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Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince (SPOILERS!!!)


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#61 Wolf O'Donnell

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 11:01 AM

I just stumbled onto this site because I have been wanting to hear what others have to say about this crazy book :blink:
*
I couldnt believe the whole Snape killing Dumbledore thing... but its starting to make sense to me now.. though I don't want to admit that Snape may have done the right thing.. But I really think he did... I totally agree with the whole DD/Snape argument thing... Its apparent that Dumbledore wanted Malfoy to retain his innocence, so, obviously knowing about the Unbreakble Vow, and knowing that it was either Snape or Draco who had to kill him, he pleaded with Snape to do the right thing and let Malfoy keep his innocence..
*
And I like the thoughts about the locket Kreacher took from Grimmauld place ;) That would be pretty sneaky of JK if its the truth :ph34r:
*
You know what I think is weird? The whole Ginny and Harry thing.. I love the fact they want each other, but whats crazy is that if they do end up together in the end.. They'll look like James and Lily! I mean.. Harry looks like James obviously, and I'm just guessing Ginny looks like Lily what with her long red hair... Am I crazy? hehe.. I just thought that was kinda cool
=^..^=


Oh no! You spoilt it for me! How could you? Now I know who died and I haven't even bought the book yet! WAaaaaahhh!!!

:lol:

Just kidding. I don't intend to buy the book, but seriously, be more careful with your spoilers, okay?

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 11:18 AM

I originally thought that the potions book was a horcrux too but with it being Snapes, that pretty much got dashed.

#63 Veteran

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 11:19 AM

Just kidding. I don't intend to buy the book, but seriously, be more careful with your spoilers, okay?

Careful with the spoilers? This topic is FOR the spoilers! :lol:

#64 Quistis

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 12:05 PM

Yeah, what Veteran said.

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 12:05 PM

I could have sworn JK said that we are going to learn more about Lily in the upcoming books (this was prior to the release of 6. So we obvioulsy know that that would have to be in book 7. This will probably occur in Godric's Hollow. I also read on another website, by someone else: After Snape killed Dumbledore and Harry was in pursuit of Snape in the grounds of Hogwarts, Harry called Snape a coward, in the book starting on page 602 and on...(in the US version) it says, I'm not quoting exactly, but something to the effect of "Snape all of a sudden had a pained look on his face and said 'DO NOT CALL ME A COWARD'" This person aluded to the fact that as not guilty as Snape felt about James' death, he feels ultra guilty about Lily's ('cause if you remember, Lily came to Snape's aid when James and Sirius were messing with him. So, becaus he felt so guilty he made an unbreakble vow to Dumbledore to protect Lily's son for retribution. That's why Dumbledore trusts him more than anyone else. interesting theory I thought. 'cause DD never goes into detail as to why he trusts Snape so much. He quickly gets off the subject.

#66 Quistis

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 12:07 PM

I never heard that JK said that we're going to learn more about Lily, but I don't listen/read interviews.

That's a good theory, but wasn't the unbreakable vow to Draco?

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 12:28 PM

the unbreakable vow was to Narcissa MAlfoy was that if Draco failed to KILL DUmBLEDORE, then Snape would do it. The unbreakable vow that Snape made to Dumbledore (if there was one) was I will protect Harry Potter with my life..so if Harry dies, Snape would die because his vow was broken. Remember, Snape's guilt of Lily's death stemmed from him being the one that overheard Trelawney make the prophecy to Dumbledore and brought it back to Voldemort. Voldy was only supposed to kill James and HArry, but he ended killing Lily too. We can speculate that Snape said "just kill Harry and James and leave Lily be, please." But we know that didn't happen. So he has harbored this incredible guilt that Lily died because of him. Does that make sense?

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 12:31 PM

and to build on that: That may be the reason Snape is betraying Voldemort, if he is. Because Voldemort maybe made a promise to Snape saying "I will not hurt her" and did. So Snape realized then that Voldy was bad news hence his defection (if he did defect) to the good side, if you will and his role as a triple agent.

#69 Danger Mike

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 12:31 PM

This is my sister talking(the justin timberlake girl.) she didnt realize she was in my name and the no double posting rule

someone mentioned something about harry being a horcrux...i too considered this thought but the more i think about it the more i decided it cant be unless harry can destroy his scar without killing himself which seems like a tough task. If harry is a horcrux he would have to kill himself most likely and then kill voldemort.......not possible unless as i said earlier he finds a way to destroy his scar........i'd try laser surgery personally. and voldemort didnt think harry was doing to live when he tried to kill him so the only way he could be a horcruz is if voldemort did it on accident. and i dont think that can happen but then again we still know very little about how to make a horcrux...
and someone else else mentioned dumbldore being one but i donno about that although in someways it could make sense when it comes down to it it is doubtful.

um Wolf Odonnell why the hell are you looking in this thread? and obviously there will be spoilers becuase the title of the thread SAYS SOO!!! stupid

These are not the opinions of the Danger Mike. so they are therefore inferior.

#70 Danger Mike

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 12:34 PM

please delete. my sister (the new one with all the justin timberlake crap) is still getting into LA. she didnt realize she was in my name and the no double posting rule

#71 Jaina

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 12:38 PM

ALROCK and DANGER MIKE: DO NOT DOUBLE POST! Like I stated before..if you have more to say..EDIT YOUR POST! There is a button at the bottom near the bottom that says..Quote, Edit, Reply EDIT dont just post another reply!



In this book yes..Quistis..but Alrock is thinking maybe another one was made.






I am wondering the same thing myself..why did Dumbledore trust Snape so much? Afterall..I would find it really hard to trust somebody who was an ex death eater.. >.> and we all know Dumbledore is far from stupid. He is maybe a little to trusting..which Rowling has even said herself. THe only thing I thought that was going to be in this book that wasnt..was more stuff on Harry's aunt..who seems to know more then she lets on. Maybe that is just something Rowling meant..we would find in the next two books.

#72 Quistis

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 03:44 PM

Yeah, that makes sense.

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 04:23 PM

Yea I remember reading somewhere that something HUGE was supposed to be revealed about Lily Potter in the upcoming books.. It obviously has to do with Snape though.. I mean... if you think about it.. he is really becoming one of the main characters in a sense. It just makes me wonder what he had to do with Lily though if that is true... Any thoughts about the Lily/Snape connection?

#74 Nabooru

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 04:28 PM

Yeah, I something about that, too, Violet7560. So far nothing huge has been revealed about Lily, besides the fact she was as good potions student and is known for having green eyes. Perhaps Lily and Snape dated a some point during their attendance at Hogwarts? It may seem ridiculous, but that's all I can really think of at the moment. O_o

#75 31-Year-Old-From-Georgia

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 05:05 PM

Who wants to bet Harry is a Horcrux?

Now, that would make for a dramatic ending.

EDIT: And it all makes sense, too. After all a part of Voldermort's soul seems to be in Harry.

#76 wisp

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 05:34 PM

O______________________O

Interesting thought.. but I don't know if it's possible. Hope not. o.o;;

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 05:56 PM

Yea I remember reading somewhere that something HUGE was supposed to be revealed about Lily Potter in the upcoming books.. It obviously has to do with Snape though.. I mean... if you think about it.. he is really becoming one of the main characters in a sense. It just makes me wonder what he had to do with Lily though if that is true... Any thoughts about the Lily/Snape connection?


well we now know that Snape is half blood, his father was a muggle, Lily was muggle-born, maybe Snape's muggle father, and one of Lily's parents are brothers? Or brother and sister? Or like someone said earlier, they had a relationship once upon time.

Maybe that's where Petunia will come in?

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 07:24 PM

I can't really see Lily and Snape dating...but as I've learned from this books, you can expect nearly anything. But in the fifth book, when Harry goes into Snape's pensive, Snape calls Lily a Mudblood...which is not really a good term of affection. If I had to guess a connection, I would have to agree with them perhaps being somewhere related by family.

About the locket, I checked my OofP last night to see if there were any good description of it. Of course, JK probably expected people to recheck for such. The only thing it said about the locket was that it was heavy. Lotsa help that is :P

#79 wisp

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 07:30 PM

Nice of Snape to call her a mudblood when he's one himself, eh?

I'm thinking that's gotta be the locket Harry's looking for though.

#80 Nabooru

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 07:32 PM

Ohhh, I forgot that he called her a mudblood. If that's the case, then no, I doubt they dated each other. Unless he called her that after they broke up, but the relationship deal sounds unlikely. Being related by family, however, seems very possible.

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 08:26 PM

You know... I bet Petunia WILL play a part with the Lily/Snape thing... They have to be related somehow.. and someone said this before but I dont remember who (sorry) but Petunia seems to know more than she lets on about the wizarding world.. I dunno... Im thinking maybe she will talk more?
*
And about the Dumbledore painting in his old office... he can speak freely right? I mean.. the other portraits seem to always be involved and stuff... I mean... do you think maybe HE could end up answering more of our unknown questions in the next book and helping out Harry a little bit more even after his death?

#82 Quistis

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 09:14 PM

Nice of Snape to call her a mudblood when he's one himself, eh?

I'm thinking that's gotta be the locket Harry's looking for though.



Snape wasn't a mudblood. He's half-blood.

#83 wisp

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 09:17 PM

Yes, I know. But I don't consider the two terms to be different enough to matter. Neither is a pureblood, and that's all that matters to the pureblood elitists.

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 11:31 PM

about dumbledores portrait........i may be thinking a lil too far on the star wars side of things but maybe dumbledore will be more powerful after life than he was during just like obewan? because now he can converse with harry as much as he ever could and he really wont have to worry about voldemort getting to dumbledore through harry because hes already dead? i donnno i guess well just have to wait and see

#85 Jaina

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 12:17 AM

Yeaah ilovejt is right on that >.> we never will know for sure what will come about until book seven.







For those who havent read..this interview was done right after the book came out..and well has some good info:

http://www.mugglenet...interview.shtml
http://www.mugglenet...nterview2.shtml

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 07:16 PM

i looked back into the order of the phoenix and at the end dumbledore tells harry that the room he couldnt get into at the department of mysteries is always locked and is full of love or something.. which makes me think that harry will end up paying this place a visit in order to destroy voldemort. if any1 else can figure out something from that let me know.
i was also wondering since all the old headmasters(mistresses) get paintings up in the headmasters office, does that mean umbridge will one day get one too? hope not.
as to going back to school or not, it does sound like harry will just go off on his own because he has a lot of work to do, but i wish he would go back for one he needs to learn more spells cuz he doesnt know enough yet i think ti kill voldemort. also, i being a sports nut missed the quidditch matches, seeing as how there were none in the triwizard cup, one in OoTP b4 he got kicked out, then one match before he got knocked out and then the detention with snape. so i hope he goes back at least to play some more, even though hes got other stuff to be getting on with.
oh and one more thing, i dont remember the name but at the start of HBP two wizards are mentioned dead, one being madam bones that chick from the courts, but what was that other persons job- did we meet this person at an earlier time? all i know is i cant wait till the next book comes out, but i personally would rather wait three years if the book was 900 pages rather than 2 years and only 600 pages again. that was my only dissapointment- the books seemed to be getting progressively longer until this one, which meant less time reading and more time wishing for the next one already.

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 09:27 PM

First, a general comment: the beautiful thing about the Harry Potter (HP) books is that they are not just kids’ books. My wife and I are both college instructors (She teaches communication, I teach English literature), and we love the HP books (my nephew turned us onto them).

Now, my thoughts about the latest book.

DUMBLEDORE IS NOT DEAD and SNAPE HAS NOT GONE OVER TO THE DARK SIDE! After reading all of JK’s books twice or more, I have finally figured out her style. And while reading this latest book, I was struck by how many clues she left making it clear that a) Snape did not kill Dumbledore, and B) Snape is still working for Dumbledore, even if the Order does not realize it. Allow me to explain.

Here’s why I think Dumbledore (D for short) is not dead – First, he had forewarning of the events. We learn in Chapter 27 (The Lightning-Struck Tower) that D was aware of Draco’s ongoing attempts to kill him throughout the year. However, what many readers may have missed was that D was also aware of the imminent attack by the Death Eaters. How, you ask? He was forewarned by Professor Trelawney. In Chapter 25 (The Seer Overheard), Professor T explains to HP that she does not think D will want to see her. She explains, “The headmaster has intimated that he would prefer fewer visits from me. I am not one to press my company upon those who do not value it. If Dumbledore wants to ignore the warnings the cards show … Again and again, no matter how I lay them out – the lightning-struck tower. Calamity. Disaster. Coming nearer all the time…” (p. 543).

Now consider D’s words to Draco about options: “I can help you, Draco. [Voldemort] cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine” (pp. 591-92). Hmmm…I wonder if the same is not true of D as well as Draco. If D were to fake his death, he could fly under the proverbial radar and work behind the scenes to help HP defeat Voldemort, perhaps far more effectively than he could if he had to report back to Hogwart’s and the nosey Ministry regularly.

If you still doubt the possibility that D might have faked his own death with Snape’s help, consider these additional tidbits. Let’s start with the description of D’s dead body: “Dumbledore’s eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of the arms and legs, he might have been sleeping” (p. 608). Uhhh…perhaps he is just sleeping? Or consider the disposal of D’s body. At the funeral, Hagrid carries D’s body, but is it really D's body? We don't know because we never actually see D’s body; what we see is Hagrid carrying a “purple velvet spangled with golden stars” (p. 643). Harry just assumes it is D's body. (And remember, it was Hagrid who moved D’s body following his death.) Finally, consider this bit of symbolic foreshadowing: “White smoke spiraled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but the next second the fire had vanished” (p. 645). A phoenix? The symbol of death and rebirth? After six HP books, we should know that such symbolism has significance. Rowling does not usually waste such images.

Now, this interpretation, of course, relies on Snape being a good guy working for D as opposed to a bad guy working for V. And there’s certainly some ambiguity here, but clearly, D trusts Snape, and not for the silly reason HP gives (about Snape being remorseful over telling V about the prophecy) to the others in the infirmary. We see this trust throughout the book, but we see it most clearly following D and HP’s return from the Cave. When HP says he will go get Madame Pomfrey to help, D insists he get Snape instead. He insists not once, not twice, but three times no less! Then, when they fly to the tower, D tells HP, “Go and wake Severus. Tell him what has happened [about the Dark Mark] and bring him to me. Do nothing else…” (p. 583). If D did not trust Snape completely, he would not tell HP to go get him, especially when the castle is under siege! (And don’t forget that D had forewarning regarding this attack, which means he had plenty of time to whip up a counterplan with Snape.) That’s why I don’t buy the narrator’s assertion that D was fearful of and “pleading” with Snape when he finally arrived at the tower.

And let’s talk about that tower scene a little more. Does anyone else find it a little odd that Snape comes upon the scene, pushes Draco aside, and kills D, just like that? This is especially interesting since the other Death Eaters refused to do the deed because their orders were that Draco – no one else – should kill D. Does Snape not know that these are the orders? Of course he does. And yet, in the next chapter, Snape chastises two Death Eaters who attack HP with a spell: “No!” roared Snape’s voice…; “Have you forgotten our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord – we are to leave him alone! Go! Go!” (p. 603). Now, call me crazy, but it sure seems like Snape is insisting on following orders here when it comes to protecting HP. Why, then, the rush to disobey orders when it came to killing D unless something deeper is going on?

Consider also the description of the effects of Snape’s spell on D in the last paragraph of chapter 27. The spell strikes D in the chest and blasts him into the air. But then, “for a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight” (p. 596). He fell “slowly”? Like a “rag doll”? You know, when I was young, I had a Raggedy Andy doll, and that thing’s legs and arms could get twisted up in all kinds of weird ways. If it could have closed its eyes, you’d have sworn it was sleeping! My point here is that maybe the death curse Snape cast wasn’t really a death curse at all. Don’t forget that Snape was quite adept in his youth of writing spells – just ask HP and Draco, who both learned firsthand how creative and advanced Snape’s original spells could be!

Also, consider Snape’s attitude and behavior toward HP in chapter 28 (The Flight of the Prince). He has many chances to hurt or kill Potter (at one point, he’s standing over a defenseless Harry but does nothing to hurt him). Or consider his comments to Harry as he effortlessly blocks spell after spell from the young wizard: “Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!” (p. 603). Call me crazy again, but I have to ask why Snape would tell his enemy that he can block all of Harry's attacks because HP cannot spell silently nor close his mind. Doesn’t this seem like a big-time advantage Snape would want to keep to himself? Can anyone imagine a school bully telling his intended victim, "Hey, the reason you can't hurt me with your fists is because I can see your punches coming and therefore can block them with ease. You might try kicking me with your foot instead. That would make it harder for me to defend myself." I seriously doubt any bully would say this. So why would Snape essentially tell Harry how to more effectively fight? If Harry is truly Snape's enemy, he would never have said this. But if Snape is still working against Voldemort and on the side of good, he would say something to this effect. Therefore, I prefer to read this statement as the last lesson Professor Snape, a double-agent working for the Order by seemingly betraying the Order, offers his young pupil. After all, if Harry can’t hurt Snape because he’s telegraphing his spells, he surely won’t be able to hurt Voldemort, whose even more powerful than Snape.

So there you have it. These are some of the main reasons (I have others as well, but these are the biggies) why I am convinced that Dumbledore is still alive and why I think Snape is still ultimately an Order of the Phoenix ally and not an enemy. I would welcome any comments and criticism from anyone who has put forth the effort to read this extended analysis.

Thanks for your time.

#88 Guest_Violet7560_*

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:23 PM

Ok... well first off.... you said,
"And let’s talk about that tower scene a little more. Does anyone else find it a little odd that Snape comes upon the scene, pushes Draco aside, and kills D, just like that? This is especially interesting since the other Death Eaters refused to do the deed because their orders were that Draco – no one else – should kill D. Does Snape not know that these are the orders? Of course he does. And yet, in the next chapter, Snape chastises two Death Eaters who attack HP with a spell: “No!” roared Snape’s voice…; “Have you forgotten our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord – we are to leave him alone! Go! Go!” (p. 603). Now, call me crazy, but it sure seems like Snape is insisting on following orders here when it comes to protecting HP. Why, then, the rush to disobey orders when it came to killing D unless something deeper was going on here? "
*
My answer would be because of the Unbreakable Vow. Snape had to kill Dumbledore if Malfoy couldnt. That's what the Vow was, and it was obvious that Malfoy wasnt going to kill Dumbledore and knowing this, Snape brought it upon himself to do the deed, or else he would have been dead himself for breaking the Vow and letting Draco fail his 'mission' for Voldemort.It's apparent that Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow, most likely because of the argument that Snape and Albus had in the forest(probably Snape arguing about having to kill Dumbledore [my opinion]), but Dumbledore knew he was destined to die because he knew there was still an innocence left in Draco, enough for the time being that Draco wouldnt be able to bring himself to killing anyone.
* You said...
"My point here is that maybe the death curse Snape cast wasn’t really a death curse at all. Don’t forget that Snape was quite adept in his youth of writing spells – just ask HP and Draco, who both learned firsthand how creative and advances Snape’s original spells could be!"
*
I dont think you can go wrong with the 'Avada Kedavra' spell. If you get Avada Kedavra... you're pretty dead and I dont think there is any faking that spell.
* You said...
"consider the disposal of D’s body. At the funeral, Hagrid carries D’s body, or does he? We never actually see D’s body; what we see is Hagrid carrying a “purple velvet spangled with golden stars” (p. 643). (And remember, it was Hagrid who moved D’s body following his death.) Finally, consider this bit of symbolic foreshadowing: “White smoke spiraled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but the next second the fire had vanished” (p. 645). A phoenix? The symbol of death and rebirth? After six HP books, we should know that such symbolism has significance. Rowling does not usually waste such images. "
*
This is a little odd, yes, but still... He was killed off with Avada Kedavra and his portrait already showed up in the Headmistresses office. Its my opinion, but I believe Dumbledore is completely gone from the physical world..he knew it was his time to go.... BUT.... I do believe he will live on in his portrait at Hogwarts, which I am VERY much hoping Harry will go back to so he can talk to Dumbledore that way..
*
*and cantwaittill#7......
About Quidditch... if you read the interview JK gave, she made it clear that that was the last Quidditch game in HBP, the one where Luna was commentating. But she never said Harry was never going back did she? I REALLY hope he does just for the fact of the new portait of Dumbledore.

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:49 PM

Violet,

I guess we'll see who is right in about two years. :-) Who knows, maybe we both will be. When I was 10, I read the Fellowship of the Ring. I was crushed when Gandalf died. When I asked my older brother if Gandalf was really dead or if he would be return in the later two books, he responded, "No, Gandalf the Grey is definitely dead." When Gandalf returned in the Two Towers, I accused my brother of lying. He said, "I never lied. Gandalf the Grey did indeed die in the first book. This new guy is named Gandalf the White." Who knows what JK has up her sleeve, but I am still not persuaded that D would willingly let Snape kill him as some here have suggested. But I could be wrong. Like I said, we'll know in a few years :-(

#90 Veteran

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 06:02 AM

I like your theory, acespeedracer. You've given me hope!

It all hinges on the Unbreakable Vow. We don't know exactly how it works. For inctance, if Narcissa Malfoy (the one who brought about the vow) believes the vow to be completed, then the tie between Draco, Snape, and the deed itself would be over also.
We just don't know.




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