152 replies to this topic

[Koji]

The look of the shield doesn't mean anything. The shield in OoT and MM are completely different, yet are supposed to be the same. I don't take designs to determine continuity - ESPECIALLY when it comes to something as stylized as the cel-shaded look of WW and the Capcom games. All it means is that Capcom made sprites out of 3-D characters.

[Mad Scrub]

Originally Posted by Koji
The shield in OoT and MM are completely different, yet are supposed to be the same.

They're not supposed to be the same. OoT has the Hylian Shield while MM has the Hero's Shield. However, the Kokiri Sword features in both games.

[Koji]

*pulls his foot out of his mouth and eats his words instead*
Really? lol, I never noticed.

[dcLx]

It never says 200 years.

Does it?

I don't think so, anyway...

And it would have to be significantly more than that for the language to have changed so as to become completely unrecognizable.

Well I meant hundreds of years...Dang you guys are serious about this timeline..

[Hero of Legend]

[quote name='MikePetersSucks]Oh' date=' but they were. "The Awakening Voice of the Sacred Realm?" And some other stuff. But hey, It's never SAID that Link and Zelda are reincarnated. That is YOUR fanfiction. Dumbass.[/quote']

That isn't evidence. After all, every Hylian can hear the voices of the gods.

And I'm sure you remember exactly where it is stated that Link and Zelda are reincarnated.

[quote]Says WHO? Tetra communicated with Link through a Gossip Stone. Does that make every word out of her mouth fact? The Gossip Stones have to get their information from somewhere.[/quote]

[quote=King]That stone is an enhanced version of the Gossip Stones long spoken of in the legends of the Hyrulian Royal Family. I am the one who made it.[/quote]

Tetra's stone is quite different from a real Gossip Stone.

But you are entirely correct. The stones in OoT have to get their information from somewhere. The answer is that they have the Eye of TRUTH, which can see everything as it is. So, maybe they tell us, you know, the truth?

Also, denying in-game quotes = Bad. Every quote is correct unless the game says otherwise.

[quote]Well I think it's simpler to keep the subject of reincarnation out of a children's video game and just say they're related like the ZELDAS are.[/quote]

That has to be the worst argument ever. If things were simple we would not have to debate the timeline at all... And reincarnation is quite common in fantasy stories today.

[quote]How did it help him in TWW? All the girls he captured were useless to him when he wanted ZELDA. Seems like a mistake to me. Oh, let's not forget that if Aryll was never kidnapped, the Hero of Winds would've never rose up to challenge him.[/quote]

If he had not kidnapped her he would never have obtained the ToW. And if you missed that part of TWW, Ganondorf was very close to getting the entire Triforce at the end of the game (thanks to the actions of Link).

[quote]How is THAT proof of being chosen at birth. So the King found him. Big whoop. Ever heard the phrase "At the right place at the right time?" It's a Deus Ex Machina that happens all the time in fiction in order to keep the plot moving. How do we know Link didn't just land right next to the King or something? Also, I don't think that interview was even mentioned before I said so. Or atleast I never mentioned it.[/quote]

You have a bad memory, right?

[quote=Deku Tree]When the worst of all possible events comes to pass, and Ganon is revived once again...

One shall seek the hero who is destined to defeat the great evil...

That is the destiny the goddesses have placed upon the King of Red Lions.[/quote]

The King found Link, therefore he was DESTINED to fight Ganondorf.

And I concluded that the interview only said that TWW Link was a new Link.

[quote]And yea, the sword kinda shines in Zelda's hands. See that little white aura? Still there.[/quote]

Look again. It doesn't shine at all.

[quote]Either way, there is evidence suggesting that only a true Hero can weild it. Dur. If the seal on the sword means anything, it's probably to test the hero to make him a true hero to begin with. If Link was just able to go to the Master Sword and pull it out without gathering the Spiritual Stones or whatever, then a big portion of his quest is redundant and he's not much of a hero at the time of claiming the sword.[/quote]

Well, most Links were born to be Heroes... I think my theory is more likely. After all, in OoT it was Link's age that determined his right to be the HoT, not his experience or accomplishments.

[quote]1. Says who? Who the hell says they're being chosen at birth? (Besides OOT Link and LTTP Link, I admit. But they had in-game prophecies predicting their arrival. TWW had no such prophecy.)

2. No, not really. I'm only seeing the gameplay mechanics of time travel and awakening the TWW Sages. The completed Master Sword plays exactly the same in both games, but in LTTP, you can shoot lasers with it at full health.
[/quote]

1. Lets see here... LoZ/AoL, ALttP, OoT/MM, OoA/OoS/(LA) AND TWW says that Link was destined to be the Hero. That is every game except the FS series...

2. Fair enough.

[quote]Link is the Hero of Time. It's not a title that can be gained multiple times. They imply that it's a one time deal. A sort of messianic role (Which seems to deify OOT Link in TWW, and no other Link was revered in such a manner.)[/quote]

[quote=Rauru]Only one worthy of the title of "Hero of Time" can pull it from the Pedestal of Time....
[/quote]

See? It can be done again, and therefore there can be more than one HoT.

[quote]I'm sure the role of the Hero of Time leaves a karma mark that can never be erased. Just like how once you're a Dali Lama, you remain a Dali Lama in all your lives.[/quote]

Ganon was reborn in FSA. Yet he is not the King of Darkness until he gets the Trident... It's the same thing with Link.

[quote=mohammedali]No. I said Ganon was ambiguous full stop. That's not what I call ignoring Ganondorf.[/quote]

Then I can say that the King is ambiguous as well.

[quote]There's no reason why Ganon should be all knowing. He doesn't have the ToW or anything. The King seems to know much more about the goings on in Hyrule etc.[/quote]

Don't make me laugh. You say that the King knows more about what is happening in Hyrule than Ganondorf? Yeah, right...

[quote=King]Now, take the sword that lies before you.

It is none other than the Master Sword... The blade of evil's bane.

It is the only sword that can banish Ganon from the world above![/quote]

[quote=Ganondorf]By the way, boy... When you drew that sword of yours out of its pedestal...  

Did you by chance notice how all of the monsters frozen in time down there suddenly began stirring again?

Do you understand precisely what that means? ...I highly doubt you do.

Foolish child. While that sword is indeed the blade of evil's bane, at the same time, it has long played another role...

You see, it is also a sort of key... a most wretched little key that has kept the seal on me and my magic intact!

By withdrawing the blade, you have broken that seal...

(Link charges, has no effect. Ganondorf knocks him back.)

You cannot defeat me with a blade that does not sparkle with the power to repel evil! What you hold is useless.

Go back to the world below, and tell that to the pathetic fools who made this blade!  

Its power is gone, and its edges are dull![/quote]

So, the King made Link break the seal on Ganondorf, and it was all for nothing as the MS was powerless! And...

[quote=King]Zelda...

It is far too dangerous for you to join us in this task.

Fortunately, this sacred chamber is not yet known to Ganon.

It is my wish that you wait here in hiding until we return.
[/quote]

[quote=Ganondorf]You have deceived yourself...

Did you think you'd be safe inside the castle? Foolish...

Now that my power has been restored, there is no safe haven for you!

I have taken your precious Zelda.

And here, you shall fall into eternal slumber![/quote]

And you tell me that the King knows more than Ganondorf?

[quote]There is more than one meaning of the word reborn. Unless the creator told you he meant reincarnation, there's no reason why the definition you use is better than the definition I use. In fact, knowing that the King said no connection would outrule reincarnation so it would have to be another meaning. If there is any fanfiction here, it's with your definition.[/quote]

There is more than one meaning to "no connection" as well. If you take it literally, then the King is wrong, because they ARE connected. They are both Heroes. That is a connection right there. And you cannot use one quote as evidence over the other when they clearly are conflicting.

[quote]Lying or not, the point is that reborn is ambiguous. It's by no measure concrete that Link is reincarnated, and it's not possible that Zelda is reincarnated. The idea doesn't seem to work.  
[/quote]

It would have been unlikely if Ganondorf was the only one who said it, but now there is other evidence as well.

And why is it impossible that Zelda is reincarnated?

[quote]Where does it say the King was told to look for the HoT in particular?
[/quote]

Jabun, the Deku Tree... I know, it isn't stated. But it is OBVIOUS. Saying that he wasn't looking for the HoT is like saying that Ganondorf wasn't looking for Zelda.

[quote]You saying that doesn't make it true. If you're looking for proof, that's not it. Link being reincarnated is never suggested in the games. The only arguement against this is the reborn quote, but given it's ambiguity and the Kings no connection quote, it doesn't seem to hold.[/quote]

And so you ignore evidence by holding your OPINION as a fact. Great. Also, I am correct on this matter. The games ARE the legend of Zelda, and we always play as Link.

[quote]What's interesting about the shield is 1. It was owned by the hero - though it doesn't say it's the Hero of Time... and 2. It looks nothing like any shield we see in OoT, but it looks exactly the same as the shield the Hero has in TMC. That's why I take TMC, FS, FSA and WW Links all to be of the same bloodline. This would make sence as they all have a connection to the wind (with the whole Vaati being a wind sage and all). The rest of the games I take to be part of the Hero of Time bloodline. [/quote]

1. It doesn't look like the Hylian Shield that the HoT's statue has in TWW either.

2. ... Good grief. Do you honestly use the fact that Capcom copied TWW as evidence? Vissual style means nothing. Anyway, if you go by that theory, why doesn't Link have the Mirror Shield in TWW? Because he got it in TMC...

[Tri-Enforcer]

(MikePetersSucks) Inappropriate. You're more mature than this, Tri-Enforcer. Act like it.

(MikePetersSucks) That is YOUR fanfiction. Dumbass.

Inappropriate. You're more mature than this, MPS. Act like it.

One must not talk right, but walk left.

[MikePetersSucks]

That isn't evidence. After all, every Hylian can hear the voices of the gods.

And I'm sure you remember exactly where it is stated that Link and Zelda are reincarnated.

But not every Hylian is awakened by an anonymous force to combat evil as one of the most positions a mortal can take in Hyrule. Also note that the majority of Sages aren't even Hylian.

Tetra's stone is quite different from a real Gossip Stone.

But you are entirely correct. The stones in OoT have to get their information from somewhere. The answer is that they have the Eye of TRUTH, which can see everything as it is. So, maybe they tell us, you know, the truth?

Also, denying in-game quotes = Bad. Every quote is correct unless the game says otherwise.

Since when was that called the Eye of Truth? Show me, and i'll take back what I said, but I don't take something called a "gossip" stone seriously.

If he had not kidnapped her he would never have obtained the ToW. And if you missed that part of TWW, Ganondorf was very close to getting the entire Triforce at the end of the game (thanks to the actions of Link).

Not what I meant. I was referring to the other girls he kidnapped. Y'know-Those ones that didn't even have names?

Look again. It doesn't shine at all.

Look again. See that white outline that only appears when the Master Sword is completed? That's the shine. Zelda is holding it, and DAYUM! Shining-ness >_> If Zelda wasn't worthy, it wouldn't be shining, this is true. But if the sword was complete and it didn't shine in her hands, then she shouldn't be able to pick it UP either.

Well, most Links were born to be Heroes... I think my theory is more likely. After all, in OoT it was Link's age that determined his right to be the HoT, not his experience or accomplishments.

It was kinda both. Even if he was of age, if he hadn't of done what he did as a child, He wouldn't be able to pick it up.

LoZ/AoL, ALttP, OoT/MM, OoA/OoS/(LA) AND TWW says that Link was destined to be the Hero.

I already admitted LTTP and OOT. OOX, AOL, and TWW didn't mention anything about being chosen AT BIRTH, like I said. Destiny can be changed.

See? It can be done again, and therefore there can be more than one HoT.

But the Master Sword wasn't in the Pedestal of Time in the other times it was pulled.

Ganon was reborn in FSA. Yet he is not the King of Darkness until he gets the Trident... It's the same thing with Link.

I'm not gonna start a thing with this, there's enough going on in this argument, but basically, the Reborn statement can be taken in other ways. There's no evidence that the Trident was Ganon's. For all we know it could've been made by the same people who made the Majora's Mask.

And so you ignore evidence by holding your OPINION as a fact.

Hypocrite

Inappropriate. You're more mature than this, MPS. Act like it.

One must not talk right, but walk left.

Yea, that's technically harassment. Kthx. Also note that the quotes were written over a week apart.

[Fatgoron]

Every quote is correct unless the game says otherwise.

I fail to understand the logic behind this.
That would mean that speculation, intention and propositions were automatically correct, if not directly contradicted, making characters infallible, virtually omniscient, and arguably clairvoyant.
Then, if it is contradicted by another quote, which one is correct?(assuming there is equal evidence/reasoning in favour of either one)

The answer is that they have the Eye of TRUTH, which can see everything as it is. So, maybe they tell us, you know, the truth?

I'd say that's worthy of debate. On the one hand they do have that emblem, though it could be construed more as connecting them with the Sheikah. On the other it seems to be implied that it is the magical properties of the Mask of Truth that enables the wearer the seemingly telepathic abilties, and the magical properties of the Lens of Truth than enable one to see the "truth".
I think it's worth noting that the Lens of Truth is prestended as a magnifying glass that one looks through, and likewise the Mask of Truth covers the wearer's face, and therefore their field of vision.

The King found Link, therefore he was DESTINED to fight Ganondorf.

The quote doesn't say that the one the King finds is destined to fight Ganondorf, rather that the King is searching for the one who is, which by inference I take to mean the HoT.

1. Lets see here... LoZ/AoL, ALttP, OoT/MM, OoA/OoS/(LA) AND TWW says that Link was destined to be the Hero. That is every game except the FS series...

OoT and aLttP I agree with.
However, in LoZ Link just happens to save Impa, and is caught up in the adventure, then in AoL it is the [former] King's spell that shows him to be worthy of wielding the full triforce that causes his involvement in those events. In the first instance it was essentially chance that gave him the opportunity to become a hero, and in the second it was his personal qualities that did so.

In OoX Link is said to be drawn to Hyrule castle, and it is stated by Impa that the mark on his had designates him as some sort of hero. I don't recall any specific mentions, or strong inferences, that he was chosen by destiny.

In TWW Link is drawn into events by his own choices. Had he decided against rescuing Tetra, then his siter would mre than likely not have been abducted, and his hand would not have been forced. In terms of the themes present in TWW free will is quite a big one, as Link is asked several time by the KoRL wether or not he wishes to proceed to the next stage of the adventure.

There is more than one meaning to "no connection" as well. If you take it literally, then the King is wrong, because they ARE connected. They are both Heroes. That is a connection right there. And you cannot use one quote as evidence over the other when they clearly are conflicting.

That's not so much a connection as it is a similarity.
Also none of the definitions of a connection could really be applied to TWW Link and OoT Link.
(maybe " a relation between things or events (as in the case of one causing the other or sharing features with it); ", but that's still a stretch, and doesn't sound like it's what the KoRLs was talkign about)

Reborn is a much more specific word, giving us only two possibilities, that TWW Link is either the HoT reincarnated, which Ganon could not feasibly know to be the case, or that he is the HoT after a spiritual or religious conversion, which also cannot be the case since we know them to be different people.

Examining the definitions, it seems infinitely more likely that Ganondorf was speaking figuratively, and that the KoRL was stating things to the best of his knowledge. While any decision either way is something of an assumption, the safer of the two does seem to be that the HoW is not connected, at least in any detectable or discernible way, to the HoT.

1. It doesn't look like the Hylian Shield that the HoT's statue has in TWW either.

I think this is something nintendo needs to clear up for us. The implication seems obvious at first, but even a drastic change in visual style can't really account for the design, shape and colour of a shield changing.
I think the most likely explanation is that one of the HoW's ancestors was a different hero from one of the legends which are alluded to in the prologue.

MPS and Tri-Enforcer, please don't argue. This place seems to be getting an increasingly aggressive and belligerent atmosphere nowadays. I dont think it's difficult to tread lightly, and tell someone why their ideas being disagreed with rather than everyone running around crying fanfiction and making ad hominem attacks.

WWDD?(What Would Davo Do?)

[mohammedali]

[quote=Hero of Legend]No connection is an unambiguous statement as it is an absolutism. If he said there IS a connection, the connection could be a number of things. However, as he said there is NO connection, it means it can be none of those things. The term 'reborn' has many different meanings and conutations. It's not the same thing at all.

[quote]Don't make me laugh. You say that the King knows more about what is happening in Hyrule than Ganondorf? Yeah, right...
So, the King made Link break the seal on Ganondorf, and it was all for nothing as the MS was powerless! And...[/quote]
Even if it broke the seal the King was still correct in saying that by taking out the sword is the only way to beat Ganon. Had the King not advised Link to do so it would have meant that slowly but surely Ganon would eventually rule, but by taking the sword and breaking the seal it meant that he could be finished once and for all... even if it does make things worse in the immediate future.

[quote]And you tell me that the King knows more than Ganondorf?[/quote]As for the safety of Zelda... The King said that Ganon did not know about that place then. As far as we are aware he was correct. However, Ganon found it. The King can't be expected to tell the future, no matter how wise he is.

[quote]There is more than one meaning to "no connection" as well. If you take it literally, then the King is wrong, because they ARE connected. They are both Heroes. That is a connection right there. And you cannot use one quote as evidence over the other when they clearly are conflicting.[/quote]
That's not a connection at all. That's a similarity. We have different words in the English language for a reason. Things like Link being left handed, wearing green, having a sword etc are not connections. They are either similarities or coincidences.
Connection is when two individuals are related (spiritually or physically), or associates. To say there is no connection suggests that none of these are true.

[quote]It would have been unlikely if Ganondorf was the only one who said it, but now there is other evidence as well.[/quote]Who else said anything about WW Link being OoT Link reborn? Provide quotes.

[quote]And why is it impossible that Zelda is reincarnated?[/quote]
Because in AoL we see 2 Zeldas together. One from generations before (who is stated as the first Zelda). The other the most recent Zelda. If she never died, how can her ancestors be reincarnations? It simply doesn't work.

[quote]Jabun, the Deku Tree... I know, it isn't stated. But it is OBVIOUS. Saying that he wasn't looking for the HoT is like saying that Ganondorf wasn't looking for Zelda.[/quote]lol. As convincing as that was, we still use a little thing called evidence. Unless it's proven, it's not a given. The King was looking for a hero because the world needed one. It says nothing about the HoT, and you saying it's obvious doesn't make it any more true.

[quote]And so you ignore evidence by holding your OPINION as a fact. Great. Also, I am correct on this matter. The games ARE the legend of Zelda, and we always play as Link.[/quote]
I'm not the one saying that because the King is *obviously* looking for the HoT we should consider it a fact. I'm just using the canon. The game says no connection - there is no use of opinion when taking that as meaning there is no connection. There is a very bias opinion and fanficcing when taking that statement to be untrue.

[quote]1. It doesn't look like the Hylian Shield that the HoT's statue has in TWW either.[/quote]Cool. I guess that further supports the idea it may not have been from the Hero of Time at all then.

[quote]2. ... Good grief. Do you honestly use the fact that Capcom copied TWW as evidence? Vissual style means nothing. Anyway, if you go by that theory, why doesn't Link have the Mirror Shield in TWW? Because he got it in TMC...[/quote]
I'm not saying it's all concrete proof at all. I was suggesting a theory. The fact that in MC and FS games we see Link fighting a Wind Mage, and in WW he becomes Hero of the Wind made me think there is a link. To then see a shield in TMC that is later in WW as a family heirloom made me think that there was a trend in the bloodline. I think there are 2 bloodlines of Links in either timeline... The Heroes of Time and the Heroes of Wind... but it's just my personal take on the games and I have no problems with people not accepting it. It makes sence to me.

Mohammed Ali

[martinDTanderson]

I'm sure TSA will unveil the full Zelda Timeline once his NDA run's out, keep checking his Japan Trip Articles...

[Hero of Legend]

[quote=MikePetersSucks]But not every Hylian is awakened by an anonymous force to combat evil as one of the most positions a mortal can take in Hyrule. Also note that the majority of Sages aren't even Hylian.[/quote]

The other races of Hyrule seem to be connected to the gods as well. But why are we arguing about this? I actually agree with you about this. Ah well...

[quote]Since when was that called the Eye of Truth? Show me, and i'll take back what I said, but I don't take something called a "gossip" stone seriously.[/quote]

Well, the Eye of Truth is the Lens of Truth, and it is the Sheikah Eye seen on the Gossip Stones. The Sheikah made the Lens of Truth, the Mask of Truth and the Gossip Stones. It only makes sense that they have similar powers. Or do you doubt the power of the Lens of Truth?

[quote]Not what I meant. I was referring to the other girls he kidnapped. Y'know-Those ones that didn't even have names?[/quote]

Huh? Ganondorf only kidnapped three girls, and all of them had names.

[quote]Look again. See that white outline that only appears when the Master Sword is completed? That's the shine. Zelda is holding it, and DAYUM! Shining-ness >_> If Zelda wasn't worthy, it wouldn't be shining, this is true. But if the sword was complete and it didn't shine in her hands, then she shouldn't be able to pick it UP either.[/quote]

No it doesn't shine when Zelda holds it! Don't bother replying until you re-play the cut-scene before the final battle or go to http://speeddemosarc...daWindWaker_642 and watch "The Fate of Hyrule" segment, then admit your error! Seriously, I'm watching it this very second. The MS does NOT shine. It is surrounded by a white aura while Link holds it, it is missing whenever he doesn't hold it.

And Zelda would be able to pull it since it wasn't in the PoT.

[quote]It was kinda both. Even if he was of age, if he hadn't of done what he did as a child, He wouldn't be able to pick it up.[/quote]

The Spiritual Stones and the OoT were only made to open the Door of Time. They didn't have anything to do with the MS.

[quote]I already admitted LTTP and OOT. OOX, AOL, and TWW didn't mention anything about being chosen AT BIRTH, like I said. Destiny can be changed.[/quote]

OoA/OoS Link was chosen because he had the Triforce crest on his hand. We must assume that he had it since birth since the games don't say anything about it.

AoL Link had "a special inborn quality", thus he was chosen since birth.

And we don't know if destiny REALLY can be changed. But if it can, it can only be done with the Triforce. And nobody wished with it until the end of TWW...

[quote]But the Master Sword wasn't in the Pedestal of Time in the other times it was pulled.[/quote]

No, but I never said that any other Link was the Hero of Time. I only proved that it CAN happen. Also, as far as we know, the MS will be in the PoT in TP...

[quote]I'm not gonna start a thing with this, there's enough going on in this argument, but basically, the Reborn statement can be taken in other ways. There's no evidence that the Trident was Ganon's. For all we know it could've been made by the same people who made the Majora's Mask.[/quote]

So you say that the same Ganon became the King of Evil twice? Right... Nonetheless, my point still stands.

[quote=Fatgoron]I fail to understand the logic behind this.
That would mean that speculation, intention and propositions were automatically correct, if not directly contradicted, making characters infallible, virtually omniscient, and arguably clairvoyant.
Then, if it is contradicted by another quote, which one is correct?(assuming there is equal evidence/reasoning in favour of either one)[/quote]

Everything said in a game has been placed there by the creators. A character is never wrong/lying unless it was intended to be that way. If the creators intend for a character to lie they (almost) always tell the player that it was a lie during the course of the game. Thus every character that isn't contradicted is correct.

Now, if we have two contradicting statements it is up to the player to decide which one is right. You pick the one that is most probable. However, both statements were put there for a reason and therefore both statements might hold some level of truth.

[quote]I'd say that's worthy of debate. On the one hand they do have that emblem, though it could be construed more as connecting them with the Sheikah. On the other it seems to be implied that it is the magical properties of the Mask of Truth that enables the wearer the seemingly telepathic abilties, and the magical properties of the Lens of Truth than enable one to see the "truth".
I think it's worth noting that the Lens of Truth is prestended as a magnifying glass that one looks through, and likewise the Mask of Truth covers the wearer's face, and therefore their field of vision.[/quote]

Well, since the Mask of Truth actually can read people's minds/hearts, it makes the Gossip Stones fairly credible. And it is still the Eye of Truth.

[quote]The quote doesn't say that the one the King finds is destined to fight Ganondorf, rather that the King is searching for the one who is, which by inference I take to mean the HoT.[/quote]

Yes. And the fact that he found Link makes him the "HoT", no? I doubt that the Goddesses would send the King on a search for the dead HoT...

[quote]However, in LoZ Link just happens to save Impa, and is caught up in the adventure, then in AoL it is the [former] King's spell that shows him to be worthy of wielding the full triforce that causes his involvement in those events. In the first instance it was essentially chance that gave him the opportunity to become a hero, and in the second it was his personal qualities that did so.[/quote]

But the spell only affected Link because he had a special ability. The King even says that Link is the only one who can control the Triforce after his death.

[quote]In OoX Link is said to be drawn to Hyrule castle, and it is stated by Impa that the mark on his had designates him as some sort of hero. I don't recall any specific mentions, or strong inferences, that he was chosen by destiny.[/quote]

[quote=Spirit of Summer]Ancient Hylian legends say the hero destined to overthrow evil has a (piece of Triforce symbol) on his left hand. Perhaps you are this hero.[/quote]

This is exactly like in ALttP, so if ALttP Link is chosen it means that OoA/OoS Link is chosen as well.

[quote]In TWW Link is drawn into events by his own choices. Had he decided against rescuing Tetra, then his siter would mre than likely not have been abducted, and his hand would not have been forced. In terms of the themes present in TWW free will is quite a big one, as Link is asked several time by the KoRL wether or not he wishes to proceed to the next stage of the adventure. [/quote]

TWW is exactly the same as OoT, you mean?

If Link had not entered the Deku Tree he would never had become a Hero. And Link is repeatedly given a "Yes/No" choice if he wants to help people, ect.

[quote]Examining the definitions, it seems infinitely more likely that Ganondorf was speaking figuratively, and that the KoRL was stating things to the best of his knowledge. While any decision either way is something of an assumption, the safer of the two does seem to be that the HoW is not connected, at least in any detectable or discernible way, to the HoT.[/quote]

Well, you have to take creators intent in mind when you give judgement on these matters. Ganondorf would know if the creators wanted him to. And why did they chose the word "reborn" if he wasn't reborn?

Besides, Link pulled the MS. That is a "detectable" connection, as only THE Hero can pull it.

[quote name='mohammedali]No connection is an unambiguous statement as it is an absolutism. If he said there IS a connection' date=' the connection could be a number of things. However, as he said there is NO connection, it means it can be none of those things. The term 'reborn' has many different meanings and conutations. It's not the same thing at all.[/quote']

True... But what makes the King infallible? The game gives us reason to doubt his words, he even says so himself! My point is that his statement is not an ultimate fact.

[quote]Even if it broke the seal the King was still correct in saying that by taking out the sword is the only way to beat Ganon. Had the King not advised Link to do so it would have meant that slowly but surely Ganon would eventually rule, but by taking the sword and breaking the seal it meant that he could be finished once and for all... even if it does make things worse in the immediate future.
[/quote]

That isn't what I was saying. You cannot escape the fact that the King was wrong about the MS. He had no idea that it was powerless. It would have been a lot smarter to do the Temples BEFORE Link pulled the MS.

[quote]As for the safety of Zelda... The King said that Ganon did not know about that place then. As far as we are aware he was correct. However, Ganon found it. The King can't be expected to tell the future, no matter how wise he is.[/quote]

No, but Ganondorf proved that he was smarter than the King.

[quote]That's not a connection at all. That's a similarity. We have different words in the English language for a reason. Things like Link being left handed, wearing green, having a sword etc are not connections. They are either similarities or coincidences.  
Connection is when two individuals are related (spiritually or physically), or associates. To say there is no connection suggests that none of these are true. [/quote]

Saying that the similarities between the Links are coincidences is rather ignorant. Obviously they are connected by destiny, ect.

[quote]Who else said anything about WW Link being OoT Link reborn? Provide quotes.[/quote]

I give up... If you can't even remember what we have been talking about in this topic then there is no reason for me to state it again.

[quote]Because in AoL we see 2 Zeldas together. One from generations before (who is stated as the first Zelda). The other the most recent Zelda. If she never died, how can her ancestors be reincarnations? It simply doesn't work.[/quote]

Hah! Remember that ALL princesses between AoL's BS and LoZ were named Zelda? Did all of them fight Ganon together with Link? No. Did AoL's BS Zelda fight Ganon together with Link? No. Is she a princess named "Zelda"? Yes. Is she "Princess Zelda" who fights Ganon together with Link? NO. Thus we can say that she isn't the same Zelda (or reincarnation of her). Therefore there is no problem with two Zeldas at the same time. This isn't even an explanation, it is a fact!

[quote]lol. As convincing as that was, we still use a little thing called evidence. Unless it's proven, it's not a given. The King was looking for a hero because the world needed one. It says nothing about the HoT, and you saying it's obvious doesn't make it any more true.[/quote]

So Ganondorf wasn't looking for Zelda in TWW? Because that is never "proven" either.

And the King was looking for the HoT, unless you ignore evidence...

[quote=Deku Tree]When the worst of all possible events comes to pass, and Ganon is revived once again...

One shall seek the hero who is destined to defeat the great evil...

That is the destiny the goddesses have placed upon the King of Red Lions.

Since that day, he has been sailing the Great Sea in search of a young hero not unlike yourself.[/quote]

Either he was looking for the HoT or Link "the chosen one". No matter which interpretation you choose, I am still correct.

[quote]I'm not the one saying that because the King is *obviously* looking for the HoT we should consider it a fact. I'm just using the canon. The game says no connection - there is no use of opinion when taking that as meaning there is no connection. There is a very bias opinion and fanficcing when taking that statement to be untrue.[/quote]

You seem to be totally oblivious to the fact that Zelda is a video game, but it is. Ever heard of phenomena called "plot twist"? That's right. That is when something changes in the storyline. Who says that this wasn't a plot twist? You can't. In fact, it seems extremely likely to be the case as the game never contradicts Ganondorf's words after that point.

[quote name='martinDTanderson ]I'm sure TSA will unveil the full Zelda Timeline once his NDA run's out' date=' keep checking his Japan Trip Articles...[/quote']

Um... No. Aonuma said that there was no complete timeline as of now.

[MikePetersSucks]

No it doesn't shine when Zelda holds it! Don't bother replying until you re-play the cut-scene before the final battle or go to http://speeddemosarc...daWindWaker_642 and watch "The Fate of Hyrule" segment, then admit your error! Seriously, I'm watching it this very second. The MS does NOT shine. It is surrounded by a white aura while Link holds it, it is missing whenever he doesn't hold it.

Um...there's no video, so what's your point?

And Zelda would be able to pull it since it wasn't in the PoT.

The Spiritual Stones and the OoT were only made to open the Door of Time. They didn't have anything to do with the MS.

He still needs to prove himself a hero regardless. Having it be inborn doesn't cut for shit or LTTP Link wouldn't need to gather the Pendants.

OoA/OoS Link was chosen because he had the Triforce crest on his hand. We must assume that he had it since birth since the games don't say anything about it.

OOX Link didn't have the crest on his hand in the cutscene where he confronted the Triforce, and if he did, he'd probably be revered as a Messiah figure BEFORE his adventure even started, and that's just not Zelda's style.

And we don't know if destiny REALLY can be changed. But if it can, it can only be done with the Triforce. And nobody wished with it until the end of TWW...

The Gods should be able to change the destiny of their own creations, which they do to TWW Link a lot in the game. There's dialogue everywhere.

So you say that the same Ganon became the King of Evil twice? Right... Nonetheless, my point still stands.

Just like Link became the Hero of Time...like, thrice? Whatever, hypocrite.

Yes. And the fact that he found Link makes him the "HoT", no? I doubt that the Goddesses would send the King on a search for the dead HoT...

I doubt the Goddesses would send the King on a quest to find someone who hasn't even been born yet either. Regardless, you gotta keep in mind that Link landed pretty much right next to him.

But the spell only affected Link because he had a special ability. The King even says that Link is the only one who can control the Triforce after his death.

No, it effected him because he met the specifications (Equalibrium of Power, Courage, and Wisdom in his heart, which the Triforce needs to be controlled) an Ability is not synonymous with quality. by "inborn quality" we can infer, from OOT's release, that it's the balance of the three virtues that caused the spell to select Link. You don't need an "ability" to control the Triforce anyway. Besides, Link was born outside of Hyrule. The King's spell only effected everything within the boundaries of Hyrule. Thusly, LOZ/AOL Link was NOT chosen at birth.

If Link had not entered the Deku Tree he would never had become a Hero. And Link is repeatedly given a "Yes/No" choice if he wants to help people, ect.

But that's not a true choice. You can ask someone a Yes/No question all you want, but it doesn't change anything. Ganon could ask Link if he wants to die or not but still kill him either way (or try, it doesn't matter.) In OOT, he was instructed by his "God" to enter him. How can he seriously say no? He can't. He could tell the Princess that he doesn't want to collect these stones for her, but he's in her chamber surrounded by guards, most likely. Can he refuse? No. The game continues on in this fashion.

Well, you have to take creators intent in mind when you give judgement on these matters. Ganondorf would know if the creators wanted him to. And why did they chose the word "reborn" if he wasn't reborn?

Besides, Link pulled the MS. That is a "detectable" connection, as only THE Hero can pull it.

There is no "THE" Hero. Anyone who's worthy of the Master Sword can pull it out. The word "reborn" was used for it's symbolic meaning. Most people don't honestly believe that the Master Sword sleeps forever after LTTP. For one thing, it's not literally sleeping. The same can apply for Reborn. Reborn could be used in the context that a child is standing before him carrying Link's legacy (the HoT's soul aside) I mean, this kid has the Triforce of Courage, the Master Sword, and he looks just like his adversary. Keep in mind that Ganondorf was clingy to the past just like the King. I mean, do you want to tell me that Ganondorf can see into people's souls now?

True... But what makes the King infallible? The game gives us reason to doubt his words, he even says so himself! My point is that his statement is not an ultimate fact.

Neither are Ganondorf's.

No, but Ganondorf proved that he was smarter than the King.

He did? I don't know, but I don't think finding out where a poorly hidden stairway leads to accounts for.

I give up... If you can't even remember what we have been talking about in this topic then there is no reason for me to state it again.

Oh I remember. It's just that your quotes don't mean jack shit.

"Chosen One" and "Hero" do not bring "Reincarnation" and "Reborn" to mind.

Hah! Remember that ALL princesses between AoL's BS and LoZ were named Zelda? Did all of them fight Ganon together with Link? No. Did AoL's BS Zelda fight Ganon together with Link? No. Is she a princess named "Zelda"? Yes. Is she "Princess Zelda" who fights Ganon together with Link? NO. Thus we can say that she isn't the same Zelda (or reincarnation of her). Therefore there is no problem with two Zeldas at the same time. This isn't even an explanation, it is a fact!

How do YOU know she didn't fight Ganon? For all we know, she could've been OOX Zelda.

So Ganondorf wasn't looking for Zelda in TWW? Because that is never "proven" either.

Actually, it IS proven.

"My Triforce of Power...is resonating? Yes, you must be it! Princess ZELDA, the Hylian I've been searching for." Or something to that effect.

Um... No. Aonuma said that there was no complete timeline as of now.

Wow, missed the sarcasm?

[coinilius]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Link DID have the Triforce crest on his hand in the cutscene before he confronts the Triforce in the Oracle games.... but for the life of me, I can't find any screenshots of it on the internet at the moment. Fire up your GameBoy and have a look at his hand in the close up of him when he's on his horse and you can see it.

Of course, he has already been 'called' to the castle, so perhaps the mark appeared on his hand when he started feeling the 'strange force' that drew him to the Triforce.

[TSA]

Part IV of my Aonuma feature will drop a bombshell...

January...

[Hero of Legend]

He still needs to prove himself a hero regardless. Having it be inborn doesn't cut for shit or LTTP Link wouldn't need to gather the Pendants.

No, that was different. ALttP Link needed to gather the Pendants because they were needed to pull the MS. OoT never says that the Spiritual Stones are needed so you are jumping to conclusions. Also, do you realise that you just proved me right? Every Link has to prove himself, no matter if he is chosen. You have just nullified your argument against TWW Link being chosen. Good job!

OOX Link didn't have the crest on his hand in the cutscene where he confronted the Triforce, and if he did, he'd probably be revered as a Messiah figure BEFORE his adventure even started, and that's just not Zelda's style.

He had it. And nobody except special people like Impa makes a comment about the Triforce crest. It seems that the common people don't know what it is and don't care about it. So your "messiah" thing is just fan fiction.

The Gods should be able to change the destiny of their own creations, which they do to TWW Link a lot in the game. There's dialogue everywhere.

Mind providing quotes? Besides, you won't find someone saying "The Goddesses changed Link's fate", and since you won't accept anything but direct statements...

Just like Link became the Hero of Time...like, thrice? Whatever, hypocrite.

Um... No, he only became the HoT once. And do you understand the meaning of "hypocrite"? I never said anything about Link becoming the HoT more than once so I can't be hypocritical...

I doubt the Goddesses would send the King on a quest to find someone who hasn't even been born yet either. Regardless, you gotta keep in mind that Link landed pretty much right next to him.

The King was destined to search for the Hero AFTER Ganondorf had returned. And I think the Goddesses would know when to send the Hero anyway...

As for how the King found Link. He says "Link... I have been watching you since you went to the Forsaken Fortress to rescue your sister." But it doesn't matter because the King still found him and chose him. There is nothing else that matters.

No, it effected him because he met the specifications (Equalibrium of Power, Courage, and Wisdom in his heart, which the Triforce needs to be controlled) an Ability is not synonymous with quality. by "inborn quality" we can infer, from OOT's release, that it's the balance of the three virtues that caused the spell to select Link. You don't need an "ability" to control the Triforce anyway. Besides, Link was born outside of Hyrule. The King's spell only effected everything within the boundaries of Hyrule. Thusly, LOZ/AOL Link was NOT chosen at birth.

You are wrong in so many ways...

1. AoL says: "It is necessary to have a heart free of evil, and a strong character. However, it is also necessary to have special innate qualities." And the translators says: "Qualities probably plural. Umarenagara means carry from birth, like a "born" poet. The innate quality needed might be the fate of being a chosen hero of the gods, as Link is in most other games."

2. The King's spell has nothing to do with having a balanced heart. He says: "However, if another person uses the Triforce before that, what will happen? If it is misused, it will produce various evils." It is different from what OoT says, so don't change facts.

3. We don't know if Link was born in Hyrule. However, this doesn't matter. The King ruled over a much a larger Kingdom of Hyrule. It might have been the entire world (as the Triforce is said to make you the ruler of the world) Link was most likely born inside the boundaries of the old Hyrule.

There is no "THE" Hero. Anyone who's worthy of the Master Sword can pull it out.

...

It is the Triforce of Courage--proof that you are indeed the true hero.

The word "reborn" was used for it's symbolic meaning.

How stupid of you to think that. If it was symbolic they could have made Ganondorf say "Yes... You certainly are like the Hero of Time, reborn..." or something.

Most people don't honestly believe that the Master Sword sleeps forever after LTTP. For one thing, it's not literally sleeping. The same can apply for Reborn. Reborn could be used in the context that a child is standing before him carrying Link's legacy (the HoT's soul aside) I mean, this kid has the Triforce of Courage, the Master Sword, and he looks just like his adversary. Keep in mind that Ganondorf was clingy to the past just like the King. I mean, do you want to tell me that Ganondorf can see into people's souls now?

Remember what the King said when he saw that Link got the ToC? Yeah, that's evidence by itself. We also have the MS, ect. Of course, Ganondorf knows because the creators wanted him to. There is no arguing with that. Also, I'm not seeing you question how the King knows that Link isn't connected to the HoT...

Oh I remember. It's just that your quotes don't mean jack shit.

"Chosen One" and "Hero" do not bring "Reincarnation" and "Reborn" to mind.

I wasn't talking to you... And you don't remember either.

How do YOU know she didn't fight Ganon? For all we know, she could've been OOX Zelda.

Cut the crap! Your personal fan fiction doesn't change facts. From what we know we can be certain that she hasn't been in any game. Or do any Zelda have a known brother?

Actually, it IS proven.

"My Triforce of Power...is resonating? Yes, you must be it! Princess ZELDA, the Hylian I've been searching for." Or something to that effect.

Way to put words in Ganondorf's mouth. He actually says: "My Triforce of Power is resonating! Ha! At long last, I have found you... Princess Zelda!" But that doesn't prove that he sent the Helmaroc King to find HER, it might have been someone else. Or at least you say so about the KoRL and Link...

Part IV of my Aonuma feature will drop a bombshell...

January...

About what? Reincarnation or the timeline? In whichever case, I can't wait.

[mohammedali]

True... But what makes the King infallible? The game gives us reason to doubt his words, he even says so himself! My point is that his statement is not an ultimate fact.

The problem with that is if we start doubting quotes then anything can be called into question. This is why we generally take quotes to be gospel if there is no clear reason to doubt them, particularly when the quote is from either a sage or someone from the Royal family.

That isn't what I was saying. You cannot escape the fact that the King was wrong about the MS. He had no idea that it was powerless. It would have been a lot smarter to do the Temples BEFORE Link pulled the MS.

It may have been smarted to do the Temples before pulling the MS (though not necessarily as it would mean doing them without a dull MS), but he still wasn't wrong. The MS was still needed to beat Ganon even if the timing was not as appropriate as it could have been. Again, I'm not saying the King knows everything, but he was right on the need of the MS, and there's no reason he isn't right about the no connection.

No, but Ganondorf proved that he was smarter than the King.

He wasn't proven smarted at all. I mean, look who got the Triforce in the end. He who laughs last, laughs loudest. The king placed Zelda in a good spot, it was unfortunate that Ganon looked there. Regardless of who was more cunning, it doesn't mean that Ganon is more clued up on spiritual matters.

Saying that the similarities between the Links are coincidences is rather ignorant. Obviously they are connected by destiny, ect.

Even with destiny, the creators made a point that this Link was not like the other heros. The others were all born into their fate. This Links destiny changed when his sister was abducted. He was brought into being a hero rather than born into being a hero. He was a normal, average boy... nothing more. That is why there was no connection.

I give up... If you can't even remember what we have been talking about in this topic then there is no reason for me to state it again.

I remember perfectly well. My point is that he was looking for A hero rather than THE hero. This is quite a significant difference.

Hah! Remember that ALL princesses between AoL's BS and LoZ were named Zelda? Did all of them fight Ganon together with Link? No. Did AoL's BS Zelda fight Ganon together with Link? No. Is she a princess named "Zelda"? Yes. Is she "Princess Zelda" who fights Ganon together with Link? NO. Thus we can say that she isn't the same Zelda (or reincarnation of her). Therefore there is no problem with two Zeldas at the same time. This isn't even an explanation, it is a fact!

Well if Sleeping Zelda was the first princess (which is stated in the manual), then every Zelda we ever see is between Sleeping Zelda and LoZ Zelda. So yes, there were plenty of Zeldas inbetween that fought Ganon with Link.

So Ganondorf wasn't looking for Zelda in TWW? Because that is never "proven" either.

We know that Ganon was looking for the Triforce and so by implication he was looking for Zelda.

And the King was looking for the HoT, unless you ignore evidence...

He was looking for A hero. Someone who could take down Ganon. That's what the quote says.

Either he was looking for the HoT or Link "the chosen one". No matter which interpretation you choose, I am still correct.

The quotes even show that the King didn't think that this Link was anything all that special but showed promise. He didn't say this is the chosen one, but knew that this guy may be potentially a hero. Such a hero in fact that he could lift the MS. He was right. Hurry for the King.

You seem to be totally oblivious to the fact that Zelda is a video game, but it is. Ever heard of phenomena called "plot twist"? That's right. That is when something changes in the storyline. Who says that this wasn't a plot twist? You can't. In fact, it seems extremely likely to be the case as the game never contradicts Ganondorf's words after that point.

Are you telling me it would be a plot twist that Link, who is the chosen hero in every Zelda game since the 1980s is in WW the chosen hero? I wouldn't call that a plot twist as it's obvious from the word go. However, I think the twist would be that a random boy ends up getting involved in this epic adventure. That would be a slight twist, and has been confirmed by the creators as the point they were trying to convery in WW.

Mohammed Ali

[Hero of Legend]

The problem with that is if we start doubting quotes then anything can be called into question. This is why we generally take quotes to be gospel if there is no clear reason to doubt them, particularly when the quote is from either a sage or someone from the Royal family.

I think every main character (including Ganondorf) should be taken seriously. I don't think we can say that the King has more credibility just because he is good.

It may have been smarted to do the Temples before pulling the MS (though not necessarily as it would mean doing them without a dull MS), but he still wasn't wrong. The MS was still needed to beat Ganon even if the timing was not as appropriate as it could have been. Again, I'm not saying the King knows everything, but he was right on the need of the MS, and there's no reason he isn't right about the no connection.

His decision endangered the life of both Link and Zelda... That's not good. Also, what about the Light Arrows? They work against Ganondorf.

He wasn't proven smarted at all. I mean, look who got the Triforce in the end. He who laughs last, laughs loudest.

You do remember that it was Ganondorf who had the last laugh, right?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

But the King only got the Triforce due to lucky coincidence. He never planed on getting it.

The king placed Zelda in a good spot, it was unfortunate that Ganon looked there. Regardless of who was more cunning, it doesn't mean that Ganon is more clued up on spiritual matters.

Well, at least it doesn't make him any more credible. Ganondorf DOES know more than the King in TWW.

Even with destiny, the creators made a point that this Link was not like the other heros. The others were all born into their fate. This Links destiny changed when his sister was abducted. He was brought into being a hero rather than born into being a hero. He was a normal, average boy... nothing more. That is why there was no connection.

They never said: "This is a normal guy" they said that he was a new Link and that his adventure started because of Aryll's kidnapping. It is the same thing with TP Link, he starts because his friends get abducted, but Aonuma says that he is a chosen Hero. This "reason" for Link's adventure is only a part of the more advanced storyline of the games. We will most likely see it in every future Zelda game.

And as I said before, everything we know from TWW suggests that Link was the chosen Hero. Valoo states it at the very beginning of the game, the MS proves it, the ToC proves it, the King states it, Ganondorf states it, ect. Saying that he was an average boy is just wrong.

I remember perfectly well. My point is that he was looking for A hero rather than THE hero. This is quite a significant difference.

It is the Triforce of Courage--proof that you are indeed the true hero.

How many times do I have to post this?

Well if Sleeping Zelda was the first princess (which is stated in the manual), then every Zelda we ever see is between Sleeping Zelda and LoZ Zelda.

Well, the manual says that she is the "first generation" Zelda, which could have several meanings. Besides, Aonuma said that they didn't care much about the timeline when LoZ/AoL were made, so AoL's BS isn't important.

So yes, there were plenty of Zeldas inbetween that fought Ganon with Link.

Exactly. But did ALL of them fight Ganon. NO. Did AoL Zelda? NO. Are only the Zeldas who fought Ganon "Princess Zelda"? YES. So there, AoL Zelda and most other princesses were other "normal" people. Zelda is the one who fights Ganon (or Vaati).

We know that Ganon was looking for the Triforce and so by implication he was looking for Zelda.

"We know that the King was looking for the HoT and so by implication he was looking for Link."

Same thing.

He was looking for A hero. Someone who could take down Ganon. That's what the quote says.

You must have misread something. The Deku Tree is talking about ONE person (namely the HoT), and he connects him to Link as "the" Hero.

The quotes even show that the King didn't think that this Link was anything all that special but showed promise. He didn't say this is the chosen one, but knew that this guy may be potentially a hero. Such a hero in fact that he could lift the MS. He was right. Hurry for the King.

The word "courage" is in red text, indicating that it is important. And who is connected to courage and the ToC? The Kind sort of contradicts himself. That is why I don't think he was being totally literal when he said that there was no connection between them.

And I found this rather nifty quote...

The Master Sword has returned! Its blade once again houses the power to repel evil. The sword of the one true hero is revived at last!

What's that you say? Is Link the ONE TRUE HERO? Yes, he is indeed.

Are you telling me it would be a plot twist that Link, who is the chosen hero in every Zelda game since the 1980s is in WW the chosen hero? I wouldn't call that a plot twist as it's obvious from the word go. However, I think the twist would be that a random boy ends up getting involved in this epic adventure. That would be a slight twist, and has been confirmed by the creators as the point they were trying to convery in WW.

No. I'm telling you that it is a plot twist that it was stated that Link is the reincarnation of the HoT. That had never been done before.

And Link has been just as random in every game.

[mohammedali]

[quote=Hero of Legend]I think every main character (including Ganondorf) should be taken seriously. I don't think we can say that the King has more credibility just because he is good.[/quote]
I agree. However, this would mean the King should not be considered as fallible with the no connection line.

[quote]His decision endangered the life of both Link and Zelda... That's not good. Also, what about the Light Arrows? They work against Ganondorf.[/quote]He's been risking Links neck since the start, but he did what was necessary to save the world from Ganon. Sure he didn't anticipate a few things, but he's only Hylian

[quote]You do remember that it was Ganondorf who had the last laugh, right?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)[/quote]
lol. True. I don't think Zelda was too impressed by his humour though. "Ganondorf, you so crrazzy!?!"

[quote]But the King only got the Triforce due to lucky coincidence. He never planed on getting it.[/quote]My point is that no one's perfect. The king tried to hide Zelda, but Ganon found her. Ganon tried to get the Triforce, but the king touched it instead.

[quote]Well, at least it doesn't make him any more credible. Ganondorf DOES know more than the King in TWW.[/quote]
I agree that it might not make him more credible (though if there were a liar of the two I would put my money on it being Ganon). However, I don't see why Ganondorf would know more about Links spirituality considering how the Royal family is not only Hylian (and has some sort of telepathic powers amongst other things), but also would know more about Link as they record the legends etc and, unlike Ganon, weren't sealed for years and years.

[quote]They never said: "This is a normal guy" they said that he was a new Link and that his adventure started because of Aryll's kidnapping. It is the same thing with TP Link, he starts because his friends get abducted, but Aonuma says that he is a chosen Hero. This "reason" for Link's adventure is only a part of the more advanced storyline of the games. We will most likely see it in every future Zelda game.[/quote]I can't recall where, but I do recall an interview saying that Link was a normal boy that gets involved in the adventure rather than being born into it. That's a big difference to the other Links who were practically born heros and chose to get involved.

[quote]And as I said before, everything we know from TWW suggests that Link was the chosen Hero. Valoo states it at the very beginning of the game, the MS proves it, the ToC proves it, the King states it, Ganondorf states it, ect. Saying that he was an average boy is just wrong.[/quote]
I don't doubt that Link is a hero, just that he wasn't born that way but instead rose to the challenge. Of course he's a hero for all the reasons mentioned above, but that doesn't mean he always was.

[quote]How many times do I have to post this?[/quote]Must have missed this quote before. I guess I understand your rational for why there is one hero with the use of the word 'the'. However, I've always understood it that although there have been many different heroes, the people always saw it as if the same hero was jumping around time to save them. The King sees that this hero is not the same guy as before, but is also the hero he was looking for. Hence, even though he has no connection to the last hero, he's still 'the one' (at least for this adventure).

[quote]Well, the manual says that she is the "first generation" Zelda, which could have several meanings. Besides, Aonuma said that they didn't care much about the timeline when LoZ/AoL were made, so AoL's BS isn't important.

Exactly. But did ALL of them fight Ganon. NO. Did AoL Zelda? NO. Are only the Zeldas who fought Ganon "Princess Zelda"? YES. So there, AoL Zelda and most other princesses were other "normal" people. Zelda is the one who fights Ganon (or Vaati).[/quote]
So you're saying that the same Zelda is born every time Ganon comes but not then Ganon isn't due to come? This is not really like reincarnation where after death the soul is transfered to another birth (usually straight away). Even if this was not the case, you are assuming that the soul would transfer to an unborn because it knows that Ganon is going to attack at some point in that Zeldas lifetime. I mean, it may be possible, but it seems rather unlikely to me. I don't see it as being all that probable given how the reincarnation aspect would have to work.
Zelda: "Can I be reincarnated again?"
???: "No. We have to wait until just before Ganon strikes..."
Link: "Damn it, Why do I always have to wait till I'm old enough... You didn't care in LoZ...."

[quote]"We know that the King was looking for the HoT and so by implication he was looking for Link."[/quote]But we don't know if the King was looking for the HoT. We know he was looking for a hero like WW Link. Even if he was looking for the HoT himself, he did say very afirmatively that WW Link was not connected to him.

[quote]You must have misread something. The Deku Tree is talking about ONE person (namely the HoT), and he connects him to Link as "the" Hero.[/quote]
I take 'the' Hero to be any of the Links just like you do. However, I don't think of them as the same person or someone reincarnated, just a misunderstanding that the people of Hyrule have in thinking it's the same person helping them each time.

[quote]The word "courage" is in red text, indicating that it is important. And who is connected to courage and the ToC? The Kind sort of contradicts himself. That is why I don't think he was being totally literal when he said that there was no connection between them.

[quote]And I found this rather nifty quote...

What's that you say? Is Link the ONE TRUE HERO? Yes, he is indeed.[/quote]
I take this to be for the last hero who can be an amalgamation of all the Links before or the HoT alone. The king is talking about whos sword it is and tells us it was the sword of the one true hero. He's not talking about WW Link at all. Instead he's talking about a Link from before.


[quote]No. I'm telling you that it is a plot twist that it was stated that Link is the reincarnation of the HoT. That had never been done before.

And Link has been just as random in every game.[/quote]
Zelda has been Links destiny since aLttP, but in this game was were shown that this wasn't true. That's the way I saw the twist.

I think in conclusion your theory is an interesting one and I can understand your justification for it (which I previously didn't). However, I still take it as just a theory. Similarly, I have my views on what is said in WW, and although I am convinced that I am right, I still appreciate that my views are just a theory as well.

Mohammed Ali

[MikePetersSucks]

No, that was different. ALttP Link needed to gather the Pendants because they were needed to pull the MS. OoT never says that the Spiritual Stones are needed so you are jumping to conclusions. Also, do you realise that you just proved me right? Every Link has to prove himself, no matter if he is chosen. You have just nullified your argument against TWW Link being chosen. Good job!

No I didn't. Dumbass

Cut the crap! Your personal fan fiction doesn't change facts. From what we know we can be certain that she hasn't been in any game. Or do any Zelda have a known brother?

I never said It was true. I said "For all we know." Dipshit, learn to read. >_>

Way to put words in Ganondorf's mouth. He actually says: "My Triforce of Power is resonating! Ha! At long last, I have found you... Princess Zelda!" But that doesn't prove that he sent the Helmaroc King to find HER, it might have been someone else. Or at least you say so about the KoRL and Link..

Yup. Ganondorf was looking for Zelda, but he was also looking for someone who doesn't exist and was never even mentioned once. Whatever.

His decision endangered the life of both Link and Zelda... That's not good. Also, what about the Light Arrows? They work against Ganondorf.

So did Zelda's descision in OOT, but whenever she's contradicted, we side with her. What's the difference here?

But the King only got the Triforce due to lucky coincidence. He never planed on getting it.

That makes Ganondorf look even MORE pathetic. centuries of planning, and some hermit stumbles onto the Triforce.

Did AoL Zelda? NO.

I'll leave that up for the future games to decide, but sure, whatever. Some people theorize that OOT (or some other) Zelda is the one in the backstory. Whatever. Point is, it's up to debate.

"We know that the King was looking for the HoT and so by implication he was looking for Link."

No it's not. Ganon knew for a fact that Zelda had the Triforce. For all the King knew, that disco guy on Windfall Island could be the Hero of Time.

[Fatgoron]

Everything said in a game has been placed there by the creators. A character is never wrong/lying unless it was intended to be that way. If the creators intend for a character to lie they (almost) always tell the player that it was a lie during the course of the game. Thus every character that isn't contradicted is correct.

Hypotheticall, any character claiming to be a god, with nothing solid to contradict their claims must therefore be a god? until usch time as they are directly contradicted by observable fact or dialogue, there exists no other possibility?

Well, since the Mask of Truth actually can read people's minds/hearts, it makes the Gossip Stones fairly credible. And it is still the Eye of Truth.

The Eye of Truth is only ever used as the name for the lens during OoT.

Yes. And the fact that he found Link makes him the "HoT", no?

No it doesn't. It's entirely possible to be looking for one thing and find something else that will do just as well for the same purpose.

This is exactly like in ALttP, so if ALttP Link is chosen it means that OoA/OoS Link is chosen as well.

Do you mean AoL? aLttP Link never had a piece of the triforce shown on the back of his hand, nor was it stated or infered during the game.

TWW is exactly the same as OoT, you mean?

If Link had not entered the Deku Tree he would never had become a Hero. And Link is repeatedly given a "Yes/No" choice if he wants to help people, ect.

No, I mean they're completely different.
In TWW, Link is asleep mindng his own business, completely oblivious to the world around him, and would never have been caught up in those events had he not chosen to interfere.
TWW must prove himself worthy of the ToC and present it to the gods before the crest enters his body.

In OoT Link is one of two people in the entirety of Hyrule whom have premonitive dreams/nightmares about Ganondorf and the coming events, even before any of those events have been set in motion. When Ganondorf obtains the triforce and it splits OoT is the one chosen by destiny to recieve the ToC.

Well, you have to take creators intent in mind when you give judgement on these matters. Ganondorf would know if the creators wanted him to. And why did they chose the word "reborn" if he wasn't reborn?

...Ganondorf knows because the creators wanted him to...

Besides, Link pulled the MS. That is a "detectable" connection, as only THE Hero can pull it.

Thing is, we don't know the creator's intent with regards to Ganondorf's dialogue. So we can't factor that into any decisions about it right now.

Why call the Master Sword "Master", if it isn't master of anything? It's simply something that's said. If I were to establich a great empire spanning the whole of europe some might say I was Napoleon Boneparte(SP?) reborn, simply due to the similarities between us.

Thing is, there's more than one hero. At the time of each of their existences, every Link is "The Hero", and the mantle is then passed on to the next Link. Since only one Link is being spoken about in almost all situations you can't blame the writers for using the singular rather than the plural in the dialogue, likewise with the character's supposed choice of words.

True... But what makes the King infallible? The game gives us reason to doubt his words, he even says so himself! My point is that his statement is not an ultimate fact.

Here's something we can definitely agree on, though I extend this to all characters. A character is only correct in so far as they may be speaking what they believe to be the truth. For all we know there's another OoT Link game in the works where he uses the brown shield and settles in a cottage atop a mountain.
I try to keep a very open mind about what the characters say, since the itnernal logic of one story often fails when applied to the series as a whole, largely due to the nature of the earlier plots being self-contained with virtually no thought about the overall tiemline.

Saying that the similarities between the Links are coincidences is rather ignorant. Obviously they are connected by destiny, ect.

Saying the opposite, without evidence, is speculation though. Speculation is all well and good, but it doesn't amount to much without at least establishing a correlation and explaining how it applies to the given situation.

Part IV of my Aonuma feature will drop a bombshell...

January...

When can we expect to see part 2?

[Hero of Legend]

[quote name='mohammedali]I agree. However' date=' this would mean the King should not be considered as fallible with the no connection line.[/quote']

This would have been true if TWW had not given us reason to doubt the King. But now it does... So it is up to personal interpretation.

[quote]I agree that it might not make him more credible (though if there were a liar of the two I would put my money on it being Ganon). However, I don't see why Ganondorf would know more about Links spirituality considering how the Royal family is not only Hylian (and has some sort of telepathic powers amongst other things), but also would know more about Link as they record the legends etc and, unlike Ganon, weren't sealed for years and years.[/quote]

Ganondorf saw OoT Link, if anyone should know it would be him. He also knows a lot about the soul surviving death as he (among other things) revived Volvagia in OoT.

Also, Ganondorf became nearly immortal when he got the ToP. You would expect that the other pieces had a similar effect on Link and Zelda.

[quote]I can't recall where, but I do recall an interview saying that Link was a normal boy that gets involved in the adventure rather than being born into it. That's a big difference to the other Links who were practically born heros and chose to get involved.[/quote]

There is no in-game difference between TWW Link and any other Link. All of them chose to get involved in their own adventures. The interview is interesting though... But I still believe that it simply meant that TWW Link was a new Link. Remember that Miyamoto never spoiled the "plot twist" (Yeah, right) that Link was a Hylian in OoT before the game's release.

[quote]I don't doubt that Link is a hero, just that he wasn't born that way but instead rose to the challenge. Of course he's a hero for all the reasons mentioned above, but that doesn't mean he always was.[/quote]

Link's actions during the beginning of the game are proof enough for me. He went straight from being a normal guy to being a fearless Hero. Even Orca comments on this:

[quote=Orca]Oh! What is the matter, Link? You have an urgent look about you... Has something happened?

Whatever it is, from the look on your face I suspect it is no laughing matter...

What say you, Link?

Have you come for some serious instruction in the way of the sword?

(go through training)

And yet...I sense a certain anxiousness in the sword you hold...an eagerness that goes far beyond the mere desire to be wielded on the fields of battle...

I do no know what has happened...

But I have faith in you. Somehow, I doubt you will misuse that sword...

You may have it, Link. I give it freely. Take the blade with you...[/quote]

[quote]Must have missed this quote before. I guess I understand your rational for why there is one hero with the use of the word 'the'. However, I've always understood it that although there have been many different heroes, the people always saw it as if the same hero was jumping around time to save them. The King sees that this hero is not the same guy as before, but is also the hero he was looking for. Hence, even though he has no connection to the last hero, he's still 'the one' (at least for this adventure).[/quote]

Hm... I agree to a certain extent (I don't think that the people believe that the Links are the same guy... But they have all been the Hero). However, you should take a look at this...

[quote=King]You have done well, Link.

It would seem the gods have acknowledged you to be a true hero.[/quote]

Note, the King says that Link is "a" true hero. But latter when he sees the ToC he says that it is proof that Link is "the" true Hero. He realises something he didn't know before, and that makes him think differently about Link. This, coupled with the fact that "the hero" has been used to refer to the HoT during the entire game, makes the choice of words a whole lot more important than you might think...

[quote]So you're saying that the same Zelda is born every time Ganon comes but not then Ganon isn't due to come? This is not really like reincarnation where after death the soul is transfered to another birth (usually straight away). Even if this was not the case, you are assuming that the soul would transfer to an unborn because it knows that Ganon is going to attack at some point in that Zeldas lifetime. I mean, it may be possible, but it seems rather unlikely to me. I don't see it as being all that probable given how the reincarnation aspect would have to work.[/quote]

First, about nature of reincarnation... Ever seen a fantasy book/movie featuring reincarnation? It is not like "real" reincarnation at all. That is the case for Zelda as well. Nothing in the storyline of the games is taken directly from reality, so why would Nintendo do it in this case?

With that said I will answer your first question: Basically, yes. Ever wondered why Link and Zelda always are there to stop Ganon? Lucky coincidence? Not likely. Based on the fact that Link often is said to be chosen by the gods, and the he is prophesised, I believe that he is actually sent by the gods to defeat Ganon (or whatever evil that threatens Hyrule). Of course, as seen in TWW, Zelda is chosen by the gods as well.

Now, the gods would easily know when Ganon is going to attack. Remember Zelda's prophesies? If Zelda can do it, then what is stopping the gods? Besides, given the fact that the gods does speak to the Hylians it is apparent that Zelda got her visions from them.

Personally I like my theory because it explains mostly everything about Link and Zelda nicely without any apparent problems.

[quote]I take this to be for the last hero who can be an amalgamation of all the Links before or the HoT alone. The king is talking about whos sword it is and tells us it was the sword of the one true hero. He's not talking about WW Link at all. Instead he's talking about a Link from before.[/quote]

It wasn't the King who said that. It was the (all-knowing) narrator. And to me the quote says that only the one true hero can wield the MS. After all it has never been Link's sword. It has only been wielded by him.

[quote]Zelda has been Links destiny since aLttP, but in this game was were shown that this wasn't true. That's the way I saw the twist.[/quote]

Huh? That is never stated. TWW Link has to rescue her like he always does. Also, OoT never says that it is Link's DESTINY to meet Zelda.

[quote]I think in conclusion your theory is an interesting one and I can understand your justification for it (which I previously didn't). However, I still take it as just a theory. Similarly, I have my views on what is said in WW, and although I am convinced that I am right, I still appreciate that my views are just a theory as well.[/quote]

Yeah, I am aware that my theory is just that, a theory. But it is possible, and it does make sense... So I'm willing to believe in it for now. However, should a future game prove me wrong then I will just have to accept it (I do fear that the HoT and/or OoT Zelda will still be alive in TP...)

BTW, I see no problem with your theory, so it is a possibility as well.

[quote=MikePetersSucks]No I didn't. Dumbass[/quote]

Getting aggravated are we? Is it hard to argue against facts?

[quote]I never said It was true. I said "For all we know." Dipshit, learn to read. >_>[/quote]

Do you not realise how idiotic that argument is? *Sigh* You see, "For all we know *Insert fan fiction here*" can be said about everything. But that doesn't make it true. What we DO know is that no game has yet to feature AoL's BS, therefore, until further notice, AoL's BS Zelda hasn't been in a game. Saying anything else is fan fiction and cannot be used in a debate.

[quote]Yup. Ganondorf was looking for Zelda, but he was also looking for someone who doesn't exist and was never even mentioned once. Whatever.[/quote]

Exactly. After all, you are the one who say that Ganondorf is crazy.

[quote]So did Zelda's descision in OOT, but whenever she's contradicted, we side with her. What's the difference here?[/quote]

I'm not sure about what you are talking about there... Zelda chose to risk her own life in OoT. She did NOT send Link to face Ganondorf without the MS.

[quote]That makes Ganondorf look even MORE pathetic. centuries of planning, and some hermit stumbles onto the Triforce.[/quote]

The same thing can be said about the King. He sure makes a lot of mistakes for one who has been searching for the HoT for hundreds of years.

[quote]I'll leave that up for the future games to decide, but sure, whatever. Some people theorize that OOT (or some other) Zelda is the one in the backstory. Whatever. Point is, it's up to debate.[/quote]

It's not up to debate until the games give us a reason to debate it. The people who DO debate it are stupid n00bs who try to change facts to fit their biased theories. Besides, the entire "AoL's BS is first!" assumption is based on opinion.

[quote]No it's not. Ganon knew for a fact that Zelda had the Triforce. For all the King knew, that disco guy on Windfall Island could be the Hero of Time.[/quote]

So what? The King knew that Link was the hero that he had been looking for.

And no. Tott is not the HoT. He can’t even use the Song of Passing.

[quote name='Fatgoron]Hypotheticall' date=' any character claiming to be a god, with nothing solid to contradict their claims must therefore be a god? until usch time as they are directly contradicted by observable fact or dialogue, there exists no other possibility?[/quote']

Good point. However, by making a character say something ridiculous, the creators have indirectly told us that it is false. Wouldn’t you agree?

[quote]The Eye of Truth is only ever used as the name for the lens during OoT.
[/quote]

Not exactly...

[quote=OoT]A long time ago... There was a man in this very village who had an eye they said could see the truth!

Now usually, you have to train your mind's eye most strenuously to actually see the truth...

But this fella, no, they say he had a different way of doing things...  

His house stood where the well is now...[/quote]

So while the "Eye of Truth" is the Lens of Truth, it is also a power that can be learned by training. Going on by that, the Lens of Truth is simply a tool made in order to allow people to see the truth without this training.

Now, the Sheikah made the Lens, the Stones and the Mask. They all have this power (based on their names and origin) and they all have the "Sheikah Eye" or the "Eye of Truth". So in a way you can say that I am correct.

But in any case, doubting the Gossip Stones is foolish.

[quote]No it doesn't. It's entirely possible to be looking for one thing and find something else that will do just as well for the same purpose.[/quote]

It would have been possible if not for the fact that the King says that Link is the Hero he had been looking for.

[quote]Do you mean AoL? aLttP Link never had a piece of the triforce shown on the back of his hand, nor was it stated or infered during the game.[/quote]

No, I meant this.

[quote name='ALttP]If a person with an evil heart gets the Triforce' date=' a Hero is destined to appear...[/quote']

[quote=OoS]Ancient Hyrulean legends say the hero destined to overthrow evil has a ^ on his left hand.[/quote]

The circumstances do not matter. They were both destined to appear.

[quote]No, I mean they're completely different.
In TWW, Link is asleep mindng his own business, completely oblivious to the world around him, and would never have been caught up in those events had he not chosen to interfere.
[/quote]

Had OoT Link never chosen to enter the Deku Tree he would never had started his adventure. It is the same thing. And don't tell me that there is a difference between Tetra's kidnapping and the curse on the Deku Tree. They were both part of Ganondorf's schemes.

[quote]TWW must prove himself worthy of the ToC and present it to the gods before the crest enters his body.[/quote]

What? Nothing in TWW indicates that he had to "prove himself worthy" of the ToC. The ToC simply entered his body the first time he used it.

Also, the King said that it was proof that Link was THE Hero. You don't want to argue with the game... Do you?

[quote]In OoT Link is one of two people in the entirety of Hyrule whom have premonitive dreams/nightmares about Ganondorf and the coming events, even before any of those events have been set in motion. When Ganondorf obtains the triforce and it splits OoT is the one chosen by destiny to recieve the ToC.[/quote]

Correct. But the events of OoT were still controlled by choice, just like in TWW.

As for the Triforce piece… Yes, you are right about that Link was chosen by destiny to get it. But that brings up another question. If OoT Link was the one destined to have the ToC, why does it enter TWW Link's body? (Same thing about TWW Zelda and the ToW).

[quote]Thing is, there's more than one hero. At the time of each of their existences, every Link is "The Hero", and the mantle is then passed on to the next Link. Since only one Link is being spoken about in almost all situations you can't blame the writers for using the singular rather than the plural in the dialogue, likewise with the character's supposed choice of words.[/quote]

That's your opinion. And as I said before, the games DO make a difference between "a hero" and "the hero".

[quote]Here's something we can definitely agree on, though I extend this to all characters. A character is only correct in so far as they may be speaking what they believe to be the truth. For all we know there's another OoT Link game in the works where he uses the brown shield and settles in a cottage atop a mountain.
I try to keep a very open mind about what the characters say, since the itnernal logic of one story often fails when applied to the series as a whole, largely due to the nature of the earlier plots being self-contained with virtually no thought about the overall tiemline.[/quote]

I agree with you about this. But I say that if a statement is contradicted by the timeline, the statement is once again nullified by the fact that the creators have told us that it was wrong.

[quote]Saying the opposite, without evidence, is speculation though. Speculation is all well and good, but it doesn't amount to much without at least establishing a correlation and explaining how it applies to the given situation.[/quote]

I think I have done that… More than one Link also speaks for itself...

[MikePetersSucks]

Ganondorf saw OoT Link, if anyone should know it would be him. He also knows a lot about the soul surviving death as he (among other things) revived Volvagia in OoT.

Also, Ganondorf became nearly immortal when he got the ToP. You would expect that the other pieces had a similar effect on Link and Zelda.

1. Who said Volvagia had a soul? It seemed like a dragon golem or something

2. There's no proof the Triforce of Power was responsible for Ganondorf's immortality. It's perfectly feasible that it's a trait that comes with his heritage, like it seems to imply for Twinrova.

Link's actions during the beginning of the game are proof enough for me. He went straight from being a normal guy to being a fearless Hero.

There's a difference between having the makings of a Hero to actually BEINg a hero.

OoT never says that it is Link's DESTINY to meet Zelda.

Zelda gets visions of Link visiting her, The Deku Tree (whom you yourself noted knows this destiny crap somehow) tells him to see her, Zelda is a sage, Link is destined to free and meet these Sages, Zelda and Link are bound by the Triforce...

But NO, it was never a part of destiny for them to meet. Uh huh.

Exactly. After all, you are the one who say that Ganondorf is crazy.

Just because he's crazy doesn't mean he can't form a coherent and logical plan. That's where the term "Evil MAD Genius" comes from. >_> dur.

The same thing can be said about the King. He sure makes a lot of mistakes for one who has been searching for the HoT for hundreds of years.

But according to you, his "mistakes" is just Ganondorf being better than the King. Frankly, I don't expect anyone to have a lot of experience being a talking boat fated to find a hero.

It's not up to debate until the games give us a reason to debate it. The people who DO debate it are stupid n00bs who try to change facts to fit their biased theories. Besides, the entire "AoL's BS is first!" assumption is based on opinion.

Which they have. The AOL BS thing is a big issue. Also, the "AOL BS=1st" thing has some support atleast.

So what? The King knew that Link was the hero that he had been looking for.

And no. Tott is not the HoT. He can’t even use the Song of Passing.

No he didn't. He thought the kid showed "promise" which is far from a guarantee.

And yea, I know Tott isn't the Hero of Time. I was emphasizing that the King couldn't have possibly known who the Hero of time was.

It would have been possible if not for the fact that the King says that Link is the Hero he had been looking for.

And yet you're the one who said we shouldn't listen to the King. Kudos.

If OoT Link was the one destined to have the ToC, why does it enter TWW Link's body?

Because he claimed it. It's not an act of fate for the Triforce piece to enter you; it just means you own it. If fate was involved, the Triforce of Courage would've sought out TWW Link instead of the other way around.

And as I said before, the games DO make a difference between "a hero" and "the hero".

A and The are interchangable. My sister's an English Teacher, I should know well enough to tell ya that.

[Showsni]

A and The are interchangable. My sister's an English Teacher, I should know well enough to tell ya that.

No they're not. A is the indefitnite article, the is the definite article. The refers to a specific whatever it is, whereas a is just a general one.

For example, you would't say I had the bath. You'd say I had a bath. Unless only one bath could ever be taken.

[mohammedali]

This would have been true if TWW had not given us reason to doubt the King. But now it does... So it is up to personal interpretation.

I still take quotes to be gospel unless there is a direct contradiction from the undisputed canon. To do it any other way would mean too much can be up to 'personal interpretation' and would make a timeline very difficult to piece together.

Ganondorf saw OoT Link, if anyone should know it would be him. He also knows a lot about the soul surviving death as he (among other things) revived Volvagia in OoT.

Also, Ganondorf became nearly immortal when he got the ToP. You would expect that the other pieces had a similar effect on Link and Zelda.

Although he may have had some experience with immortality, the same can be said for the King who has survived hundreds of years etc. However, for Ganon, the problem is that he was sealed when the HoT was still around Hyrule. It's less likely that he would know what happened to the HoT after the Seal Wars and so I expect the reason the King flat out denies a connection to the HoT is because he knows a reason why it can't be anything to do with him. I take this to be the fact that the HoT left the Adult Timeline and hence there was no trace of him left after that.

There is no in-game difference between TWW Link and any other Link. All of them chose to get involved in their own adventures. The interview is interesting though... But I still believe that it simply meant that TWW Link was a new Link. Remember that Miyamoto never spoiled the "plot twist" (Yeah, right) that Link was a Hylian in OoT before the game's release.

The difference is that all the other Links got involved because they thought it was right, they thought it was their job, their destiny (as Miyamoto put it). WW Link got involved to save his sister, which ended up including saving all of Hyrule for the most part until he was too involved to back out.
LoZ = Asked by Impa.
AoL = Hand shows he is the chosen one.
aLttP = Heard Zelda ask for his help. Told by his uncle it is the fate of his people.
OoT = Asked by the Great Deku Tree to stop Ganondorf.
That's all the major games, and I think you'll find it true for the non-Ganon games
as well, like OoX where he is called by the Triforce etc.

WW = Sister gets kiddenapped, he comes to help. Not the destiny of his people.

Link's actions during the beginning of the game are proof enough for me. He went straight from being a normal guy to being a fearless Hero. Even Orca comments on this:

Again, I agree he is a hero, but not straight away. He is a normal kid who matures and becomes his own man over the course of the game. He wasn't born to become a hero, but circumstance made it so.

Hm... I agree to a certain extent (I don't think that the people believe that the Links are the same guy... But they have all been the Hero). However, you should take a look at this...

Note, the King says that Link is "a" true hero. But latter when he sees the ToC he says that it is proof that Link is "the" true Hero. He realises something he didn't know before, and that makes him think differently about Link. This, coupled with the fact that "the hero" has been used to refer to the HoT during the entire game, makes the choice of words a whole lot more important than you might think...

That's one way of looking at it. I can think of a few others which don't give it all that much significance. Again, it could be that they considered anyone who can weild the ToC to be the hero, or the King may just be saying it as a kind of short hand. If I said in XxX 2 (Triple X 2) that Ice Cube is the hero, does it mean that he is a reincarnation of the last hero in XxX (Triple X 1), i.e. Vin Diesel?. Obvioulsy not. It's just common terminology to say such a thing quite casually assuming that it won't be taken out of context.

First, about nature of reincarnation... Ever seen a fantasy book/movie featuring reincarnation? It is not like "real" reincarnation at all. That is the case for Zelda as well. Nothing in the storyline of the games is taken directly from reality, so why would Nintendo do it in this case?

I just find it a little farfetched, as I would imagine that if they were going to use a reincarnation approach they would have all of the Zeldas reincarnations of one another. However, I understand what you're saying and in fantasy I guess it could work.

It wasn't the King who said that. It was the (all-knowing) narrator. And to me the quote says that only the one true hero can wield the MS. After all it has never been Link's sword. It has only been wielded by him.

It says "The sword of the one true hero is revived at last!". This means the sword of someone who is known as 'the one true hero' is revived and does not tell us anything about the person currently weilding it.

Huh? That is never stated. TWW Link has to rescue her like he always does. Also, OoT never says that it is Link's DESTINY to meet Zelda.

She's called the Princess of Destiny in OoT. How more obvuos can they be?

Yeah, I am aware that my theory is just that, a theory. But it is possible, and it does make sense... So I'm willing to believe in it for now. However, should a future game prove me wrong then I will just have to accept it (I do fear that the HoT and/or OoT Zelda will still be alive in TP...)

I doubt that the HoT will be around. If I remember correctly, some people over at IGN Boards were trying to read the gravestones using the Hylian translation tables. IIRC, one of them said "Hero of Time" suggesting that he had died. As for Zelda, to see another one of her would be strange. I can't imagine them putting that into the game, though you never know.

BTW, I see no problem with your theory, so it is a possibility as well.

Yeah, with these things it's kind of up to interpretation. I have always taken WW Link to be someone outside the usual Hero line shown in Zelda games. That's what I though the point of the game was. However, there is no real harm in assuming they are connected. Perhaps time with tell. I'm hoping many questions will be answered come TP.

Mohammed Ali

[mohammedali]

No they're not. A is the indefitnite article, the is the definite article. The refers to a specific whatever it is, whereas a is just a general one.
 
For example, you would't say I had the bath. You'd say I had a bath. Unless only one bath could ever be taken.

Or you could say "I has teh BATH!!!11one1"

Mohammed Ali

[TSA]

WARNING - THERE MAY BE MINOR TP SPOILERS, BUT IT IS ALL EXISTING INFORMATION FROM E3 2005. BUT IF THAT IS TOO MUCH INFO, SKIP OVER MY POST AND I REQUEST ANYONE WHO QUOTES ME EDIT OUT SPOILERS.

Also, Ganondorf became nearly immortal when he got the ToP. You would expect that the other pieces had a similar effect on Link and Zelda.

Just to throw this out there, have you ever considered it was the Sacred Realm which kept Ganondorf alive? Or perhaps the seal of the Sages? Or perhaps there really are multiple Ganons?

Although he may have had some experience with immortality, the same can be said for the King who has survived hundreds of years etc.

I'm still not convinced the King of Hyrule in TWW was completely "alive". I think it was either his soul left behind (ghosts do appear in the Zelda games, see TMC for the Ghost of a King appearing), or it was some other form of magic.

There is no in-game difference between TWW Link and any other Link. All of them chose to get involved in their own adventures.

Physically speaking, you're dead wrong. They've differed in age, height, complexion and build. Not all of them are even from Hyrule. But they all do possess the quality of becoming a Hero.

The interview is interesting though... But I still believe that it simply meant that TWW Link was a new Link. Remember that Miyamoto never spoiled the "plot twist" (Yeah, right) that Link was a Hylian in OoT before the game's release.

Actually, they revealed that Link was going to grow up awhile before OoT came out, and they said the Kokiri were "never-aging" creatures. So before the game came out, I knew Link wasn't really a Kokiri. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure they said Link was an orphan raised as a Kokiri before the game came out, too.

The difference is that all the other Links got involved because they thought it was right, they thought it was their job, their destiny (as Miyamoto put it). WW Link got involved to save his sister, which ended up including saving all of Hyrule for the most part until he was too involved to back out.

You could also argue Link got involved because of the necessity factor. Many games Link is thrown into a situation which he really has no choice (death, or fight). But I would easily agree that all the Link's possess the will to do what is right.

Link's actions during the beginning of the game are proof enough for me. He went straight from being a normal guy to being a fearless Hero. Even Orca comments on this:  

Again, I agree he is a hero, but not straight away. He is a normal kid who matures and becomes his own man over the course of the game. He wasn't born to become a hero, but circumstance made it so.

I would also find the need to bring up the fact Link is standed on this island that seems pretty boring, and boys usually love adventure and "fighting". So when the chance came, I'm sure part of the motivation was to "do something new and exciting", but it quickly became a motive of becoming a hero and doing more than the average person.

Note, the King says that Link is "a" true hero. But latter when he sees the ToC he says that it is proof that Link is "the" true Hero. He realises something he didn't know before, and that makes him think differently about Link. This, coupled with the fact that "the hero" has been used to refer to the HoT during the entire game, makes the choice of words a whole lot more important than you might think...

The King sees Link as a hero early on. He explains to Jabun this. Both Jabun and the Deku Tree are not so sure at first, nor is Valoo. But after each trial, they concede. For the Triforce of Courage, Link had to prove to the gods he was the Legendary Hero, albeit I do not get what the heck the Tower of the Gods segment was all about...because there they recognize him as the true hero as well...I think it was just poor design by Nintendo...but either way, Link had to keep proving himself to others as he went along.

It says "The sword of the one true hero is revived at last!". This means the sword of someone who is known as 'the one true hero' is revived and does not tell us anything about the person currently weilding it.

The Master Sword choses the Hero. At least, it is a judge of who is a true hero. But as we have seen, it is not the only judgement of who is truly a hero.

She's called the Princess of Destiny in OoT. How more obvuos can they be?

That's because of the history of Zelda...and I guess I can let a cat out of the bag early...but OoT is not first...and the origin of Zelda has routes in the real "Legend of Zelda". What I'm saying is, Zelda is a role you are born into, and it is your destiny, as Princess Zelda, to protect Hyrule and the Triforce of Wisdom (or the secrets of the Triforce) at all costs, even if it means dying.

I doubt that the HoT will be around. If I remember correctly, some people over at IGN Boards were trying to read the gravestones using the Hylian translation tables. IIRC, one of them said "Hero of Time" suggesting that he had died. As for Zelda, to see another one of her would be strange. I can't imagine them putting that into the game, though you never know.

Why does Link in TP have the Triforce mark on his hand at the start? Why, in TWW's backstory, did no hero appear? If TP is before TWW, then we know the memory of the Hero of Time lives on. Yet...the statue of the Hero of Time in TWW isn't a replica of OoT's Hero of Time...

[Showsni]

Keep the TP spoilers to a minimum in this forum please - there is a sperate subforum for them. Just be careful. Los will kill me if he comes across a TP spoiler...

[mohammedali]

Just to throw this out there, have you ever considered it was the Sacred Realm which kept Ganondorf alive?  Or perhaps the seal of the Sages?  Or perhaps there really are multiple Ganons?

Exactly. There are so many reason why Ganon has been in so many games that are so far apart. Also, to add to that list, remember that if a Gerudo male is born once every 100 years, then he would have to live at least around 100 years to keep the tribe in existance. This is a minimum, and we have no clue on what the maximum could be. For all we know, Gerudo males could live to be 2000.

I'm still not convinced the King of Hyrule in TWW was completely "alive".  I think it was either his soul left behind (ghosts do appear in the Zelda games, see TMC for the Ghost of a King appearing), or it was some other form of magic.

I'm pretty sure the King was alive, though I believe it was largly because the world he was living in was suspended and hence so was his age. He seemed perfectly real and didn't look anything like the ghosts we see in Zelda (and there are a fair few)... Not even the ones in TMC. Also, he did seem to be contemplating a return to the world above in the ending but then decided against it.

You could also argue Link got involved because of the necessity factor.  Many games Link is thrown into a situation which he really has no choice (death, or fight).  But I would easily agree that all the Link's possess the will to do what is right.

I disagree. In every other game it seems as though Link is asked to help.
LoZ it's Impa, AoL it's Impa, aLttP it's Zelda, OoT it's GDT and so on. In WW however, Link wants to get involved himself because of his sister. It really is a break from the norm.

That's because of the history of Zelda...and I guess I can let a cat out of the bag early...but OoT is not first...and the origin of Zelda has routes in the real "Legend of Zelda".  What I'm saying is, Zelda is a role you are born into, and it is your destiny, as Princess Zelda, to protect Hyrule and the Triforce of Wisdom (or the secrets of the Triforce) at all costs, even if it means dying.

Is that a cunning way of saying that AoL Zelda is first Here's hoping...

Why does Link in TP have the Triforce mark on his hand at the start?  Why, in TWW's backstory, did no hero appear?  If TP is before TWW, then we know the memory of the Hero of Time lives on.  Yet...the statue of the Hero of Time in TWW isn't a replica of OoT's Hero of Time...

I can't tell if you're just asking questions that you think are interesting, or you're hinting at something from the interviews. I will say that if you are hinting something, it does make me think more of the idea that the Hero of Time was not just OoT Link, and that TP Link was also known as the 'Hero of Time' and the statue we see is of him. Why there is no hero to stop the flood? Hmmm... Too many possible reasons, but all I can say is we will hopefully find out.
So TSA, when are you going to let us in to what you found out. We're all dying to hear...

Mohammed Ali

[martinDTanderson]

January...

[TSA]

Again I apologize if anyone read my post and thought it had TP spoilers, but I marked it so nobody else will suffer.

I disagree. In every other game it seems as though Link is asked to help.
LoZ it's Impa, AoL it's Impa, aLttP it's Zelda, OoT it's GDT and so on. In WW however, Link wants to get involved himself because of his sister. It really is a break from the norm.

Majora's Mask. Link was ambushed and dragged into Termina trying to save his horse, Epona. He then learns the land where his horse is...is basically doomed. He has to save Epona (storyline wise), so he has to also keep the world alive long enough. It's a means to an end his quest.

Link's Awakening. Shipwrecked. No ship. Can't leave until Wind Fish wakes. That's basically pointing a gun at Link's head and saying "stay here, or wake the fish and leave". He had no choice in that matter, but I'm sure his heart was filled with the desire to do it...