151 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

The cartoons aren't much of an ending... Ganon's still around with the triforce of power...
TWW would seem to be the ending, what with Hyrule being destroyed in it. But aLttP would probably make the best feeling ending - the Master Sword sleeping, Ganon dead, the triforce whole...

[Chaltab]

But that would mean the Triforce was used after Kamigami no Triforce; but it is supposed to sleep...

FOREVER!

[mohammedali]

The cartoons aren't much of an ending... Ganon's still around with the triforce of power...
TWW would seem to be the ending, what with Hyrule being destroyed in it. But aLttP would probably make the best feeling ending - the Master Sword sleeping, Ganon dead, the triforce whole...

aLttP can't be the ending due to the simple fact that it is stated as being a game which has NES Link and Zeldas desendants in it. WW OTOH, could be if you put it in a seperate timeline, however this still means that there is another ending for the other timeline.

Mohammed Ali

[Zythe]

But that would mean the Triforce was used after Kamigami no Triforce; but it is supposed to sleep...

FOREVER!

The master sword is the only thing that sleeps with a block caps "FOREVER".

[Fyxe]

And even then it still gets used two more times.

[Zythe]

^ Says who?

[Fyxe]

Says Kodai no Seikiban and the Oracle games. >.>

Unless you don't want to count them for various reasons that just seem, to me, to boil down to 'ah my head hurts I can't place them, I'll stick them somewhere else'.

It's not like I blame you, FSA in particular does all sorts of crazy things, but the Oracles have too many connections to other games. After all, it is about the revival of Ganon. They fit in fine anytime after ALttP/LA.

I don't think people should disount them just cos of that quote at the end of ALttP that was mainly there for dramatic effect and a nice ending, not to be taken as the pure truth.

[mohammedali]

Says Kodai no Seikiban and the Oracle games. >.>

Says your opinion you mean. We don't know enough about AST yet as our one source is unreliable, so let's leave this for the time being. This leaves Oracles which can be placed somewhere else.

Unless you don't want to count them for various reasons that just seem, to me, to boil down to 'ah my head hurts I can't place them, I'll stick them somewhere else'.

lol - that's exactly what you would be doing if you disregard the MS sleeps forever line.

It's not like I blame you, FSA in particular does all sorts of crazy things, but the Oracles have too many connections to other games.  After all, it is about the revival of Ganon.  They fit in fine anytime after ALttP/LA.

As well as with WW.

I don't think people should disount them just cos of that quote at the end of ALttP that was mainly there for dramatic effect and a nice ending, not to be taken as the pure truth.

Fact is that there are ways that both can work. Even if they don't, you also have to remember that the MS was only a bonus item in OoX. There is every chance that Link doesn't even find it in his adventure and so it did indeed sleep forever.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

lol - that's exactly what you would be doing if you disregard the MS sleeps forever line.

Hardly, I'm just discounting a line that was clearly there for dramatic effect, I'm not discounting an entire game from the timeline. Big difference, c'mon.

[martinDTanderson]

Well In my idea, ALttP is the end of a timeline with regards to the Triforce and Master Sword, and I think it is a great ending!

AoL's ending isnt as good, as Ganon's followers are still searching for a way to Revive Ganon, and means that Ganon can return, and the Triforce wasn't used (wished upon) so it is still there for use (oracles intro maybe) or for a possible re-capture and re-seperation.

[coinilius]

The implication in the end of AoL always seemed to me that the Triforce was used not only to revive the Sleeping Princess but alsio to rid the land of the evil influence that was still lingering on - one of the reasons why I like AoL as the 'final' story in the LoZ series is that it has an almost (Arthurian) 'Holy Grail' like quest for restoration attached to it, and a storyline that dates back to the very beginning of the Legend itself with the Sleeping Princess (despite, y'know, the fact that it doesn't really work without a lot of fan fic to have a timeline that sees the Sleeping Princess at the start and AoL at the end).

Anyway, the symbolism works well for me in AoL, despite the somewhat muddled plot it has - there's the implication that the fate of the land, the Triforce and the Sleeping Princess are all interwined, with all three being 'sick' in some way; the Triforce split, the Princess cursed and the land being threatened by darkness. When Link unites the Triforce he heals the land and the Princess, restoring the nautual balance of the Kingdom.

[mohammedali]

The implication in the end of AoL always seemed to me that the Triforce was used not only to revive the Sleeping Princess but alsio to rid the land of the evil influence that was still lingering on - one of the reasons why I like AoL as the 'final' story in the LoZ series is that it has an almost (Arthurian) 'Holy Grail' like quest for restoration attached to it, and a storyline that dates back to the very beginning of the Legend itself with the Sleeping Princess (despite, y'know, the fact that it doesn't really work without a lot of fan fic to have a timeline that sees the Sleeping Princess at the start and AoL at the end).
 
Anyway, the symbolism works well for me in AoL, despite the somewhat muddled plot it has - there's the implication that the fate of the land, the Triforce and the Sleeping Princess are all interwined, with all three being 'sick' in some way; the Triforce split, the Princess cursed and the land being threatened by darkness. When Link unites the Triforce he heals the land and the Princess, restoring the nautual balance of the Kingdom.

Just so everyone remembers, a final ending is a stupid idea and an unlikely one, as there are always going to be more Zelda games being planned (and delayed), until the day of judgement. Hence, to think Nintendo have already released the last game in the series is rather naive. I mean, wouldn't it be lame if you knew that there was no chance of another Zelda game coming after a specific game? it would mean ALL new releases would have to be prequals and would have no effect on the end result.

Mohammed Ali

[MK.]

Well In my idea, ALttP is the end of a timeline with regards to the Triforce and Master Sword, and I think it is a great ending!
 
AoL's ending isnt as good, as Ganon's followers are still searching for a way to Revive Ganon, and means that Ganon can return, and the Triforce wasn't used (wished upon) so it is still there for use (oracles intro maybe) or for a possible re-capture and re-seperation.

Ok, I think the following is a good way to look at it.

Let there be two Zelda Universes. One of them consists of all Zelda games which were on the NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, Revolution (EGM says they'll be a Zelda at launch), and Link's Awakening for Gameboy (since it was made by Nintendo).

The other universe is all gameboy games made by non-nintendo people.

So we have the Nintendo Zelda Universe and the Capcon Zelda Universe. Both of these seem to fit as one does not really correlate to the other.

The only "remote" tie is LTTP and FS which was re-released on GBA, but even that was re-released and updated to try to give FS some validity.

And, if you're like me and buy into the split timeline (which does exist BTW ) then within the Nintendo Zelda Universe you had 2 smaller universes.

So, we've really have THREE unique timelines/universes/whatevers in which Zelda games can fall into

-MK

[Fyxe]

Well damn, MOST Zelda games don't 'correlate' with each other, otherwise there'd be no timeline debates at all.

I still think this is a cheap way of cutting out the games that happen to make things confusing. We might as well cut out the original game for not explaining how Ganon comes back from the dead.

Oh, and the split timeline doesn't exist (points finger at Wind Waker repeatedly). Rrr.

I didn't think ALttP was updated JUST to give FS some validity. O.o'' I thought it was just a nice little bonus to give a little backstory to the Four Sword, what with Four Swords being the second game on the cartridge and all.

Also, your plan for splitting the series ignores the fact that FSA was made by Nintendo and released on the Gamecube.

[Chaltab]

I am so glad the biggest problem with my timeline is the question of how long Ganon has been sealed in the Sacred Realm by the time of ALttP.

Watching you all argue about this is sort of amusing, but I'm glad I'm not apart of it.

[MK.]

Oh, and the split timeline doesn't exist (points finger at Wind Waker repeatedly).  Rrr.

I use WW to prove the existance of split timeline, how do you use WW to disprove it? Maybe I missed something in the game you picked up on...

[coinilius]

mohammedali: So far, most of the games HAVE seemingly been prequels - except maybe for the Minish Cap/Four Swords ones which seemingly could be anywhere. Something I particularly liked about the timeline before the Oracles came along was that it seemingly kept slipping backwards in time, revealing more of the story the further back it went until we got to the beginning (OoT).

Also note that I had 'final' in quotation marks, meaning that I wasn't trying to say that it was definately the final game ever, just that I like to see it as the final game in the timeline SO FAR.

And aLttP was rereleased and updated because Nintendo have a tendancy to release and update a lot of old NES games on the GBA - just look at how they've canabilised Mario All-Stars for all it's component games. If you ask me, FS was probably added to aLttP to make it seem a little more appealing to people who already owned the game - a neat little bonus for people to have some fun with.

[Fyxe]

Watching you all argue about this is sort of amusing, but I'm glad I'm not apart of it.

Man, I wish I was too.

I use WW to prove  the existance of split timeline, how do you use WW to disprove it?  Maybe I missed something in the game you picked up on...

Well, see, Wind Waker states both the adult-based events of OoT occur, AND heavily implies that Majora's Mask also occurs, which generally wrecks most split timeline theories altogether.

[mohammedali]

Well, see, Wind Waker states both the adult-based events of OoT occur, AND heavily implies that Majora's Mask also occurs, which generally wrecks most split timeline theories altogether.

What are 'both the adult-based events of OoT'? and the game doesn't 'heavily imply' MM occurs in WWU. The only thing close to a reference is the Legend of the Fairy, and as has already been explained, isn't solid enough reason to disprove the split timlines.

If anything, a split is most likely as WW is after OoT without any games involving the Triforce in it in between, and aLttP is after OoT without any games involving Ganon outside the darkworld inbetween. Hence they have to be in seperate timelines. This, along with the statement by Anouma strongly suggests a split.

Mohammed Ali

[Crazy Penguin]

What are 'both the adult-based events of OoT'? and the game doesn't 'heavily imply' MM occurs in WWU. The only thing close to a reference is the Legend of the Fairy, and as has already been explained, isn't solid enough reason to disprove the split timlines.

It's a direct reference to Majora's Mask, just as the intro is a direct reference to Ocarina of Time. You could argue that Termina connects both timelines, but that would be fan fiction.

The second inherent flaw in the split timeline theory is that both A Link to the Past and The Wind Waker rely on events that took place during the adult Link section of Ocarina of Time. You could argue that the stuff with the Sages sealing Ganon away happens again, off screen, in the child "timeline" that Link returns to at the end of the game, but once again that would be absolute fan fiction (one that thematically destroys Ocarina of Time).

The entire "split timeline theory" is a poorly thought out knee jerk reaction from fans in response to The Wind Waker closely following off from the plots of the N64 games but not setting the stage for A Link to the Past like the N64 games had done without The Wind Waker's presence.

The Wind Waker left a lot of loose threads, in the context of the series as a whole where we know that it is infact one of the earlier games in the series - Hyrule, the Triforce and a petrified Ganon with the Master Sword imbedded in his head are all lost underneath the sea. I notice that none of this seems to matter as far as your timeline theory goes though, you have absolutely no problem with Hyrule (new land or not), the Triforce and Ganon all returning "off screen" sometime after The Wind Waker, but the seal of the Sages being renewed between games (or in an upcoming game) is too much?

The Wind Waker didn't just leave loose ends for Link to the Past, it left them for the entire series.

Hopefully the upcoming game will help clear some of this up.

[martinDTanderson]

It's a direct reference to Majora's Mask, just as the intro is a direct reference to Ocarina of Time. You could argue that Termina connects both timelines, but that would be fan fiction.

Well Link was able to leave Termina after the events of Majora's Mask, so its highly possible that Tingle traveled to Hyrule aswell. (A Balloon floating him up the big drop to Termina Link fell down).

I still think this is a cheap way of cutting out the games that happen to make things confusing. We might as well cut out the original game for not explaining how Ganon comes back from the dead.

Well the original game didn't actually state Ganon was dead before HF only that he appeared in Hyrule and stole the Triforce of Power. And at the end of Wind Waker he isnt dead, just encased in stone.

[Crazy Penguin]

Well Link was able to leave Termina after the events of Majora's Mask, so its highly possible that Tingle traveled to Hyrule aswell. (A Balloon floating him up the big drop to Termina Link fell down).

No argument there. It's the notion of Tingle "jumping" into a different timeline than the one Skull Kid, Link and the mask salesman came from is absurd.

Well the original game didn't actually state Ganon was dead before HF only that he appeared in Hyrule and stole the Triforce of Power.  And at the end of Wind Waker he isnt dead, just encased in stone.

LttP is a prequel to the NES games (as it says on the box), and Ganon was killed at the end of that. It was never explained how he was brought back to life inbetween the games (although Adventure of Link's back story did tell us that it is possible to revive him, as did the Oracle games later).

To this day it remains a mystery as to how Ganon was revived, but nobody ever came to the conclusion that the games belong in different continuities.

[mohammedali]

It's a direct reference to Majora's Mask, just as the intro is a direct reference to Ocarina of Time. You could argue that Termina connects both timelines, but that would be fan fiction.

As is saying that the time mechanism in Termina is intertwined with that of Hyrule. If you call the explination for why they could be independant fanfic, then you have to accept the explination for why they could be dependant as fanfic as well.

The second inherent flaw in the split timeline theory is that both A Link to the Past and The Wind Waker rely on events that took place during the adult Link section of Ocarina of Time. You could argue that the stuff with the Sages sealing Ganon away happens again, off screen, in the child "timeline" that Link returns to at the end of the game, but once again that would be absolute fan fiction (one that thematically destroys Ocarina of Time).

aLttP doesn't require OoT to be the IW itself, and I think Nintendo recognised this and hence created WW as a true sequel to OoT and left aLttP as a subtle sequel. Also, this isn't fanfic as it is simply reconsiling all the events we KNOW happened in the ONLY way they can work. There is no extra information used at all, only logical placement which HAS to be true with the given information.

The entire "split timeline theory" is a poorly thought out knee jerk reaction from fans in response to The Wind Waker closely following off from the plots of the N64 games but not setting the stage for A Link to the Past like the N64 games had done without The Wind Waker's presence.

Not at all. Split timelines were thought up even before WW was released, so what you're saying is completely untrue. Just because a theory works well at explaining the timeline, doesn't mean its a 'knee jerk reaction'. The fact that it was also suggesting by the developers makes it the most plausable theory there is.

The Wind Waker left a lot of loose threads, in the context of the series as a whole where we know that it is infact one of the earlier games in the series - Hyrule, the Triforce and a petrified Ganon with the Master Sword imbedded in his head are all lost underneath the sea. I notice that none of this seems to matter as far as your timeline theory goes though, you have absolutely no problem with Hyrule (new land or not), the Triforce and Ganon all returning "off screen" sometime after The Wind Waker, but the seal of the Sages being renewed between games (or in an upcoming game) is too much?

All good and well if it says the seal was renewed, but it doesn't. It says that Ganon was sealed during the IW and that the seal has remained intact until the events of aLttP. These are facts. If you want to write some fanfic about the seal being broken, Ganon escaping and attacking several times, being 'resealed', and then everyone thinking he never left, then fine. Just remember that is serious fanwanking to get a timeline to work.

The Wind Waker didn't just leave loose ends for Link to the Past, it left them for the entire series.

Hopefully the upcoming game will help clear some of this up.

It didn't leave any loose ends if you try to get your timeline to work with the facts rather than the facts to work with your timeline. In anycase, I hope the new Zelda DOES clear it all up. That would be one issue I would like resolving - regardless of who it proves wrong.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

ALttP is a 'subtle' sequel? I'd like to see how you explain why they changed all the references to 'wise men' to 'Sages' in the re-release. If that isn't an obvious connection to OoT I don't know what is.

And I'd like to see this quote by Anouma that suggests a split-timeline.

[mohammedali]

ALttP is a 'subtle' sequel?  I'd like to see how you explain why they changed all the references to 'wise men' to 'Sages' in the re-release.  If that isn't an obvious connection to OoT I don't know what is.

Those who have read my IW explination will know that I see OoT as being part of the aLttP Bs, but not the IW itself. i.e. it shows things in the Bs like Ganon getting the Triforce, but the IW was not shown. The sealing in OoT is therefore referred in WW and is an extension of Adult Links ending, whilst the sealing (IW) in aLttP BS takes place where OoT leaves off (i.e Child Link ending). For a more detailed explination, see the second page of 'Timeline Laws'.

And I'd like to see this quote by Anouma that suggests a split-timeline.

The quote is below. Enjoy

Where does The Wind Waker fit into the overall timeline of the Legend of Zelda?
Mr. Aonuma: If you think back to the end of The Ocarina of Time, there were two endings to that game in different time periods. First Link defeated Ganon as an adult, and then he actually went back to being a child. You could say that The Wind Waker takes place 100 years after the ending in which Link was an adult.

Taken from the Nintendo website itself. (http://www.nintendo....m-Game-0000-823)

Mohammed Ali

[Crazy Penguin]

As is saying that the time mechanism in Termina is intertwined with that of Hyrule. If you call the explination for why they could be independant fanfic, then you have to accept the explination for why they could be dependant as fanfic as well.

That kind of arguing is ludicrously flawed, you're better than that. The burden of proof lies with the theorist, not the inpartial observers.

Otherwise I could say that a mouse named Mr Sugarliggles lives inside The Hero of Time's hat and demand proof from anyone who disagrees.

aLttP doesn't require OoT to be the IW itself, and I think Nintendo recognised this and hence created WW as a true sequel to OoT and left aLttP as a subtle sequel. Also, this isn't fanfic as it is simply reconsiling all the events we KNOW happened in the ONLY way they can work. There is no extra information used at all, only logical placement which HAS to be true with the given information.

So suggesting that the seal was renewed off screen sometime inbetween WW and LttP is fanfiction according to you.

But suggesting that there was another sealing off screen sometime after Link returned to his childhood at the end of Ocarina of Time isn't fanfiction?

At least be consistent with your debate.

[Fyxe]

Ganon was sealed by the seven sages once. I refuse to believe that the same thing happened twice within a fairly short space of time in history.

[mohammedali]

That kind of arguing is ludicrously flawed, you're better than that. The burden of proof lies with the theorist, not the inpartial observers.

Otherwise I could say that a mouse named Mr Sugarliggles lives inside The Hero of Time's hat and demand proof from anyone who disagrees.

It's completely different. Firstly, lets think about what we are saying. We are talking about people (Tingles) being able to travel between 2 timelines via Termina. Hence, we have to make the assumption that there is a timeline split (otherwise there is no basis of comparison).
Now, there are two plausable possibilities when it comes to how time and space works in Termina. One is what you are suggesting, and that Termina either exists as part of the Hyrule universe (which we know is not true), or is very closely linked, and cannot communicate with any other timeline, or at the very least, not the one that was created due to the timeline split. There is no proof for this of course, and no reason that it should be true other some people (such as yourself) think it makes sence.
The alternative is that Termina is a completely seperate timeline and can hence communicate with either 'universes' after they split. Hence there is no problem. This is the only other possibility to your suggestion, and is one that to me is intuitively obvious. Termina is completely seperate from Hyrule, so why shouldn't it be completely seperate. There is no proof for this either, but with no proof for the former, its by no means impoissible.

So suggesting that the seal was renewed off screen sometime inbetween WW and LttP is fanfiction according to you.

But suggesting that there was another sealing off screen sometime after Link returned to his childhood at the end of Ocarina of Time isn't fanfiction?

At least be consistent with your debate.

I am being consistant. Not everything is told ingame. Take the WW. OoT talks about how Ganon is sealed, WW BS also mentions this, then talks about how Ganon escaped (with no mention of Link being there). Does that mean the rest of WW BS that wasn't in OoT has to get its own game all of a sudden? Are we going to see how Ganon escaped etc in a new game? Obviously not.
Similarly, OoT talks about how Ganon obtains the Triforce, aLttP BS also mentions this, then talks about how Ganon was sealed in a massive war (with no mention of Link being there). Does that mean the rest of aLttP BS that wasn't in OoT has to get its own game all of a sudden? I'll let you think about that.
My explination uses only the canon info in the only sequence that there are no contradictions. There is no fanfic involved in my account of the IW as it takes it all from the game and the booklet, and fits it together the one way they can work consistantly. If you have another way that all information works harmogenously without any contradictions, then I would love to hear it.

Mohammed Ali

[mohammedali]

Ganon was sealed by the seven sages once.  I refuse to believe that the same thing happened twice within a fairly short space of time in history.

I actually agree. Single timeline theorists are essentially saying that the sages sealed Ganon in OoT, then again in the IW. This doesn't gel with me at all, especially when OoT is known to be linked to aLttP BS. I OTOH believe that Ganon was sealed in OoT in one timeline, and the IW in the other timeline. This way, he was only sealed once for each timeline, meaning it only happened once in the history of either timeline.

Mohammed Ali

[Crazy Penguin]

It's completely different. Firstly, lets think about what we are saying. We are talking about people (Tingles) being able to travel between 2 timelines via Termina. Hence, we have to make the assumption that there is a timeline split (otherwise there is no basis of comparison).  
Now, there are two plausable possibilities when it comes to how time and space works in Termina. One is what you are suggesting, and that Termina either exists as part of the Hyrule universe (which we know is not true), or is very closely linked, and cannot communicate with any other timeline, or at the very least, not the one that was created due to the timeline split. There is no proof for this of course, and no reason that it should be true other some people (such as yourself) think it makes sence.
The alternative is that Termina is a completely seperate timeline and can hence communicate with either 'universes' after they split. Hence there is no problem. This is the only other possibility to your suggestion, and is one that to me is intuitively obvious. Termina is completely seperate from Hyrule, so why shouldn't it be completely seperate. There is no proof for this either, but with no proof for the former, its by no means impoissible.

Here you're using one theory (of two separate timelines being created at the end of Ocarina of Time) to validate another theory (that Tingle met with Link from timeline A and then ran off to timeline B).

I am being consistant. Not everything is told ingame. Take the WW. OoT talks about how Ganon is sealed, WW BS also mentions this, then talks about how Ganon escaped (with no mention of Link being there). Does that mean the rest of WW BS that wasn't in OoT has to get its own game all of a sudden? Are we going to see how Ganon escaped etc in a new game? Obviously not.  
Similarly, OoT talks about how Ganon obtains the Triforce, aLttP BS also mentions this, then talks about how Ganon was sealed in a massive war (with no mention of Link being there). Does that mean the rest of aLttP BS that wasn't in OoT has to get its own game all of a sudden? I'll let you think about that.
My explination uses only the canon info in the only sequence that there are no contradictions. There is no fanfic involved in my account of the IW as it takes it all from the game and the booklet, and fits it together the one way they can work consistantly. If you have another way that all information works harmogenously without any contradictions, then I would love to hear it.

Mohammed Ali

You're not addressing the question - how is suggesting that the seal was renewed off screen inbetween TWW and LttP any worse than suggesting that the sealing took place off screen inbetween OoT and LttP?