151 replies to this topic

[Vazor]

Honestly, from the fact that the Japanese manual clearly states that no hero was found to weild the MS, I'm starting to believe that the IW didn't actually happen in the game, but a few centuries before LTTP instead...but, for now I'm sticking with the FSA=IW theory...

[Hero of Slime]

Technically that doesn't mean they didn't exist.

I was telling Hero of Winds that the Knights are never seen, not that they didn't exist. I knew they exist. I think the LttP back story was true. The knights fought Ganon right before he was sealed.

for now I'm sticking with the FSA=IW theory...

How does this this work? In FSA ganon is sealed in Four Sword not in Sacred Realm.

[Fyxe]

You guys seriously think that the events of OoT, with all their massive similarities to the Imprisoning War, are not the Imprisoning War? Even with quotes to back it up?

So, what, it's all just a massive coincidence? The exact same events happen almost exactly the same some years before ALttP? Seven more Sages, another identical seal? The Sacred Realm being accidently discovered *twice*? Ganon first placing his hands on the Triforce *twice*?

Or is it a split timeline, in which case how the muffin are the Sages awakened? How can Link be remembered for saving Hyrule in the past if he takes no physical part in it (Majora's Mask)? How can Tingle travel from one split timeline to another (Wind Waker)?

By the way, the Japanese manual never explicitly states that no hero was ever found to wield the Master Sword.

Also, please let me point out this quote from the Japanese manual...

The sealing became a distant legend.

Legend. Not detailed and accurate memory. Legend.

This as well...

The people heralded him as a hero; the King proclaimed him to be the second coming of the seven sages, appointed him priest, and invited him to the castle.

By some of your reckoning, it's the third coming. O.o''

Oh, and by the way, surely there are more innaccuracies in FSA being the IW than OoT being the IW.

[Vazor]

How does this this work? In FSA ganon is sealed in Four Sword not in Sacred Realm.

Ask Zythe about that. He's better at explaining it than me.

[martinDTanderson]

The soldiers in OoT are Hylian Knights, and you do get to hear the final words of one of the soldiers in the alley of the market, who died defending the Castle from Ganondorf.

[Hero of Slime]

I don't think those guys are Knights. They seem to just be common soldiers.

[Fyxe]

They certainly don't seem to be knights. You'd expect the Knights of Hyrule to wield Hylian Shields and have swords instead of just spears. They were meant to be something special, something different from average soldiers.

That guy in the alley is weird though. Why would he be in the alley? If he was struck down in the alley, what was Ganondorf doing in the alley? If not, why wouldn't he seek help in the main part of the town instead of going into the alley?

His only purpose seems to be somewhat confusing dramatic effect, and a tip for a very very lost player.

[SOAP]

You wanna see the Knights of Hyrule? Play FSA.

[Zythe]

Ask Zythe about that.  He's better at explaining it than me.

Ah yes. And I will explain it in Tarzan talk.

Ganon mad! Link go sticky stick with sword! Ganon owie! Zelda go "oooh shiny" and Link sticky sticky him and Ganon owie IN the sword. Smart persons take sword and throwify it into big glowy glowy thing! Later, sword spit out nasty Ganon like when did Vaati! Ganon mad again! Ganon split sword in shiny palace! Monsters protect sword from nasty boy Link! Ganon make Aghanim! Link to the Past!

*ahem* Yes.

[Fyxe]

I have to admit, despite the Tarzan-speak, it is a juicy theory that lovingly explains the existence of the Palace of the Four Sword. However, that does not necessarily mean the events of FSA are the Imprisoning War; like I said, there are surely more inaccuracies in FSA being the IW than OoT.

Still, a juicy theory.

[mohammedali]

Or is it a split timeline, in which case how the muffin are the Sages awakened?  

Link told the King who to call as the sages.

How can Link be remembered for saving Hyrule in the past if he takes no physical part in it (Majora's Mask)?

Link is known for saving Hyrule in the world where WW exists. He then walked away from that land. Hence, the legends in aLttP don't remember Link saving the world, whilst WW does.

How can Tingle travel from one split timeline to another (Wind Waker)?

Because Tingle comes from another universe himself, so to travel to MMU could be possible via one method, whilst traveling to WWU could be possible via another method.

By the way, the Japanese manual never explicitly states that no hero was ever found to wield the Master Sword.

It's implied. Something along the lines of:

"The Sages searched for the Master Sword and a hero that could handle the sword. However, the situation was urgent, and Ganon's malice was enclosing on the royal palace. The Sages and Knights held a heroic battle with the evil one."

The 'however' strongly suggests that that course of action could not be taken due to the urgency of the situation.

Legend.  Not detailed and accurate memory.  Legend.

I still think the whole deal is easily possible without using the old 'its a legend' line.

Oh, and by the way, surely there are more innaccuracies in FSA being the IW than OoT being the IW.

I agree. FSA being the IW requires WAY too much fanfic. We are already told that OoT was based on aLttP BS, so why not work with that rather than invent random theories that aren't supported without mass fanfic as well as ignorance.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Link told the King who to call as the sages.

Fanfic. Why would the king listen to some kid? I don't think he even took Zelda's premonition's seriously, as he still met with Ganondorf. And even if he did, how does the king going around and pointing to people and saying 'you're a sage' awaken them? It takes more than that to awaken a sage, surely.

Link is known for saving Hyrule in the world where WW exists. He then walked away from that land. Hence, the legends in aLttP don't remember Link saving the world, whilst WW does.

Your timeline puts OoT, MM and ALttP on one timeline, however the manual for MM states that he was known as the Hero of Time, just like he is in WW, which according to your timeline, is seperate. So your logic is messed up; you've explained why he's not known to be a hero in ALttP, but you don't explain why he's known as a hero at the start of MM. You fall down the same trap of having to use the fact that ALttP's backstory is legend to explain how that was lost in time.

Because Tingle comes from another universe himself, so to travel to MMU could be possible via one method, whilst traveling to WWU could be possible via another method.

No offense, but this is total fanficy messiness. Termina is an alternate version of Hyrule, but nothing states that it's in a whole other universe. After all, symbols of the Triforce still make appearances in Termina. And even if it *was*, there's a clear pathway between Termina and the land of Hyrule, with Skull Kid, Tatl, Tael, the Mask Salesman and Link both travelling to and fro between the worlds with no implication of any adverse effects. Remember that the Skull Kid himself seems to be the same Skull Kid from OoT that you give the mask to (he recognises Link).

The idea that you can somehow go from Termina to a completely seperate timeline of Hyrule is just as annoying as the idea that the one-Link theorists used to come up with that time travels slower in Termina and thus when Link leaves Termina, many many years have passed in Hyrule. It's all fanfic and there's no hints at it.

[Showsni]

So, what, it's all just a massive coincidence? The exact same events happen almost exactly the same some years before ALttP?

As you can see, I put aLttP before OoT. No, it's not a coincidence. Ganon can only be killed outright with the silver arrows, according to LoZ and ALttP. Without them, the only other option is to seal him away. Perhaps they even had the events of the former sealing war in mind when they decided what to do with Ganon.

Seven more Sages, another identical seal?

Sages seem to come in sevens. Perhaps it's the least number needed for sealing the SR. And the Sages in OoT aren't anything like the sages in ALttP, who are Hylians, as evidenced by their descendants and the beginning of ALttP.

The Sacred Realm being accidently discovered *twice*?

The SR wasn't accidently discovered in OoT. It has a big temple marking the entrance, and a complicated locking system. Clearly the SR has been known about for centuries. Rauru is actually inside the SR. In ALttP, there are no real marks of the SR in Hyrule. This indicates to me that it hasn't been entered as often at this time. In fact, the manual states that Ganon's entrance was the first ever discovery of the SR -

The people, seeking the Golden Power, began searching for the Sacred Realm. Many reports began to surface; lying beneath the relics of the desert, inside the graves of the race of people in the high mountains, but no one ever found it...That is, until one day, completely by chance, the entrance to the Sacred Realm was opened by by a certain group of thieves.

Ganon first placing his hands on the Triforce *twice*?

Where does it ever say this is the first time Ganon has touched the triforce? What with the ancient demon evidence from FSA, do we even know it's the same Ganon?

Or is it a split timeline, in which case how the muffin are the Sages awakened? How can Link be remembered for saving Hyrule in the past if he takes no physical part in it (Majora's Mask)? How can Tingle travel from one split timeline to another (Wind Waker)?

I don't think it's a split timeline.

By the way, the Japanese manual never explicitly states that no hero was ever found to wield the Master Sword.

It says that the Sages began to search for a hero to wield the Master Sword, but as time was pressing they had to seal Ganon themselves instead, basically.

Legend. Not detailed and accurate memory. Legend.

A timeline that accepts all points of the story and has no conflicts is better than one which accepts most of the story and ignores the rest.

By some of your reckoning, it's the third coming. O.o''

Not for me - I place OoT after ALttP.

[Fyxe]

As you can see, I put aLttP before OoT. No, it's not a coincidence. Ganon can only be killed outright with the silver arrows, according to LoZ and ALttP. Without them, the only other option is to seal him away. Perhaps they even had the events of the former sealing war in mind when they decided what to do with Ganon.

ALttP before OoT? Are you kidding? Oh man.

Sages seem to come in sevens. Perhaps it's the least number needed for sealing the SR. And the Sages in OoT aren't anything like the sages in ALttP, who are Hylians, as evidenced by their descendants and the beginning of ALttP.

AHA. I can fix this easily. As shown in WW, being a 'decendant' of a sage doesn't mean you have to be the same species.

The SR wasn't accidently discovered in OoT. It has a big temple marking the entrance, and a complicated locking system. Clearly the SR has been known about for centuries. Rauru is actually inside the SR. In ALttP, there are no real marks of the SR in Hyrule. This indicates to me that it hasn't been entered as often at this time. In fact, the manual states that Ganon's entrance was the first ever discovery of the SR -

No. In the Japanese manual for ALttP, it states that the Sacred Realm was well known about, but people were searching for an entrance. And only a select few actually knew it was the Temple of Time. As the people in the marketplace say...

"Legends say that the Temple of Time is the entrance to the Sacred Realm..."

Only legends. They're not sure. It also never says that Ganondorf was the first ever person to enter the Sacred Realm. Just that he opened the entrance. He may very well of been the first person to open that particular entrance.

Where does it ever say this is the first time Ganon has touched the triforce? What with the ancient demon evidence from FSA, do we even know it's the same Ganon?

Oh man, more than one Ganon is just weird. Lets ignore FSA for a moment, it causes all sorts of problems and I haven't even finished it yet.

Ganondorf's behavior seems to be that it's the first time he's reached the Sacred Realm. He didn't realise the Triforce would split, and why would it if he got all of it last time? The suggestion seems to be that this is the first time he's touched the Triforce, and that is why it split. In ALttP he has the whole Triforce because he eventually recovered the other two pieces.
He also does not recognise Link as the hero, nor that the other two pieces would be given to him and Zelda. If he was the same Ganon from ALttP, you would of thought he'd spot that.

A timeline that accepts all points of the story and has no conflicts is better than one which accepts most of the story and ignores the rest.

I think it's worse to ignore the obvious similarities. You have to remember that Nintendo does retroactively change things when need be. They certainly never never intended OoT to be a sequel to ALttP. It was about where Ganondorf came from, and it was the first time we saw Ganondorf as a human. Why would this happen after he was killed in ALttP? Quotes from the creators themselves say that OoT is the IW, which people are very quick to ignore (gee, thanks [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] Miyamoto for making a mistake when listing the timeline, now nobody believes anything the creators say).

[MikePetersSucks]

Link told the King who to call as the sages.

Like Fyxe said, that wouldn't work. I'd of thought that Link would of told ZELDA after seeing HER, since she'll most likely believe him and she has to be awakened anyway. I'd assume she used the Triforce of Wisdom to awaken them all.

[Showsni]

ALttP before OoT? Are you kidding? Oh man.

Why does everyone say that? It's not that far fetched, surely?

AHA. I can fix this easily. As shown in WW, being a 'decendant' of a sage doesn't mean you have to be the same species.

But if you're saying the sages in the IW are the sages in OoT, they're different species.

No. You're reading the mistranslation. In the Japanese manual for ALttP, it states that the Sacred Realm was well known about, but people were searching for an entrance. And only a select few actually knew it was the Temple of Time. As the people in the marketplace say...

"Legends say that the Temple of Time is the entrance to the Sacred Realm..."

No, that was the Japanese translation I quoted. From zelda legends. It says the entrance to teh SR wasn't know at all - whereas in OoT, it clearly is, if only slightly.

Oh man, more than one Ganon is just weird. Lets ignore FSA for a moment, it causes all sorts of problems and I haven't even finished it yet.

Ganondorf's behavior seems to be that it's the first time he's reached the Sacred Realm. He didn't realise the Triforce would split, and why would it if he got all of it last time? The suggestion seems to be that this is the first time he's touched the Triforce, and that is why it split. In ALttP he has the whole Triforce because he eventually recovered the other two pieces.
He also does not recognise Link as the hero, nor that the other two pieces would be given to him and Zelda. If he was the same Ganon from ALttP, you would of thought he'd spot that.

We have more than one Link. What if there's more than one Ganon? After all, games now show four cases of his starting out (LoZ, FSA, OoT, ALttP BS) and two of his dying (LoZ, ALttP), as well as several sealings.

I think it's worse to ignore the obvious similarities. You have to remember that Nintendo does retroactively change things when need be. They certainly never never intended OoT to be a sequel to ALttP. It was about where Ganondorf came from, and it was the first time we saw Ganondorf as a human. Why would this happen after he was killed in ALttP? Quotes from the creators themselves say that OoT is the IW, which people are very quick to ignore (gee, thanks [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] Miyamoto for making a mistake when listing the timeline, now nobody believes anything the creators say).

The creators certainly intended for OoT to be ALttP's backstory. But, as you say, they retroactively change things. What with TWW, it's now impossible in a single timeline for OoT to be the IW, I feel. Putting them as seperate events lets TWW work, as well as removing a lot of the earlier inconsistencies.

[Fyxe]

Why does everyone say that? It's not that far fetched, surely?

Well, the whole Ganon and the Triforce thing makes it seem slightly odd.

But if you're saying the sages in the IW are the sages in OoT, they're different species.

Did it ever actually give the Sage's species in the backstory? I forget, actually.

No, that was the Japanese translation I quoted. From zelda legends. It says the entrance to teh SR wasn't know at all - whereas in OoT, it clearly is, if only slightly.

I corrected my post, but still, in OoT it was only known by a very select few, and even that was by belief in legend. As ALttP's backstory says, there were also legends of it being deep under the desert relics, or in the graves of the 'mountain people'.

We have more than one Link. What if there's more than one Ganon? After all, games now show four cases of his starting out (LoZ, FSA, OoT, ALttP BS) and two of his dying (LoZ, ALttP), as well as several sealings.

ALttP was blatantly intended to be the backstory for LoZ. There's so much evidence to support it. The whole story in the manual was telling the players of the previous games how Ganon came into being. So no, in LoZ, that was not his starting out.

The difference between Link and Ganon is that Link is never ressurected, although Ganon is resurrected (sort of) on one occasion, and his ressurection was foiled in AoL. Therefore there doesn't need to be more than one Ganon if he can be restored from death. If you take Kodai no Sekiban as canon, he was ressurected in that too.

I believe OoT was the IW, and I haven't played FSA all the way through yet, so from my point of view there is only one story of his beginning, and that is OoT. I will have to play FSA all the way through to judge whether it truely is a new start for Ganondorf.

The creators certainly intended for OoT to be ALttP's backstory. But, as you say, they retroactively change things. What with TWW, it's now impossible in a single timeline for OoT to be the IW, I feel. Putting them as seperate events lets TWW work, as well as removing a lot of the earlier inconsistencies.

Lets wait until the new game comes out, as it was said to apparently be set after WW. It may end up with the resealing of Ganon in the Sacred Realm, ready for ALttP.

I agree that WW messed things up, but I don't think they've gone so far as to take OoT, which was intended to be the IW, gone and said 'that's not the IW anymore, it happened a bit later (or in your case, sooner)'. That's a major reworking of the story and I just find it very hard to accept that two events, almost *identical*, happened not long after/before one another.

It seems too clear to me that OoT was meant to be the first time Ganon touched the Triforce, hence it's split.

Someone will come along with the theory of two Triforces now. ~.~

[mohammedali]

Fanfic.  Why would the king listen to some kid?  I don't think he even took Zelda's premonition's seriously, as he still met with Ganondorf.  And even if he did, how does the king going around and pointing to people and saying 'you're a sage' awaken them?  It takes more than that to awaken a sage, surely.

That's the only part of fanfic that this theory would need to make it work, and as for your follow-up remarks, I refer you to a post by my good friend MikePetersSucks...

I'd of thought that Link would of told ZELDA after seeing HER, since she'll most likely believe him and she has to be awakened anyway. I'd assume she used the Triforce of Wisdom to awaken them all.

So it can work quite well. This is fanfic, but this is the only fanfic in the explination. Hence it has a lot less fanfic than other explinations.

Your timeline puts OoT, MM and ALttP on one timeline, however the manual for MM states that he was known as the Hero of Time, just like he is in WW, which according to your timeline, is seperate.  So your logic is messed up; you've explained why he's not known to be a hero in ALttP, but you don't explain why he's known as a hero at the start of MM.  You fall down the same trap of having to use the fact that ALttP's backstory is legend to explain how that was lost in time.

Link waged battle going up and down time, until he walked away from the land that made him a hero. This is said about Link whilst he is still in the land of Hyrule (in the Lost Woods). I take this to suggest that the 'land' he walks away from is the alternative world (i.e. WWU), where he was revered a hero.

No offense, but this is total fanficy messiness.  Termina is an alternate version of Hyrule, but nothing states that it's in a whole other universe.  After all, symbols of the Triforce still make appearances in Termina.  And even if it *was*, there's a clear pathway between Termina and the land of Hyrule, with Skull Kid, Tatl, Tael, the Mask Salesman and Link both travelling to and fro between the worlds with no implication of any adverse effects.  Remember that the Skull Kid himself seems to be the same Skull Kid from OoT that you give the mask to (he recognises Link).

This isn't a 'fanficcy mess'. Termina is a different universe. This is a fact. There is no reason that this universe has to be bounded to one of the Hyrule timelines at all. In fact, if you take it to be a seperate universe (like its stated as being), then there is no reason what so ever to assume Hyrule are linked in terms of their timestructure. Hence, there is nothing which can confirm or deny the possibilty that one can go to the 2 different universes via Termina, which itself is a seperate universe.

The idea that you can somehow go from Termina to a completely seperate timeline of Hyrule is just as annoying as the idea that the one-Link theorists used to come up with that time travels slower in Termina and thus when Link leaves Termina, many many years have passed in Hyrule.  It's all fanfic and there's no hints at it.

It's not the same thing, and your narrow minded assumptions are dangerous. Your not using any canon reason for a theory not being valid, just saying ideas are 'annoying'. If that's your opinion, then fine, but until you have some valid reason to rubbish someones theory in such a patronising manor, try to keep those unneccesary comments to yourself. We all know there is PROOF in the CANON that there is more than one Link. However, we have no proof about if Tingle can go to a different universe to the one that OoT Link is from.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

That's the only part of fanfic that this theory would need to make it work, and as for your follow-up remarks, I refer you to a post by my good friend MikePetersSucks...

It's still fairly fanfic. For one thing, Ruto is still a child, I don't think she would even be able to be a Sage (Saria is different, of course). Also, if you're trying to make it consitent with the ALttP backstory, you've stumbled at the first hurdle because the king is not involved.

Link waged battle going up and down time, until he walked away from the land that made him a hero. This is said about Link whilst he is still in the land of Hyrule (in the Lost Woods). I take this to suggest that the 'land' he walks away from is the alternative world (i.e. WWU), where he was revered a hero.

It sounds like you're maybe reading way to much into the fairly simple meaning of 'land'. I still don't get how you're explaining how he is known as a hero at the start of Majora's Mask (ALttP timeline, where he isn't known in ALttP's backstory) and also known as a hero in the legends of the WW timeline.

This isn't a 'fanficcy mess'. Termina is a different universe. This is a fact. There is no reason that this universe has to be bounded to one of the Hyrule timelines at all. In fact, if you take it to be a seperate universe (like its stated as being), then there is no reason what so ever to assume Hyrule are linked in terms of their timestructure. Hence, there is nothing which can confirm or deny the possibilty that one can go to the 2 different universes via Termina, which itself is a seperate universe.

It never says it's a different universe. Never, ever. It calls it 'a kind of parallel world'. That doesn't mean it's a different universe. Not even a different reality. It's a different world, yes, but there's no talk about it being a whole other universe. So don't say it's fact. And why, why on Hyrule would Link somehow, somehow travel through the obvious and fairly stable connection between the worlds (Skull Kid seems to travel through it regularly) and end up in a completely different timeline? Why? Why should that happen?

It's not the same thing, and your narrow minded assumptions are dangerous. Your not using any canon reason for a theory not being valid, just saying ideas are 'annoying'. If that's your opinion, then fine, but until you have some valid reason to rubbish someones theory in such a patronising manor, try to keep those unneccesary comments to yourself. We all know there is PROOF in the CANON that there is more than one Link. However, we have no proof about if Tingle can go to a different universe to the one that OoT Link is from.

Narrow-minded and patronising? I'd say your assumptions are more dangerous than me looking at the canon and seeing no reason why Link or Tingle or whoever should somehow be able to jump to completely different timelines.

I told you not to take offense, all I said was that it was fanficcy. It's not like I was saying 'you're totally fanwanking the whole damn thing'. I personally find what I see to be fanficing stuff to make things fit annoying. I try and avoid it as much as possible.

I'm afraid I came up with a whole series of valid reasons, the fact that the link between worlds appears fairly stable is one of them. If Skull Kid or Tingle or whoever could travel to different timelines altogether then what's stopping there being thousands of Skull Kids all meeting up or something crazy like that? That's what I meant about it being messy.

Saying there's no proof that Tingle can't travel to different timelines is like saying there's no proof that Link is secretly an alien in disguise, and that Ganondorf's real name is 'Bob' but he doesn't tell anyone. There's no proof that he CAN. Thus, it's fanfic.

[mohammedali]

It's still fairly fanfic.  For one thing, Ruto is still a child, I don't think she would even be able to be a Sage (Saria is different, of course).  Also, if you're trying to make it consitent with the ALttP backstory, you've stumbled at the first hurdle because the king is not involved.

As I said, the only part that is fanfic is that the sages were awakened when Link was a child (possibly by Zelda after Link told her). If we use this ONE bit of fanfic as being true, then we can go back to the canon which says the King told these sages to seal the SR. This part is canon. Hence if you call one piece of fanfic as 'fairly fanficy' then, yes it is.

It sounds like you're maybe reading way to much into the fairly simple meaning of 'land'.  I still don't get how you're explaining how he is known as a hero at the start of Majora's Mask (ALttP timeline, where he isn't known in ALttP's backstory) and also known as a hero in the legends of the WW timeline.

Link is a hero in WWU. He leaves that land (which made him a hero). He goes to MMU. Simple.

It never says it's a different universe.  Never, ever.  It calls it 'a kind of parallel world'.  That doesn't mean it's a different universe.  Not even a different reality.  It's a different world, yes, but there's no talk about it being a whole other universe.  So don't say it's fact.  And why, why on Hyrule would Link somehow, somehow travel through the obvious and fairly stable connection between the worlds (Skull Kid seems to travel through it regularly) and end up in a completely different timeline?  Why?  Why should that happen?

What do you think a parallel world is? I mean, everyone here has accepted that Termina is essentially completely seperate to Hyrule with a 'portal' that links them. They aren't the same land or on the same 'Earth', and it doesn't make sence to think of it as another planet as it seems linked to Hyrule in some ways. Hence, it only makes sence to see this as a seperate universe that is 'inplace' of Hyrule. This implies it is a seperate universe. I would be quite interested to see the exact Jap translation is though.

As for the timeline issue. I believe Mario Jr drew a picture to explain it better. If you really can't understand it, I suggest you look up that post. I'll have a go at finding it, but I need to revise so don't count on me looking.

Narrow-minded and patronising?  I'd say your assumptions are more dangerous than me looking at the canon and seeing no reason why Link or Tingle or whoever should somehow be able to jump to completely different timelines.

Which is why I said what I said. Go and research some more on Zelda before slagging off theories because you don't like them.

I told you not to take offense, all I said was that it was fanficcy.  It's not like I was saying 'you're totally fanwanking the whole damn thing'.  I personally find what I see to be fanficing stuff to make things fit annoying.  I try and avoid it as much as possible.

So do I. That is why the theory has very little fanfic. What you fail to understand however, is that the whole timeline thing in Termina is a double edged sword. If you make the assumtion that Termina and Hyrule work with the same time structue then it's fanfiction as well. They are two worlds that exist parrallell to each other. They are not linked other than the portal. You can't know for sure about if travel between the other timeline is possible, but you have to accept one of them as being right so you HAVE to fanfic on that point.

I'm afraid I came up with a whole series of valid reasons, the fact that the link between worlds appears fairly stable is one of them.  If Skull Kid or Tingle or whoever could travel to different timelines altogether then what's stopping there being thousands of Skull Kids all meeting up or something crazy like that?  That's what I meant about it being messy.

As I said, its not valid. You don't know if people can travel to the other timeline of Hyrule as well.

Saying there's no proof that Tingle can't travel to different timelines is like saying there's no proof that Link is secretly an alien in disguise, and that Ganondorf's real name is 'Bob' but he doesn't tell anyone.  There's no proof that he CAN.  Thus, it's fanfic.

NO. There's good reason to believe he can for the following reason:
WW is a sequal to OoT that cannot have the Triforce changing hands inbetween
aLttP is a sequal to OoT that cannot have Ganon leaving the SR inbetween
This means there has to be a timeline split. This means Tingle must have been able to get to the other universe somehow as well, and there is NO PROOF that he can't. I'll tell you what. Let's hear how you explain how OoT, aLttP, MM, and WW all work together and then we can have some platform to compare what the notion of fanfiction is. I look forward to hearing to your responce.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Research more? I'm sorry, but I know my stuff. I don't 'slag off' theories necessarily because I don't like them, I kind of LIKE the idea of a split timeline in a way because it does solve the problems of WW. Doesn't mean I think it's the case. I DON'T like the idea that one can somehow use Termina to jump from timeline to timeline.

I think it's assuming less to think that changing timelines doesn't happen. After all, it is said to be a 'parallel' world. Parallel implies that they go side-by-side. I've already said, if Skull Kid is jumping back and forth, and Link travels back to Hyrule at the end with absolutely no implications of any adverse effects (switching from timeline to timeline), then why should it occur? The idea is only there to make a certain timeline theory work. Otherwise it would never be an issue.

Why CAN'T Ganon leave the Sacred Realm between OoT and ALttP? Why can't he? I'm not saying he does, but nowhere in the ALttP backstory does it say this is Ganon's first attempt at escaping the Sacred Realm. Remember, in a way, Agahnim is part of Ganon. He can somehow traverse the seal. Now, I will have to check the quotes in WW again, but somehow he *seems* to break the seal. Then Hyrule is flooded. It begins anew on the Great Sea, with Ganon somehow escaping the flood. We REALLY need a Wind Waker quote FAQ, by the way. I need to know if he actually breaks the seal or just finds a way 'around' it. The Ganon you see in Wind Waker may be just like Agahnim; while Ganon's true body still lies within the Sacred Realm.
Still, I really need some damn quotes. In that respect I suppose I do need to research, but you can't blame me for forgetting quotes.

To be quite honest, the best way to explain away the problems in your timeline theory is to just say that the Legend of the Fairy is not actually a connection to Majora's Mask. After all, Tingle is all over the game's timeline, and it talks about him living near a lake or something, even thought there are no real lakes in Termina. However, this does cause the problem of WHEN Tingle met Link, then, because Link was sent back in time at the end of OoT and thus left the timeline.

However, this hits on my main problem with the split timeline theory. If Link was sent back to the past, then does he just cease to exist? Does Link cease to exist every time Link goes back to the past? How many timelines are there? Why save one timeline if the remaining ones are going to be left to destruction? If Link does not cease to exist, then where did the Link that was sent to the past go in the OoT future? Termina? Then Majora's Mask would happen, and we're back to the whole Tingle problem.

My timeline goes something like this...

OoT past ending - MM - OoT future ending/Imprisoning War - Wind Waker backstory (Ganon finds a way around the seal) - Hyrule flooded - WW ending - Zelda '05(?) - Ganon forced back to the seal (depends on whether he actually broke the seal in WW or was only there in spirit) - ALttP - Kodai no Sekiban - LA - Oracle games - LoZ - AoL

Aha, yes, a quote FAQ!! I've found what I'm looking for... Yes, I was right.

My reason for believing that Ganon can somehow find a way around the seal without actually leaving is because it appears he has done this more than once. In Wind Waker, he has left the seal put on him by the gods *before* Link draws the key to the seal, the Master Sword. After that, he regains the rest of his power. Therefore, he may NEVER of left his seal in the Sacred Realm. He is still quoted by the King of Red Lions to be the Emperor of the Dark Realm. In ALttP he unleashes his power beyond the seal, in the form of curses upon the land and his alter-ego, Agahnim.

After his defeat at the hands of the Hero of
Time, Ganondorf was sealed away...but not
for all time. He was revived, and he
returned to Hyrule in a red wrath.

The word 'revived' is interesting. It implies he didn't actually break the seal.

[mohammedali]

Research more?  I'm sorry, but I know my stuff.  I don't 'slag off' theories necessarily because I don't like them, I kind of LIKE the idea of a split timeline in a way because it does solve the problems of WW.  Doesn't mean I think it's the case.  I DON'T like the idea that one can somehow use Termina to jump from timeline to timeline.

I'm suggesting you use more canon reason when trying to disprove theories. So far, it seems more that you are using your opinions to discredit an idea rather than facts. If you do know your stuff then show us by using it.

I think it's assuming less to think that changing timelines doesn't happen.  After all, it is said to be a 'parallel' world.  Parallel implies that they go side-by-side.  I've already said, if Skull Kid is jumping back and forth, and Link travels back to Hyrule at the end with absolutely no implications of any adverse effects (switching from timeline to timeline), then why should it occur?  The idea is only there to make a certain timeline theory work.  Otherwise it would never be an issue.

As I said, find the pic my MJ to understand the theory better. The point isn't why should it occur. The point is that some people claim it is impossible for a duel-timeline to exist because of Tingle, but I say 'No. There is no proof that Termina cannot connect to the other timeline'. I'm not saying it definately does, but I AM saying it could and hence it doesn't disprove a timeline split. Understand?

Why CAN'T Ganon leave the Sacred Realm between OoT and ALttP?  Why can't he?  I'm not saying he does, but nowhere in the ALttP backstory does it say this is Ganon's first attempt at escaping the Sacred Realm.  Remember, in a way, Agahnim is part of Ganon.  He can somehow traverse the seal.  Now, I will have to check the quotes in WW again, but somehow he *seems* to break the seal.  Then Hyrule is flooded.  It begins anew on the Great Sea, with Ganon somehow escaping the flood.  We REALLY need a Wind Waker quote FAQ, by the way.  I need to know if he actually breaks the seal or just finds a way 'around' it.  The Ganon you see in Wind Waker may be just like Agahnim; while Ganon's true body still lies within the Sacred Realm.
Still, I really need some damn quotes.  In that respect I suppose I do need to research, but you can't blame me for forgetting quotes.

It is suggested that Ganon never left the SR after he was sealed. I haven't had a chance to look at quotes, but I believe there is one that says Ganon couldn't find his way back after he went into the SR, and that during this time he was sealed.

In any case, if he DID escape, doesn't that make the 7 sages seal redundant? why the hell is he trying to break the seal all of a sudden when he already knows a bypass? Why isn't he walking around Hyrule right now, like he was in WW? It doesn't make sence in the slightest to say the seal has been untouched, but he escapped numerous time inbetween. Explain your theory if you have one on how this would be possible first.

To be quite honest, the best way to explain away the problems in your timeline theory is to just say that the Legend of the Fairy is not actually a connection to Majora's Mask.  After all, Tingle is all over the game's timeline, and it talks about him living near a lake or something, even thought there are no real lakes in Termina.  However, this does cause the problem of WHEN Tingle met Link, then, because Link was sent back in time at the end of OoT and thus left the timeline.

You're right, it is another way, but I still stand by the fact that so is the other suggestion. My only point is that you can't disprove the split timeline based on the Legend of the Fairy.

However, this hits on my main problem with the split timeline theory.  If Link was sent back to the past, then does he just cease to exist?  Does Link cease to exist every time Link goes back to the past?  How many timelines are there?  Why save one timeline if the remaining ones are going to be left to destruction?  If Link does not cease to exist, then where did the Link that was sent to the past go in the OoT future?  Termina?  Then Majora's Mask would happen, and we're back to the whole Tingle problem.

The timetravel via the ToT is sepertate to that of the Ocarina. If not, why did Zelda even bother sending Link back when he could just use the ToT again to go back himself?
Hence, Link travel via the Ocarina creates 2 timelines. One where Ganon attacked and Link beat him and then walked away from. This land is WW Universe (WWU). The other is where Link comes back as a kid. Here Link goes to Termina. We call this MM Universe (MMU).

My timeline goes something like this...

OoT past ending - MM - OoT future ending/Imprisoning War - Wind Waker backstory (Ganon finds a way around the seal) - Hyrule flooded - WW ending - Zelda '05(?) - Ganon forced back to the seal (depends on whether he actually broke the seal in WW or was only there in spirit) - ALttP - Kodai no Sekiban - LA - Oracle games - LoZ - AoL

Ganon cannot break the seal as it remained intact throughout till aLttP. If Ganon can 'fina a way around the seal', why is he trapped in the SR still in aLttP?

Aha, yes, a quote FAQ!!  I've found what I'm looking for...  Yes, I was right.

My reason for believing that Ganon can somehow find a way around the seal without actually leaving is because it appears he has done this more than once.  In Wind Waker, he has left the seal put on him by the gods *before* Link draws the key to the seal, the Master Sword.  After that, he regains the rest of his power.  Therefore, he may NEVER of left his seal in the Sacred Realm.  He is still quoted by the King of Red Lions to be the Emperor of the Dark Realm.  In ALttP he unleashes his power beyond the seal, in the form of curses upon the land and his alter-ego, Agahnim.

This only proves I was right. We know Link opens the seal (as you said) in WW by lifting the MS. Hence, the seal would be broken by WW, but we are told it remains intact up until the events of aLttP. Hence, WW cannot come before aLttP.

The word 'revived' is interesting.  It implies he didn't actually break the seal.

But after Link takes the MS it is implied the seal is broken and hence WW would have to come after aLttP. Hence there has to be a split timeline, as we know aLttP cannot come before WW either.

EDIT: I was looking over that quote again

As it says 'Ganon was sealed away but not for all time', it implies the Seal was broken at least in part. When the seal was checked during aLttP time, the seal was it is stated that there was no change. These 2 accounts cannot work together. Especcialy with the whole MS thing adding to the seal breaking.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

It doesn't imply the seal was broken at all. The fact is, nobody in WW is sure of how Ganon escaped. It's never explained. However, and this is a point you missed, Ganon escaped the SEAL OF THE GODS and escaped the flood.

This only proves I was right. We know Link opens the seal (as you said) in WW by lifting the MS. Hence, the seal would be broken by WW, but we are told it remains intact up until the events of aLttP. Hence, WW cannot come before aLttP.

Only proves you're right? Don't jump to conclusions, this is A DIFFERENT SEAL. Read my post again. The seal Link breaks is the seal of the gods, not the Sages. It was the seal in which Hyrule was flooded and frozen, which should of imprisoned Ganon. But somehow, he found away around the seal and existed outside the seal BEFORE Link broke it. When Link broke it, he began to regain the rest of his power.

So Ganon can, IN PART, escape a seal created by the *gods* without actually breaking it. And we can see, via Agahnim, that he can, IN PART, escape the seal of the Sages before breaking it. Who's to say it was *ever* broken? Ganon remains the Emperor of the Dark Realm. His true form lies there.

The great evil that all thought had
been forever sealed away by the hero...

...once again crept forth from the depths of
the earth, eager to resume its dark designs.

There is never any talk of the seal being broken. Indeed, Ganon is described quite enigmatically, so maybe he was not all there.

His 'revival' could mean anything. Yes, it could mean he broke the seal, but it could also mean that the seal that was meant to hold him for all time, didn't. That doesn't necessarily mean it was broken, correct?

In any case, if he DID escape, doesn't that make the 7 sages seal redundant? why the hell is he trying to break the seal all of a sudden when he already knows a bypass? Why isn't he walking around Hyrule right now, like he was in WW? It doesn't make sence in the slightest to say the seal has been untouched, but he escapped numerous time inbetween. Explain your theory if you have one on how this would be possible first.

My theory on this is quite simple, and is backed up by the quotes; Ganon cannot be at full power unless the seal is broken. Of course he wants it broken, so his true form can attack Hyrule, instead of merely the weakened version of himself we see in Wind Waker. It could also be that with his defeat at the end of Wind Waker, there was no possible way Ganon could actually manifest himself beyond the seal again, except in the form of Agahnim.

I'm not saying he can hop around the seal anytime he wants. Clearly it's not easy. It takes time for him to influence the world outside and revive himself in some form. If it was easy Agahnim would of been about as soon as the seal was in place.

You're right, it is another way, but I still stand by the fact that so is the other suggestion. My only point is that you can't disprove the split timeline based on the Legend of the Fairy.

Well, like I said, you can't disprove that Ganondorf's real name is Bob. I'm not trying to 'disprove' anything, all I'm saying is that to make the split timeline work you have to make some rather... Forward assumptions about the connection between Hyrule and Termina. If they were backed up by the game I could go with you on that but the game seems to imply that the connection between Hyrule and Termina is fairly stable.

I would love to get the Japanese version of the Majora's Mask manual introduction and find out what it says about Termina on the page with the map.

[mohammedali]

It doesn't imply the seal was broken at all.  The fact is, nobody in WW is sure of how Ganon escaped.  It's never explained.  However, and this is a point you missed, Ganon escaped the SEAL OF THE GODS and escaped the flood.

Think about it. Why is there a 'Seal of the Gods'? Because Ganon was back in Hyrule. Why was Ganon back in Hyrule? Because Ganon broke the seal of the sages. If this were not true, and Ganon came back without the Seal of the Sages being touched (which would be altemately redundant), then why would he be trapped in the SR/DW in aLttP if that takes place afterwards.

Only proves you're right?  Don't jump to conclusions, this is A DIFFERENT SEAL.  Read my post again.  The seal Link breaks is the seal of the gods, not the Sages.  It was the seal in which Hyrule was flooded and frozen, which should of imprisoned Ganon.  But somehow, he found away around the seal and existed outside the seal BEFORE Link broke it.  When Link broke it, he began to regain the rest of his power.

So why would another seal be necessary if the last seal was still intact?

So Ganon can, IN PART, escape a seal created by the *gods* without actually breaking it.  And we can see, via Agahnim, that he can, IN PART, escape the seal of the Sages before breaking it.  Who's to say it was *ever* broken?  Ganon remains the Emperor of the Dark Realm.  His true form lies there.

Too many inconsistancies with this theory.
1) Why does Ganon need Agahnim if he can 'bypass' the seal if he wants to?
2) Surely bypassing the seal would have 'some' effect on how strong it is. Why is the seal not weakened even slightly?
And 'his true form lies there'? Are you just fanwanking or have you got a quote?

There is never any talk of the seal being broken.  Indeed, Ganon is described quite enigmatically, so maybe he was not all there.

3. It shows a picture of Ganon in his true form raging terror all over Hyrule. In WW it is clear that Ganon came back in his true form and seemingly broke the seal or at least bypassed it. In aLttP you are saying he can't bypass the seal at all, and that 'his true form lies' in the Dark World. These don't work together at all unless you severly fanwank your way out of it.

His 'revival' could mean anything.  Yes, it could mean he broke the seal, but it could also mean that the seal that was meant to hold him for all time, didn't.  That doesn't necessarily mean it was broken, correct?

Revival suggests Ganon was somehow 'restored'. You can take that to mean what you will, but to say he was 'sealed away, but not for all time', mean he was not sealed at some point. This directly implies the seal forced upon him was broken. If not, the entire seal would be redundant. It is clear that Ganon managed to come back in full form, and if you believe that the seal has any significance, it can only mean the seal was broken at least in part, if not in full.

My theory on this is quite simple, and is backed up by the quotes; Ganon cannot be at full power unless the seal is broken.  Of course he wants it broken, so his true form can attack Hyrule, instead of merely the weakened version of himself we see in Wind Waker.  It could also be that with his defeat at the end of Wind Waker, there was no possible way Ganon could actually manifest himself beyond the seal again, except in the form of Agahnim.

Ganons full form DID attack Hyrule in WW. We see this in the intro. In WW, Ganon is not at full form due to the Seal of the Gods. As you said, this is a different seal. It is clear though, that before the Seal fo the Gods, Ganon was able to escape in full form in WW BS. With this being the case, and aLttP showing it was not possible, there are only a few possibilities.
1) The seal was weakened which is not true as aLttP BS confirms.
2) There was a new seal created with 7 sages once again which is ALSO not true as aLttP BS stongly suggests if not confirms
3) There is a timeline split

I'm not saying he can hop around the seal anytime he wants.  Clearly it's not easy.  It takes time for him to influence the world outside and revive himself in some form.  If it was easy Agahnim would of been about as soon as the seal was in place.

Firstly, this is an altemately fanficcy idea of the seal being bypassable with a certain amount of effort or whatever, but I will entertain it nonetheless.
Why did he send Agahnim at all if he could come back in full form anyway? If Ganon knew he could come back in full effect like he did in WW, why bother sending someone else at all. Why not just go himself? In fact, why bother breaking a seal at all when you can eventually bypass it and still bring your strenght to the Light World? Then, if Ganon really want to break the seal, he can do so by killing the maiderns himself.

Well, like I said, you can't disprove that Ganondorf's real name is Bob.  I'm not trying to 'disprove' anything, all I'm saying is that to make the split timeline work you have to make some rather...  Forward assumptions about the connection between Hyrule and Termina.  If they were backed up by the game I could go with you on that but the game seems to imply that the connection between Hyrule and Termina is fairly stable.

You use this word stable, but if you play MM you see that it is anything but. Look at how Link enters Termina and tell me if that is 'stable'. This is nothing like trying to disprove Ganon is named Bob. A split timeline is a very obvious theory because it is suggested in OoT ending, it is implied by a quote from Aonuma-san and it is the only way all game events can be resolved without contradiction. This is why the Legend of the Fairy debate was used to try and disprove it, but as I pointed out, Termina being in another world means that it doesn't NECESSEARLY have to be in the same timeline. Simple. If you say it definatly is, then you are wrong, because we don't know.

I would love to get the Japanese version of the Majora's Mask manual introduction and find out what it says about Termina on the page with the map.

Maybe someone on the forums can help you with that. I am hoping that Zethar-II can provide a few translations for the other games for the Canon Guide in the future. Zethar, if you are out there... We need you...

Anyway, I'm going to post a lot less after this post. It's taking up too much revision time. It's OK for you, as you have finished exams, but I have my finals now, and Cambridge exams are anything but easy.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Alright, that's it, if you're going to accuse me of 'fanwanking' you can go bugger off. Yeah, and saying Tingle can somehow zip from timeline to timeline just to make your little theory work isn't fanwanking? It's blatantly assuming random crap just to make it work. At least my *ideas* (I stress I'm not claiming my theory as the gospel truth, unlike how some people do) are based off events and quotes from the games.

But I'm not going to actually respond to the rest of your post unless you get some internet etiquette.

Cambridge boy too eh? What-o, pip pip. Have some decorum, good sir. Better be careful, your exams are SPECIAL. Your degree is worth more than the common folk, eh whot? Means you know more about Zelda, so why bother arguing, why not just insult the other person?

Hurry up, finish your exams, and then apologise and actually listen to what I am saying instead of accusing me of fanwanking. Then I'll DISCUSS this with you properly. But I'm not putting up with insults.

[mohammedali]

Alright, that's it, if you're going to accuse me of 'fanwanking' you can go bugger off.  Yeah, and saying Tingle can somehow zip from timeline to timeline just to make your little theory work isn't fanwanking?  It's blatantly assuming random crap just to make it work.  At least my *ideas* (I stress I'm not claiming my theory as the gospel truth, unlike how some people do) are based off events and quotes from the games.

But I'm not going to actually respond to the rest of your post unless you get some internet etiquette.

Lets get a few things straight Fyxe.
1) If you don't like me saying you're fanwanking then 'bugger off' yourself (and to talk about being offensive <_< ). The term 'fanwanking' is used ALL the time here so it's not about my 'etiquette', its just what we say here all the time. It's not supposed to be taken offensively.
2) I never said I wasn't using any fanfic. My enitre point was that to assume the Legend of the Fairy makes a timeline split impossible requires assumptions to be made that aren't definately true. Hence it doesn't disprove anything. As I said, you have to use fanfic on that part in EVERY case so you can't hold that against my theory.
3) My ideas are also based off events and quotes in the game. I have dealt with all questions against my theories, but as soon as I question yours you reply with this. If you can't handle these questions, don't post a theory. Simple.

Cambridge boy too eh?  What-o, pip pip.  Have some decorum, good sir.  Better be careful, your exams are SPECIAL.  Your degree is worth more than the common folk, eh whot?  Means you know more about Zelda, so why bother arguing, why not just insult the other person?

As I said, to say you are fanwanking isn't an insult. Seems like you're just a little touchy so if it really upsets you, I'll try not to be so 'offencive' when replying to you. Having said that, maybe you could do the same in your posts to other people well.

"What-o, pip pip"? What are you on about? I don't understand that at all. Anyway, when did I say I was special? Either you're trying hard to make me look bad for mentioning my exams are hard, or you have a serious inferiority complex. It's not even like I said my exams are harder than yours or anything. Whatever it is, I don't care. I'm not going to be made to feel bad for saying something about my exams.

Hurry up, finish your exams, and then apologise and actually listen to what I am saying instead of accusing me of fanwanking.  Then I'll DISCUSS this with you properly.  But I'm not putting up with insults.

Sorry for hurting your feelings Fyxe, but maybe you need to stop taking offence so easily. "Mummy, the horrible man on the internet called me names... ". I mean get over yourself.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Riiiight.

Sorry, you sounded pretty insulting to me. I wouldn't exactly call the phrase 'fanwanking' positive, would you? And you're not doing much to redeem yourself, are you? Do you get off on confrontation or something? Inferiority complex now? My my, first I'm patronising, now I'm suffering from an inferiority complex. Sorry FREUD, but you *did* imply that Cambridge exams are extra hard or something. I don't particularly give a damn about how tough or easy my degree is (hell, it's not like I have a scale of reference), I'm pretty nonplussed about education as some kind of trophy anyway, I just try to mock any instance of 'snobbery' in the education system that I see. Maybe I was jumping the gun a bit, but you cheesed me off.

You seem to have a habit of being unable to argue things without implying that you're right, everything you say is backed up by the games, the creators of the games, nay, Zombie Jesus himself, but as soon as I come up with an alternate theory ('theory' being an important word, it's hardly my philosophy on existence, it is a GAME after all) you say I'm just 'fanwanking' it all, and go totally patronising, I mean, what was this?

Firstly, this is an altemately fanficcy idea of the seal being bypassable with a certain amount of effort or whatever, but I will entertain it nonetheless.

Seriously now, the Patroniso Meter is off the scale. You say yourself, you never said you were using fanfic, but you treat an alternate theory like it's a joke just because it appears somewhat fanfic to you?

As for me taking things too offensely, you really think 'bugger off' is an insult? Pot calling the kettle black in this instance I'm afraid, it's not like you're acting particularly 'calm' yourself.

What-o pip pip was just stereotypical posh English. C'mawn. Where would England be without it's horrible stereotypes?
Just don't take that seriously.

Now, I haven't been here long, so cut me some slack, but 'fanwanking' isn't a particularly friendly phrase to have thrown at you repeatedly. And it wasn't just the word, it was your manner. Treat this like a discussion, not a brawl. I've tried to listen to and see how your theory might work, you could at least do the same without making it seem like I'm talking utter crap.

'Get over yourself'... What are you, twelve? You're meant to be British man, we have a wide variety of interesting phrases here, don't use a lame tweeny American one.

'Talk to the hand!!'

Anyway, the idea that Ganon get work around the seal to a certain degree is about as fanfic as saying Link in OoT has an earing. It's not fanfic at all, because Agahnim is the perfect example.

I will explain this more after:

1- I get some sleep.
2- You actually apologise without being utterly patronising.

This isn't about 'hurt feelings' or something rediculous like that, this is simply about having an intelligent discussion without you or anyone else attacking the integrity or the intelligence of the person you're arguing against. You did a similar thing earlier in the topic and I picked you up on it, I hoped it wouldn't degenerate to that level again, that's all.

[mohammedali]

Riiiight.

Sorry, you sounded pretty insulting to me.  I wouldn't exactly call the phrase 'fanwanking' positive, would you?  And you're not doing much to redeem yourself, are you?  Do you get off on confrontation or something?  Inferiority complex now?  My my, first I'm patronising, now I'm suffering from an inferiority complex.  Sorry FREUD, but you *did* imply that Cambridge exams are extra hard or something.  I don't particularly give a damn about how tough or easy my degree is (hell, it's not like I have a scale of reference), I'm pretty nonplussed about education as some kind of trophy anyway, I just try to mock any instance of 'snobbery' in the education system that I see.  Maybe I was jumping the gun a bit, but you cheesed me off.

This is the last time I'm making a post about this. Listen carefully. Fanwanking is a common phrase used in these forums. Its not meant to be taken as a personal insult. Also, your attempt to 'mock' me failed miserably. If I had made a comment where I was showing 'snobbery' then it would have been different, but I didn't. To say Cambridge exams are anything but easy doesn't make a comparison to any other exams, so don't put words in my mouth.

You seem to have a habit of being unable to argue things without implying that you're right, everything you say is backed up by the games, the creators of the games, nay, Zombie Jesus himself, but as soon as I come up with an alternate theory ('theory' being an important word, it's hardly my philosophy on existence, it is a GAME after all) you say I'm just 'fanwanking' it all, and go totally patronising, I mean, what was this?

When suggesting a theory, most people DO imply they are right using games and quotes. Sorry if this is new to you. When I looked at your theory, there was a lot of fanwanking required to make it work, so I pointed that out. Again, fanwanking is a common word. "How DARE you say that Lord Fyxe was fanWANKING. I'll have none of it you hear? NONE!!!". Get over it already. Everyone else in the forum accepts it as normal vocab. It's not meant to be an insult.

Seriously now, the Patroniso Meter is off the scale.  You say yourself, you never said you were using fanfic, but you treat an alternate theory like it's a joke just because it appears somewhat fanfic to you?

I questioned your theory and said it requires too much fanfic. Instead of answering those questions, you waste everyones time by getting offended with something so trivial.

As for me taking things too offensely, you really think 'bugger off' is an insult?  Pot calling the kettle black in this instance I'm afraid, it's not like you're acting particularly 'calm' yourself.

If I don't seem calm it's because you are really annoying and it's pissing me off. You're making a mountain out of a molehill, and getting unnecessarily upset.

What-o pip pip was just stereotypical posh English.  C'mawn.  Where would England be without it's horrible stereotypes?
Just don't take that seriously.

Never heard that before, but whatever. I'm proud to be British.

Now, I haven't been here long, so cut me some slack, but 'fanwanking' isn't a particularly friendly phrase to have thrown at you repeatedly.  And it wasn't just the word, it was your manner.  Treat this like a discussion, not a brawl.  I've tried to listen to and see how your theory might work, you could at least do the same without making it seem like I'm talking utter crap.

I treated it like a discussion. Notice that I asked you a string of questions etc. In fact, I may just repost my last responce just to see what you actually took as soooo offensive.

'Get over yourself'...  What are you, twelve?  You're meant to be British man, we have a wide variety of interesting phrases here, don't use a lame tweeny American one.

'Talk to the hand!!'

That's probably the funniest thing you've said in a long time.

Anyway, the idea that Ganon get work around the seal to a certain degree is about as fanfic as saying Link in OoT has an earing.  It's not fanfic at all, because Agahnim is the perfect example.

Refer to my other questions to see the flaw in this logic.

I will explain this more after:

1- I get some sleep.
2- You actually apologise without being utterly patronising.

This isn't about 'hurt feelings' or something rediculous like that, this is simply about having an intelligent discussion without you or anyone else attacking the integrity or the intelligence of the person you're arguing against.  You did a similar thing earlier in the topic and I picked you up on it, I hoped it wouldn't degenerate to that level again, that's all.

No. It's about your pride being hurt because I said you were fanwanking. That's what it's really about. I haven't done anything wrong. If anything, I should expect an appology from you for doing everything you accused me off.

Mohammed Ali

[mohammedali]

This was the post before Fyxe got really upset. I will look at what was said for Fyxes' benefit.

Think about it. Why is there a 'Seal of the Gods'? Because Ganon was back in Hyrule. Why was Ganon back in Hyrule? Because Ganon broke the seal of the sages. If this were not true, and Ganon came back without the Seal of the Sages being touched (which would be altemately redundant), then why would he be trapped in the SR/DW in aLttP if that takes place afterwards.

Nothing insulting, just me following through the logic with you.

So why would another seal be necessary if the last seal was still intact?

Nothing offensive. Just a simple question.

Too many inconsistancies with this theory.
1) Why does Ganon need Agahnim if he can 'bypass' the seal if he wants to?
2) Surely bypassing the seal would have 'some' effect on how strong it is. Why is the seal not weakened even slightly?
And 'his true form lies there'? Are you just fanwanking or have you got a quote?
3. It shows a picture of Ganon in his true form raging terror all over Hyrule. In WW it is clear that Ganon came back in his true form and seemingly broke the seal or at least bypassed it. In aLttP you are saying he can't bypass the seal at all, and that 'his true form lies' in the Dark World. These don't work together at all unless you severly fanwank your way out of it.

A list of in consistancies with questions.
I asked if you had a quote or were fanwanking for point 2. If you don't think of fanwanking as offencive (which it isn't meant to be), then this is a simple question.
A decleration that to have all inconsistancies to work together requires severe fanwanking. This isn't saying you were fanwanking, just that it would require it. Again, fanwanking is NOT to be taken as a personal insult.

Revival suggests Ganon was somehow 'restored'. You can take that to mean what you will, but to say he was 'sealed away, but not for all time', mean he was not sealed at some point. This directly implies the seal forced upon him was broken. If not, the entire seal would be redundant. It is clear that Ganon managed to come back in full form, and if you believe that the seal has any significance, it can only mean the seal was broken at least in part, if not in full.

Again, just logic being followed. Nothing offensive in here at all.

Ganons full form DID attack Hyrule in WW. We see this in the intro. In WW, Ganon is not at full form due to the Seal of the Gods. As you said, this is a different seal. It is clear though, that before the Seal fo the Gods, Ganon was able to escape in full form in WW BS. With this being the case, and aLttP showing it was not possible, there are only a few possibilities.
1) The seal was weakened which is not true as aLttP BS confirms.
2) There was a new seal created with 7 sages once again which is ALSO not true as aLttP BS stongly suggests if not confirms
3) There is a timeline split

Again, logic followed by possibilities. Nothing offensive still.

Firstly, this is an altemately fanficcy idea of the seal being bypassable with a certain amount of effort or whatever, but I will entertain it nonetheless.  
Why did he send Agahnim at all if he could come back in full form anyway? If Ganon knew he could come back in full effect like he did in WW, why bother sending someone else at all. Why not just go himself? In fact, why bother breaking a seal at all when you can eventually bypass it and still bring your strenght to the Light World? Then, if Ganon really want to break the seal, he can do so by killing the maiderns himself.

Here I called the idea 'fanficcy'. A term you used yourself earlier. Yet, I still entertained the idea, and put forward questions. Nothing offensive about that either, unless saying your theory is 'fanficcy' is also a big no-no for the almighty Fyxe.

You use this word stable, but if you play MM you see that it is anything but. Look at how Link enters Termina and tell me if that is 'stable'. This is nothing like trying to disprove Ganon is named Bob. A split timeline is a very obvious theory because it is suggested in OoT ending, it is implied by a quote from Aonuma-san and it is the only way all game events can be resolved without contradiction. This is why the Legend of the Fairy debate was used to try and disprove it, but as I pointed out, Termina being in another world means that it doesn't NECESSEARLY have to be in the same timeline. Simple. If you say it definatly is, then you are wrong, because we don't know.

This is just me defending my theory against assertions that are not necesserally true. e.g. Termina and Hyrule have a 'stable' link, and hence the Legend of the Fairy proves a timeline wrong, or (my personal fav), disproving there is a split is like disproving Ganon is named Bob (and to talk of being partronising <_< )

Maybe someone on the forums can help you with that. I am hoping that Zethar-II can provide a few translations for the other games for the Canon Guide in the future. Zethar, if you are out there... We need you...

Plee of help from Zethar-II

Anyway, I'm going to post a lot less after this post. It's taking up too much revision time. It's OK for you, as you have finished exams, but I have my finals now, and Cambridge exams are anything but easy.

Me declaring I'm not going to post as much because of exams.

Mohammed Ali

Me signinng off as I always do. Hence, in conclusion the only thing you could have got even remotely offended by is the term 'fanwanking', which as I said, is not a personal insult. Hope this gives you some closure because I'm not going to go over this anymore.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Holy Satan in a bikini, you're still not backing down in the slightest? And you say this is about *my* pride? Yeesk.
At least I was *trying* to explain to you why you had cheesed me off and I wasn't throwing insults and snide comments involving snap diagnosis about your mental health and making the judgement that you might actually really give a monkeys what I think of you.

I say again, all I wanted was a proper discussion.

I say one thing, you hear another.

Honestly, if you can't see how mind numbingly patronising you were being, then it's not likely you're ever going to see any flaws in your own arguements.

I already said I'm new here so GIVE ME A BREAK. You can't expect me to look at the word 'fanwanking' and think 'oh, he's just making a constructive criticism', can you? Think about it.

As for my 'attempt to mock you' utterly failing, I do not particularly give a damn, hell, if you REALLY weren't implying that Cambridge exams were harder, then fine, I have no beef with you on that subject. However, if you *were* thinking that and my attempt to mock you just flew right over your head then it's not my problem that you're oblivious.

Listen, I already said this was just a theory. To be quite honest I AM NOT SURE IF IT WORKS OR NOT. I came up with it a very short while ago to appease the inconsitencies in ALttP's backstory. Trust me, the fact that my theory isn't perfect does not hurt my pride in the slightest. I know it isn't. But you were ignoring the most important aspects. To answer your questions, then, lets take a look at the facts...

Firstly, in Wind Waker, we see that Ganon can somehow manifest himself beyond the seal of the GODS (gods being important) before it is broken. The seal is still as intact as ever, so no he did not weaken it, but he can slowly regain his strength. However, it isn't until Link breaks the seal that he regains his remaining strength.

Secondly, in ALttP, Ganon could curse the land while remaining in the Sacred Realm, before the seal was broken in the slightest. He also had an alter-ego in the form of Agahnim. Agahnim pretends to halt the disasters plaguing Hyrule, gains the king's trust and proceeds with his plan to break the seal on the Sacred Realm, which, up until this point, has apparently remained intact.

So Ganon can somehow manifest himself beyond the seal of the gods themselves without it being broken. Ganon can also manifest himself, not in his real form as Ganon but as Agahnim beyond the seal of the Sages without breaking it.

Now, logically, if Ganon can manifest himself beyond the seal of the GODS as Ganondorf, albeit weakened, then it's not too much to suggest that he can manifest himself beyond the seal of the Sages in some form. Remember the art at the start of Wind Waker was just a depiction, so he didn't necessarily appear in his pig form, although he may have.

If Ganon's attack on Hyrule was simply him managing to influence the world beyond the seal in such a way that he can revive himself beyond the seal, that allows the seal to remain intact. But the question arises of why he doesn't do this in ALttP. Three possiblities...

1 - It's just too difficult. Too fanficcy so I don't like that one.
2 - His defeat at the end of Wind Waker meant he was no longer able to revive himself beyond the seal. Possible.
3 - He just wanted to break the seal for good so his full strength would rage, and so he used the guise of Agahnim to do it subtly and carefully. With the quotes stating that he is weakened beyond the seal of the gods (and thus weakened when influencing the world beyond the Sages), this seems like a likely option.

Now this theory isn't perfect. It relies on a bit of fanfic yes, but if you look at it from the perspective that the split-timeline theory doesn't exist, then it's no different from your theory that Tingle can travel from timeline to timeline. We're both just trying to come up with possiblities of how the theories will work.

I base mine on the existence of Agahnim and the existence of Ganon beyond the seal of the gods (and when you think about it, the seal of the gods themselves should of been much stronger than the seal of the Sages) with neither seal being broken. Therefore, why would he of needed to break the seal when he attacked Hyrule in WW's backstory? Why did the gods have to resort to sealing Hyrule itself, surely they could of just forced Ganon back into the seal of the Sages? My theory actually explains that by saying that the seal of the Sages was still intact but Ganon could STILL attack Hyrule. So the gods took drastic measures.

Ok, there, done. Trust me, this was not about pride, or hurt feelings, or anything like that.

I must ask though, did you really get that 'talk to the hand' joke or were you just laughing *at* me? Hard to tell since you're very aggressive towards me.

Excuse me, wait a sec, 'closure'? Are you SURE you're British?

Man, you really need to cut out the holier-than-thou attitude, seriously, not very appealing at all.