214 replies to this topic

[joeymartin64]

Really, I was thinking of Chrono Trigger, but yeah, the moon drop's pretty comparable, other than it not really being a Game Over. But then, neither was dying. Does the text "Game Over" even exist in MM's code? Eesh. At any rate, what difference does that make that no other Zeldas have done something? Isn't the stagnation of the series the big thing now?

[Showsni]

I was always surprised that many gamers found Majora's Mask to be the most difficult game in the series.

Gamers who didn't own a NES? Well, I guess you might never work out the Inverted Song of Time and always run out before finishing a temple.

So what is the ideal difficulty level? I'm currently getting a little frustrated by Zelda's Adventure. It's pretty fair; if you die, you go back to the start of the shrine or Vision Henge. The problem is no Save and Continue option and my console's habir of crashing. Other than that, it's quite good, I guess.

[Person]

I was always surprised that many gamers found Majora's Mask to be the most difficult game in the series.

Gamers who didn't own a NES? Well, I guess you might never work out the Inverted Song of Time and always run out before finishing a temple.

So what is the ideal difficulty level? I'm currently getting a little frustrated by Zelda's Adventure. It's pretty fair; if you die, you go back to the start of the shrine or Vision Henge. The problem is no Save and Continue option and my console's habir of crashing. Other than that, it's quite good, I guess.

Isn't that the game which takes like 45 seconds to load each screen?

[Showsni]

Nah, only *times it* 4-5.

[Ember]

Really, I was thinking of Chrono Trigger, but yeah, the moon drop's pretty comparable, other than it not really being a Game Over.

I think the MM cutscene was worse than a game over because it started ALL OVER...the loss of items and all

Edited by Ember, 09 July 2009 - 03:01 PM.

[joeymartin64]

Huh? You didn't lose any of your saved progress, did you? Just what you'd done that cycle, right? Haven't seen it in years, so I'm not quite sure. Either way, it hardly really matters; has anyone ever seen it as anything other than the result of throwing the cycle intentionally to appease their curiosity?

Edited by joeymartin64, 09 July 2009 - 04:15 PM.

[SteveT]

I've been playing through Minish Cap again recently. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I consider it to be one of the best Zelda games. A few things that really stand out.

1. The Overworld matters. It's not just a bunch of roads leading to dungeons or a big empty space. When you find new items, they all unlock bits and pieces of the world, not huge chunks like (random example) Twilight Princess. Every time I got a new item, I was excited about figuring out which new pieces of the world were now open to me. Exploring the overworld was so much fun to me that (in an unprecedented case), I accidentally fell into a dungeon while trying my best to avoid it.

2. New Items. Almost every dungeon item is something new, or at least a new twist on an old item. (How can you not love the Cane of Flipping Things Over?) Also, the items mattered outside the dungeon where you found them. And they need to stop making such a big deal over the staple items. Here Minish Cap shines again. Instead of spending an hour trying to find bombs, you walk into some guy's house and he says "here, have these" and you've got them. Likewise, staple items like the Bow and Boomerang aren't elevated to dungeon items; they're treated as the mundade utilities that they are.

3. Dual World mechanic. This is a staple of Zelda. Maybe it's tired at this point, but I'd love to keep seeing new twists on the concept. One of my biggest disappointments with Wind Waker was how you only visited one tiny segment of Creepy Underwater Hyrule. Shrinking Link kept the feeling of the dual world mechanic, gave the developers twice as much to work with in the same map, and gave them an excuse to show off some gorgeous artwork.

4. New Puzzles. Minish Cap, unlike Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, didn't have me on auto pilot the whole time (and it doesn't the second time around, either). I don't walk into a room and know exactly what I need to do. Part of that is the new items, but the other part is that they just spent more time making clever puzzles.


You'll notice that none of these things are new concepts. I don't think Zelda needs anything radically different (if it's not Zelda, call it something else). The formula works. They just need to stop treating it as a recipe.

Edited by SteveT, 09 July 2009 - 05:35 PM.

[Ember]

Huh? You didn't lose any of your saved progress, did you? Just what you'd done that cycle, right? Haven't seen it in years, so I'm not quite sure. Either way, it hardly really matters; has anyone ever seen it as anything other than the result of throwing the cycle intentionally to appease their curiosity?

When I did it, I lost all of my progress, but it might have been that it was near the beginning of the game. I don't remember if it was my first 3 days or not. . .

[joeymartin64]

I'm damn near positive you only lose that cycle's progress, but I'd have to either check or confirm that somewhere.

And SteveT, the beef with the dual world thing (mine, anyway, as I can't speak for anyone else) isn't gameplay-related. I'm just sick of so many games pulling the "OMG ANOTHER WORLD CONNECTED TO THIS ONE" thing. We've already got like five of those. Underwater Hyule, small Link, and hell, even the Twilight pall are fine and dandy, but these literal "other worlds" need to piss off. If they want to set a game outside Hyrule, why can't they just set it in a land outside Hyrule's borders?

Also, the "formula/recipe" thing is a great way to put it.

Edited by joeymartin64, 09 July 2009 - 06:16 PM.

[Fin]

I've been playing through Minish Cap again recently. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I consider it to be one of the best Zelda games.

Wait, what?

[GuardianNinja]

I've been playing through Minish Cap again recently. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I consider it to be one of the best Zelda games.

Wait, what?

what do you mean? ^ I understand what steve said.

I agree minish cap was the last good stick to the basics zelda game, now its all "We need innovation!"

Edited by GuardianNinja, 09 July 2009 - 09:27 PM.

[D~N]

I've been playing through Minish Cap again recently. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I consider it to be one of the best Zelda games. A few things that really stand out.

1. The Overworld matters. It's not just a bunch of roads leading to dungeons or a big empty space. When you find new items, they all unlock bits and pieces of the world, not huge chunks like (random example) Twilight Princess. Every time I got a new item, I was excited about figuring out which new pieces of the world were now open to me. Exploring the overworld was so much fun to me that (in an unprecedented case), I accidentally fell into a dungeon while trying my best to avoid it.

2. New Items. Almost every dungeon item is something new, or at least a new twist on an old item. (How can you not love the Cane of Flipping Things Over?) Also, the items mattered outside the dungeon where you found them. And they need to stop making such a big deal over the staple items. Here Minish Cap shines again. Instead of spending an hour trying to find bombs, you walk into some guy's house and he says "here, have these" and you've got them. Likewise, staple items like the Bow and Boomerang aren't elevated to dungeon items; they're treated as the mundade utilities that they are.

3. Dual World mechanic. This is a staple of Zelda. Maybe it's tired at this point, but I'd love to keep seeing new twists on the concept. One of my biggest disappointments with Wind Waker was how you only visited one tiny segment of Creepy Underwater Hyrule. Shrinking Link kept the feeling of the dual world mechanic, gave the developers twice as much to work with in the same map, and gave them an excuse to show off some gorgeous artwork.

4. New Puzzles. Minish Cap, unlike Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, didn't have me on auto pilot the whole time (and it doesn't the second time around, either). I don't walk into a room and know exactly what I need to do. Part of that is the new items, but the other part is that they just spent more time making clever puzzles.


You'll notice that none of these things are new concepts. I don't think Zelda needs anything radically different (if it's not Zelda, call it something else). The formula works. They just need to stop treating it as a recipe.

I usually agree with you SteveT, but this time I feel like I must object. A few things stick out with your post, things that I find to be contradictory and wrong. First let me preface this with the following: TMC is one of my favorite Zelda games, and for sure my favorite Capcom zelda.

So the first thing that sounds odd to me is your appreciation of the overworld. I think it's good in it's own right, and was certainly filled with interesting locations and wonderful art, but let me ask this: did it do anything new? Lon lon ranch, fields, mountain - even the field itself felt 'meh' at best to me. For one thing, the overworld felt tiny (ironic?) and very cluttered. Do you know what I mean? Not enough space to really feel like an overworld. It felt more like a glorified game hub, similar to but not quite like the castle of super mario 64. Except that wasn't cluttered with obstacles and such.

It sounds to me that these obstacles, the ones that opened up as you acquired new items, were the very thing you liked. Dispite my love for the game I have to say that these are the very thing that I disliked the most in the game. That's my opinion of course. I mean, there's nothing I hate more than when an openworld that is arranged in a grid doesn't let me exit the square via the right side, and i have to go up, right, and down to get to the same place I would have been. And when overworlds are cluttered, how can I use my awesome running boots/sprint ability? It makes it challenging, that's for sure. So, the cluttered overworld that is difficult to traverse dispite its small size, was not exactly my favorite thing.

You couldn't be more right about the items though. They were all totally cool and very unique, so the game has that going for it. You're also right about the puzzles; I'm working on my third playthrough and I'm still having trouble at spots. Not everywhere, but (since my second or third playthrough is typically when I go for 100%) I'm having trouble getting a few of the final hearts and kinstones and whatnot. So it's good in that department too.

But where you lose me is the parallel world thing. The miniature world was a missed opportunity I think. It has some cute puzzles, but it wasn't a thing that you could do on the fly and I think that's what hurt it. Wouldn't it be awesome if we could have switched on the fly? I mean, imagine the puzzles we -could- have gotten! Imagine a room; is it a dead-end? Well, we should have been able to switch on the fly, explore the room, squeeze through a microscopic crack in the wall, and proceed in the dungeon.

And while traveling through that crack, the miniature enemies we encounter should do much more damage. In the minish cap, did shrinking down really feel like shrinking to you? Damage was just about the same, enemies were just small bugs and such. The enemies and everything around you should have been more dangerous. Being small should feel like a huge deal, excuse the pun, but really it should. You should be scared of the now-gigantic stuff around you as you progress through the giant blades of grass, dodging the colossal droplets of rain that could kill Link on impact. I feel like being small should have made you scared, almost. Things never felt like they changed at all. The art was indeed awesome, but where was the actual threat of being small? It was never really there, and I think that was a missed opportunity. Being small was simply being big but smaller. Same damage, same enemies sometimes, and same gameplay. Same everything.

Of course, that didn't make the game a complete failure by any means. But I came in with certain expectations, and when I find that being small is the same thing as being big, well, the result could be nothing but dissapointment. If the minish cap gets a sequel, which it totally should, I would suggest the ability to transform on the fly, and also an increase in the threat-level and likewise the damage-level of all things while miniature. It just makes sense for things to be that way.

I'll remind everyone again that I love the minish cap, and that these gripes are just nitpicking.

before I close this post though I just want to point out that your last bit there, SteveT, is somewhat of an oximoron. How can you ask for change yet suggest not straying from the formula/recipe/whatever? Either you inovate or you dont, right? I wont refute your statment flat-out, I just want to know what you mean by that; elaborate, if you will.

Edited by D~N, 10 July 2009 - 12:52 AM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Barter! Link should be able to barter with shopkeepers! Or at least visit shops and each shop will vary their price randomly or some such nonsense.

[GuardianNinja]

I usually agree with you SteveT, but this time I feel like I must object. A few things stick out with your post, things that I find to be contradictory and wrong. First let me preface this with the following: TMC is one of my favorite Zelda games, and for sure my favorite Capcom zelda.

So the first thing that sounds odd to me is your appreciation of the overworld. I think it's good in it's own right, and was certainly filled with interesting locations and wonderful art, but let me ask this: did it do anything new? Lon lon ranch, fields, mountain - even the field itself felt 'meh' at best to me. For one thing, the overworld felt tiny (ironic?) and very cluttered. Do you know what I mean? Not enough space to really feel like an overworld. It felt more like a glorified game hub, similar to but not quite like the castle of super mario 64. Except that wasn't cluttered with obstacles and such.

It sounds to me that these obstacles, the ones that opened up as you acquired new items, were the very thing you liked. Dispite my love for the game I have to say that these are the very thing that I disliked the most in the game. That's my opinion of course. I mean, there's nothing I hate more than when an openworld that is arranged in a grid doesn't let me exit the square via the right side, and i have to go up, right, and down to get to the same place I would have been. And when overworlds are cluttered, how can I use my awesome running boots/sprint ability? It makes it challenging, that's for sure. So, the cluttered overworld that is difficult to traverse dispite its small size, was not exactly my favorite thing.

You couldn't be more right about the items though. They were all totally cool and very unique, so the game has that going for it. You're also right about the puzzles; I'm working on my third playthrough and I'm still having trouble at spots. Not everywhere, but (since my second or third playthrough is typically when I go for 100%) I'm having trouble getting a few of the final hearts and kinstones and whatnot. So it's good in that department too.

But where you lose me is the parallel world thing. The miniature world was a missed opportunity I think. It has some cute puzzles, but it wasn't a thing that you could do on the fly and I think that's what hurt it. Wouldn't it be awesome if we could have switched on the fly? I mean, imagine the puzzles we -could- have gotten! Imagine a room; is it a dead-end? Well, we should have been able to switch on the fly, explore the room, squeeze through a microscopic crack in the wall, and proceed in the dungeon.

And while traveling through that crack, the miniature enemies we encounter should do much more damage. In the minish cap, did shrinking down really feel like shrinking to you? Damage was just about the same, enemies were just small bugs and such. The enemies and everything around you should have been more dangerous. Being small should feel like a huge deal, excuse the pun, but really it should. You should be scared of the now-gigantic stuff around you as you progress through the giant blades of grass, dodging the colossal droplets of rain that could kill Link on impact. I feel like being small should have made you scared, almost. Things never felt like they changed at all. The art was indeed awesome, but where was the actual threat of being small? It was never really there, and I think that was a missed opportunity. Being small was simply being big but smaller. Same damage, same enemies sometimes, and same gameplay. Same everything.

Of course, that didn't make the game a complete failure by any means. But I came in with certain expectations, and when I find that being small is the same thing as being big, well, the result could be nothing but dissapointment. If the minish cap gets a sequel, which it totally should, I would suggest the ability to transform on the fly, and also an increase in the threat-level and likewise the damage-level of all things while miniature. It just makes sense for things to be that way.

I'll remind everyone again that I love the minish cap, and that these gripes are just nitpicking.

before I close this post though I just want to point out that your last bit there, SteveT, is somewhat of an oximoron. How can you ask for change yet suggest not straying from the formula/recipe/whatever? Either you inovate or you dont, right? I wont refute your statment flat-out, I just want to know what you mean by that; elaborate, if you will.

As I said, why need innovation? MC had a good thing by sticking to the basics. I for one liked the fact the overworld was small, seemed easier to transverse then all the 3d zeldas with big open empty space . about shrinking anywhere, maybe later in the game, it would give you much more power then the game was meant. /counter rant

[D~N]

Hmm I see hwat you're saying. I suppose TMC had some good things going for it by not innovating, but then again OoT looked at TP looked at OoT and "didn't inovate" in airquotes, and I suppose everyone wasn't happy with those results. (I was very happy, but I can't speak for everyone else...)

However, big empty overworlds are what I love about Zelda andalways have love ever since the original. Twilight Princess I think really nailed this aspect; there were times I would just hop on my horse and just run a lap or two around the overworld, enjoying the wonderful scenery and the awesome horseback battles. I know TMC isn't capable of such things, what with it's technical limitations and all. My point is this - sometimes empty space isn't bad. In fact I'd say it's my favorite thing about TP, and the reason I hate dislike ALttP so much.

Think back to the ofter-overlooked overworld of majora's mask. Do you recall how cluttered and "busy" it felt? It had tons of cool ideas like the crow, the living bombachus, etc., but traversing that overworld was quite frankly a chore. Imagine if you will, what the overworld could have been like if they had taken all the same cool ideas and secrets and stuff, and just spread it out. It would look nicer and play better and feel more open. Obviously the creators of MM had to focus on the town rather than the world and as such the overworld was condensed. But I think that if given more attention, it could have been one of the coolest overworlds ever. They had all sorts of crazy-cool ideas, they just didn't structure it right. So, to summarize my point; an overworld - no matter how many cool ideas and secrets and puzzles and hidden areas - is just a jumbled mess unless structured in such a way that is open and easy to navigate.

I tend to nit-pick when it comes to problems like these, but as I've said before, my favorite thing about TP was the overworld, and I think it's the most important aspect of any Zelda. As such I give it plenty of attention. So you'll have to excuse my second rant. just know that I did enjoy TMC greatly.

[Fin]

I've been playing through Minish Cap again recently. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I consider it to be one of the best Zelda games.

Wait, what?

what do you mean? ^ I understand what steve said.

I was expressing shock that Minish Cap isn't generally held to be one of the better games.

[Ransom]

Hmmmm.
I see what you're saying about the need for space in a Zelda game DN. And to get that liberating, exploratory Zelda mood, [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of space to run around in is critical. However, i have to disagree that a full overworld is a bad thing.
Having heaps of elements to interact with, explore and find on the overworld makes traversing it over and over again (as one does in most Zeldas) interesting every time. Though i loved the adventurous space of TP, i also found it boring that being in an area once or twice was the end of finding anything interesting in it. Yeah riding over the glorious plains of Hyrule was awesome to begin with, but after the third or fourth time, it grew dull quickly.

This is why I thought the overworld in MM was more enjoyable because of its "cluttered" aspects.
Treasure chests, secret caves and hidden characters we're everywhere, and despite it being such a small map, (they struggled for space in the game as it was) it was a very immersive overworld, continually bringing surprises and new fun tidbits.
WW seemed to find an almost perfect balance between the two, with its full and heavily interactable islands on top of a big empty ocean. This similar format could definitely be achieved on a new Zelda, considering the larger space and better technology they would have to work with.

And SteveT, the beef with the dual world thing (mine, anyway, as I can't speak for anyone else) isn't gameplay-related. I'm just sick of so many games pulling the "OMG ANOTHER WORLD CONNECTED TO THIS ONE" thing. We've already got like five of those. Underwater Hyule, small Link, and hell, even the Twilight pall are fine and dandy, but these literal "other worlds" need to piss off. If they want to set a game outside Hyrule, why can't they just set it in a land outside Hyrule's borders?

I see your point.

But parallel worlds are cool, and will remain cool. In fact i think the next game should encourage them, have as many parallel worlds as possible. in fact just use all the ones that have already been made and have a big Zelda inter-world adventure. There can even be a classic world-between-worlds where Link can choose his destination.
Actually a good format would be three or four parallel Hyrules that you traverse between, your actions in each world adversely or advantageously affecting all the others. (For example saving a girl from an abusive lover may break up a perfectly healthy relationship in a different dimension)
There could be a few other familiar side worlds that you can also get to, (the implement of travel being some ancient mcguffin) for the sake of single quests to obtain items and special weapons.
For example, to save your Hyrule, you will need to break a certain magic seal in all the other Hyrules, however for some reason you need to get the Stone Mask from Termina. A quick quest and dungeon later, you have explored the part of Termina revealed in the game (unless it has another item later) and you can return to the main three/four overworlds.
The obvious incarnations of Hyrule could of course be the Dark world, Light World, Great Sea etc.

Besides the game layout and direction i wouldn't change too much of Link's actual behavior and Characteristics. Being anti-talking link, i see no need to take that kind of step in a Zelda Game. Despite what some might say, Link has enough character without talking, it would just go overboard if he did. And like someone said earlier, i think it would severely lower player identification with the character. It would lose its Zeldaness too, like giving Mario an American accent.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

A large overworld with a lot of space would only matter in a game where you have Pegasus boots, otherwise, it would get tedious like Twilight Princess where the overworld was huge but the number of things you could interact with were few and far between. Granted, it was realistic in the sense that in the real world there would be few things to interact with. However, it would be boring to have such a huge world with barely anything inside it.

[GuardianNinja]

TP was annoying to me because of taking so long to get from a to b, getting the ability to warp was the highlight of the game for me. about every single zelda possibly all of them had the ability to warp but none needed it more than TP I think, cause it takes to long I dont even think I will play it ever again, it got boring quick to me. TMC and MM were awesome in the fact that since it was small, they were able to pack more into it, I love being able to walk out and find something to do, instead of endlessly wandering the the fields in OoT and TP, soo verry teddiousss... Zelda was all about packing much into little if you think back, but now there going through the roof, I liked the dungeon items of TP but not the fact that once your done with an area you wont ever come back. Believe it or not my favorite zelda game is MM..

[SteveT]

So the first thing that sounds odd to me is your appreciation of the overworld. I think it's good in it's own right, and was certainly filled with interesting locations and wonderful art, but let me ask this: did it do anything new? Lon lon ranch, fields, mountain - even the field itself felt 'meh' at best to me. For one thing, the overworld felt tiny (ironic?) and very cluttered. Do you know what I mean? Not enough space to really feel like an overworld. It felt more like a glorified game hub, similar to but not quite like the castle of super mario 64. Except that wasn't cluttered with obstacles and such.

you're right that the Minish Cap overworld isn't an overworld at all. It's a dungeon with doors to more dungeons. It's more Brinstar the Peach's Castle. Reading your later posts in this thread, we have a fundamental disagreement about what a good overworld should be. Walking around open space isn't exactly exploring if there's nothing to find. With overworlds like in Twilight Princess (and especially Wind Waker), I would have rather had a stage select screen rather than a big empty hub. Exploration, to me, means trying to find a way into every nook and cranny in the world.

TMC, LttP, and MM all had one thing in common: the Overworld was every bit as interesting, if not more so, than the dungeons it connected. That's probably the main reason I like them best.

But where you lose me is the parallel world thing. The miniature world was a missed opportunity I think. It has some cute puzzles, but it wasn't a thing that you could do on the fly and I think that's what hurt it. Wouldn't it be awesome if we could have switched on the fly? I mean, imagine the puzzles we -could- have gotten! Imagine a room; is it a dead-end? Well, we should have been able to switch on the fly, explore the room, squeeze through a microscopic crack in the wall, and proceed in the dungeon.

And while traveling through that crack, the miniature enemies we encounter should do much more damage. In the minish cap, did shrinking down really feel like shrinking to you? Damage was just about the same, enemies were just small bugs and such. The enemies and everything around you should have been more dangerous. Being small should feel like a huge deal, excuse the pun, but really it should. You should be scared of the now-gigantic stuff around you as you progress through the giant blades of grass, dodging the colossal droplets of rain that could kill Link on impact. I feel like being small should have made you scared, almost. Things never felt like they changed at all. The art was indeed awesome, but where was the actual threat of being small? It was never really there, and I think that was a missed opportunity. Being small was simply being big but smaller. Same damage, same enemies sometimes, and same gameplay. Same everything.

Of course, that didn't make the game a complete failure by any means. But I came in with certain expectations, and when I find that being small is the same thing as being big, well, the result could be nothing but dissapointment. If the minish cap gets a sequel, which it totally should, I would suggest the ability to transform on the fly, and also an increase in the threat-level and likewise the damage-level of all things while miniature. It just makes sense for things to be that way.

I agree that Link should have been more fragile in mini-mode, but transforming on the fly would make the very things you were just complaining about worse. So what if you take more damage, if you can just walk past the obstacle in big-form and shrink down when you get where you need to. Part of the design of Minish Cap was that you had to figure out new paths to various locations while you were small. Transforming at any time would close off all that design space, and transforming would be no different than opening a boring, normal-size door.

before I close this post though I just want to point out that your last bit there, SteveT, is somewhat of an oximoron. How can you ask for change yet suggest not straying from the formula/recipe/whatever? Either you inovate or you dont, right? I wont refute your statment flat-out, I just want to know what you mean by that; elaborate, if you will.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm all for small changes within the formula, and don't think that radical innovations, just for the sake of change, are necessary. I like the idea of new puzzles, new items, and new parallel worlds--new versions of established mechanics, rather than rehashes of what's come before. The Minish Cap examples were all what I considered innovative twists the formula, that made the game feel fresh without radical changes.

Using Minish Cap again, take the plot. Like always, there's the "Collect the Totally Arbitrary Collectible Objects (TACOs)that will help you beat the boss." You go on thinking there's 4 dungeons. Then, you get to the end of the third dungeon, and the TACO isn't there anymore! Suddenly, dungeons aren't strictly bound to TACOs. It's a small touch, but it was just enough of a change that it helped break the series out of its rut.

And SteveT, the beef with the dual world thing (mine, anyway, as I can't speak for anyone else) isn't gameplay-related. I'm just sick of so many games pulling the "OMG ANOTHER WORLD CONNECTED TO THIS ONE" thing. We've already got like five of those. Underwater Hyule, small Link, and hell, even the Twilight pall are fine and dandy, but these literal "other worlds" need to piss off. If they want to set a game outside Hyrule, why can't they just set it in a land outside Hyrule's borders?

Because then you can't have puzzles that take advantage of the overlapping worlds! Not that I'm opposed to taking a stroll outside of Hyrule.

I was expressing shock that Minish Cap isn't generally held to be one of the better games.

Maybe I'm wrong. I just didn't remember it getting a very warm reception back in the day.

Edited by SteveT, 10 July 2009 - 04:46 PM.

[joeymartin64]

Ransom, that basically sounds like Back to the Future meets Kingdom Hearts. It would make the timeline (not that I'm going to get into that here) an even bigger hash than it already is.

Steve, TMC did non-literal dual-world stuff via shrinking, and TP did it by changing the world as opposed to going to a different one (until later.) TWW could have had a much better underwater Hyrule going on. It's very possible to pull that stuff off without dimensional rifts and parallel realities. Yes, they're "cool," and if they consistently used the same one, I'd have no beef. It's the number of them that gets tiring - Dark World/Evil Realm, Termina, Minish Realm, the OTHER Dark World, Twilight Realm, Realm of the Ocean King or whatever...

Edited by joeymartin64, 11 July 2009 - 04:19 AM.

[D~N]

you're right that the Minish Cap overworld isn't an overworld at all. It's a dungeon with doors to more dungeons. It's more Brinstar the Peach's Castle. Reading your later posts in this thread, we have a fundamental disagreement about what a good overworld should be. Walking around open space isn't exactly exploring if there's nothing to find. With overworlds like in Twilight Princess (and especially Wind Waker), I would have rather had a stage select screen rather than a big empty hub. Exploration, to me, means trying to find a way into every nook and cranny in the world.

TMC, LttP, and MM all had one thing in common: the Overworld was every bit as interesting, if not more so, than the dungeons it connected. That's probably the main reason I like them best.

I like the stance you're taking on this issue, and oddly enough I agree with every bit of what you're saying. The difference between you and me is that while you want to find all these hidden suprises in a small-yet-dense overowrld rich with secrets, I'd prefer to find them in a vast overworld begging to be explored. You seemed to pinpoint our differences in your post and I agree - I prefer a different kind of exploration than you do. But what if I suggested this; what if you took the ammount of secrets that TMC had, and put them all in TP? You'd have to spread them out, right? THAT is my ideal scenario. I'm not saying TMC had too much stuff - quite the contrary, I loved the things the game contained - I just did not like the way it was laid out, with things everywhere to the point where you could hardly run.

So what do you say to this proposal; in the next Zelda game, have a comparable number of hidden areas and scerets as TMC had, only spread them out to fit an overworld that is of TP-like proportions. That way, exploration is both epic and puzzling everywhere you turn.

I agree that Link should have been more fragile in mini-mode, but transforming on the fly would make the very things you were just complaining about worse. So what if you take more damage, if you can just walk past the obstacle in big-form and shrink down when you get where you need to. Part of the design of Minish Cap was that you had to figure out new paths to various locations while you were small. Transforming at any time would close off all that design space, and transforming would be no different than opening a boring, normal-size door.

You makea great point here, but this could be easily fixed with a bit of tweaking. Of course, we're speaking in hypotheticals here, but if shrinking was possible on-the-fly, then we could limit is by restricting it to a magic-bar or something similar, so it couldn't be used simply to avoid certain enemies. This way a new level of gameplay is introduced where one must balance their usage of the shrink mechanic. But again, you do have a great point about it being the same thing as a door. The difference is that it's just -not- a door, and that is what makes it interesting. I'm not saying they should take out other stuff in favor of this mechanic, I'm saying that instead of that "boring, normal-sized door," we can have a shrink mechanic implemented every once and a while, just to change up the pace and remind me that I'm playing The Minish Cap. And like you said previously, isn't that what changing up the formula is all about; small tweaks to keep it fresh, but nothing too radically different?

Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm all for small changes within the formula, and don't think that radical innovations, just for the sake of change, are necessary. I like the idea of new puzzles, new items, and new parallel worlds--new versions of established mechanics, rather than rehashes of what's come before. The Minish Cap examples were all what I considered innovative twists the formula, that made the game feel fresh without radical changes.

Using Minish Cap again, take the plot. Like always, there's the "Collect the Totally Arbitrary Collectible Objects (TACOs)that will help you beat the boss." You go on thinking there's 4 dungeons. Then, you get to the end of the third dungeon, and the TACO isn't there anymore! Suddenly, dungeons aren't strictly bound to TACOs. It's a small touch, but it was just enough of a change that it helped break the series out of its rut.

Ok, yeah I see now. And I agree, too. I just wasn't sure what you meant. I'm smart but I've got no common sense so I need things spelt out for me sometimes. Yeah I agree here.

Hmmmm.
I see what you're saying about the need for space in a Zelda game DN. And to get that liberating, exploratory Zelda mood, [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of space to run around in is critical. However, i have to disagree that a full overworld is a bad thing.
Having heaps of elements to interact with, explore and find on the overworld makes traversing it over and over again (as one does in most Zeldas) interesting every time. Though i loved the adventurous space of TP, i also found it boring that being in an area once or twice was the end of finding anything interesting in it. Yeah riding over the glorious plains of Hyrule was awesome to begin with, but after the third or fourth time, it grew dull quickly.

This is why I thought the overworld in MM was more enjoyable because of its "cluttered" aspects.
Treasure chests, secret caves and hidden characters we're everywhere, and despite it being such a small map, (they struggled for space in the game as it was) it was a very immersive overworld, continually bringing surprises and new fun tidbits.
WW seemed to find an almost perfect balance between the two, with its full and heavily interactable islands on top of a big empty ocean. This similar format could definitely be achieved on a new Zelda, considering the larger space and better technology they would have to work with.

Again, I am not against TMC and it's bounty of hidden areas and fun stuff, I just wish the overworld was a little fuller. If I had things my way, like I said earlier in this post, I would have an overworld TP's size but with tons and tons of secrets to fill ever nook and crany. Unfortunately, TP could only focus on the size of the world and could not fill up the world with fun stuff, but here's where we differ; if you could have only one thing, a big overworld or a full overworld, yuo would probably take a full one and I would take a big one. I think size and feel take priority over puzzles and hidden items and areas. Part of the reason I love the Zelda series is because the original LoZ had such a big overworld that I would often get lost. Yet is wasn't teeming with secrets; quite the contrary, there were only a few shrubs that could be burned and only a handful of walls that could be bombed, and hell most of those CHARGED you money. So, when TP only has a few secrets per province or whatever, I don't mind it as much. Of course the more secrets the merrier, but I make due without them as long as the overworld itself is interesting and filled with great baddies.

TP was annoying to me because of taking so long to get from a to b, getting the ability to warp was the highlight of the game for me. about every single zelda possibly all of them had the ability to warp but none needed it more than TP I think, cause it takes to long I dont even think I will play it ever again, it got boring quick to me. TMC and MM were awesome in the fact that since it was small, they were able to pack more into it, I love being able to walk out and find something to do, instead of endlessly wandering the the fields in OoT and TP, soo verry teddiousss... Zelda was all about packing much into little if you think back, but now there going through the roof, I liked the dungeon items of TP but not the fact that once your done with an area you wont ever come back. Believe it or not my favorite zelda game is MM..

As I said, if you really think back to the original, it was really more about exploration of a huge, vast overworld with, to be frank, virtually no secrets, save for a money making game and a secret to everyone here and there. So when I prefer that, I guess it is true to the series roots. But like I said, I would love for the stuff of TMC to preoccupy me, so by all means take the great ammount of stuff in TMC and throw it in TP's world and spread it out a little!

Edited by D~N, 10 July 2009 - 05:28 PM.

[SteveT]

So what do you say to this proposal; in the next Zelda game, have a comparable number of hidden areas and scerets as TMC had, only spread them out to fit an overworld that is of TP-like proportions. That way, exploration is both epic and puzzling everywhere you turn.

That sounds good to me.

[joeymartin64]

Didn't TP pretty much have that, though? The overworld had a bunch of stuff you could only get by using wolf form, Clawshots, the Spinner, and so forth, and a bunch of caves where you had to use the lantern to see.

[GuardianNinja]

But the field, oh yessssss the field was an empty wasteland in a sense, I want moar stufffs in there

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I've got it!

Why on Earth do we have to have a Zelda game set in a huge sprawling country? Why can't we have one set in just one city? Do we have to have elemental dungeons? Oh... Oh... I've got it! Inspiration has hit me.

A huge city with parallel worlds. Six of 'em, one for each dungeon. There'd be a frozen over Hyrule City. A Hyrule City destroyed by a volcano with lava running through certain sections. An undead Hyrule City. A flooded Hyrule City. An abandoned Hyrule City overgrown with plants. And so forth. There'd be plenty to do because each world is the city.

[CID Farwin]

...I like it!

[GuardianNinja]

I've got it!

Why on Earth do we have to have a Zelda game set in a huge sprawling country? Why can't we have one set in just one city? Do we have to have elemental dungeons? Oh... Oh... I've got it! Inspiration has hit me.

A huge city with parallel worlds. Six of 'em, one for each dungeon. There'd be a frozen over Hyrule City. A Hyrule City destroyed by a volcano with lava running through certain sections. An undead Hyrule City. A flooded Hyrule City. An abandoned Hyrule City overgrown with plants. And so forth. There'd be plenty to do because each world is the city.

And what if that was only part of it? and afterwards you go back to termina, and finish up by gaining power from the wind fish to remove majoras mask from ganon's face then finish him off to remove Vaati's curse on the other sages, then the sages give you the power to go back in time to get Vaati's hat and remove it, then use the hat to wish for the triforce of power, then use all the triforks together assemble the triforce and its counter realm (another dungeon in an alternate overworldish place) then use the wish to annihalate Link and Ganon from the time line, then in an alternate universe all the links from every game gather and send there power to the current link to restore link into the time line (without ganon) and allow all the links to return to there respective universes and return piece to their own universe.

wow... a game idea

[joeymartin64]

Please tell me none of you are serious.

[spunky-monkey]

Well, the backtracking exploration has always been my least favorite element of Zelda and Metroid. Mostly because it's done in a very dull way. You know, like when I first explore a location I can tell that there's an item stuffed up in an area I can't reach, and I can see almost exactly how to get it, but know that I have to wait until I'm later into the game before I have to go out of my way, stop the main part of the quest, and come all the way back to get it. It's only on a rare occasion that backtracking actually opens up a whole new area to explore. So rare that I tend to now leave the backtrack items alone and just keep pushing forward.

I agree with your statement, though the problem lies in the poor game-design of your typical overworld, not the principle of backtracking itself. If the quest world is diverse and full of randomly generated events/NPCS/side quests then you have a greater desire to explore and finding rewards or random/unique items are all the sweeter.

With regards to your apathy toward trekking, I believe you're displaying the classic symptoms of an underlying level-design problem to its rotten core that all us gamers realise at some point or other, and these abject feelings of discontent ruin the entire adventure, having some of us spinning in an endless cycle of nostalgia toward previous titles that supposedly managed overworld/dungeon exploration "better" than its successor. This repetition we find ourselves in pushing hastily forward to an unseen finish line with exploring what should be a brilliant, magical wonderland instead is tackled with a backward mindset every occasion, interaction and accomplishment we make becomes monotonous, and this is all wrong, wrong, VERY WRONG.

Events in Zelda should not be set in concentrate, but as real-world events instead based on chance and orientation of the clock. Majora's Mask was the closest instalment the series has ever managed to achieve this in relation-to-time and Oracles with respects to the seasonal fluctuations, but why stop there? Combine both for more possibilities! Zelda on Wii should have a week-system or monthly schedule determining time-based events for its overworld.

For example: "Day x of Week 2": Cloud storms gather as people go fishing by Lake Hylia, shops elsewhere shut due to the impending bad weather. On lower ground condition aren't too bad with the odd thunder n' lighting display, but tornados form in the gullies and canyons, the mountaintop trails become dangerous in the downpour.

Day x Week 4: Rito people migrate through Hyrule and with them offer the player a chance to hear stories and trade inventory from lands far away. A festival takes place in Hyrule market offering the opportunity to take part in some of the contests and whatnot.

The above is just a demonstration but you get the basic idea, you have to 'spice up' the adventure and add variety that can and will affect gameplay, making your outing either a moderate or difficult one depending on what you do or don't do, other things are beyond your control altogether. Nintendo has executed exploration gameplay mechanics rather poorly as of late consequently making a lot of casual gamers presume the current formula is stagnating somehow and needs innovation (i.e. steam locomotives!) to survive and stay fresh and appealing which is utter bullshit in every sense of the word. Nintendo's designers seriously need to get back to basics and realise Zelda is purely about venturing into the unknown; anticipation and exhilaration comes later.

TP had enemies doing 3-hearts worth of damage,

That's what I thought until I met the chainball lizard mini-boss and I was nearly caught off guard. This spike in the difficulty curve wasn't welcome as the camera kept on freaking out everytime I tried to hookshot behind him. When that wasn't going haywire, Z-targeting then also freaked out so instead of stabbing him in the tail, Link kept facing the wrong bloody direction and often spin attacked empty air aimlessly.

I was always surprised that many gamers found Majora's Mask to be the most difficult game in the series. The enemies were weaker and the puzzles didn't seem too drastic compared to other Zelda games.

What? You sure you're even playing the same game? Fighting Igos du Ikana and Wart were no laughing matter first time round.

I think the MM cutscene was worse than a game over because it started ALL OVER...the loss of items and all

Any player who sits through six whole minutes of sad ethereal cataclysmic music as the countdown glows increasing red, and planet shakes violently, has no right to complain when the moon finally crashes at zero seconds remaining. Geez people.

Edited by spunky-monkey, 12 July 2009 - 06:40 AM.