302 replies to this topic

[Tri-Enforcer]

We are told that Ganon gets the Golden Power, but this is proven to be another way of saying a piece of Triforce as well as the whole Triforce. Hence he doesn't have to get the whole Triforce. Also, aLttP doesn't exclude the possablility that he came out at some point, and even if it DID, there is still an explination of how OoT can be aLttP BS without the IW and hence without Ganon ever coming out.

Actually it's not proven. That's what you believe.

Fact is, OoT is aLttP BS. To deny this is to go against what the creators obviously intended, simply to make ones timeline work.

Hmmm, you got some nerve. I noticed you place TWW on a different timeline. Why? Because it'll throw off what you're trying to get at in LTTP. Now, you tell me who's denying something to make their theory work? In other words, that's a cheap way of rebutting someone, when it's clear we all have our biases.

I remain unmoved on this. It's never implied, said, or shown that Triforce parts are split up in LTTP. That is too critical to not put emphasis on. If it's a Zelda game involving a split Triforce....throughout the game you have quotes saying "collect" or "gather" or something to that effect, that explains the importance of uniting the Triforce. I don't see anything like this in LTTP--no implications of the Triforce being split in LTTP. Also, there's no reiteration of the Triforce being split in neither the BS or in the in-game story.

[mohammedali]

Actually it's not proven.  That's what you believe.

Actually it is proven. WW tells us that Golden Power is a term used for one piece of Triforce.

Hmmm, you got some nerve.  I noticed you place TWW on a different timeline.  Why?  Because it'll throw off what you're trying to get at in LTTP.  Now, you tell me who's denying something to make their theory work?  In other words, that's a cheap way of rebutting someone, when it's clear we all have our biases.

Not only does a timeline split make more sence, it is also suggested by the creators and what I saw as the obvious conclusion to the ending in OoT. There's nothing wrong with the fact I think there is a split.

I remain unmoved on this.  It's never implied, said, or shown that Triforce parts are split up in LTTP.  That is too critical to not put emphasis on.  If it's a Zelda game involving a split Triforce....throughout the game you have quotes saying "collect" or "gather" or something to that effect, that explains the importance of uniting the Triforce.  I don't see anything like this in LTTP--no implications of the Triforce being split in LTTP.  Also, there's no reiteration of the Triforce being split in neither the BS or in the in-game story.

As I've pointed out, it's clear that OoT is the BS of aLttP. To deny that is just being oblivious to the truth. If you can agree to that, then perhaps we can continue to explore how many pieces of Triforce there are in aLttP. Otherwise the debate just breaks down.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

Yeah, and I can show you quotes (I already have) of the term "Golden Power" being used to describe the whole Triforce in the TWW. Even in that game, which cross references the term "Golden Power" as being a piece or the whole Triforce, we are at least told and shown that the pieces are seperate and each are called by their respective names. However, this is not done in LTTP. That is too critical to not include in a game involving a split Triforce.

Here's another possibility as of to why OOT may not be the IW described in LTTP: (here's what Sahasrahla had to say after Link retrieved the Pendant of Courage in LTTP):

According to the tales handed
down by the Hylians, only the
Hero who has destroyed threegreat evils and won the three
Pendants can wield the sword... I see you have acquired the
Pendant of Courage. I will tell
you about the legend behind it. Generations ago, an order of
knights protected Hylian
royalty. These Knights of Hyrule were
also guardians of the Pendant
of Courage. It has been said that whenever
disaster waylays the royal
family, a Hero shall emergefrom the bloodline of the
Knights of Hyrule...
Unfortunately, most of themwere destroyed in the great
war against evil that took
place when the seven sagescreated their seal, so it
was thought a hero would
never again emerge...But lo! I believe you are our
hero, Link! Find the
remaining Pendants.

There were no Knights of Hyrule guarding a Pendant of Courage in OOT. (which that and the other two pendants are needed to retrieve the MS in LTTP.) In OOT you needed three stones to get the MS and none of those stones were guarded by the Knights of Hyrule, so don't say they could've shaped the stones into the Pendants-either way there were no Knight's of Hyrule guarding them.

[mohammedali]

Yeah, and I can show you quotes (I already have) of the term "Golden Power" being used to describe the whole Triforce in the TWW.  Even in that game, which cross references the term "Golden Power" as being a piece or the whole Triforce, we are at least told and shown that the pieces are seperate and each are called by their respective names.  However, this is not done in LTTP.  That is too critical to not include in a game involving a split Triforce.

I don't doubt that Golden Power can be used to describe the whole Triforce. My point is that it can be either the whole thing or a single part. Now, if you take OoT to be the BS of aLttP, then Golden Power HAS to mean a single piece.

There were no Knights of Hyrule guarding a Pendant of Courage in OOT. (which that and the other two pendants are needed to retrieve the MS in LTTP.) In OOT you needed three stones to get the MS and none of those stones were guarded by the Knights of Hyrule, so don't say they could've shaped the stones into the Pendants-either way there were no Knight's of Hyrule guarding them.

The quote says generations ago some Knights of Hyrule protected the Pendant of Courage. It says nothing about it being during OoT. For all we know, before OoT some knights *were*guarding the Pendant of courage. I don't understand why you think that quote proves anything? Anyway, I'll still also maintain that the pendants were once the spiritual stones - not that it really matters... Any other reasons why you think OoT can't be aLttP BS?

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

Did you even read the rest of that quote, it's clearly talking about the time of the IW. This time I will bold the part you seemed to have over looked:

According to the tales handed
down by the Hylians, only the
Hero who has destroyed threegreat evils and won the three
Pendants can wield the sword... I see you have acquired the
Pendant of Courage. I will tell
you about the legend behind it. Generations ago, an order of
knights protected Hylian
royalty. These Knights of Hyrule were
also guardians of the Pendant
of Courage.It has been said that whenever
disaster waylays the royal
family, a Hero shall emergefrom the bloodline of the
Knights of Hyrule...
Unfortunately, most of themwere destroyed in the great
war against evil that took
place when the seven sagescreated their seal, so it
was thought a hero would
never again emerge...But lo! I believe you are our
hero, Link! Find the
remaining Pendants.

I have other points as of to why OOT is not the LTTP BS. However, they do not apply to your split theory.

[Fatgoron]

I'll just poke my head in here and make mention that Sahasralah is as fallible as any other character.
For all we know he's talking about Link from OoT trying to protect the spiritual stones from Ganondorf.

[Tri-Enforcer]

I'll just poke my head in here and make mention that Sahasralah is as fallible as any other character.
For all we know he's talking about Link from OoT trying to protect the spiritual stones from Ganondorf.

That's ridiculous. I shouldn't even respond to this but I am. This quote comes directly from someone who is a direct sage descedant--it's very credible and it's in the game. It just amazes me the lengths people would stoop to, just to make things work for them. That's a bogus rebuttal. If it's that easy for you to say that then we all could go around making assumptions like that about what certain characters have said. Come better than that.

[mohammedali]

Did you even read the rest of that quote, it's clearly talking about the time of the IW.  This time I will bold the part you seemed to have over looked:

Whoops, my bad. The fact it was from OoT era still doesn't matter. There is every chance that there were some soldiers that guarded the pendants during OoT but were killed during the 7 years when Link was imprissoned. Fact is, that quote still doesn't prove anything.

I have other points as of to why OOT is not the LTTP BS.  However, they do not apply to your split theory.

Well then as far as I'm concerned you don't have a point at all. I've given you tons of reasons why OoT is aLttP BS. In game quotes, similarities in storyline, creators interviews, and yet there is nothing that you can find to disprove it. Also, the fact that it only works with a split should tell you something. If you're looking for the timeline that makes the most sence, why must you discredit it just because it's a split timeline? Even when the creators say WW is after the Adult ending of OoT instead of the Child, why is it so hard to believe that the one way it all works out is correct? These questions aren't directed at Tri-Enforcer alone. Infact Tri-Enforcer is one of the few who I respect for being more open to alternative timelines like splits. It's time we looked at the evidence and then built a timeline, rather than the other way round.

Mohammed Ali

[SOAP]

I don't know what you guys are debating about now but as far as the LF/TF thing goes, why do you all assume that anything in Hyrule follows the same laws of physics as our world. And even if they did, why would anything from the Sacred Realm follow those rules as well when the Sacred Realm itself defies any known logic. How do we know that something from there that's percieved as tangible would behave as tangible object should. The Triforce is the extension of the power of the gods and gods themselves are neither tangible nor energy. They seem to be something inbetween. So wouldn't it be a safer assumption that contains their power would have the same metaphysical properties as they? Nothing about the Triforce behavior so far seems to denote that it's bound by the same laws as any other solid object of the "Outside World" other than people can touch it. If anything, it seems to be more of spiritual object.

That said, I don't see why the Light Force can't be the Triforce either or at least one peice of the Triforce. Maybe the Light Force is the form a Triforce peice takes when it's inside a person's body. I'd imagine a solid golden triangle in someone's hand might be very painful. The Triforce as energy just seems more feasible.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Whoops, my bad. The fact it was from OoT era still doesn't matter. There is every chance that there were some soldiers that guarded the pendants during OoT but were killed during the 7 years when Link was imprissoned. Fact is, that quote still doesn't prove anything.

The Pendant of Courage and the other Pendants were created to give access to the Master Sword. At the time of OOT, you needed the sacred stones--not the pendants to retrieve the Master Sword or enter the temple of time. You can't say that the pendants existed maybe at the same time as the stones, because the pendants were created to retrieve the Master Sword and so were the stones. Having two sets of keys to get to the MS would make it more likely to find a way into the Temple of Time. Also the pendants are not the same shape as the stones, so the pendants could not have been used as keys to Temple of Time, since the engravings were for the shape of the stones.

This leads me to believe that the IW era was a different time from the OOT era. If the IW isn't OOT, then OOT is not the LTTP BS.

[SOAP]

You do, however, see the Knights protect the Green Royal Jewel, as well as the other three Royal jewels in FSA. The Green Royal Jewel aka Wind Element probably has nothing to do with the Pendant of Courage but I thought I'd just add that in there.

[mohammedali]

The Pendant of Courage and the other Pendants were created to give access to the Master Sword.  At the time of OOT, you needed the sacred stones--not the pendants to retrieve the Master Sword or enter the temple of time.  You can't say that the pendants existed maybe at the same time as the stones, because the pendants were created to retrieve the Master Sword and so were the stones. Having two sets of keys to get to the MS would make it more likely to find a way into the Temple of Time.  Also the pendants are not the same shape as the stones, so the pendants could not have been used as keys to Temple of Time, since the engravings were for the shape of the stones.

Firstly, there's no reason why there could not have been a new set of 'keys' in reserve to release the MS. For all we know the spiritual stones were the first key to open the MS seal, whilst the set of pendants was the second set. Infact, there's no reason there 'wasn't' a second set of 'keys' in the first place. No proof against it. We don't know. I still think that the pendants and stones are the same. They just changed the stones into pendants. Not too difficult. Also, the engravings don't matter either. Your spliting hairs that no one cares about. You're really grasping at straws here. There are a million explinations of how it could easily work. There's nothing even mildly conclusive about your arguement here.

This leads me to believe that the IW era was a different time from the OOT era.  If the IW isn't OOT, then OOT is not the LTTP BS.

This is insane. You're telling me that inspite ALL of the evidence, quotes, interviews and what not, you don't think OoT is aLttP BS because you can't imagine how to reconsile there being 3 pendants (which are red, green and blue) that unlock the MS, and 3 stones (which are red, green and blue) that unlock the MS. Damn. Now tell me, does all this not seem a little desperate just to deny the connection? If you look at your list of reasons now, you'll find you don't really have any. I think I've answered all of them.
Oh, and believe it or not, but I don't think that OoT is aLttPs BS, but I do maintain that OoT is aLttP BS in terms of Ganon gaining power etc.

Mohammed Ali

[Showsni]

We're never told the Seven Sages were different people. All we have is a picture of a few hands which is an artists impression. If you want to take it as anything more, remember that this is recounting legend. Look at the pictures from WW, do they look like anything that happened in OoT? Link didn't look like that did he? Hence to use that picture to disclaim the obvious links is unjust.

The sages descendants are Hylians. The few remaining sages in Hyrule are Hylians. Therefore, the sages were probably Hylians. Sahasralah says that the IW happened a few generations ago - Sheikah, Gorons, Gerudos, Zoras and Kokiri are hardly going to turn into Hylians in that amount of time. Plus, you see the seven sages in the game - and they're old men! The WW difference are simply different artistic styles, not completely different people!

With aLttP not having a hero is implied but not confirmed. Even if we accept it IS confirmed, there are still explinations of how it would work. i.e. OoT can be aLttP BS but not necessarily the IW mentioned in aLttP.

It's confirmed. In the instruction manual. And if OoT isn't the IW, but is ALttP BS, there's no pint having OoT as the ALttP BS at all - you may as well put them completely seperate.

We aren't told about the locking system in aLttP but it doesn't mean there was none.

In ALttP, Ganon stumbled upon the entrance to the SR fortuitously. There was no lock. And if there was, what's happened to it by the time of ALttP? Why would they tear down the Temple of Time? Why would they move the Master Sword, which is part of the seal, and can only be moved by the Hero of Time? You're saying that between OoT and ALttP, one of Link's incarnations opens the door of time and moves the Master Sword to a forest?

aLttP says the sages searched for the MS and a hero to wield it. This doesn't mean they didn't know where the MS is, but where both the hero and MS is.

Well, they might have known where the Master Sword is. But there was definitely no hero to be found. In the American version, the MS was created at this time - if you follow the American text, it's impossible for OoT to be the IW as the MS is already an ancient legend in OoT. In the Japanese, the MS might have been created earlier. But it's still unlikely to be an established legend, instantly recognisable to everyone, as it is in OoT, as it's never been used before the IW.

The knights never defeated Ganon's forces. They stalled them to give the sages more time. In OoT, although we don't see any knights we do see the loads of people who are corpses right outside the castle, as if there was a battle there. It's likely that this battle stalled Ganon from taking over completely way before Link was freed.

The knights do defeat Ganon's forces, after he is sealed. They are never driven away completely. The manual tells how the battle is raging as the sages complete their seal, and that it's only the knights giving their bodies as shields that lets the Sages complete the seal. There's no gap of any significance between the knights dying and the sages seal.

Ganon is leader of a gang of thieves in ALttP BS who we find out later are the Gerudo in OoT. Also, we don't know what happened when Ganon entered, or if he entered with anyone. All we hear if Ganon's voice, but there is every possibility that he had his tribe with him. In fact it's more likely than him going alone to an unknown world.

If Ganon had taken his followers with him, you'd think the Gerudo would mention it! We can see in Gerudo valley that no one has left to go to Hyrule castle. And the townspeople don't mention anyone except for Ganon riding through the town. Ganon is the only one who visits the Temple of Time.

The creators obviously haven't changed there minds either. In the rerelease of aLttP, they changed 7 wise men to 7 sages - there's no reason to do that other than to keep in line with OoT.

That change hasn't done anything - a wise old man is a sage. That's what the word means.

To claim all the events that happened in OoT happened again just before aLttP seems crazy.

All the events? No. The only similarities are that Ganon enters the SR and touches the triforce, sometime before he is sealed in the SR by seven sages. History does repeat itself. So much so, that it's become a cliché. The sages in OoT probably got the idea of how to get rid of Ganon from the IW story. After all, without the silver arrows they couldn't kill him - so they did the next best thing.

I've gone through EVERY 'inconsistancy' you could find, and it all still works. You on the other hand are doubting so much of the obvious. It's unjust. You have to admit, there's too many links to have them as differnt events.

There aren't really that many links.

And then there's TWW (and TP, too). How do you put this between OoT and ALttP and reconcile it in a single timeline?

[Fatgoron]

That's ridiculous.  I shouldn't even respond to this but I am.  This quote comes directly from someone who is a direct sage descedant--it's very credible and it's in the game.  It just amazes me the lengths people would stoop to, just to make things work for them.  That's a bogus rebuttal.  If it's that easy for you to say that then we all could go around making assumptions like that about what certain characters have said.  Come better than that.

How does being a descendent of a sage make him infallible?
The easy answer is that it doesn't. He's relaying information he obtained from elsewhere. He wasn't there to experience the IW/SW, so he doesn't know for certain what happened.

I'm making no assumption here, Sahasrahla is as fallible as prett much anyone else in the game. Ergo his dialogue should not be considered concrete evidence of anything.

[mohammedali]

The sages descendants are Hylians. The few remaining sages in Hyrule are Hylians. Therefore, the sages were probably Hylians. Sahasralah says that the IW happened a few generations ago - Sheikah, Gorons, Gerudos, Zoras and Kokiri are hardly going to turn into Hylians in that amount of time. Plus, you see the seven sages in the game - and they're old men! The WW difference are simply different artistic styles, not completely different people!

When I said artistic interpretation, I meant of the artists that made the game booklet. Also, I don't think the facts that the Maidens all looking identical means that they are all genetically the same. It's clearly just due to the limitations of the SNES. The fact that each sage decendant seems to live in an area that we know one of the sages comes from suggests that somehow they are the desendants of those sages. i.e. They are human via some sort of magic, or cross breading, or only desendants in spirit. The number of possible explinations are endless - though I still maintain it's more likely to be simply a case that aLttP was very basic, and they hadn't thought of these tribes at the time. If you don't like this explination, then feel free to use any of the others I suggested before.
In any case though, part of my theory could be used to explain this anyway. I was responding to a post by Laz where he asked if there may have been sages before the 7 we see in OoT. Let's assume there were 1 for each temple including Rauru. In my theory, when Link is sent back as a child and he tells the King that Ganon is in the SR and then leaves for Termina. The king then calls for the sages (not the ones in OoT, but Rauru and crew). They seal Ganon and set up the events for aLttP. This means the events in aLttP happen exactly as said in the booklet - All Hylian sages and all. However, I don't think this is even necessary, as it's given that the reason for the maidens all *looking* Hylian is not part of the storyline, but if you want to nitpick then this theory works fine with the rest of my theory.

It's confirmed. In the instruction manual. And if OoT isn't the IW, but is ALttP BS, there's no pint having OoT as the ALttP BS at all - you may as well put them completely seperate.

The booklet says they looked for the hero and the MS *however* time was short. I agree it's greatly implied, and for my theory it works out. However, I don't know if it's really clear cut enough to be canon.

In ALttP, Ganon stumbled upon the entrance to the SR fortuitously. There was no lock. And if there was, what's happened to it by the time of ALttP? Why would they tear down the Temple of Time? Why would they move the Master Sword, which is part of the seal, and can only be moved by the Hero of Time? You're saying that between OoT and ALttP, one of Link's incarnations opens the door of time and moves the Master Sword to a forest?

He stumbled on it by fortune, correct. This is true in OoT when he keeps an eye on Link and is lucky enough to have Link open the seal. As for what happened to the lock by aLttP, it's been sealed. That was the whole point of the sages seal in aLttP BS. Ganon doesn't brake the lock untill Link has all 7 crystals, by which time he's been to the SR so many times, he doesn't need the MS method of going there.
As for why the ToT was torn down, it was forgotten from what it seems like. It must have just broken down over the centuries. Also the MS hasn't been moved. Look at the map of OoT and aLttP. At first it looks like everything is in roughly the same place in each game (Lake Hylia, Death Mountain, etc etc.) but when you look at the Lost Woods it seems as though they've swapped from East to West. Seems strange. However, go back to OoT map where the Lost Woods are in the West and look at Hyrule Castle on the map. You will notice that there is woodlands surrounding the back of the castle. Also, in aLttP Hyrule Castle seems to be closer to where Lon Lon Ranch is. What seems to have happened is the old Castle has been abandened, and a forest has grown in the East - leaving the MS as one of the last standing buildings. The Castle was most likely rebuilt where the Ranch used to be. Works out perfectly without the MS being moved anywhere.

Well, they might have known where the Master Sword is. But there was definitely no hero to be found. In the American version, the MS was created at this time - if you follow the American text, it's impossible for OoT to be the IW as the MS is already an ancient legend in OoT. In the Japanese, the MS might have been created earlier. But it's still unlikely to be an established legend, instantly recognisable to everyone, as it is in OoT, as it's never been used before the IW.

Firstly, I always take Jap over US text as the US text is a translation of the Jap text. It makes no sence to use the US over the Jap. Secondly, my theory assumes that Link was in Termina during the aLttP IW so it all checks out.

The knights do defeat Ganon's forces, after he is sealed. They are never driven away completely. The manual tells how the battle is raging as the sages complete their seal, and that it's only the knights giving their bodies as shields that lets the Sages complete the seal. There's no gap of any significance between the knights dying and the sages seal.

The knights all die whilst the sages create the seal. That's what we know. This works fine in my theory. For those that believe OoT is the IW, I would say Link is evidently a knight of Hyrule and he did delay Ganons forces whilst the sages cast the seal.

If Ganon had taken his followers with him, you'd think the Gerudo would mention it! We can see in Gerudo valley that no one has left to go to Hyrule castle. And the townspeople don't mention anyone except for Ganon riding through the town. Ganon is the only one who visits the Temple of Time.

We don't know what happens from OoT. The Gerudos aren't even allowed to talk bad about Ganon - look what happened to Naburu (though they woudn't really tell some random kid anyway). Also, those that DID leave the Valley wouldn't be in Hyrule anyway. They would all be dead after Ganon killed them in the SR. Fact is that Ganon could have taken any number of people with him to the SR, and from aLttP we know he did.

That change hasn't done anything - a wise old man is a sage. That's what the word means.

lol. What are you on about? Wise old man doesn't mean sage at all. My grandfather was a wise old man but not a sage. And OoT can confirm that sage doesn't mean Wise Old Man. In fact only 2 of the sages are male, and only one of those old.

All the events? No. The only similarities are that Ganon enters the SR and touches the triforce, sometime before he is sealed in the SR by seven sages. History does repeat itself. So much so, that it's become a cliché. The sages in OoT probably got the idea of how to get rid of Ganon from the IW story. After all, without the silver arrows they couldn't kill him - so they did the next best thing.

Ummm. How about you try Ganon touches the Triforce in both, gains the title of King of Evil in both, creates the Dark World in both, is sealed away in both. Seriously, you've got to be in serious denial when not only do the same events happen (some of which can only happen once - like being made King of Evil), but it's also confirmed by the creators.

And then there's TWW (and TP, too). How do you put this between OoT and ALttP and reconcile it in a single timeline?

Firstly, who said there has to be a single timeline? The quote from the creators even suggest there is a timeline split. However, this is all besides the point. We are looking at the OoT - aLttP connection and not WW. Let's stay on topic rather than try to diverge. Fact is, there's everything connecting the 2 games and nothing to prove it wrong. Don't argue just to prove your theory right. Think about all the evidence, and even though it's hard, try to stop making the facts fit your timeline and instead let your timeline fit the facts. Trust me, it works out much better.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

Oh, and believe it or not, but I don't think that OoT is aLttPs BS, but I do maintain that OoT is aLttP BS in terms of Ganon gaining power etc.

In my split theory, I had something similar, maybe. Explain yours.

Firstly, there's no reason why there could not have been a new set of 'keys' in reserve to release the MS. For all we know the spiritual stones were the first key to open the MS seal, whilst the set of pendants was the second set. Infact, there's no reason there 'wasn't' a second set of 'keys' in the first place. No proof against it. We don't know. I still think that the pendants and stones are the same. They just changed the stones into pendants. Not too difficult. Also, the engravings don't matter either. Your spliting hairs that no one cares about. You're really grasping at straws here. There are a million explinations of how it could easily work. There's nothing even mildly conclusive about your arguement here.

All you have is your assumption about a split timeline--with the TWW conveniently placed on another timeline, to avoid piecing together the mess a single timeline would be. Would you mind filling me in on your split theory and why does it work?

The sages quote I posted earlier is canon--it's in the game--spelled out for you. The sacred stones being keys to the Temple of Time in OOT is canon. The Knights of Hyrule who guarded the Pendant of Courage is canon. The Pendants being used as keys in LTTP is canon. You believing in a 2nd set of keys to the Temple of Time is not canon. (Having two or more sets of keys would increase the ratio of gaining access to the Temple of Time--that's not safe). The Pendants existing at the time of OOT is not canon. You believing that the stones are the same as the Pendants is not canon. There's nothing canon to support your claims about the sage's quote, but there is plenty canon facts to support my claims about the quote. Like you say, "let your timeline fit the facts", right? In terms of the sage's quote..it seems to me...with all your non-canon supported speculation...you are bending the facts to fit your timeline...instead of letting your timeline fit the facts--practice what you preach.

[mohammedali]

In my split theory, I had something similar, maybe.  Explain yours.

Cool. Most of this is a repost, but my idea has evolved a bit since then.

The Imprissoning War

OoT happens and in the process 2 different timelines are created. (suggested by OoT ending and official statement)
The one where Ganon and Link fought (Adult) is the WW universe. (supported by WW Bs and suggested by official statement)
aLttP Bs takes place iin Child Link universe (logical conjecture as it cannot go in Adult Link universe).
The events go as follows (using aLttP Jap booklet and some OoT Child info).
Link picks up the MS letting Ganon (and his army) into the SR. Ganon then wishes on the Triforce. Link comes back in time, having got rid of Ganon in the future. With the entrence to the SR sealed and Ganon trapped, Link leaves for Termina and tells the King about Ganon. The King calls for the Seven Sages (who instead of being the 7 we see in OoT, are all Hylian males instead) and the Knights of Hyrule, and trys to seal the entrance to the Golden Land due to some leaking evil. Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attacks the castle (whilst Link is away). The Seven Wise Sages look for Link but time is short, so the knights take the full force whilst the sages magically seal Ganon in the Golden Land.

That's my account and there are no inconsistancies that I can see. Was yours more or less the same?

All you have is your assumption about a split timeline--with the TWW conveniently placed on another timeline, to avoid piecing together the mess a single timeline would be.

There's nothing wrong with assuming there is a timeline split. Particularly when the game creator says that WW comes specifically after the Adult ending of OoT. If that doesn't suggest a timeline split, then I don't know what does. If it doesn't work with a single timeline then that should tell you a single timeline doesn't work.

The sages quote I posted earlier is canon--it's in the game--spelled out for you. The sacred stones being keys to the Temple of Time in OOT is canon. The Knights of Hyrule who guarded the Pendant of Courage is canon. The Pendants being used as keys in LTTP is canon. You believing in a 2nd set of keys to the Temple of Time is not canon. (Having two or more sets of keys would increase the ratio of gaining access to the Temple of Time--that's not safe). The Pendants existing at the time of OOT is not canon. You believing that the stones are the same as the Pendants is not canon. There's nothing canon to support your claims about the sage's quote, but there is plenty canon facts to support my claims about the quote. Like you say, "let your timeline fit the facts", right? In terms of the sage's quote..it seems to me...with all your non-canon supported speculation...you are bending the facts to fit your timeline...instead of letting your timeline fit the facts--practice what you preach.

Not at all. I agree that those things that you said which are canon are indeed canon, however they do not contradict each other at all. Fine, there were Spiritual stones. Sure, there were pendants that were guarded. None of this contradicts the other at all. I was simply giving you some non-canon ways it works, but if you want to stick to just facts then fine. Tell me, where is the contradiction? Why do those quotes *prove* that OoT is not aLttP BS?

Mohammed Ali

EDIT: Reply to your edit.

You really can't use geography to help explain the storyline to a video game.  The reason things look different is just to have different areas the designers could have us play in.  If they kept the same settings, the designer wouldn't have much to work with in terms using different levels.  But that's not the point, cuz I refuse to go off on another tangent.  

lol. I didn't even start talking about geography. Show was making a whole list of points about why it wouldn't work to have OoT as aLttP BS based on the placing of certain objects. I was just proving him wrong.

So you say...the MS has not been moved since OOT?  The Temple of Time is somehow torn down?  Since you like linking the laws of OOT to LTTP to explain your theories, then why doesn't a door way to the Dark World/Golden Land isn't opened when you pull the MS in LTTP like it does in OOT?  Why doesn't the young Link of LTTP sleep or travel through time, like the Link in OOT does?

That was the whole point of the ending. The door was sealed so Ganon couldn't come back to Hyrule in Child Link timeline. When Link pulled the sword out, the seal was still intact. By the time the seal was broken, Link had been to the SR more times than you've had hot dinners. Also, there would be no reason to keep Link in the SR if he was already of age - which he obviously is if he can fight Ganon (not that it matters much).

Also, I forgot to emphasize that Pendants and the stones don't have the same purpose.  The stones in OOT are used to open the Door of Time--not to 'pull' the Master Sword.  As for the the Pendants, those are needed to 'pull' the MS.  Also, the pedestal in OOT is different from the pedestal in LTTP.  In order for it to be different and have a different purpose...that would require for the MS to be moved out of it's previous pedestal.  This of course, would be dangerous since it would open the Sacred Realm where Ganon is imprisoned.  Why do you think OOT Zelda ordered Link to place the MS back into the pedestal--to close the doors between time and the entrance to the sacred realm.  Why is all this different by the time of OOT?  Explaining it would take [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of non-canon speculation.

The whole pedistal doesn't need to be changed just to change the plaque. Heck, in one of the games (OoT I think), we see that the pedistal says different things depending on what age you are. Hence, the sign could have been changed - it's not hard and we've seen it happen before.
If you think the pendants have different purpose then it answers the question for you. Going by my theory, it would work something like this.
Link uses the Stones to open the Door of Time. He uses the MS and then puts it back. A new lock is placed on the MS to prevent tampering (a direct lock, rather than a door), and a new plaque is placed. These pendants are guarded by knights. The IW happens later (when Link is in Termina or whatever).
Works fine, and don't say it's not canon because it's a theory based on canon ideas. Fact is, it's possible, so your 'evidence' doesn't disprove my theory. A theory has noncanon ideas in it, but its based on canon stuff. That's what I am doing.

The same applies to the statement from the creators, that you believe, implies a split timeline--it's inconclusive.  It could be very well about the dual ending we actually see in OOT.  We see what happens at the end to the future, then Link is transported back by Zelda to his orginal time...and then we see the end of that time.  There's so many ideas u can draw from that statement that--it's inconclusive.

What is inconclusive about WW being after the Adult ending of OoT? We know the adult ending is clearly the ending where Link is an adult. We are told WW occurs after that. This is circled out from the child ending. It can only logically mean that WW is after the Adult ending, and not the child ending - otherwise why the hell would be specify which? It's the only way the statement makes sence. It's also the only way that OoT can be the prequal to both aLttP and WW. With this much reasoning, it's clear what the creator was saying.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

OoT happens and in the process 2 different timelines are created. (suggested by OoT ending and official statement)
The one where Ganon and Link fought (Adult) is the WW universe. (supported by WW Bs and suggested by official statement)
aLttP Bs takes place iin Child Link universe (logical conjecture as it cannot go in Adult Link universe).
The events go as follows (using aLttP Jap booklet and some OoT Child info).
Link picks up the MS letting Ganon (and his army) into the SR. Ganon then wishes on the Triforce. Link comes back in time, having got rid of Ganon in the future. With the entrence to the SR sealed and Ganon trapped, Link leaves for Termina and tells the King about Ganon. The King calls for the Seven Sages (who instead of being the 7 we see in OoT, are all Hylian males instead) and the Knights of Hyrule, and trys to seal the entrance to the Golden Land due to some leaking evil. Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attacks the castle (whilst Link is away). The Seven Wise Sages look for Link but time is short, so the knights take the full force whilst the sages magically seal Ganon in the Golden Land.

So in your theory Ganon's locked away twice, once when Link returns to the past, then another time while Link is away...the Knights and sages help to seal him? This isn't explained in the LTTP BS. It's mentioned that Ganon does indeed touch the Triforce, but it doesn't say he was sealed as soon he touched it. It also does not say he broke out of imprisonment or implicate that he was imprisoned before the imprisonment that we are aware of.

Ummm. How about you try Ganon touches the Triforce in both, gains the title of King of Evil in both, creates the Dark World in both, is sealed away in both. Seriously, you've got to be in serious denial when not only do the same events happen (some of which can only happen once - like being made King of Evil), but it's also confirmed by the creators.

So it's ok for you to say Ganon was imprisoned twice before LTTP, in your theory?

Not at all. I agree that those things that you said which are canon are indeed canon, however they do not contradict each other at all. Fine, there were Spiritual stones. Sure, there were pendants that were guarded. None of this contradicts the other at all. I was simply giving you some non-canon ways it works, but if you want to stick to just facts then fine. Tell me, where is the contradiction? Why do those quotes *prove* that OoT is not aLttP BS?

Because...what's read in the sage's quote did not happen in OOT, that's why.

[mohammedali]

So in your theory Ganon's locked away twice, once when Link returns to the past, then another time while Link is away...the Knights and sages help to seal him? This isn't explained in the LTTP BS. It's mentioned that Ganon does indeed touch the Triforce, but it doesn't say he was sealed as soon he touched it. It also does not say he broke out of imprisonment or implicate that he was imprisoned before the imprisonment that we are aware of.

We see Ganon sealed in the Adult ending of OoT. Link then goes back in time, during a time where Ganon is taking control of the SR. This takes some time as Zelda tells us. The MS being replaced on the pedastal must have delayed Ganon from returning. Hence, in aLttP it says he couldn't find his way back - i.e. The MS had been replaced so he doesn't know how else to get back. This is how he was temporarily stopped. All this info is taken from OoT.
Then, Ganon's 'chi' starts leaking into Hyrule and greedy people start vanishing. The King sends for the sages and Knights to seal the entrence to the SR, but Ganon's forces attack and fight Hyrule (it's not definate if Ganon was with them). They are fought off my the knights, and a seal is placed. This is all taken from aLttP BS.

So it's ok for you to say Ganon was imprisoned twice before LTTP, in your theory?

There is only 1 IW before aLttP. What this theory is saying is that after the timeline splits, each timeline has its own, slightly different IW.
The timeline splits exists from when Link was a child. In one we see the IW happen with Link being a newly awakened adult. This leads to WW. The other happens in the timeline where Link never grew up to use the MS. In this timeline, Link never fought Ganon, and the only IW was the one that happened without Link.

Because...what's read in the sage's quote did not happen in OOT, that's why.

How do you know? Just because we don't see it happen in OoT, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Davo made a big point about this. An inconsitancy isn't when something is in OoT but not mentioned in aLttP or vice-versa. An inconsistancy would be when OoT and aLttP have conflicting accounts of a certain event. This is not a conflicting event - it is not an inconsistancy.

Mohammed Ali

[Mad Scrub]

Could you place FS and FSA in between MM and ALttP, Mohammedali? FSA does explain how the Knights of Hyrule were slain by Ganon and the Master Sword wasn't used during FSA either. Admittedly you have to get around the whole Ganondorf being reborn thing but could FSA be the second part of the Imprisoning War or are there too many inconsistencies? Bear with me, I don't know too much about the Imprisoning War. I still haven't gotten around to finishing ALttP.

[mohammedali]

Could you place FS and FSA in between MM and ALttP, Mohammedali? FSA does explain how the Knights of Hyrule were slain by Ganon and the Master Sword wasn't used during FSA either. Admittedly you have to get around the whole Ganondorf being reborn thing but could FSA be the second part of the Imprisoning War or are there too many inconsistencies? Bear with me, I don't know too much about the Imprisoning War. I still haven't gotten around to finishing ALttP.

I haven't actually played FSA so I couldn't say, but it sounds like an interesting theory. Who knows, maybe it could work. If I'm not mistaken, I think MJ believes in FSA being the IW. Anyone feel like writing up exactly what happens in FSA?

Mohammed Ali

[Vazor]

I'm sort of on-the-fence with the whole "FSA=IW" theory. Honestly, there are some similarities (Sages=Maidens, Ganon sealed, the Knights slain, etc, etc). However, there are some inconsistancies that sort of muddle the whole theory. Could you use FSA as the IW? Yes. Do I? No. I instead put the IW a few generations before LTTP, with no other games taking place in between.

[Mad Scrub]

Originally Posted by mohammedali
Anyone feel like writing up exactly what happens in FSA?

http://www.zeldalege.....uotes faq.txt

I could have sworn I read one of the knights say something about the Imprisoning War. I couldn't find it in this text dump though.

[Tri-Enforcer]

The whole pedistal doesn't need to be changed just to change the plaque. Heck, in one of the games (OoT I think), we see that the pedistal says different things depending on what age you are. Hence, the sign could have been changed - it's not hard and we've seen it happen before.
If you think the pendants have different purpose then it answers the question for you. Going by my theory, it would work something like this.
Link uses the Stones to open the Door of Time. He uses the MS and then puts it back. A new lock is placed on the MS to prevent tampering (a direct lock, rather than a door), and a new plaque is placed. These pendants are guarded by knights. The IW happens later (when Link is in Termina or whatever).
Works fine, and don't say it's not canon because it's a theory based on canon ideas. Fact is, it's possible, so your 'evidence' doesn't disprove my theory. A theory has noncanon ideas in it, but its based on canon stuff. That's what I am doing.

You still have to consider that MS in a different location as well. Spare me the geography lesson about that little backyard, behind OOT Hyrule Castle, growing and spreading into what we see in the nortwestern map of LTTP. That area around OOT Hyrule Castle was too rocky and mountainous for a little backyard to grow that much. Then the northwestern area in LTTP isn't rocky and mountainous like the the northwestern area in OOT. That area is more so flat than anything, in LTTP. Point is geography can't be used as a factor in piecing the timeline.

With that said, the MS in LTTP is not placed in the same area as it was in OOT. Thus it had to be moved. If OOT is part of the LTTP BS, then moving the sword would risk releasing Ganon (of course assuming your theory of Ganon still being inside the realm when Link arrives back in the past and Ganon is trapped).

That was the whole point of the ending. The door was sealed so Ganon couldn't come back to Hyrule in Child Link timeline. When Link pulled the sword out, the seal was still intact. By the time the seal was broken, Link had been to the SR more times than you've had hot dinners. Also, there would be no reason to keep Link in the SR if he was already of age - which he obviously is if he can fight Ganon (not that it matters much).

That's the thing about it though. We don't know what Link did after he went back in time. We don't know if he returned while Ganon was in the Sacred Realm and then locked him in. We don't know if Link went back to a point well before he even opened the Sacred Realm. This of course would mean Ganon still being a threat in the past, but his plans are delayed for awhile, until Ganon finds some other way into the Sacred Realm.

We see Ganon sealed in the Adult ending of OoT. Link then goes back in time, during a time where Ganon is taking control of the SR. This takes some time as Zelda tells us. The MS being replaced on the pedastal must have delayed Ganon from returning. Hence, in aLttP it says he couldn't find his way back - i.e. The MS had been replaced so he doesn't know how else to get back. This is how he was temporarily stopped. All this info is taken from OoT.
Then, Ganon's 'chi' starts leaking into Hyrule and greedy people start vanishing. The King sends for the sages and Knights to seal the entrence to the SR, but Ganon's forces attack and fight Hyrule (it's not definate if Ganon was with them). They are fought off my the knights, and a seal is placed. This is all taken from aLttP BS.

Ganon has been sealed only once between the IW and LTTP. According to you and assuming OOT is part of the LTTP BS and the IW is the other half of the LTTP BS, Ganon is sealed twice. Your 'second sealing' is my 'first and only' sealing of Ganon according to my theory. Your second sealing and my only sealing is the event, that the maiden in LTTP, is referring to as Ganon not being able to get out. You're saying that in your first sealing is what that maiden is referring to, but that can't be if you say Ganon found a way out. I know that you say, it's unclear if Ganon was outside the breach prior to your 2nd sealing...but you still would have to say...'he found away out" other wise his forces or his chi would not have leaked out. You applying what that maiden said to your second sealing, contradicts what she is saying in terms of Ganon not finding a way out.

Further more, even if OOT is related to the IW, Ganon has only been sealed once, in the Sacred Realm, prior to LTTP. The LTTP BS talks about Ganon breaching the Triforce, then launching an attack on Hyrule. Ganon is eventually sealed. However it does not mention...'Ganon breached the Triforce, but was sealed, then he broke out but was sealed again'.

[mohammedali]

You still have to consider that MS in a different location as well. Spare me the geography lesson about that little backyard, behind OOT Hyrule Castle, growing and spreading into what we see in the nortwestern map of LTTP.  That area around OOT Hyrule Castle was too rocky and mountainous for a little backyard to grow that much. Then the northwestern area in LTTP isn't rocky and mountainous like the the northwestern area in OOT.  That area is more so flat than anything, in LTTP.  Point is geography can't be used as a factor in piecing the timeline.

Look. If you compare the two maps, the placing of the MS is near enough the same (i.e. left of the mountain). I've explained what seems to have happened, and it's perfectly feasable. How it happened, why it happened, etc etc is irrelavent. The MS does not need to have moved. This also explains why the Lost Woods are on the other side of the map all of a sudden. As for being 'rocky', this is such a shallow point. The landscape has changed. In any case, we see that there is high ground and low ground when in the Lost Woods in aLttP so maybe that's your answer. Fact is, the MS does not need to have been moved.

With that said, the MS in LTTP is not placed in the same area as it was in OOT.  Thus it had to be moved.  If OOT is part of the LTTP BS, then moving the sword would risk releasing Ganon (of course assuming your theory of Ganon still being inside the realm when Link arrives back in the past and Ganon is trapped).

Firstly, the MS only delayed Ganons return and a more perminant seal was created after the IW. Hence, using the MS after that would not brake the seal (as seen in aLttP itself). Also, the MS wont be placed EXACTLY where it was in OoT. It's impossible for game designers to be that acurate.

That's the thing about it though. We don't know what Link did after he went back in time.  We don't know if he returned while Ganon was in the Sacred Realm and then locked him in.  We don't know if Link went back to a point well before he even opened the Sacred Realm.  This of course would mean Ganon still being a threat in the past, but his plans are delayed for awhile, until Ganon finds some other way into the Sacred Realm.

I had a theory about Link going back to just before picking up the MS (hence Zelda by the window), and just not doing it this time. However, the fact he has the ToC in his hand as a kid made me think otherwise.

Ganon has been sealed only once between the IW and LTTP.  According to you and assuming OOT is part of the LTTP BS and the IW is the other half of the LTTP BS, Ganon is sealed twice. Your 'second sealing' is my 'first and only' sealing of Ganon according to my theory.  Your second sealing and my only sealing is the event, that the maiden in LTTP, is referring to as Ganon not being able to get out.  You're saying that in your first sealing is what that maiden is referring to, but that can't be if you say Ganon found a way out.  I know that you say, it's unclear if Ganon was outside the breach prior to your 2nd sealing...but you still would have to say...'he found away out" other wise his forces or his chi would not have leaked out.  You applying what that maiden said to your second sealing, contradicts what she is saying in terms of Ganon not finding a way out.

To tell you the truth, my theory is fairly adaptable. I'm not 100% in my mind about certain events so it could work with either Ganon being delayed or not. It really doesn't effect it that much. It's not hard to work out how it could be changed to work for different ideas.

Further more, even if OOT is related to the IW, Ganon has only been sealed once, in the Sacred Realm, prior to LTTP.  The LTTP BS talks about Ganon breaching the Triforce, then launching an attack on Hyrule.  Ganon is eventually sealed.  However it does not mention...'Ganon breached the Triforce, but was sealed, then he broke out but was sealed again'.

Fine. Ganon touched the Triforce and wasn't sealed. However, we know from OoT that he was busy in the SR conquring. In this time, the King was told to ready the sages (the ones that are Hylains - not the awakened ones). etc etc. Having said that, it's not impossible that the events of OoT IW (WW BS) delayed Ganon for some reason, and that this simply wasn't recounted in aLttP. i.e. We know Ganon takes a while conquring the SR and then attacks, so if he was delayed there by replacing the MS or whatever, who's to know? and the maiderns statement makes more sence this way as it says he was lost rather than he was sealed. Basically, it could work fine either way, but I maintain that the events of OoT had *some* effect on Ganon's return whether the people of Hyrule noticed it or not.

Mohammed Ali

[Showsni]

In your timeline split, what happens to Link in the adult part? And what happens to Link as a child in the adult part?

[SOAP]

Since when was the Temple of Time behind Hyrule Castle? Not that that geography matters but still. That's quiite a stretch. In either case, I believe the Santuary and the Temple of Time are one in the same.

[mohammedali]

In your timeline split, what happens to Link in the adult part? And what happens to Link as a child in the adult part?

There is not Link in the adult part of the ending because he went back in time where the other timeline occurs. Hence, when Ganon breaks free, there is no hero to take care of him. I don't know what you mean by child in the adult part. There is no child there. The child in the child part goes off to Termina during the IW.

Since when was the Temple of Time behind Hyrule Castle? Not that that geography matters but still. That's quiite a stretch. In either case, I believe the Santuary and the Temple of Time are one in the same.

The ToT isn't behind the castle. The forest has just overgrown over the years. It's taken over a lot of that area over the centuries.

Mohammed Ali

[Showsni]

So, adult Link vanishes from the timeline when Zelda "sends him back in time" - he is actually moved to a different dimension, not sent back in time. And I meant what happens to Link as a child, in the adult split - i.e. in the past, but the past of the adult section.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Hmmmm. All I have to say Mohammed is...where the heck were you over a year ago, when I was like the only one here defending the split timeline. I could've used you back then...lol. All of your explanations have made since to me from the start, I just wasn't sold on it.

Here's my version of the split:

Link opens the Sacred Realm, allowing Ganon in by mistake. Ganon, then touches the Triforce but it splits due to his imbalanced heart. Link is put to rest for 7 years. As an adult Link can wield the MS and be the Hero of Time. He helps the sages in sealing Ganon in the future who still has the ToP. Ganon vows that as long he has the ToP he would kill off the sages descendants if he returned. Afterwards Zelda feels guilty for allowing Link to lose his childhood, so using the Ocarina, she sends him back to his 'original' time. Little does he know that this 'alternate future' will continue to exist without him. The ToC of this timeline splits since Link is no longer within this timeline. Generations later, Ganon returns from his imprisonment upon an unsuspecting populace and eventually kills the sage descendants as he promised before. Ganon remebers his initial sealing and knows well enough that he has to focus on taking out the sages first. With no sages and no hero Ganon is too overwhelming and the people must now put their fates in the hands of the gods, who flood Hyrule to keep Ganon at bay. This leads into the TWW.

In the past OOT child Link does things differently to prevent the 'alternate future' that us gamers experienced. Ganon is still a threat in the past, but his plans are delayed, since Link and Zelda warn of Ganon's true intentions. Of course Zelda would believe Link, since she has clairvoyance or some form of telepathy. Also, Link still has the ToC mark on his hand. More on that later.

With Ganon on the run, Link decides to go off to find Navi and didn't really intend on being away for too long since Ganon is still lurking. Unfortunately, our hero gets sidetracked by mistake when he ends up in Termina. Does he return...it doesn't matter because either way it can still fit in my theory. You could say Link never returns from Termina. Meanwhile, back in Hyrule, Ganon finds a way to breach the Triforce. With no hero to bare the MS, the sages create the 3 pendants and a place a different spell on the MS to give it a different function--no longer functioning as a key. One of the three pendants--the Pendant of Courage is safehoused by the Knights of Hyrule. After so many years of searching for the Triforce, this time around, Ganon has a balanced heart and the Triforce does not split. This makes things even more urgent. In a fierce battle the Knights and the Sages eventually seal Ganon away along with the whole Triforce. This sets up LTTP nicely, which is why Ganon has the whole Triforce up until the end of LTTP.

Why do we see the ToC on child Link's hand at the end of OOT? For the same reason we see the Triforce marks on Ganon, Zelda, and Link's hand in certain scenes at the end of TWW. None of them had any Triforce part after King Nohansen wished upon the Triforce. Then the final battle ensued, but in some cut scenes during that battle we see the three participants with their respective marks, but at other times during that same battle we see some of them without their marks? Seems weird don't it? Sounds to me like a glitch especially the way their marks were appearing on and off during that battle. Then again maybe those marks appearing on their hands symbolized that they had once possessed parts of the Triforce. I think the same can be attributed to child Link having the ToC mark at the end of OOT. Either a glitch or and indicator he once possessed the ToC.

Ok enough with my version of the split. If there is a split then why would Aonuma say that TP takes place several decades after OOT but before TWW? Do you think he means TP takes place several decades after the so called 'adult ending' of OOT? Then that would help and also place TP on the same timeline as TWW. Then again if Aonuma would've meant to specifically say "TP is after the adult ending" then he would've said it. I mean if you're willing to take into consideration his quote referring to TWW as happening after the adult ending to imply a split, then why would he say specifically--back then--what part of OOT the TWW take place after, but not specifically say...what part of OOT does TP take place after. Keep in mind the quote about TWW was made before that game was released, just like the quote about TP is obviously before it.