151 replies to this topic

[mohammedali]

Here you're using one theory (of two separate timelines being created at the end of Ocarina of Time) to validate another theory (that Tingle met with Link from timeline A and then ran off to timeline B).

lol. Not at all. Firstly, I'm not validating ANY theory, just saying there are 2 possibilities. Secondly, the reason I restricted the theory to split timelines, is because that is the only place there is a dispute. There is no question if Tingle can travel between two seperate timelines via Termina in a single timeline, because there isn't another timeline to consider.

You're not addressing the question - how is suggesting that the seal was renewed off screen inbetween TWW and LttP any worse than suggesting that the sealing took place off screen inbetween OoT and LttP?

Let us compare:
The idea of the seal being renewed was never mentioned in any game and is purely fanfic. In fact, it goes against the canon as aLttP mentions Ganon being sealed and suggests he never left before aLttP happens.
The idea of the seal being created in Child Link universe between OoT and aLttP is the only way that all facts can be true. It also uses the exact booklet information so it doesn't rely on fanfic like the above idea does.

Mohammed Ali

[Crazy Penguin]

lol. Not at all. Firstly, I'm not validating ANY theory, just saying there are 2 possibilities. Secondly, the reason I restricted the theory to split timelines, is because that is the only place there is a dispute. There is no question if Tingle can travel between two seperate timelines via Termina in a single timeline, because there isn't another timeline to consider.

And therein the problem lies. The split timeline theory creates a problem with the MM reference in TWW. You then have to patch that problem up with another theory that has absolutely no basis.

Theories should exist to solve problems, if it creates more problems to solve then it has failed.

Let us compare:
The idea of the seal being renewed was never mentioned in any game and is purely fanfic. In fact, it goes against the canon as aLttP mentions Ganon being sealed and suggests he never left before aLttP happens.
The idea of the seal being created in Child Link universe between OoT and aLttP is the only way that all facts can be true. It also uses the exact booklet information so it doesn't rely on fanfic like the above idea does.

Mohammed Ali

The idea of the series taking place over two timelines due to the after effects of time travel is never mentioned in any game. The idea of Ganon being sealed twice (multiple timelines or not) is never mentioned in any game. The idea of Termina being a hub between multiple timelines is never mentioned in any game.

Ganon's sealing in Ocarina of Time was the sealing mentioned in LttP's backstory. What you are theorising is a retcon where that is no longer true.

I'm not necessarily saying that it's an invalid theory, but you should acknowledge that it would be just that, a fanficcy retcon.

[mohammedali]

And therein the problem lies. The split timeline theory creates a problem with the MM reference in TWW. You then have to patch that problem up with another theory that has absolutely no basis.

Theories should exist to solve problems, if it creates more problems to solve then it has failed.

And therein the problem lies. The single timeline theory creates a problem with the OoT reference in aLttP. How does Ganon both come back to Hyrule between OoT and aLttP AND never escape the SR? It's impossible. You then have to patch that problem up with another theory that has absolutely no basis AND contradicts the canon.

Theories should exist to solve problems, if it creates more problems to solve then it has failed ESPECIALLY if it goes against what is fact

Just because a single timeline avoids there being 2 possibilites, doesn't make it definate at all. Infact, to say there is one timeline create MUCH bigger problems then there being 2 possibilities.

The idea of the series taking place over two timelines due to the after effects of time travel is never mentioned in any game.

It's suggested in the ending of OoT. It is implicit by the fact that OoT has WW as a sequal without the Triforce changing hands inbetween, AND OoT has aLttP as a sequal without Ganon escaping the SR, it is EVEN supported by a quote from the game creators.

The idea of Ganon being sealed twice (multiple timelines or not) is never mentioned in any game.

OoT mentions one seal. aLttP mentions one that I consider to be different.

The idea of Termina being a hub between multiple timelines is never mentioned in any game.

Termina is officially said to be a completely different universe. There is nothing to suggest that you can't go between two other universes from a seperate universe. In fact, it seems to be obvious that you can.

Ganon's sealing in Ocarina of Time was the sealing mentioned in LttP's backstory. What you are theorising is a retcon where that is no longer true.

It could be a retcon, it could be what they planned all along. I don't know what the creators were thinking. What I DO know, however, is that there is no other way that I have ever come across that resolves the differences completely and doesn't make any major contradictions other than this possability.

I'm not necessarily saying that it's an invalid theory, but you should acknowledge that it would be just that, a fanficcy retcon.

No. It's not 'fanficcy' if it uses all the official information (and ONLY official information) in the one (and only one) way it can possibly work. It seems to me that you have avoided every problem in your own theory, and in place have just kept to the line that my idea is based on fanfac when I have shown much information to the contrarary.

Mohammed Ali

[Crazy Penguin]

The single timeline theory...

It's not a theory, it's the default.

OoT mentions one seal. aLttP mentions one that I consider to be different.

The creators of Ocarina of Time didn't consider it to be different.

No. It's not 'fanficcy' if it uses all the official information (and ONLY official information) in the one (and only one) way it can possibly work. It seems to me that you have avoided every problem in your own theory, and in place have just kept to the line that my idea is based on fanfac when I have shown much information to the contrarary.

Where are we officially told that Hyrule and the Triforce come back after The Wind Waker?

-
All of the "evidence" for a split timeline is circumstancial and more often than not taken out of context.

I admit that there is basis for believing LttP and WW to take place in separate continuities. But that isn't the same as a split timeline.

If we're ever told in an upcoming game that there was a split in the timeline with WW on one side and MM and LttP on the other then that's all fine and well. But until then it remains a theory and nothing more, and a shaky one at best.

[mohammedali]

It's not a theory, it's the default.

No. It's a theory and a poor one at that, as it has many more flaws then the alternative. Just because you consider it the default, doesn't mean it is.

The creators of Ocarina of Time didn't consider it to be different.

Firstly, even if there was only one IW, then a split timeline would still be necessary to keep everything else consistant.
Secondly, if the creators DID consider it to be the same like you are claiming, then you tell me how Ganon can be sealed in OoT but escape before WW without the Triforce changing hands, AND stay sealed all the way until aLttP happens? I look forward to hearing what you say.

Where are we officially told that Hyrule and the Triforce come back after The Wind Waker?

We're not, but that part is not in question. Man, you're really trying hard to divert attention here. Not only have you avoided all my questions, you are now moving on to other parts of my timeline that have nothing to do with the IW. Looks like you're doing anything to avoid being shown as wrong on this point.

All of the "evidence" for a split timeline is circumstancial and more often than not taken out of context.

A very vaigue and even poorer comeback. Try to elaborate on what you mean if you're going to make a claim like that.

I admit that there is basis for believing LttP and WW to take place in separate continuities. But that isn't the same as a split timeline.

But this isn't about what you think. This is about what you can theorise and support. So far, you haven't given a strong theory, and I have already provided reason for why it is impossible. You haven't addressed this once in the numerous posts I've written it in.

If we're ever told in an upcoming game that there was a split in the timeline with WW on one side and MM and LttP on the other then that's all fine and well. But until then it remains a theory and nothing more, and a shaky one at best.

lol. Coming from someone who not only fails to address every problem with the barebones of the theory he has provided so far, further fails to provide any details. People in glass houses really shouldn't throw stones. I respect you and you're posts, but you really aren't doing yourself any favours by avoiding my questions, and using no evidence to counter mine.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Alright, that's it, this is getting childish. Mohammed, is it possible for you to respond to someone's post without obvious attempts to goad them on?

Also, that quote by Anouma states nothing. He simply states that the game's ending covers two different time peroids, the past and the future. Which is true. It cuts back and forth. Nothing he says states it's a split timeline. If, for example, he was talking about Majora's Mask, he would of said it occured sometime after the ending where Link was a child.

But he wasn't.

[mohammedali]

Alright, that's it, this is getting childish.  Mohammed, is it possible for you to respond to someone's post without obvious attempts to goad them on?

I don't know what you mean by 'attempts to goad', but I am just responding and stimulating the debate. However, I will try to calm it down if people are getting uncomfortable.

Also, that quote by Anouma states nothing.  He simply states that the game's ending covers two different time peroids, the past and the future.  Which is true.  It cuts back and forth.  Nothing he says states it's a split timeline.  If, for example, he was talking about Majora's Mask, he would of said it occured sometime after the ending where Link was a child.

But he wasn't.

He says there are 2 endings, and WW takes place after the Adult Link ending. I don't think he was refering to WW being 100s of years after Adult OoT, but 100s of years plus 7 after Childs OoT as this would be pointless. The fact he has said there are 2 endings and WW is after one, and given the 2 different Hyrules at the end of OoT, it seems to me an obvious reference to a split. If not, then please share what you think he meant.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

To be quite honest, I don't think he was referring to anything. I don't think he was thinking that complex. I think he was just talking simply for the interviewer's and reader's sake. They're not all timeline freaks, obviously. The fact was, it did appear to be two seperate endings, and he was just trying to make clear that this happens hundreds of years after Ganon was sealed.

[mohammedali]

To be quite honest, I don't think he was referring to anything.  I don't think he was thinking that complex.  I think he was just talking simply for the interviewer's and reader's sake.  They're not all timeline freaks, obviously.  The fact was, it did appear to be two seperate endings, and he was just trying to make clear that this happens hundreds of years after Ganon was sealed.

Actually, in that particular interview Miyamoto-san had to prompt Anouma-san for the full responce several times before he gave the full explination. It was clear that this was something they were fully aware of. To say there are two endings and this takes place after one suggests it doesn't take place after the other ending. If it did, then why bother mentioning it? Why would Miyamoto-san push Anouma to say it when giving his answer? If you really don't want to accept a duel timeline then that's fine, but the information we have shouldn't be brushed aside just because it causes upsets to our current timelines.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Ok, here's the apparently 'uncut' version from Gamepro..

Q: Where does The Wind Walker fit into the overall Zelda series timeline?
Aonuma: You can think of this game as taking place over a hundred years after Ocarina of Time. You can tell this from the opening story, and there are references to things from Ocarina located throughout the game as well.
Miyamoto: Well, wait, which point does the hundred years start from?
Aonuma: From the end.
Miyamoto: No, I mean, as a child or as a...
Aonuma: Oh, right, let me elaborate on that. Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts; one has Link as a child and the other has him as an adult. This game, The Wind Waker, takes place a hundred years after the adult Link defeats Ganon at the end of Ocarina.
Miyamoto: This is pretty confusing for us, too. (laughs) So be careful.

Miyamoto's words 'which point do the hundred years start from?' seems to imply a difference in time rather than two different timelines altogether. I have a feeling they are just making a thing about a seven year difference, but only for clarity, not that it hugely matters.

But I honestly don't know. The whole thing is odd and ambigous. If they had meant a split timeline, why didn't they make it more clear? The words they use suggest it's just two different points in time where you could begin counting the hundred years, and you should start counting at the 'adult' ending.

[mohammedali]

Miyamoto's words 'which point do the hundred years start from?' seems to imply a difference in time rather than two different timelines altogether.  I have a feeling they are just making a thing about a seven year difference, but only for clarity, not that it hugely matters.

Firstly, the hundred year thing is a common translation error as Japanese doesn't have plurals. Hence, it should be hundreds of years. This would mean you are suggesting Miyamoto-san wanted to make it clear that WW takes place 100s of years plus 7 years, instead of 100s of years. This seems extremely unlikely considering 100s of years plus 7 years would ALSO be called 100s of years, and it doesn't seem likely that Miyamoto-san would be pushing Anouma-san so much for such an unneccesary detail wouldn't you agree?

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Like I said, I honestly don't know, and it all depends on how accurate the translation is. After all, the NoA version didn't have that bit at all. There's lots of versions of that interview that claim to be unedited, but they're all somewhat different.

I still don't understand why they wouldn't make more it obvious that the Zelda series would split into two paths.

I still don't buy that the Imprisoning War was a seperate deal from the events of OoT. How are the Sages awakened without Link doing anything? Where are the so-called 'Knights of Hyrule'? If Link had not existed in the future of OoT, Ganon would of ruled the world. That's the whole point.

And it still doesn't explain the Tingle thing.

So I'm still iffy about the idea of a split timeline.

[mohammedali]

Like I said, I honestly don't know, and it all depends on how accurate the translation is.  After all, the NoA version didn't have that bit at all.  There's lots of versions of that interview that claim to be unedited, but they're all somewhat different.

Yet all of the translations have the 2 endings thing in common. Hence, it's unlikely that was a mistranslation.

I still don't understand why they wouldn't make more it obvious that the Zelda series would split into two paths.

WW is a sequal to OoT without the Triforce changing hands inbetween.
aLttP is a sequal to OoT without Ganon leaving the SR inbetween.
Only one is possible in any one universe, implying a split. Seems obvious enough to me.

I still don't buy that the Imprisoning War was a seperate deal from the events of OoT.  How are the Sages awakened without Link doing anything?

We know the King called for the sages (aLttP booklet). Maybe Link could have told the King who they were for all we know. Maybe they psychiclly knew after they were 'awoken' in the other universe. Whatever it is, we are explicitly told that the King sent for the sages after Ganon went to the SR.

Where are the so-called 'Knights of Hyrule'?

They are Hyrules army that is spoken about in aLttP BS. Just because we may not see them in OoT, doesn't mean they don't exist.

If Link had not existed in the future of OoT, Ganon would of ruled the world.  That's the whole point.

Not really. Link went round awakening sages as an adult because he could only fight the temple bosses when he was older. However, if he knew before hand who the sages were (i.e. as a child), he, or someone else like the king, could have simply said 'These are the sages, call them to help make a seal'. Alternatively, the 7 sages may have known after they were awoken in the other universe. Who knows, but it is possible.

And it still doesn't explain the Tingle thing.

The Tingle thing can be explained, as I said before, using the fact that Termina is in another universe. Because of this fact, there is no reason why Tingle has to be constrained to one timeline, as he may be able to travel between both using Termina as an intermediatry.

So I'm still iffy about the idea of a split timeline.

Hope that helps clear up some doubts. Sorry if it was a bit rushed, but I'm in a hurry.

Mohammed Ali

[MikePetersSucks]

WW is a sequal to OoT without the Triforce changing hands inbetween.
aLttP is a sequal to OoT without Ganon leaving the SR inbetween.
Only one is possible in any one universe, implying a split. Seems obvious enough to me.

Well, it could be possible that TWW happened, then the events of FSA playing the part of the Imprisoning War. People are doing all sorts of crap with the timeline nowadays. LA changed from bein LTTP's sequel to OOX's.

Not really. Link went round awakening sages as an adult because he could only fight the temple bosses when he was older. However, if he knew before hand who the sages were (i.e. as a child), he, or someone else like the king, could have simply said 'These are the sages, call them to help make a seal'. Alternatively, the 7 sages may have known after they were awoken in the other universe. Who knows, but it is possible.

But the King can't use the Master Sword or fight monsters. And I doubt Sages could awaken themselves without Link's aide only because it happened in another universe. That's like saying Seals work backwards in time, which is bullcrap.

[Hero of Slime]

How is FSA the Imprisoning War? In FSA there is no war and Ganon is sealed in Four Sword.

[mohammedali]

Well, it could be possible that TWW happened, then the events of FSA playing the part of the Imprisoning War. People are doing all sorts of crap with the timeline nowadays. LA changed from bein LTTP's sequel to OOX's.

But you have to admit, people saying the IW had nothing to do with OoT at all is worse than fanfic, it's against the canon.

But the King can't use the Master Sword or fight monsters. And I doubt Sages could awaken themselves without Link's aide only because it happened in another universe. That's like saying Seals work backwards in time, which is bullcrap.

The MS was most likely not used in the IW. If you read the Jap booklet you will see it says the sages searched for a hero and the MS, but as time was short the knights had to be used. This to me suggests Link had no part of the IW, but was involved in part of aLttP BS.

As for the seal. I recon Link just told the King who the sages were and hence (as aLttP BS confirms), the King sent for them. I guess the sages awakening themselves is a little silly.

Mohammed Ali

[Zythe]

How is FSA the Imprisoning War? In FSA there is no war and Ganon is sealed in Four Sword.

There kind of was, at least set directly before it. Oh, and by sticking the FS in the Sacred Realm with Ganon inside, you also solve the PotFS mystery.

[MikePetersSucks]

How is FSA the Imprisoning War? In FSA there is no war and Ganon is sealed in Four Sword.

The Master Sword is nowhere to be found, there's seven Maidens, the Knights of Hyrule are present, Ganon is sealed (allowing him to wander the Sacred Realm and claim the Triforce.)

But you have to admit, people saying the IW had nothing to do with OoT at all is worse than fanfic, it's against the canon.

True, which is why I sum the issue up as all the events between OOT and a little after FSA as the Imprisoning War. ALL the games had a part in sealing him, so

[Hero of Slime]

Ganon is sealed (allowing him to wander the Sacred Realm and claim the Triforce.)

Ganon was sealed in the Four Sword. Nothing says he was ever put into Sacred Realm during FSA.

[Showsni]

But you have to admit, people saying the IW had nothing to do with OoT at all is worse than fanfic, it's against the canon.

How's it against the canon? There's nothing in any game that says the IW is OoT explicitly; if anything, in a single timeline, you have to say that OoT isn't the IW to make the inconsistencies vanish.

[Fyxe]

OF YOU COULD REMEMBER THAT THE BACKSTORY OF ALTTP IS ALL LEGEND AND IS THUS NOT LIKELY TO BE 100% ACCURATE.

Sorry, I'm not shouting, I thought that deserved capitals because people seem to be forgetting the obvious.

It's not like the intro of WW is an exact recollection. Why should the backstory of ALttP be a perfect recollection of the events?

[Hero of Slime]

Why would the creators of LttP put the backstory in there if it was not true?

[Showsni]

All the games are legends. If you're going by the distorted over time theory we could put anything anywhere.

[Fyxe]

Why would they make OoT so damn similar to the Imprisoning War, and change the text of ALttP for the re-release to make the links even more obvious, if they didn't mean it to be the true account of the Imprisoning War?

Also, don't forget this quote in one of davogone's articles.

This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."

[Showsni]

OoT isn't that similar to the Imprisoning War. The only real similarities are that Ganon is sealed in the Sacred Realm by some sages, it is set in Hyrule, Ganon leads some thieves, and assumedly there is a fight between Ganon's men and the people of Hyrule.
If they wanted to make the rereleased version of ALttP more like OoT, why didn't they change the glaring inaccuracies? Instead, they've changed the word old man to sage, which is barely any difference - a sage means an old wise person.

And quotes from the makers aren't really canon. They might have intended to make the game similar to ALttP's backstory at the time, but the final version is very different, and they can change their minds.

[Fyxe]

OoT isn't that similar to the Imprisoning War. The only real similarities are that Ganon is sealed in the Sacred Realm by some sages, it is set in Hyrule, Ganon leads some thieves, and assumedly there is a fight between Ganon's men and the people of Hyrule.

Sorry, but that's a whole heap of similarities right there.

If they had changed ALL the inaccuracies in ALttP's backstory it would be like playing a whole other game. It wasn't a remake after all, just a re-release.

Are you seriously telling me that they originally intended the game to be the Imprisoning War, made it so utterly similar, then decided at the last minute 'nah, changed our minds, lets add some inaccuracies'.

Honestly, ignoring quotes like that is similar to just sticking your head in the sand if you ask me.

Also, Ganon did not necessarily attack with his own 'men'...

Notice that it is only implied that the army attacked the castle. In fact, maybe it did not, maybe they just advanced toward the castle (it actually says Royal Palace).

Also notice how it's not described as an "evil army" swarming from the Sacred Realm. Rather, it is once again Ganon's "jyaki," his "malice" or "evil mood." So for all we know, it could have been a cloud of darkness, or just Ganon himself, advancing toward the castle.

[Hero of Slime]

In Ocarina of time there is no mention of the Hylian Knights fighting Ganon. There had to have been Knights in the Imprisoning War because Link is decended from them.

[Hero of Winds]

In Ocarina of time there is no mention of the Hylian Knights fighting Ganon. There had to have been Knights in the Imprisoning War because Link is decended from them.

Before you pull out the Master Sword for the first time, the Knights are all alive and serving their country. Seven years later, there's nothing but scraps of armor and bones. Put two and two together.

[Hero of Slime]

You never see the Hylian Knights in OoT.

[Fyxe]

Technically that doesn't mean they didn't exist. They may of been within Hyrule Castle and got wiped out by Ganon when he attacked. I don't believe the normal soldiers you see were the Hylian Knights, rather I believe they're like the warriors you see in FSA. But just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist; you never see the king or hardly anything in Hyrule Castle, after all.

Either that, or Link is the only 'Hylian Knight', and the legends of the Hylian Knights derived from his existence, because nobody could accept that one kid alone could fight the wielder of the Triforce.

I prefer to believe the former, however. They probably fought bravely to defend Hyrule but were eliminated, just as in the backstory of ALttP.