302 replies to this topic

[mohammedali]

Tri-Enforcer said

From a single timeline stand point, at least to me, all you'll need to do is place LTTP before OOT and have the IW as having nothing to with OOT.  Or you can still place OOT before LTTP, but have a bunch of other games come in between TWW and LTTP with the IW coming after TWW.  In other words, from a single timeline standpoint, [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] could be cleared by not connecting the IW to OOT.

This is true. However, given the fact there are quotes connecting OoT and aLttP BS, not to mention same key events, there should be no doubt that OoT and aLttP BS share common ground. To deny this goes against what the creators obviously intended, and for no other reason other than to support a single timeline. There is no reason to doubt OoT is aLttP BS, but many reasons to maintain it is. If you accept this, it then leads on to there having to be a split timeline, which also has no reason to doubt it, but many reasons to maintain. I don't understand what's so difficult (other than giving up on your existing timeline).

Mohammed Ali

[Showsni]

From a single timeline point of view, there are many reasons to doubt that OoT is the IW. They do share some common points, yes. By placing them as seperate events there are no problems at all - just a few events in history, centuries apart, which are quite similar to each other. By placing them as the same event there are many inconsistencies which need to be got around, such as TWW. By Occam's Razor, it's a lot better to have them as seperate events.

As for split timelines, I have proof that Link is sent back, as a child, by Zelda, into the adult part of the timeline, and thus that the split doesn't exist. As an adult, go and read the plaque under the Sacred Stones. "The Ocarina of Time opened the door. The Hero of Time, with the Master Sword, descended here." Read the child version: "Ye who owns 3 Spiritual Stones Stand with the Ocarina of Time And play the Song of Time."

In other words, the inscription has been changed. And, where there a split, it has been changed in the adult part - because you see the changed version as an adult. But the inscription is never changed when you drop the Master Sword and appear in the Temple of Time as a child. It must have been changed when Zelda returns you to the Temple of Time, the only time you return with the Master Sword.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Quote

(TWW)Once, long ago, he defeated Ganon and
brought peace to the Kingdom of Hyrule...
A piece of the Triforce was given to the
Hero of Time and he kept it safe, much as
Zelda kept hers.
That sacred piece is known as the
Triforce of Courage.
When the Hero of Time was called to
embark on another journey and left the
land of Hyrule, he was separated from the
elements that made him a hero.
It is said that at that time, the Triforce of
Courage was split into eight shards and
hidden throughout the land.

Quote

This is true. However, given the fact there are quotes connecting OoT and aLttP BS, not to mention same key events, there should be no doubt that OoT and aLttP BS share common ground. To deny this goes against what the creators obviously intended, and for no other reason other than to support a single timeline. There is no reason to doubt OoT is aLttP BS, but many reasons to maintain it is. If you accept this, it then leads on to there having to be a split timeline, which also has no reason to doubt it, but many reasons to maintain. I don't understand what's so difficult (other than giving up on your existing timeline).

You can't tell me the MM backstory and the quotes from the TWW don't reference one another---that's obvious. To deny that, goes against what the creators intended. If you're a Zelda fan that's not deeply in bedded with storyline issues, upon reading those quotes and the MM BS one would immediately associate them as referring to the same event.

Quote

(From TWW as told by the King of Red Lions) Once, long ago, he defeated Ganon and brought peace to the Kingdom of Hyrule...  A piece of the Triforce was given to the Hero of Time and he kept it safe, much as Zelda kept hers.

This sounds to me as if Link was given the ToC AFTER he defeated Ganon in the future. Notice how the quote mentions Link being given the ToC after he is mentioned defeating Ganon. I know what you're going to say...'the ToC was given to Link as child once he went to sleep for 7 years...plus as Adult Link he has it'. Hold on.... After defeating Ganon, Link is sent back for the final time. Link could've been sent back to the point where Ganon was still in Sacred Realm causing the Triforce to split. With the way out sealed and closed by the MS, Ganon is trapped, with only the ToP. So in this scenario, Link doesn't obtain the ToC while sleeping, he gets it while awake since the Triforce will still split due to the now trapped Ganon's unbalanced heart. Of course all this happens after Link defeated Ganon in the future that we saw. That is what I mean by Link receiving the ToC after defeating Ganon. Since Link does things differently, the fact that he had the ToC in the alternate future is cancelled out, making this time around the first time he gained the ToC. This is why we see the ToC on his hand as a child at the end of OOT. Zelda sees to it that Link keeps the ToC, since he's deemed to be the most suited to safe keep it and plus it chose him. Later, Link will embark on his journey, that will end up seperating from the land that made him legend and thus splitting the ToC. This will then set the stage for MM and the TWW, on one timeline.

[Fyxe]

If the Master Sword was enough to seal the Sacred Realm, then why bother with the Sage's Seal?

Conclusion... It's NOT enough to seal the Sacred Realm from the other side, and nothing ever says it is.

This doesn't actually go against the point you were trying to make, Tri-Enforcer, but it does mean that Ganon is not trapped just because Link put the sword back. Putting the sword back merely closes the gateway between the past and the future, Zelda mentions this specifically and makes no mention of it doing anything else.

[Showsni]

According to a creator's quote, Skull Kid stole the ToC and split it up using the powers of Majora's Mask.

"Thy force though strong shall be stricken, shattered and dispersed / by one whose face calms rivers and whose voice lulls lunar gods to slumber."

[coinilius]

Uhm, where exactly did you hear that creator quote, Showsni? I've never come across that one before

[Tri-Enforcer]

Fyxe said

If the Master Sword was enough to seal the Sacred Realm, then why bother with the Sage's Seal?

Conclusion... It's NOT enough to seal the Sacred Realm from the other side, and nothing ever says it is.

This doesn't actually go against the point you were trying to make, Tri-Enforcer, but it does mean that Ganon is not trapped just because Link put the sword back. Putting the sword back merely closes the gateway between the past and the future, Zelda mentions this specifically and makes no mention of it doing anything else.

That is true, but who's to say the sages were still not able to induce a seal? Think about, it. The reason Link had to free or awaken the sages was because Ganon trapped them in dungeons. I remember Zelda saying something about they couldn't here the 'call' of the Triforce or the 'call' of the Gods because they were trapped in dungeons during Link's 7 year sleep. I assume this 'call' goes out when evil has tampered with the Triforce. This time around Ganon's plans are thwarted because he doesn't get out the Sacred Realm in time. Since the Triforce has been tampered with and Ganon is not given the time to trap them, the sages can hear the 'call'. So while Ganon's bickering in the Sacred Realm, Zelda and Link gather the sages, now that they've heard the 'call' which awakened their sage powers, they go about implementing the seal.

Here's the quote about the 'call'

Quote

SHEIK, IN LINK'S FIRST MEETING WITH HIM IN THE TEMPLE OF TIME:
I've been waiting for you, Hero of Time...
When evil rules all, an awakening voice from the Sacred Realm will call those destined to be Sages, who dwell in the five temples.
One in a deep forest...
One on a high mountain...
One under a vast lake...
One within the house of the dead...
One inside a goddess of the sand...
Together with the Hero of Time, the awakened ones will bind the evil and return the light of peace to the world...
This is the legend of the temples passed down by my people, the Sheikah.
I am Sheik.
Survivor of the Sheikahs...
As I see you standing there holding the mythical Master Sword, you really do look like the legendary Hero of Time...
If you believe the legend, you have no choice. You must look for the five temples and awaken the five Sages...
One Sage is waiting for the time of awakening in the Forest Temple. The Sage is a girl I am sure you know...
Because of the evil power in the temple, she cannot hear the awakening call from the Sacred Realm...
Unfortunately, equipped as you currently are, you cannot even enter the temple...
But, if you believe what I'm saying, you should head to Kakariko Village...
Do you understand, Link?

[mohammedali]

Tri-Enforcer said

You can't tell me the MM backstory and the quotes from the TWW don't reference one another---that's obvious.  To deny that, goes against what the creators intended.  If you're a Zelda fan that's not deeply in bedded with storyline issues, upon reading those quotes and the MM BS one would immediately associate them as referring to the same event.

This is crazy. You deny the numerous links and quotes linking OoT as being aLttP BS like the fact that both show when Ganon gets the Triforce, when he turns into the King of Evil, when the Dark World is created, when he is sealed in the SR, when numerous people who created the game have also confirmed the link... BUT just because WW says Link walked away from the land that made him a hero - an EXTREMELY ambiguous quote, you act as if it's sacreligous to assume this could be a reference to anything other that MM. Do you realise how much of a hypocrit you're being here? The quote you used isn't even clear. To me it seems like a reference to how he left that version of Hyrule where he was a hero. It doesn't go against the quote at all.

Quote

This sounds to me as if Link was given the ToC AFTER he defeated Ganon in the future.  Notice how the quote mentions Link being given the ToC after he is mentioned defeating Ganon.  I know what you're going to say...'the ToC was given to Link as child once he went to sleep for 7 years...plus as Adult Link he has it'.  Hold on....  After defeating Ganon, Link is sent back for the final time.  Link could've been sent back to the point where Ganon was still in Sacred Realm causing the Triforce to split.  With the way out sealed and closed by the MS, Ganon is trapped, with only the ToP.  So in this scenario, Link doesn't obtain the ToC while sleeping, he gets it while awake since the Triforce will still split due to the now trapped Ganon's unbalanced heart.  Of course all this happens after Link defeated Ganon in the future that we saw.  That is what I mean by Link receiving the ToC after defeating Ganon.  Since Link does things differently, the fact that he had the ToC in the alternate future is cancelled out, making this time around the first time he gained the ToC.   This is why we see the ToC on his hand as a child at the end of OOT.  Zelda sees to it that Link keeps the ToC, since he's deemed to be the most suited to safe keep it and plus it chose him.  Later, Link will embark on his journey, that will end up seperating from the land that made him legend and thus splitting the ToC.  This will then set the stage for MM and the TWW, on one timeline.

But this is all just fanfic. None of this ever happened, and there's no indication it would. Ganon touched the Triforce once. It split once. Link received the ToC and that's that. You can't disprove a theory based on such an unplausable theory. We see Link still has the ToC at the end, and there is no indication that was 'given' to him twice. If anything, you're making my explaination look better by the second.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

Quote

This is crazy. You deny the numerous links and quotes linking OoT as being aLttP BS like the fact that both show when Ganon gets the Triforce, when he turns into the King of Evil, when the Dark World is created, when he is sealed in the SR, when numerous people who created the game have also confirmed the link... BUT just because WW says Link walked away from the land that made him a hero - an EXTREMELY ambiguous quote, you act as if it's sacreligous to assume this could be a reference to anything other that MM. Do you realise how much of a hypocrit you're being here? The quote you used isn't even clear. To me it seems like a reference to how he left that version of Hyrule where he was a hero. It doesn't go against the quote at all.

Slow your roll, and watch who you call a hypocrit. Aren't you the same person that believes the Triforce is split in LTTP, but you go against everything we see in LTTP to bend things your way. My claims are supported by canon by canon facts. Extremely ambiguous quote? Lets not talk about how much of your reasoning for a split is based on an ambiguous quote from Aonuma.

Quote

But this is all just fanfic. None of this ever happened, and there's no indication it would. Ganon touched the Triforce once. It split once. Link received the ToC and that's that. You can't disprove a theory based on such an unplausable theory. We see Link still has the ToC at the end, and there is no indication that was 'given' to him twice. If anything, you're making my explaination look better by the second.

That theory I proposed is at least supported by canon facts. It's a canon fact Link has the ToC at the end of OOT as a child. What's the story behind that? It's a fact Link is sent back into time. It's a fact that MM is a sequal to MM and it's BS references Link beating Ganon via time travel. It's a fact that Link has left the land that made him legend, when he entere Termina. It's a fact that is said that the ToC split when Link left on a journey. You can draw so many inferences from those facts and many others whether it be for a split or a single, fact of the matter is...neither (at this point) can be proven or disproven.

[mohammedali]

Showsni said

From a single timeline point of view, there are many reasons to doubt that OoT is the IW. They do share some common points, yes. By placing them as seperate events there are no problems at all - just a few events in history, centuries apart, which are quite similar to each other. By placing them as the same event there are many inconsistencies which need to be got around, such as TWW. By Occam's Razor, it's a lot better to have them as seperate events.

Well if there are problems created by a single timeline, then this should tell you something about using a single timeline. The link between OoT and aLttP is as obvious as the link between OoT and WW if not moreso. It makes no sence to get rid of this link just to maintain a single timeline instead of changing the type of timeline to maintain the link. There is no reason why a single timeline is correct, but there are reasons (such as OoT being aLttP BS) for why a single timeline is incorrect.

Quote

As for split timelines, I have proof that Link is sent back, as a child, by Zelda, into the adult part of the timeline, and thus that the split doesn't exist. As an adult, go and read the plaque under the Sacred Stones. "The Ocarina of Time opened the door. The Hero of Time, with the Master Sword, descended here." Read the child version: "Ye who owns 3 Spiritual Stones Stand with the Ocarina of Time And play the Song of Time."

In other words, the inscription has been changed. And, where there a split, it has been changed in the adult part - because you see the changed version as an adult. But the inscription is never changed when you drop the Master Sword and appear in the Temple of Time as a child. It must have been changed when Zelda returns you to the Temple of Time, the only time you return with the Master Sword.

This isn't proof at all. The plaque could have been changed at any point inbetween the 7 years by someone like Sheikh who knew the Hero of Time had desended there and opened the Door of Time. Just because the plague wasn't changed straight away doesn't mean anything. Zelda may have had to wait a few years before she could do something as big as change the plaque.

Showsni said

According to a creator's quote, Skull Kid stole the ToC and split it up using the powers of Majora's Mask.

"Thy force though strong shall be stricken, shattered and dispersed / by one whose face calms rivers and whose voice lulls lunar gods to slumber."

That quote wasn't from the creators at all. It was from a promotion for MM that was most likely done by people who aren't actually all that involved with producing the game. i.e. It's not from a canon source. That's like me quoting an advert to justify or disprove a storyline point.

Mohammed Ali

[mohammedali]

Tri-Enforcer said

Slow your roll, and watch who you call a hypocrit. Aren't you the same person that believes the Triforce is split in LTTP, but you go against everything we see in LTTP to bend things your way. My claims are supported by canon by canon facts. Extremely ambiguous quote? Lets not talk about how much of your reasoning for a split is based on an ambiguous quote from Aonuma.

Not only is Aonuma's quote very clear to those that are open to possibilities outside of a single timeline, it is also just another part of the support for a split and not the main crux. The fact remains that OoT is aLttP BS. This is just as established as OoT being WW BS. The fact that the only way to reconsile all of this and connect all the games is to have a timeline split. I'm not grasping at straws like you are by insisting WW and MM from ONE AMBIGUOUS QUOTE. That isn't even sufficiant to bring a little bit of doubt on the theory let alone disprove it.
As for the Triforce in aLttP. If you accept that OoT is aLttP BS like it was intended by the creators, then it would not be possible for the quotes to make sence with Golden Power meaning the whole Triforce. Hence, it would have to mean a single piece to make sence, which is supported in WW BS. This is all worked out from looking at the quotes. Even though I agree it seems more intuitive when playing the game for Ganon to have the whole Triforce, it is not possible for him to have the whole thing AND have OoT as the BS. This problem is resolved if you take it to mean a Triforce piece. Then all of the quotes work without problems.

Quote

That theory I proposed is at least supported by canon facts. It's a canon fact Link has the ToC at the end of OOT as a child. What's the story behind that? It's a fact Link is sent back into time. It's a fact that MM is a sequal to MM and it's BS references Link beating Ganon via time travel. It's a fact that Link has left the land that made him legend, when he entere Termina. It's a fact that is said that the ToC split when Link left on a journey. You can draw so many inferences from those facts and many others whether it be for a split or a single, fact of the matter is...neither (at this point) can be proven or disproven.

It's not a fact that the WW quote of Link leaving the land that made him a legend is a reference to MM. He wasn't even a legend in Hyrule at that point. He was just some kid. To link the two is not only an opinion, but one that seems wrong considering what Link had actually done in Hyrule by that time. In Adult Hyrule OTOH, he was clearly a legend and we see him leave there for another universe.
Also, if we look at the facts and quotes, there is no evidence against what I'm saying. However, your theory not only seems to go against what the ending seems to be showing without any real justification, it also begs the following question - Why did Zelda send Link back after such a long time when she could have done that as soon as he woke up? better yet, if there is a reason why she had to send him right at the end, why didn't she just send Link back in time to a point where they never opened the door to the SR and Ganon never got the Triforce? These points make your idea seem extremely unlikely as it makes the whole of OoT redundant.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

Quote

Also, if we look at the facts and quotes, there is no evidence against what I'm saying. However, your theory not only seems to go against what the ending seems to be showing without any real justification, it also begs the following question - Why did Zelda send Link back after such a long time when she could have done that as soon as he woke up? better yet, if there is a reason why she had to send him right at the end, why didn't she just send Link back in time to a point where they never opened the door to the SR and Ganon never got the Triforce? These points make your idea seem extremely unlikely as it makes the whole of OoT redundant.

If you put it that way, and leave OOT as we actually see it, then all of OOT was unnecessary. Zelda could've been sent Link back at any time to prevent any of that future from happening. But I guess that wouldn't make a good story. It's pointless if you put it that way.

As for the Triforce in LTTP, if Nintendo wanted to make it clear that it's split...they had two tries to show this. One was the original LTTP game and the other was the remake, which was released after OOT. If LTTP Link had the ToC, then he'd be the only Link that had the ToC or was destined to get it, but didn't possesse the mark. Don't tell me about 8 or 16 bit graphics, becasue Oracles was an 8 bit game which couldn't show any mark on Link, but at least it was shown in the Oracles promotional art/ booklet---I didn't see any mark on Link in the LTTP promo art for the original or the remake. Then lets not talk 8 bit AoL Link, who we know from the story that is told to us and the booklet art, has a triforce mark on him. We couldn't see the mark in those games but at least we're told or shown the mark in some way or form. If LTTP has a split Triforce, then it has a piss poor way of emphasizing this.

[mohammedali]

Tri-Enforcer said

If you put it that way, and leave OOT as we actually see it, then all of OOT was unnecessary. Zelda could've been sent Link back at any time to prevent any of that future from happening. But I guess that wouldn't make a good story. It's pointless if you put it that way.

Which is another reason for a split. One of the few reasons that Link would bother saving future Hyrule is it would have an alternate future to the time he goes back to. Hence, he needs to save the future and only then can he return to being a child. OoT isn't a pointless game, but with your theory it would have been redundant.

Quote

As for the Triforce in LTTP, if Nintendo wanted to make it clear that it's split...they had two tries to show this. One was the original LTTP game and the other was the remake, which was released after OOT. If LTTP Link had the ToC, then he'd be the only Link that had the ToC or was destined to get it, but didn't possesse the mark. Don't tell me about 8 or 16 bit graphics, becasue Oracles was an 8 bit game which couldn't show any mark on Link, but at least it was shown in the Oracles promotional art/ booklet---I didn't see any mark on Link in the LTTP promo art for the original or the remake. Then lets not talk 8 bit AoL Link, who we know from the story that is told to us and the booklet art, has a triforce mark on him. We couldn't see the mark in those games but at least we're told or shown the mark in some way or form. If LTTP has a split Triforce, then it has a piss poor way of emphasizing this.

Firstly, the mark on Link in Oracles and AoL are different to the one in OoT and WW. In OoT we know that the mark on Links hand only shows at certain times. The majority of the entire game we dont see Link with the Triforce mark. Hence, it doesn't have to feature on the artwork. My point isn't that aLttP is trying to show a Triforce split, but instead that in retrospect, it seems that this is the only way it would work. As this theory does not contradict the quotes it's not necessary to change anything. However, let's not go back to this topic just yet. First I want to be sure that people are happy with accepting OoT is aLttP BS. If there is anyone that is not, then please state why (and saying because it doesn't fit in a single timeline is not acceptable). After we finally resolve this problem we can move on to other issues, but for now let's work on one thing at a time.

Mohammed Ali

[Tri-Enforcer]

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Which is another reason for a split. One of the few reasons that Link would bother saving future Hyrule is it would have an alternate future to the time he goes back to. Hence, he needs to save the future and only then can he return to being a child. OoT isn't a pointless game, but with your theory it would have been redundant.

My way of telling the story isn't pointless. As for my explanation as of to why Link had to go back into the past, even though Zelda could've ended things earlier? It's similar to your explanation...Zelda wasn't sure if Link was truly capable of being 'the hero'. She didn't know if she sent him back right away, that he'd still grow up to be a worthy hero. She was scared and and Hyrule's fate was uncertain. Once she witnessed Link defeating Ganon, she knew for certain whether she tampered with time or not, that Link is destined to be a hero regardles. Fate knew this, but no one else did. That's why Zelda said at the end that tampering with time was a 'mistake' and she didn't realize the consequences of it (that consequence was allowing in Ganon into the Sacred Realm). That is also why she felt guilty for dragging Link through all this--she didn't realize until that moment that Link was the savior of Hyrule whether she had him tamper with time or not--it was his destiny no matter what. (you can see much of this in the ending quotes of OOT--so it's canon). This is also why she tells him to close the door between time forever, because she felt better about the situation or Link no longer needing time travel. The explanation I'm giving does not make OOT irrelevant. It's relevant because the events that occured gave a young princess hope and certainty. Also, look at it as a twist of fate to test Link's resolve. Yes, many people had to suffer because of her uncertainty but that will be changed once Link returns to the past.

Upon arrival in the past Link informs Zelda of all this and she believes him and feels more comfortable not having to tamper with time. She could of seen all this in Link's head through her clairvoyance and telepathy, and that would ease her concerns that would've lead her to wanting Link to tamper with time. Then later, all that I have explained before will transpire.

[mohammedali]

Tri-Enforcer said

My way of telling the story isn't pointless.  As for my explanation as of to why Link had to go back into the past, even though Zelda could've ended things earlier?  It's similar to your explanation...Zelda wasn't sure if Link was truly capable of being 'the hero'.  She didn't know if she sent him back right away, that he'd still grow up to be a worthy hero.  She was scared and and Hyrule's fate was uncertain.  Once she witnessed Link defeating Ganon, she knew for certain whether she tampered with time or not, that Link is destined to be a hero regardles.  Fate knew this, but no one else did.  That's why Zelda said at the end that tampering with time was a 'mistake' and she didn't realize the consequences of it (that consequence was allowing in Ganon into the Sacred Realm).  That is also why she felt guilty for dragging Link through all this--she didn't realize until that moment that Link was the savior of Hyrule whether she had him tamper with time or not--it was his destiny no matter what.  (you can see much of this in the ending quotes of OOT--so it's canon).  This is also why she tells him to close the door between time forever, because she felt better about the situation or Link no longer needing time travel.  The explanation I'm giving does not make OOT irrelevant.  It's relevant because the events that occured gave a young princess hope and certainty.  Also, look at it as a twist of fate to test Link's resolve.  Yes, many people had to suffer because of her uncertainty but that will be changed once Link returns to the past.

Upon arrival in the past Link informs Zelda of all this and she believes him and feels more comfortable not having to tamper with time.  She could of seen all this in Link's head through her clairvoyance and telepathy, and that would ease her concerns that would've lead her to wanting Link to tamper with time.  Then later, all that I have explained before will transpire.

Firstly, Link is the chosen one, so he is the only one that could be worthy. If she didn't know he was worthy then it makes less sence to wait and see what happens as that would endanger the ToC.
Secondly, she never said she shouldn't 'tamper with time' as far as I remember. The quote I think you're on about is that they 'shouldn't have tried to control the Triforce'.
And finally, if the above doesn't show that it's still irrelevant, you still haven't told me why Zelda didn't just send Link to a time before Ganon had ever touched the Triforce. Why the hell did she send him to the time exact time that he touches the Triforce - there is no good explination for why she would want to do that. This explination doesn't seem to make any sence, and is very fanficcy. It isn't in the slight bit intuitive that this happened in OoT and its not like your making this theory to help resolve 2 contradicting aspects of the canon.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Tri-Enforcer said

That is true, but who's to say the sages were still not able to induce a seal? Think about, it. The reason Link had to free or awaken the sages was because Ganon trapped them in dungeons. I remember Zelda saying something about they couldn't here the 'call' of the Triforce or the 'call' of the Gods because they were trapped in dungeons during Link's 7 year sleep. I assume this 'call' goes out when evil has tampered with the Triforce. This time around Ganon's plans are thwarted because he doesn't get out the Sacred Realm in time. Since the Triforce has been tampered with and Ganon is not given the time to trap them, the sages can hear the 'call'. So while Ganon's bickering in the Sacred Realm, Zelda and Link gather the sages, now that they've heard the 'call' which awakened their sage powers, they go about implementing the seal.
 
Here's the quote about the 'call'

Firstly, Ruto was still a child, and unlike Saria is probably not in the position to be a sage. Nabooru has been kidnapped by Twinrova already.

But ignoring that, the quote you're talking about says 'when evil rules all'.

Also, only Saria is said to be unable to hear the awakening call. But even so, for your logic to work correctly, Saria would need to be in the Forest Temple for seven years. But as we know, most of the sages have only just entered each temple by the time Link awakens. Saria left not long ago, and Darunia has only just entered the Fire Temple when Link gets there, and so on and so on.

Besides all that, I don't see how anything would halt Ganon's ability to fill the temples with evil. He would need to be subdued for seven years, and as I've said before, there's no evidence to suggest that the Master Sword would do this.

And even then, Ganon would need to rule all before the sages even begin to be awakened, which means he *needs* to leave the Sacred Realm.

The only way for Ganon to be sealed in the past is for the seal the sages made in the future to somehow transcend time. However, this is just fanfic, and there is no evidence to suggest this happens at all. You could SAY it happens, but without anything to really back it up, it's still just a bit of fanfic.

[Tri-Enforcer]

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All the tragedy that has befallen Hyrule was my doing...
I was so young...I could not comprehend the consequences of trying to control the Sacred Realm.
I dragged you into it, too. Now it is time for me to make up for my mistakes...
You must lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time...
However, by doing this, the road between times will be closed...

The ToT is connected to the Sacred Realm, thus tampering with the MS leads to tampering with the Sacred Realm, which in some way is connected to Link travelling through time. That's what I'm referencing to. Much of what I explained matches up to this quote.

So why do u Link 'had' to save the future? When it could've been saved in the past...what's your explanation to that question?

[Tri-Enforcer]

Fyxe said

Firstly, Ruto was still a child, and unlike Saria is probably not in the position to be a sage. Nabooru has been kidnapped by Twinrova already.

But ignoring that, the quote you're talking about says 'when evil rules all'.

Also, only Saria is said to be unable to hear the awakening call. But even so, for your logic to work correctly, Saria would need to be in the Forest Temple for seven years. But as we know, most of the sages have only just entered each temple by the time Link awakens. Saria left not long ago, and Darunia has only just entered the Fire Temple when Link gets there, and so on and so on.

Besides all that, I don't see how anything would halt Ganon's ability to fill the temples with evil. He would need to be subdued for seven years, and as I've said before, there's no evidence to suggest that the Master Sword would do this.

And even then, Ganon would need to rule all before the sages even begin to be awakened, which means he *needs* to leave the Sacred Realm.

The only way for Ganon to be sealed in the past is for the seal the sages made in the future to somehow transcend time. However, this is just fanfic, and there is no evidence to suggest this happens at all. You could SAY it happens, but without anything to really back it up, it's still just a bit of fanfic.

Well age shouldn't be a question...was not Laruto in the TWW a sage? Was not Medli a sage in TWW? They were young as well and Medli was not as much ready as Ruto. It seems that once you here the 'call' or are awakened...you immediately know your role.

Ganon will need time to get ahold of all the sages...it doesn't happen in one big flash. What I'm saying is that while Ganon is bickering in the SR building up power, Link and Zelda can just as quickly assemble the sages who have now have heard the 'call'.

[mohammedali]

Fyxe said

The only way for Ganon to be sealed in the past is for the seal the sages made in the future to somehow transcend time.  However, this is just fanfic, and there is no evidence to suggest this happens at all.  You could SAY it happens, but without anything to really back it up, it's still just a bit of fanfic.

That's not the only way. Link goes back in time to a point where Ganon was still trying to take over the SR and hadn't started spreding his malice in Hyrule temples yet (i.e. Child Link part of the game). He could then tell the King to use the current sages to seal the enterence to the SR. This would explain why the sages all seem to be Hylian in aLttP BS, and why the maiderns are all Hylian also. This isn't just fanfic, but is a way to resolve OoT and aLttP, not to mention a likely concequence to what Link would do when he come back in time.

Tri-Enforcer said

The ToT is connected to the Sacred Realm, thus tampering with the MS leads to tampering with the Sacred Realm, which in some way is connected to Link travelling through time. That's what I'm referencing to. Much of what I explained matches up to this quote.

Now that's really stretching a quote if ever I did see, however, it the theory still doesn't hold as OoT remains redundant

Quote

So why do u Link 'had' to save the future? When it could've been saved in the past...what's your explanation to that question?

Simple. If he didn't save the future, the Adult Timeline would have perished due to Ganons rule. He had to make sure they were safe before returning to be a child.

Mohammed Ali

[Mad Scrub]

Quote

Originally Posted by mohammedali
And finally, if the above doesn't show that it's still irrelevant, you still haven't told me why Zelda didn't just send Link to a time before Ganon had ever touched the Triforce. Why the hell did she send him to the time exact time that he touches the Triforce - there is no good explination for why she would want to do that.

Because if Zelda sent Link back in time before Ganondorf touches the Triforce two Links would be running around Hyrule. The Link who had just left Kokiri forest would go Hyrule Castle to speak with Zelda and find that the position of Hero of Time had already been filled and that Ganondorf was no longer a threat because the Hylian sages were able to react quickly this time after being warned by the Link that had just defeated Ganondorf in the future. If Zelda sent Link back in time after Ganondorf had entered the Sacred Realm it would explain why Link has the ToC at the end and if in fact the Sages were ordered to seal the entrance to the Sacred Realm after Link returned from the future surely it would've been better to seal him away with only one piece of the Triforce instead of all of it. What a mouthful!

Quote

Originally Posted by mohammedali
Simple. If he didn't save the future, the Adult Timeline would have perished due to Ganons rule. He had to make sure they were safe before returning to be a child.

The Adult Timeline didn't exist until Link gathered the three Spiritual Stones, opened the Door of Time and removed the Master Sword from its pedestal.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Quote

Simple. If he didn't save the future, the Adult Timeline would have perished due to Ganons rule. He had to make sure they were safe before returning to be a child.

For all Link knows, that 'alternate future' will not happen or will change since he's going back to the past to do things differently. By going back into the past and doing things differently will be his way of saving the people of that time.


Why OOT isn't apart of the LTTP BS:

1) In OOT the Triforce at the end and Ganon is sealed with only the ToP. However in LTTP the Triforce is whole and in Ganon's possession inside the Dark World up until the end. My canon evidence supporting the Triforce being whole throughout LTTP--the whole freakin' LTTP transcript http://www.zeldalege...3gba_quotes.txt . Even better...go play the darn game again!

2.) Here's what a maiden had to say about the Golden Land/Sacred Realm:

Quote

...The Triforce will grant the
wishes of whoever touches it,
as long as that person lives...

That is why it was hidden in
the Golden Land. Only a select
few were told of its location,

but at some point that
knowledge was lost...
The person who rediscovered the Golden Land was
an evil thief named Ganondorf.

They say 'rediscover' as if it the Sacred Realm was lost or forgotten by everybody. Hold up...in OOT there were people who knew the whereabouts of the SR. People like the Royal Family, the sages (particularly Rauru and Impa), Kaepora Gaebora (did I spell that right?) and lets not forget about Link and Zelda. Saying 'rediscover' would be like saying you found something that was once lost to everybody. Obviously Ganon didn't rediscover the SR in OOT. He merely munched off the people who knew. Also, the above quote says knowledge of the realm's location was lost---that knowledge was not lost or forgotten at the time of OOT. Why? Because people knew.

3.) Ganon speaking to Link in LTTP:

Quote

I never imagined a boy like you
could give me so much trouble.
It's unbelievable that you

defeated my alter ego, Agahnim
the Dark Wizard, twice!

Ganon seems so surprised that this green clad 'boy', who looks similar to the green clad boy who defeated his minions to collect the sacred stones in OOT, is giving Ganon and his minions a hard time in LTTP. Ganon doesn't seem to recall the resemblance...he doesn't seem to notice that this green clad boy looks similar to the one that led him to the Sacred Realm in OOT. (Notice I'm not using Adult Link in these examples, Mohammed)

In TWW, who's BS is also slated to be referencing OOT (the only difference is that this BS really does reference OOT unlike LTTP), Ganon remembers OOT Link and even questions if TWW Link is OOT Link reborn:

Quote

Yes, surely you are the Hero of Time,
reborn...

Your time has come...

Come now... Stand before me!

Dang...! Ganon gave no respect to LTTP Link--I mean looked at him as if he didn't know Link. Where as in TWW, Ganon gave Link mad props (seconds later he punches the crap out of Link...but that's ok at least he gave him some credit)

I know you can say, 'well, Ganon doesn't remember Link in other games.' Lets face it...TWW is the only sequal to a 'Ganon game' in which Ganon is around and back as a villain. He was in LoZ, but didn't quite show up to confront Link in AoL. He was in LTTP but wasn't around to show opposition in LA. Ganon was in Oracles and there was no sequal to those. He was in FSA, but there was no sequal to that.

[Fyxe]

Tri-Enforcer said

The ToT is connected to the Sacred Realm, thus tampering with the MS leads to tampering with the Sacred Realm, which in some way is connected to Link travelling through time.  That's what I'm referencing to.  Much of what I explained matches up to this quote.
 
So why do u Link 'had' to save the future?  When it could've been saved in the past...what's your explanation to that question?

Firstly, no evidence, as mohammedali said, you are really stretching that quote.

I believe Link had to save the future because the future is GOING TO HAPPEN. That's why he had to save it. By your logic, he could of just changed the past.

Quote

Well age shouldn't be a question...was not Laruto in the TWW a sage? Was not Medli a sage in TWW? They were young as well and Medli was not as much ready as Ruto. It seems that once you here the 'call' or are awakened...you immediately know your role.

Ganon will need time to get ahold of all the sages...it doesn't happen in one big flash. What I'm saying is that while Ganon is bickering in the SR building up power, Link and Zelda can just as quickly assemble the sages who have now have heard the 'call'.

Ignore the age thing. I said myself, that's a very minor point. I came up with a number of other points as to why they can't and were not awakened before Ganon came into power. You either ignored them or switched off from them once you countered the age thing.

The sages will NOT have heard the call. They don't hear the call for seven years. Ganon needs to rule before the sages can be awakened.

Quote

That's not the only way. Link goes back in time to a point where Ganon was still trying to take over the SR and hadn't started spreding his malice in Hyrule temples yet (i.e. Child Link part of the game). He could then tell the King to use the current sages to seal the enterence to the SR. This would explain why the sages all seem to be Hylian in aLttP BS, and why the maiderns are all Hylian also. This isn't just fanfic, but is a way to resolve OoT and aLttP, not to mention a likely concequence to what Link would do when he come back in time.

CURRENT sages!? Ok, sorry, FANFIC ALERT, FANFIC ALERT, AWOOGA AWOOGA.

...Ok, sorry, calming down now, but seriously, there is never any talk of any other sages other than the Seven Sages, except the ancient sages who made the Temple of Time. What makes you think there are any others? The sages are magical people who appear in a time of crisis, they're not just sitting in the castle somewhere.

The discrepancies between the ALttP backstory and OoT are minor and honestly, don't really matter in the least. The similarities are so intense that any differences can be attributed to retroactive changes under the pretence that the backstory of ALttP is all legend (and that they wanted to make OoT into a good STAND ALONE game on it's own). The fact is, if you change the past of OoT then you remove half of the similarities between the two games just like that, and then you're merely relying on fanfic. What's the point? It also messes with OoT's intenal logic.

As for the fact that the maidens are all Hylians... Yeah, TWW sorta explained this in part already. Makar and Medli were the decendants of the sages (possibly not by blood, but at least by spirit), and they were not the same species as Fado and Laruto.

[mohammedali]

Mad Scrub said

Because if Zelda sent Link back in time before Ganondorf touches the Triforce two Links would be running around Hyrule. The Link who had just left Kokiri forest would go Hyrule Castle to speak with Zelda and find that the position of Hero of Time had already been filled and that Ganondorf was no longer a threat because the Hylian sages were able to react quickly this time after being warned by the Link that had just defeated Ganondorf in the future. If Zelda sent Link back in time after Ganondorf had entered the Sacred Realm it would explain why Link has the ToC at the end and if in fact the Sages were ordered to seal the entrance to the Sacred Realm after Link returned from the future surely it would've been better to seal him away with only one piece of the Triforce instead of all of it. What a mouthful!

This still doesn't explain why Zelda happens to send Link back in time to the point where Ganon just touched the Triforce. If she could have send him back before he did, then she would. If she couldn't do that because there would be 2 Links running around, then she couldn't send him back to when Ganon touched the Triforce as we know that Link was moving between the 2 ages at that time so there was still that chance he would be coming back. i.e. If she sent him back at the point Ganon touched the Triforce, then there is already a Link waiting to become a hero. There's no reason why Zelda would do this, and it makes the whole of OoT seem pointless. I'm sorry, but this idea just doesn't work for the numerous reasons I've already outlined.

Quote

The Adult Timeline didn't exist until Link gathered the three Spiritual Stones, opened the Door of Time and removed the Master Sword from its pedestal.

What's your point? The reason Link opened the DoT was because Zelda told him to. It was a mistake - she says so at the end. However, as a reprecussion, Link had to wait till the right time to come out - by which time Ganon was a real problem and had to be stopped before that version of Hyrule was destroyed.

Tri-Enforcer said

For all Link knows, that 'alternate future' will not happen or will change since he's going back to the past to do things differently.  By going back into the past and doing things differently will be his way of saving the people of that time.

You see, if you go into the future it becomes the present. Hence, to say that these people living the present are just going to disappear is not likely. The MS allowed Link to travel back between to points in time, but not far back enough that he could make such a difference that Adult Link universe would be saved. Hence by using the MS he could not do anything in the past that would stop the future from occuring. However, once Ganon is sealed in the future and the MS is lay to rest, this link between both times is closed. The fate of that universe is now closed. Ganon attacked and was stopped. By replacing the MS and closing the link between 2 times, also makes it difficult for Ganon in the past to escape. Hence when Link goes back he is able to warn the King to call the sages this time, and aLttP BS is set up perfecty.

Quote

Why OOT isn't apart of the LTTP BS:
 
1) In OOT the Triforce at the end and Ganon is sealed with only the ToP.  However in LTTP the Triforce is whole and in Ganon's possession inside the Dark World up until the end.  My canon evidence supporting the Triforce being whole throughout LTTP--the whole freakin' LTTP transcript http://www.zeldalege...3gba_quotes.txt .  Even better...go play the darn game again!

I've gone over this a million times, no where does it say he has the whole Triforce. The word Triforce can mean either 1 piece or all 3. I think the developers may have originally thought Ganon could have the whole thing, but changed there mind in OoT. It's not a contradiction as the term Triforce can be applied to either, just like the term Golden Power is applied to either. Also, if you really want Ganon to have the whole Triforce, then you can have Aghanim sending them to him via a majic portal (like he does the maiderns).

Quote

2.) Here's what a maiden had to say about the Golden Land/Sacred Realm:  
 
They say 'rediscover' as if it the Sacred Realm was lost or forgotten by everybody.  Hold up...in OOT there were people who knew the whereabouts of the SR.  People like the Royal Family, the sages (particularly Rauru and Impa), Kaepora Gaebora (did I spell that right?) and lets not forget about Link and Zelda.  Saying 'rediscover' would be like saying you found something that was once lost to everybody.  Obviously Ganon didn't rediscover the SR in OOT. He merely munched off the people who knew.  Also, the above quote says knowledge of the realm's location was lost---that knowledge was not lost or forgotten at the time of OOT.  Why?  Because people knew.

A quote from a maidern centuries after OoT is not likely to know what secrets everybody knows during OoT. As far as general public opinion is concerned, peeple had lost the knowledge and believed no once else knew any more. Those that knew hardly went around bosting about it as they would be forced to tell by some evil theif like Ganon. Hence the Maidern isn't going to know about these people knowing.

Quote

3.) Ganon speaking to Link in LTTP:

Ganon seems so surprised that this green clad 'boy', who looks similar to the green clad boy who defeated his minions to collect the sacred stones in OOT, is giving Ganon and his minions a hard time in LTTP.  Ganon doesn't seem to recall the resemblance...he doesn't seem to notice that this green clad boy looks similar to the one that led him to the Sacred Realm in OOT. (Notice I'm not using Adult Link in these examples, Mohammed)

Even at the time of OoT Ganon could not believe Link was anyone important. He couldn't belive that he would be the one that had the ToC even though Link had enough courage to challenge Ganon as a kid and had enough courage to get the 3 spiritual stones. Hence for him to see some random kid who as far he knows had done nothing compared to OoT Link, he's bound to think hes nothing. If you haven't noticed, Ganon underestimates Link as an adult in OoT, why should a child in aLttP be any different?

Quote

In TWW, who's BS is also slated to be referencing OOT (the only difference is that this BS really does reference OOT unlike LTTP), Ganon remembers OOT Link and even questions if TWW Link is OOT Link reborn:
 
Dang...! Ganon gave no respect to LTTP Link--I mean looked at him as if he didn't know Link.  Where as in TWW, Ganon gave Link mad props (seconds later he punches the crap out of Link...but that's ok at least he gave him some credit)

Because in this timeline Ganon has actually been defeated by Link. In the other, he simply let Ganon in to the SR and that's it. Not really much of threat to Ganon. Even if Ganon did remember Link for that, he's more likely to think of him as a blundering idiot than someone who twarts his plans.

Mohammed Ali

[mohammedali]

Fyxe said

CURRENT sages!?  Ok, sorry, FANFIC ALERT, FANFIC ALERT, AWOOGA AWOOGA.

...Ok, sorry, calming down now, but seriously, there is never any talk of any other sages other than the Seven Sages, except the ancient sages who made the Temple of Time.  What makes you think there are any others?  The sages are magical people who appear in a time of crisis, they're not just sitting in the castle somewhere.

There are 2 reasons I have put it down to current sages. 1. Because one of the arguements why aLttP BS is not OoT was that the sages seem hylian as do the maiderns. I argued that this was artists impressions and game limitations but people weren't happy with that. Hence to accomodate this difference, I had it that Link tells the King to call the sages (we are told the King calls the sages from aLttP BS), and that these are Hylian men. 2. The other reason is that I assume there was already 1 set of sages during OoT is because we know there were sages that built the Temples. In aLttP the King talks about the second coming of the sages. If we already have the first coming as those that built the Temples, a second coming would be the sages in OoT, hence Agz would be the 3rd coming if anything. However, if you take the Hylian sages to be the ones that looked up Ganon in aLttP BS (which keeps nitpickers happy), then Agz would indeed be the 2nd coming as Saria and crew never became sages.

Quote

The discrepancies between the ALttP backstory and OoT are minor and honestly, don't really matter in the least.  The similarities are so intense that any differences can be attributed to retroactive changes under the pretence that the backstory of ALttP is all legend (and that they wanted to make OoT into a good STAND ALONE game on it's own).  The fact is, if you change the past of OoT then you remove half of the similarities between the two games just like that, and then you're merely relying on fanfic.  What's the point?  It also messes with OoT's intenal logic.

I agree with you. However, it seems to me that there doesn't need to be any discreptancies that really matter. However, things like resolving WW and aLttP need to be resolved. Also, the information about the IW that differs to OoT (like the sages not being able to look long enough for a hero etc) should not be ignored.

Quote

As for the fact that the maidens are all Hylians...  Yeah, TWW sorta explained this in part already.  Makar and Medli were the decendants of the sages (possibly not by blood, but at least by spirit), and they were not the same species as Fado and Laruto.

True. But some people still have issues with this because of the fact that the sages in aLttP BS dont look remotely like any of the other species in Hyrule. My theory can accomodate for the sages being either all Hylian, or all from OoT. If I had to pick, I would choose all Hylian as it leaves less doubt about the connection.

Mohammed Ali

[Mad Scrub]

Sorry to have to bring this up again, mohammedali, but at what point is Link sent back in your opinion? Before Ganon entered the Sacred Realm or after? Explain how Link has the ToC on him at the end.

BTW you could say that Skull Kid unknowingly shattered the ToC. He was the one who drew Link into Termina by horsenapping Epona and stealing the Ocarina causing the ToC to split.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Quote

(Fyxe)You either ignored them or switched off from them once you countered the age thing.

The sages will NOT have heard the call. They don't hear the call for seven years. Ganon needs to rule before the sages can be awakened.

Nah, I didn't forget or ignore those points. I just had to reload. Lets examine the quote about the calling and ruling all then another quote from Zelda later in the game:

Quote

(Sheikh/Zelda) I've been waiting for you, Hero of Time...
When evil rules all, an awakening voice from the Sacred Realm will call those destined to be Sages, who dwell in the five temples.

Quote

(Sheikh/Zelda) The Triforce separated into three parts. Only the Triforce of Power remained in Ganondorf's hand.
The strength of the Triforce of Power enabled him to become a mighty, evil king, but his dark ambitions were not satisfied.
To gain complete mastery of the world, Ganondorf started looking for those chosen by destiny to hold the two other Triforce parts.

It appears after all, at that time, evil does not 'rule all'. The latter quote cancels out what the prior one said or it's just an outright contradiction. It appears that in order for Ganon to totally conquer everything, he must get the other 2 Triforce parts 'to gain complete mastery of the world' or 'rule all'. One can only conclude that the call goes out when evil tampers with the Triforce.

If you don't buy that, then forget about that...I dont' care...so consider this instead:

In the time of TWW, evil did not 'rule all'--he didn't rule anything in that world, yet the sages still had to be awakened. I also know that Ganon had the ToP in TWW but his power was no where as influential as it was in OOT. Once again I can only conclude that this 'awakening' or 'calling' is associated with evil threatening to seize the entire Triforce and the world.

Quote

However, once Ganon is sealed in the future and the MS is lay to rest, this link between both times is closed. The fate of that universe is now closed. Ganon attacked and was stopped. By replacing the MS and closing the link between 2 times, also makes it difficult for Ganon in the past to escape. Hence when Link goes back he is able to warn the King to call the sages this time....

If I'm transported to a horrific future in which peoples lives are devestated and turned upside down, I'd probably think. 'If I go back to the past and prevent the events that caused this situation, then this alternate future will not come into fruition, and these people will not have to experience a future like this.' I'm not saying that the alternate future will be erased or cease to exist, but who's to say that Link knows this will happn or not. For all he knows, Link is probably not looking at that future as 'that universe", but moreso "this universe's" fate will be sealed when I do what I have to do in the past. Like I said before, for all Link knows, he's probably thinking that future will all go away since things will happen differently in the past. Why do you think Zelda called all that happened was a 'mistake'?

Quote

All the tragedy that has befallen Hyrule was my doing...
I was so young...I could not comprehend the consequences of trying to control the Sacred Realm.
I dragged you into it, too. Now it is time for me to make up for my mistakes...
You must lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time...
However, by doing this, the road between times will be closed...
Link, give the Ocarina to me...

It seems to me as if she wants to correct or change everything that has happened...she wants to take away all the 'tragedy' that happened to the people of that future. The only way she can make up for or take away the tragedy is by sending Link back into the past for the final and do things differently. Just like Link, who's to say that Zelda knew or didn't know that a split could occur or that the alternate future could continue to exist. However looking at what Zelda had to say and the explanation I just gave you...it would seem logical that Link and Zelda only believed the future will be changed by sending Link back and nothing else.

With that aspect out the way, then we come back to asking, so why didn't Zelda send Link back earlier using the Ocarina...why have him go through all that? Wouldn't your explanation make OOT pointless? It's like I explained before...although ToC chose Link, Zelda still had to be convinced for herself that Link is capable of defeating Ganon and a wothy hero. Once, Link defeated Ganon, Zelda realized that Link is destined to beat Ganon with or without the use of time travel---it's his fate. However, before hand, Zelda was scared, unceratin, and worried for the safety of her kingdom. Like I said before, it's relevant because it gives a young princess hope and confirmation.

You say if the ToC chose Link, then that should be enough confirnation that's he can beat Ganon? It may have chosen Link but does that mean Link would be able to keep up with it or have it taken from him by the likes Ganon. Look at Zelda, the ToW chose her but does that mean she can't lose it to Ganon or someone else if they attacked her? Apparently not, if it weren't for Link, Zelda would've not only have lost the ToW, but everything else as well. So being chosen by a Triforce part isn't enough--you have to follow through.

Quote

I've gone over this a million times, no where does it say he has the whole Triforce. The word Triforce can mean either 1 piece or all 3. I think the developers may have originally thought Ganon could have the whole thing, but changed there mind in OoT. It's not a contradiction as the term Triforce can be applied to either, just like the term Golden Power is applied to either. Also, if you really want Ganon to have the whole Triforce, then you can have Aghanim sending them to him via a majic portal (like he does the maiderns).

Neither does it mention a split Triforce. You can argue that the word 'sages' was used to replace 'wise men' to be in conjunction with OOT. However, I think it would take no time to include terms like 'Triforce of Power', 'Courage', and 'Wisdom', or words like 'split', 'seperated', 'triforce part' or 'piece' in place of using Golden Power or Triforce alone. It's only simple text, that I think would be just as important as adding the word 'sage'.

Quote

Young man, are you also going
to the mountain to look for the
Golden Power? Just ahead is a mountain full
of monsters. Many people have
vanished in this mountain while
looking for the Golden Power.

Quote

the tribe of
evil, when we are armed with
the Power of Gold.
Ho ho ho... Now, I must go!

Quote

The
wizard has broken the sages'
seal and turned the gate to Hyrule Castle into a portal
linking that world to this. In
order to save this half of the world, the Light World, you
must win back the Golden
Power.

Quote

You're new here, aren't you?
Did you come here looking for
the Power of Gold?

Well, you're too late. It will
obey only the first person who
touches it. The man who last claimed the
Power of Gold wished for this
world. It reflects his heart.

Quote

Yes, I came here out of greed
for the Golden Power, and
look what happened to me... To restore the Golden Land, a
person worthy of the Golden
Power must defeat the man who
created this place...

Quote

But what a mischievous thing
to leave lying around...
The Power of Gold...

Quote

...This world was once the
Golden Land where the Triforce
was hidden. But because Ganon, the leader
of the thieves, wished it, this world
was transformed...

Quote

...The Triforce will grant the
wishes of whoever touches it,
as long as that person lives...

Quote

...Do you know the prophecy of
the Great Cataclysm?
This is the way I heard it...
If a person with an evil
heart gets the Triforce, a Hero
is destined to appear....and he alone must face the
person who unleashed the
Great Cataclysm. If the evil one destroys the
Hero, nothing can save the
world from his wicked reign.

Quote

If you defeat Ganon, this
world will vanish, and the
Triforce will wait for a new master.

Quote

But I will never give you the
Triforce. I will destroy you
and make my wish to conquer
both Light and Dark Worlds
come true without delay.

Quote

ESSENCE OF THE TRIFORCE

Welcome, Link...
I am the Essence of the
Triforce. The Triforce will grant the
wishes in the heart and mind of
the person who touches it.
If a person with a good heart
touches it, it will make his good
wishes come true... If an evil-
hearted person touches it, it
grants his evil wishes.
The stronger the wish, the
more powerful the Triforce's
expression of that wish.
Ganon's wish was to conquer
the world. That wish changed
the Golden Land into the Dark World.
After building up his power,
Ganon planned to go on to the
Light World to fulfill his wish.
But now that Ganon has been
destroyed, his Dark World will
surely vanish. The Triforce is waiting for a
new master. Its Golden Power is
in your hands...Now, touch it and think of
the wish in your heart.

That's every quote in LTTP that talks about the Triforce. Now, I do understand that not every quote about the Triforce, associates the Triforce towards a certain person. However, the quotes that do associate the Triforce towards a person, only speak of Ganon. If Link or Zelda had their respective pieces, then there would've been some possesive setence or quote toward them having a Triforce part.

Quote

A quote from a maidern centuries after OoT is not likely to know what secrets everybody knows during OoT. As far as general public opinion is concerned, peeple had lost the knowledge and believed no once else knew any more. Those that knew hardly went around bosting about it as they would be forced to tell by some evil theif like Ganon. Hence the Maidern isn't going to know about these people knowing.

You're gonna discredit a maiden, who is a descendant of the very sages who sealed Ganon? Sages and maidens are not the 'general public'.

Quote

Even at the time of OoT Ganon could not believe Link was anyone important. He couldn't belive that he would be the one that had the ToC even though Link had enough courage to challenge Ganon as a kid and had enough courage to get the 3 spiritual stones. Hence for him to see some random kid who as far he knows had done nothing compared to OoT Link, he's bound to think hes nothing. If you haven't noticed, Ganon underestimates Link as an adult in OoT, why should a child in aLttP be any different?
Because in this timeline Ganon has actually been defeated by Link. In the other, he simply let Ganon in to the SR and that's it. Not really much of threat to Ganon. Even if Ganon did remember Link for that, he's more likely to think of him as a blundering idiot than someone who twarts his plans.

The point I'm making is that Ganon recalled OOT Link or remembered him. Whereas in LTTP,Ganon doesn't remember OOT Link. I think defeating three of his bosses and opening the SR is enough to remember Link by.

[Koji]

Fyxe, I may be almost a month late - but in response to your ORIGINAL post - I think that the White Sword in LoZ and TMC may indeed be one and the same. I personally believe the names of swords in the Zelda series have great importance. And besides - I doubt Nintendo would let a game slip by with a MAJOR sword named the same as a sword in a previous game. That'd be like saying the biggoron sword can refer to any sword of rather large proportions that was created by a goron. I personally think that this creates an interesting feeling around TMC and the Zelda series in general - that no matter how big the event or how big the hero - it's all forgotten eventually. Or that TMC takes place before TWW and the White Sword was buried with an old guy in the ocean in an area that eventually became a graveyard in LoZ. TMC > TWW > LoZ? It's LUDICROUS I tell you. *looks around to see if anyone wants to argue about it*

[Crazy Penguin]

But how can it be the same sword? At the beginning of the game the White Sword is the Picori Blade and at the end of the game it's the Four Sword.

I'd like to see the Japanese names for both White Swords, maybe they use a slightly different word.

[Fatgoron]

Tri-Enforcer said

You're gonna discredit a maiden, who is a descendant of the very sages who sealed Ganon? Sages and maidens are not the 'general public'.

Why not? What gives the sages, and their descendants any kind of omniscience, or clairvoyance?
How do they know these things?

[Showsni]

Quote

Why not? What gives the sages, and their descendants any kind of omniscience, or clairvoyance?
How do they know these things?

If you're going to be pedantic, we don't know that anyone in any game is telling (or knows) the truth, so we can't assume anything at all. For all we know, Ganon is actually friends with Zelda, and he and she are playing a joke on Link in OoT, and he pretends to be hurt and sealed. We have to take some of what we see at face value, or discussing the games at all is pointless.