformed by Vaati's own ignorance about the object. He thought it was a physical treasure as well instead of a metaphysical energy. Perhaps Vaati was mixed up and was ACTUALLY searching for the Triforce?

#49 Octorok

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 06:19 PM

By the way, I don't think the hat is ever named

Yes it is. It's in the title of the game, the Minish Cap.

#50 Hero of Slime

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 06:26 PM

How could the Triforce, Light Force, and all the Force games all be the same thing. There is no real evidence other than the facts that they all have Force in their name, have magic power, and are triagular in shape. I think that there would be bigger similarities if the game's creators really wanted them to be the same thing. Why would the creators give them different names? They have completely different orign stories. The Light force was brought to Hyrule by the Minish and The Triforce was created by the Goddesses. The game's creators would have given them the same origin story if they wanted them to be the same thing.

#51 Crazy Penguin

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 06:46 PM

I figured that too. My idea was always that the Force Gems were created after Vaati's "death" in TMC when the Light Force scattered everywhere.


I think that Vaati would still probably have most of the Light Force to stay in his shadowy eye form.

#52 Fatgoron

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 08:40 PM

The inferences are obvious enough. As Fyxe has stated, we're clearly supposed to believe that there's some connection.
I went through the entire game expecting it to be the triforce, or a piece thereof.

However, it seems unlikely that it could be.
Since the triforce effectively grant omnipotence (wishes granted by the god[esse]s), no power in Hyrule, including a wishing cap, should feasibly be able to negate the intentions of one who wields the power of the full triforce.
Hence Zelda should not have been petrified by Vaati.

It couldn't be a single piece of the triforce without the established bahviours of the triforce being re-written. Which, while remotely possible (OoX went some way towards doing this), seems highly unlikely.
At present a portion, or portions, of any single piece are essentially worthless until one completes that whole piece.(LoZ, and TWW, are examples of this)

#53 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 08:49 PM

How could the Triforce, Light Force, and all the Force games all be the same thing. There is no real evidence other than the facts that they all have Force in their name, have magic power, and are triagular in shape. I think that there would be bigger similarities if the game's creators really wanted them to be the same thing. Why would the creators give them different names? They have completely different orign stories. The Light force was brought to Hyrule by the Minish and The Triforce was created by the Goddesses. The game's creators would have given them the same origin story if they wanted them to be the same thing.

My theory is that the Triforce and the Light Force are seperate, but the Force Gems are fragments of the Light Force or something

I think that Vaati would still probably have most of the Light Force to stay in his shadowy eye form.


Or he could've been stuck in that form or ressurected in that form, like Ganon. He was a pig monster in FSA, but didn't have the Triforce.

#54 Fyxe

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 09:27 AM

It couldn't be a single piece of the triforce without the established bahviours of the triforce being re-written. Which, while remotely possible (OoX went some way towards doing this), seems highly unlikely.
At present a portion, or portions, of any single piece are essentially worthless until one completes that whole piece.(LoZ, and TWW, are examples of this)


And OoT is a example that a single piece does grant the user it's strength and power. Ganondorf turns into Ganon simply due to the Triforce of Power, Link would not of been able to stand against him if it were not for the Triforce of Courage and it's strength, and Zelda probably wouldn't have the ability to hold Ganon without the Triforce of Wisdom.

In fact, early on in TMC we see Zelda using the 'Light Force' to defend against the monsters released by Vaati. It appears as a glowing golden light shielding her. This is very similar to the golden light Zelda uses to hold Ganon at the end of OoT. Similarly, it's possible that the Light Arrows use this same power; Zelda does give them to Link in the first place.

As for Vaati in FS and FSA... He is considerably weaker (and smaller) in both games. It's very possible that he doesn't have the Light Force, but he still retained his monsterous form.

#55 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 11:07 AM

Fyxe, I think he was referring to a Triforce Fragment like at the Draining Ceremony thing >_> When Vaati took two thirds of the Light Force. If it was a Triforce piece, breaking it up and taking a fragment of it wouldn't make you a God. So there. It can't be a single Triforce piece, and giving Zelda the entire Triforce....is ridiculous.

#56 Vazor

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 11:30 AM

Why is Zelda having the entire Triforce so ridiculous, exactly?

#57 Fyxe

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 12:08 PM

Good point.

And as for Vaati's power... He gains a lot of power, but he doesn't actually become a god. Don't you think it's a bit bizarre that he gets the POWER of a god, anyway? What sort of object in Hyrule could do that? Hmm... The TRIFORCE, maybe?

#58 Fatgoron

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 02:25 PM

He doesn't seem very god-like to me.
All it takes is four kids with magic swords to beat him.

I don't see it being possible to negate the effects of a Triforce wielder's will, wishing cap or no. The complete triforce grants the user the power of the gods. Were Zelda to have said power, it shouldn't be possible to harm her in any way.

#59 Hero of Slime

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 02:29 PM

Similarly, it's possible that the Light Arrows use this same power; Zelda does give them to Link in the first place.



Link also gets the Light Arrows from the Stone Tower, Ganons Tower, and from that guy in the Wind Tribe who was possessed. The Light Arrows clearly don't come from the Triforce.

#60 Fyxe

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 02:50 PM

Yeah, you get treasures from chests. So? That doesn't mean they originated from a chest. They must of been created in the first place. The affinity that the Light Arrows share with Zelda implies that she had something to do with their creation, especially as other abilities of hers appear to share the same force behind them.

Or their ability to counter the Triforce's power could also imply a connection with the Triforce.




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