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Four Sword, Light Force and Vaati, oh my.


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#1 Fyxe

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 06:06 PM

Ok, I'm just setting up this topic because I've just finished both the GBA version of ALttP/FS (completely finished Four Swords and the Palace of the Four Sword, so if anyone has any questions about either of those games just ask away) and TMC.

I think it's best to avoid FSA in this discussion for the most part, as the plot of that mainly centers around Ganon, poor Vaati is reduced to minion status (despite being dang cool).

Firstly, the Four Sword itself... I think we all know that the Picori Blade, the White Sword and the Four Sword are all one and the same thing, correct? The Picori Blade is the Four Sword when it is not fused with the elements, and the White Sword is the reforged Picori Blade. Incidently this does bring up the subject; is the White Sword in TLoZ the Four Sword without it's elements?

Also, the Four Sword is actually four seperate blades (four 'White Swords'). We seen in the Palace of the Four Sword that four blades, which we can dub the 'Wind Sword', the 'Fire Sword', the 'Water Sword' and the 'Earth Sword' all join together to become the Four Sword. We also see at the end of TMC a stained glass window showing Link holding the Four Sword surrounded by the four seperate blades that make it.

As for the Light Force, it's hinted quite painfully that it is either the Triforce or a fragment of the Triforce (the stained glass windows show it as a single shard of the Triforce belonging to Zelda, presumably the Triforce of Wisdom). If we are to believe the legend, the Minish brought both the Light Force and the Picori Blade to Hyrule.

If we assume that the Picori Blade did not become the Four Sword until the end of TMC, then the Palace of the Four Sword, a possible origin for the Four Sword, is not to be. I also had a theory that TMC occured sometime after ALttP, when the Triforce and the Four Sword had faded into legend.

Placing the games is therefore difficult, if we assume the Light Force is indeed the ToW. I'm wondering what everyone else thinks.

Also, was Vaati destroyed (or merely defeated...) at the end of TMC, or sealed in the Four Sword? Did he survive, just like he did the first time you fight him, and lose the Light Force completely, only to return again some years after TMC and start to hunt for maidens? Or is TMC a retelling of the backstory for Four Swords?

Finally, was Vaati destroyed in FSA? I cannot remember, I don't remember him blowing up, but I also certainly don't remember him being sealed.

EDIT: On checking the intro for Four Swords, I have concluded that the defeat of Vaati in TMC was not the defeat talked about in the backstory of Four Swords. This is primarily because of Vaati's line about going to his 'palace of winds'. Now, we all know that the Palace of Winds belongs to the Wind Tribe, but sometime between TMC and Four Swords it must become Vaati's Palace. Presumably he made it his home after his defeat in TMC.

So Vaati's kidnapping spree and his obsession with capturing maidens must of occured after his defeat in TMC. He must of gone slightly bonkers. Well, more bonkers than he already was, but it certainly seems like he's lost sight of his original goal. Then again, his motive always seemed to be based on becoming stronger, better, 'perfect' as he says himself, so clearly he had some self-confidence issues. Wanting to capture girls as trophies sort of makes sense.

#2 Hero of Slime

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 07:50 PM

I think the Light Force is not The Triforce. TMC seems to describe the Light Force as being an energy and Triforce is always descibed as being an Object.

I also have a Question. Do zoras or zols appear in FS?

#3 Fyxe

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 10:57 PM

Zols and Gels appear in FS.

I thought the Light Force was described as, well... A force. Y'know, like the TriFORCE.

I mean, really, lets see... It's apparently got infinite power, it grants your wishes, and it's depicted as a golden triangle.
What the heck else *could* it be? That's what I wanna know.

#4 Hero of Slime

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 11:42 PM

Light force is an Energy and the Triforce is a tangible object. They have completly different origin storys. The light force can only grant wishes with the help of the Minish Cap. They seem to have really big differances to be the same thing.

#5 Octorok

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 11:44 PM

There are obvious similarities, such as the the ones you just mentioned, Fyxe, but there are also some differences. For instance, the Light Force was able to be drained from Princess Zelda's body, but the Triforce is always more than just an 'essence'. It always seems a little more tangible.

Edit: Zol beat me to it, but the point stil stands.

#6 Fyxe

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 11:52 PM

Light force is an Energy and the Triforce is a tangible object. They have completly different origin storys. The light force can only grant wishes with the help of the Minish Cap. They seem to have really big differances to be the same thing.


Hold it, I don't think it was ever said that the Light Force only grants wishes with the Minish Cap. The Minish Cap is something different.

Also, the Light Force doesn't really have an origin story. All it says is that the Minish brought it into the world, which could just mean that they became the guardians of the ToW sometime in the past.

As for the Triforce being a solid object... It wasn't very solid during most of OoT. It's not like Zelda, Link and Ganondorf had big lumps of it physically inside themselves.

#7 Octorok

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 11:55 PM

But can the Triforce be drained from someone's body?

#8 Hero of Slime

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 11:58 PM

Link does not have "big lumps" from any other items he carries but that does not mean that they do not have mass. In the end of TMC Zelda puts on the Minish Cap in order to make a wish.

#9 Fyxe

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 12:44 AM

So? The Minish Cap was designed to make wishes, that was explained waaaay earlier in the game when you see Vaati put it on. It's how he becomes human and gets all his initital powers.

#10 Nevermind

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 01:24 AM

But can the Triforce be drained from someone's body?



Ganondorf did that in TWW didn't he?

And he brought them together so he could do it, or something like it, in OoT.


      Link does not have "big lumps" from any other items he carries but that does not mean that they do not have mass.


That's really not as relevant as you'd think. That's not storyline material right there, that is pure coding and gaming convenience. I mean, the guy simply reaches behind him and pulls out something, anything. They simply do not give them "lumps" because there are so many items. As you'd notice, the only things that actually change are external, constantly visible items, such as boots, swords (and I'm not even sure if the size of the sheathed sword on his back switches with the goron sword and master sword), Shields, clothes, masks, gauntlets. Basically, apparel.

What I think Fyxe was meaning by her comments was that the Triforce, INSIDE a person, rather than being a physical piece of golden triangle, is more of a 'magical power' inside them. Obviously when it's not inside a person, it IS a giant golden physical triangle...

#11 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 08:43 AM

Firstly, the Four Sword itself... I think we all know that the Picori Blade, the White Sword and the Four Sword are all one and the same thing, correct? The Picori Blade is the Four Sword when it is not fused with the elements, and the White Sword is the reforged Picori Blade. Incidently this does bring up the subject; is the White Sword in TLoZ the Four Sword without it's elements?

No. There's lots of swords that are white. Not to mention (I think) that the Four Swords in the Palace faded into the Master Sword or something.

As for the Light Force, it's hinted quite painfully that it is either the Triforce or a fragment of the Triforce (the stained glass windows show it as a single shard of the Triforce belonging to Zelda, presumably the Triforce of Wisdom). If we are to believe the legend, the Minish brought both the Light Force and the Picori Blade to Hyrule.


Yes, but there's also evidence against it. I don't stick to it all that strongly, but my little pet theory is that the Light Force is the source of Zelda's pre-Triforce prophetic power ^.^ If we assume the Light Force is the Triforce of Wisdom, then nothing works. Firstly, it means the minish can go to the Sacred Realm as they please, break off Triforce pieces without scattering it, and pass it around willynilly without divine retribution, which They'd kinda be asking for in this scenario.

Secondly, the way Zelda's been inheriting the Triforce is peculiar. It's not like passing down a necklace like in TWW, since Zelda would thusly know she had the Light Force or something as it fades into her body. No, it slips magically like a sort of energy flow, existing in the females in the royal bloodline. Creepy.

Another thing that puts a hole in this theory, and the most vital. The draining ceremony before the final boss. Ok, let's assume the Triforce can be drained magically. Right? Sure, let's go with that. And let's assume the magic of that ritual will kill the previous holder. Alright. Now, how does stealing the Triforce of WISDOM turn one into a demonic, nearly allpowerful god? Sure, the Minish Cap could help, but if yo have a wish granting cap, why steal a wish-granting triangle? I believe the Light Force is something different. Furthermore, when Link killed Vaati (and yes, he was killed in TMC, exploded and everything; he apparently can be ressurected though) the Triforce he stole didn't sit amongst his ashes like it does with everyone else who dies with a Triforce piece *Ganon* Which means that either A) That part of the Triforce was destroyed forever; not possible B) It slithered back into the Sacred Realm or Zelda, both not possible, or C) It remained with him after death. Not possible. Some also suggested that the Light Force is the whole Triforce because Vaati stole exactly two thirds. No.

Ganondorf did that in TWW didn't he?


No, those were the Triforce pieces naturally resonating to rejoin to it's true form. Ganon had no power over the process.

#12 Fyxe

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 11:23 AM

We saw Vaati explode twice. I don't necessarily think he died that day. He did however lose the Minish Cap, but whether he retained the Light Force he stole we do not know. We do however know that Zelda did not get whatever Light Force she lost back.

Anyway, the power of the Triforce is the power of the Triforce. Each piece represents different things but they all bestow the strength of the gods upon the wielder. It's also not unreasonable to suggest that it can be extracted bit by bit... As we know, the pieces of the Triforce can be broken apart.

Some also suggested that the Light Force is the whole Triforce because Vaati stole exactly two thirds. No.

I should point out now that 'no' is not a valid arguement.

Secondly, the way Zelda's been inheriting the Triforce is peculiar. It's not like passing down a necklace like in TWW, since Zelda would thusly know she had the Light Force or something as it fades into her body. No, it slips magically like a sort of energy flow, existing in the females in the royal bloodline. Creepy.


Actually, once a person weilds the Triforce, that makes perfect sense.

Let me put forth a theory. I don't necessarily believe it myself but it's just a possible theory. Going with my 'gaiden' theory or possibly a split timeline where TWW occurs seperately from ALttP and similar games, TMC could occur some generations after OoT but before ALttP. We know that at the end of OoT, the Ganondorf has Power and Zelda has Wisdom. Lets assume that the Triforce of Wisdom is lost, given to the Minish for them to look after. After a few more generations, Hyrule is again clouded in darkness, but the Hero of Men appears and saves Hyrule with the aid of the Minish, who bring with them the Picori Blade and bestow the princess of Hyrule with the Triforce of Wisdom. Not knowing what the power truely is, it becomes known as the Light Force, and is passed down from generation to generation. TMC happens, and the Light Force is seemingly lost, shattered with the defeat of Vaati. Eventually Ganon regains the ToW and the ToC, and maybe even the Four Sword, and ALttP occurs. Fearing the Four Sword, Ganon places it within it's own palace, splits it and possesses each part with a Shadow Link, but Link returns it to Hyrule along with the Triforce.

A few generations later, Vaati seemingly returns from death, his mind somewhat broken, he desperately kidnaps maidens, knowing that he is doing it for some reason but soon forgets all about the Light Force. He is of course beaten by a hero who relocated the Four Sword. He escapes again, kidnaps Zelda and presumably comes close to realising what the heck he was kidnapping maidens for in the first place, but is sealed once more. Finally he is released again in FSA.

This timeline would go...

OoT/MM - Hero of Men - TMC - ALttP/LA/KnS - OoA/S - Vaati's Return - FS/FSA - TLoZ/AoL

With my gaiden timeline being...

OoT/MM - (Presumably TP) - TWW/Tetra's Trackers

This is just a possiblity. But I see no immediate problems with it if we assume the Light Force is the ToW, but of course we'd have to make that assumption.

Mind you, the games would probably work in that order anyway.

No, those were the Triforce pieces naturally resonating to rejoin to it's true form. Ganon had no power over the process.


Hold it, who says Ganon didn't do anything? Presumably if nothing needed to be done then the Triforce would reform any time the three got close to each other, but it doesn't.

Vaati was a sorcerer with the power of the Minish Cap. Surely he could break apart the ToW and extract it's power bit by bit.

#13 Hero of Slime

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 01:10 PM

That's really not as relevant as you'd think. That's not storyline material right there


So the other items Link obtains are not not part of the storyline. The Ocarina of Time, Rod of Seasons, Wind Waker, and Silver Arrows are all important storyline items that Link appears to keep inside of him and we know that of those items have mass. I don't see what makes the Triforce different, it can be held and broken in to pieces so it definatly is not an energy as the Light force is.

#14 Fyxe

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 01:31 PM

Of course he doesn't keep them INSIDE of him. We know he keeps Bombs in a Bomb Bag, for instance, and Arrows in Quivers, and Rupees in Wallets. Just because you don't see those things doesn't mean they don't exist. It's not exactly very reasonable from a gameplay standpoint to have Link lugging around a huge pack of items on his back, so they just quietly ignore these issues. Just like when you pick up a Rupee you don't see Link putting it away or anything.

However, the Triforce is specifically inside a person once they have a piece. I mean, that's the whole Triforce on the hand thing and all that mess.

#15 Hero of Slime

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 02:03 PM

We never see the Wallet, Bomb Bag, or Quiver because Link keeps them inside of him like every other item he carries. The Triforce is inside a person like all the other items they carry. The Triforce can broken into pieces and passed around, it definatly is a solid object.

#16 Showsni

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 02:04 PM

Now that Zythe is gone, we've lost our main Triforce=Light Force arguer...

For:

Both are called "force"
Both appear as golden triangles
Both are in Princess Zelda
Both have magical properties
Both come from the Sacred Realm (assuming the Minish live there)
There is a recent trend in calling the triforce something else (Triumph Forks)

Against:

Vaati slowly (very slowly) drains the LF from Zelda. This is never seen in the Triforce, which is generally taken wholly in a short time (i.e. Ganon in TWW).
The LF, whilst still not whole, gives Vaati some power. Sections of any Triforce piece never give any power.
The LF is passed from mother to daughter in the blood stream. We know from the AoL backstory that the triforce is passed down/inherited as a physical object.
If the LF is the ToW, that means that at the end of the game the ToW is outside the SR whilst the other two are inside. No other game starts with this combination. Or else, the other two had already left the SR, in which case TMC starts with only the ToW in the SR - no game ends this way.

#17 Hero of Slime

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 02:15 PM

What evidence says that the Minish World is the Sacred Realm? The Light force never actualy appears as a golden triangle, only in the pictures is it depicted that way. I think that the Light force it self has no physical form and that the picture is only a symbol.

#18 Octorok

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 03:35 PM

The only reason anyone ever said that the Minish World was the Sacred Realm was to go along with the theory of ToW = LF. And i agree that the Light Force probably has no physical form. The golden triangle is siply a way of showin g that it is powerful, like the Triforce.

As for them both having Force in their name, that's really not a good evidence, as two things can share similar names and be completely different. For example, if I were to ask a friend if he knew 'Carl Anderson' and he said, "No, but I no a Carl Rogers", then that doesn't mean that Carl Anderson IS Carl Rogers. (I know it's a lame example, but it gets the point across.)


Both have magical properties

Just about everything in Zelda has magical properties. Enough said.


There is a recent trend in calling the triforce something else (Triumph Forks)

The name Triumph Forks actually sounds like Triforce. And you hear it from a bunch of fish men who are clearly insane.

#19 Fyxe

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 06:16 PM

If they hadn't intended any connection to the Triforce, they wouldn't of...

1 - Called it the Light FORCE.
2 - Said that it grants wishes.
3 - SHOWED IT AS A GOLDEN BLOODY TRIANGLE.

I'm sorry, but it's naive to think there is no form of connection between the two things. Maybe it's just a homage, but you have to agree that it's pretty damn weird that they come up with this 'Light Force', make it very very similar to the Triforce and give it no backstory of it's own other than 'The Minish brought it with them'.

#20 Alakhriveion

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 06:29 PM

Fyxe... you're getting dangerously arrogant.

#21 Hero of Slime

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 06:34 PM

But why would the game creators suddenly just start calling Triforce the light force and saying it is an energy. The Triforce has been an important part of Zelda since the begining and it seems stange that Nintendo or Capcom would just change its name, form, and origin story. If the Light force was intended to be the Triforce there would be better similarites between the them. Perhaps the Light force will appear in future Zelda games and then I might think a connection is possible, but until then I can not say that they are definatly the same thing based on TMC evidence.

#22 Fyxe

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 06:46 PM

Fyxe... you're getting dangerously arrogant.


I don't think arrogance is dangerous. Maybe to myself. But then I don't believe I was being arrogant, because I don't necessarily believe this whole theory, it's just a theory.

I'm just trying to get my point across. Look, I'm not sure if even I believe the Light Force is the Triforce, but the similarities are too blatant for me to just ignore them like that.

Zol, I don't *know* why the creators did it. That's what I'm trying to work out. It makes no sense that they would imply such similarities without any meaning behind it. It's either a homage, or it's a retelling of the legend (remember how Ganondorf has a different backstory in FSA?), or they really did intend it to be the ToW. I'm trying to figure out how that would work and most people just stick their fingers in their ears and go 'LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING'.

#23 Alakhriveion

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 08:45 PM

I don't think arrogance is dangerous. Maybe to myself. But then I don't believe I was being arrogant, because I don't necessarily believe this whole theory, it's just a theory.

Oh, I didn't mean arrogance itself is a dangerous thing, alhough it can strain relationships with the group. But it can definately get you in trouble. ;)

#24 Crazy Penguin

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 09:18 PM

Wait, the Light Force grants wishes?

#25 Vazor

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 09:22 PM

Ah, I miss the old LF=TF debates.

*cracks knuckles*

Vaati slowly (very slowly) drains the LF from Zelda. This is never seen in the Triforce, which is generally taken wholly in a short time (i.e. Ganon in TWW).

Zelda was made of stone at the time. I would assume absorbing it from an inanimate object would take more effort than from a manipulatable living being. But that's just me.

The LF, whilst still not whole, gives Vaati some power. Sections of any Triforce piece never give any power.

OoT. If I may give a quote from the game:

The strength of the Triforce of
Power enabled him to become a
mighty, evil king

It seems like gaining part of the Triforce does give you some power, eh?

The LF is passed from mother to daughter in the blood stream. We know from the AoL backstory that the triforce is passed down/inherited as a physical object.

I want direct quotes. Anybody got a text dump?

If the LF is the ToW, that means that at the end of the game the ToW is outside the SR whilst the other two are inside. No other game starts with this combination. Or else, the other two had already left the SR, in which case TMC starts with only the ToW in the SR - no game ends this way.

Which is exactly why I believe the LF to be the entire Triforce, and not simply the ToW.

I think that before there's any violent disagreement (like there was last time <_< ), we should first find a TMC text dump. That way, we'll have concrete information to base our arguments on. Agreed?

#26 Hero of Slime

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 09:41 PM

Vazor, how do you explain that the Light force is an energy and the Triforce is a tangible object with mass. Also the Triforce was created in Hyrule and the Light force was brought to Hyrule from the Minish World.

#27 Crazy Penguin

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 09:41 PM

From early on in the game:

Zelda: Who are you? Why are you doing this?

Vaati: The princess who holds the power of light... That mysterious power
is said to flow in the veins of every royal lady in your family ever since
that day when it was gifted to your people. If I leave you now,
you'll only cause me trouble later. That will never do.


At this point though Vaati did not realise that the power Zelda had was the very same Light Force that he was looking for. Which is very...well, just plain dumb, of him.

#28 Hero of Slime

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 10:00 PM

That quote suggests that the Light Force is an energy. If the Light Force can flow through Zelda's blood then it can't have a physical form.

#29 Octorok

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 10:27 PM

The LF, whilst still not whole, gives Vaati some power. Sections of any Triforce piece never give any power.  




OoT. If I may give a quote from the game:

The strength of the Triforce of
Power enabled him to become a
mighty, evil king



It seems like gaining part of the Triforce does give you some power, eh?

You completely missed the point. The argument was that a piece of a Triforce piece, (for example, a piece of the ToP) does not grant any powers. If someone had two thirds of the ToW, they would gain no power from it.

#30 Vazor

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 11:24 PM

Which is exactly why I said that the Light Force is the whole Triforce. If Vaati gained two-thirds of the whole Triforce, that would give him that kind of power, neh?




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