818 replies to this topic

[Nerushi]

It's because they want the Miyamoto order to work, when it simply doesn't, so they dismiss everything that contradicts it. Things like retcons don't exist in their timelines, when Zelda's actually been full of them. Remember when OoT was supposed to lead straight into ALttP?

Speaking of which, they say that the Miyamoto timeline is superior because it has less flaws than OoT-ALTTP-LoZ. Less minor flaws maybe? But it sure does have some huge inconsistency problem that just doesn't make sense no matter how you put it. I mean, what most flawed? The Triforce not working out and Ganon being unexplained before LoZ or Ganon jumping in and out of the Sacred Realm, being unexplained for most part, yet OoT is still the Seal War despite having nothing to do with the seal in ALTTP, if one where to follow the Miyamoto timeline. Also, apparently, the Seal War doesn't have anything to do with ALTTP BS anymore, despite the term Seal War being made for ALTTP BS.

It's all there...
http://www.zeldauniv...-backstory.html

Edited by Nerushi, 06 September 2009 - 01:59 PM.

[Person]

It's because they want the Miyamoto order to work, when it simply doesn't, so they dismiss everything that contradicts it. Things like retcons don't exist in their timelines, when Zelda's actually been full of them. Remember when OoT was supposed to lead straight into ALttP?

Speaking of which, they say that the Miyamoto timeline is superior because it has less flaws than OoT-ALTTP-LoZ. Less minor flaws maybe? But it sure does have some huge inconsistency problem that just doesn't make sense no matter how you put it. I mean, what most flawed? The Triforce not working out and Ganon being unexplained before LoZ or Ganon jumping in and out of the Sacred Realm, being unexplained for most part, yet OoT is still the Seal War despite having nothing to do with the seal in ALTTP, if one where to follow the Miyamoto timeline. Also, apparently, the Seal War doesn't have anything to do with ALTTP BS anymore, despite the term Seal War being made for ALTTP BS.

It's all there...
http://www.zeldauniv...-backstory.html

The Seal War problem has been around forever. A lot of people throw it around without even knowing what it means.

[ganonlord6000]

I know this probably has nothing to do with kooky theories, but I mentioned Zelda Informer earlier and got in a small argument with Ermigard there regarding if LOZ's Ganon is Trident Ganon either yesterday or Friday. I mentioned that artwork from ALTTP's players guide and he dismissed it saying that other pieces of artwork in that guide where unreliable. BS-LOZ was also mentioned and he said that it shouldn't be viewed as canon even though Nintendo helped to develop it. How can someone not see the obvious creators intent here regarding Ganon and the trident in LOZ? Some of the people on ZI are turning out to be just as bad as some of the people on ZU.

It's because they want the Miyamoto order to work, when it simply doesn't, so they dismiss everything that contradicts it. Things like retcons don't exist in their timelines, when Zelda's actually been full of them. Remember when OoT was supposed to lead straight into ALttP?

Why doesn't ZI like to look at retcons? Honestly. Don't they know that the "Miyamoto order" was mistranslated? Now I know why you said that ZI has strange thoeries because they dismiss everything that they don't agree with.

[Person]

I know this probably has nothing to do with kooky theories, but I mentioned Zelda Informer earlier and got in a small argument with Ermigard there regarding if LOZ's Ganon is Trident Ganon either yesterday or Friday. I mentioned that artwork from ALTTP's players guide and he dismissed it saying that other pieces of artwork in that guide where unreliable. BS-LOZ was also mentioned and he said that it shouldn't be viewed as canon even though Nintendo helped to develop it. How can someone not see the obvious creators intent here regarding Ganon and the trident in LOZ? Some of the people on ZI are turning out to be just as bad as some of the people on ZU.

It's because they want the Miyamoto order to work, when it simply doesn't, so they dismiss everything that contradicts it. Things like retcons don't exist in their timelines, when Zelda's actually been full of them. Remember when OoT was supposed to lead straight into ALttP?

Why doesn't ZI like to look at retcons? Honestly. Don't they know that the "Miyamoto order" was mistranslated? Now I know why you said that ZI has strange thoeries because they dismiss everything that they don't agree with.

The Miyamoto order wasn't mistranslated, Miyamoto just doesn't give a crap about the timeline. Everybody else working on the game said OoT was supposed to lead into ALttP, not LoZ.

[Pinecove]

I beg to differ.
OoT-LoZ-AlttP works fine thankyouverymuch.

OoT-AlttP-LoZ has a bunch of inconsistancies, mainly the state of the Triforce, and the state of the dark world.

OoT-LoZ-ALttP on the other hand has only the inconsistancy of Ganon jumping in and out of the Sacred realm, and judging by the fact of recent games released that that HAS to happen, it doesn't really matter.

[Jarsh]

OoT-AlttP-LoZ has a bunch of inconsistancies, mainly the state of the Triforce, and the state of the dark world.

I'll give you the Triforce, but what is inconsistent about the state of the Dark World? It's not confirmed that LoZ's underworld is the same as the Dark World. And the 'world of spirits' in AoL may not necessarily be the same as the Sacred Realm, since Ganon was killed in LoZ, not sealed.

Edited by Jarsh, 07 September 2009 - 06:36 PM.

[Pinecove]

I'll give you the Triforce, but what is inconsistent about the state of the Dark World? It's not confirmed that LoZ's underworld is the same as the Dark World. And the 'world of spirits' in AoL may not necessarily be the same as the Sacred Realm, since Ganon was killed in LoZ, not sealed.

I never said that did I. In future please try not to asume things, just ask me first. I believe the Makai in LoZ is hell, not the Sacred realm.

Ganon in AlttP is said to have "accidentally re-discovered the Sacred Realm". Likewise in ALttP the Dark world is created by Ganon wishing on the entire Triforce.

OoT matches none of these events. Ganondorf did not accidentally re-discover the SR he purposely infiltrated it and ontop of that OoT suggests that it is the first time the Sacred Realm is discovered. The Dark world in OoT is made by Ganon walking into the SR not by him wishing on the Triforce. I'm not one to believe in Retcon.

In my opinion, Ganon escapes the Sacred realm in LoZ (which is actually supported by this quote:

Ganon the prince of theives has escaped the Dark world and......

(The rest goes on to explain the backstory of LoZ)) then dies. We know that a Makai dies on a person's death so the Sacred Realm was purified in time for ALttP.

Yet another thing that supports the Miyamotto order is the fact that BS LoZ's BS seems to be OoT (which at that point in time we know was the Impisoning war) which means that the stealing of the Triforce of Power (Can ToP be used?) was OoT.

[Average Gamer]

If the order was OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP, Ganon's Makai would have to be the Sacred Realm. In AoL's manual, it is said that Ganon's minions can bring lackeys out of Ganon's Makai without difficulty. Thus the Sages' Seal from OoT would logically be broken. After Link assembles and uses the entire Triforce, Ganon's Makai should cease to exist.

With that in mind, ALttP would have to feature a new Ganondorf wandering into a pristine Sacred Realm and corrupting it before a new Sages' Seal is made. Thus, there would be no point in mentioning the IW, seeing as how that Ganon was dead, that seal was broken, and that Dark World had ceased to exist.

OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP doesn't make sense.

[Pinecove]

I can submit two responses to that:

1. New games such as FSA fill in the gaps.
2. The Maki which Ganon's minons were calling monsters from was Hell seeing as the SR was sealed in the first place.

[Average Gamer]

1. New games such as FSA fill in the gaps.

Where would they go and how would they change things?

2. The Maki which Ganon's minons were calling monsters from was Hell seeing as the SR was sealed in the first place.

But if Ganon was trapped in the Sacred Realm that he had corrupted and had broken free, the Makai he'd be using would reasonably be the corrupted Sacred Realm.

[Pinecove]

Where would they go and how would they change things?

Let's asume for a second that ALttP is confirmed to come after TWW on the adult timeline.

Say we follow something like this:

/TWW/PH-TMC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA
OoT
\MM-TP-LoZ/AoL-OoS/OoA

Let's say Ganon breaks the seal for TWW instead of bypassing it like I asume he does in LoZ and goes on to do whatever. Before ALttP a new seal could be fomed and there you have it. Do you understand?

But if Ganon was trapped in the Sacred Realm that he had corrupted and had broken free, the Makai he'd be using would reasonably be the corrupted Sacred Realm.

What? Either he broke the seal in which case he would be using the SR as his Makai or he would have bypassed the seal without breaking it inwhich case he would use hell as his Makai.

[Average Gamer]

Let's asume for a second that ALttP is confirmed to come after TWW on the adult timeline.

Say we follow something like this:

/TWW/PH-TMC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA
OoT
\MM-TP-LoZ/AoL-OoS/OoA

Let's say Ganon breaks the seal for TWW instead of bypassing it like I asume he does in LoZ and goes on to do whatever. Before ALttP a new seal could be fomed and there you have it. Do you understand?

You do realize that you put LoZ and AoL on the Child Timeline up there, right? That already ruins the "Miyamoto Order".

Regarding your IW argument, the IW seal would have broken, the IW Ganon would have died, and the IW would still be pointless to mention.

What? Either he broke the seal in which case he would be using the SR as his Makai or he would have bypassed the seal without breaking it inwhich case he would use hell as his Makai.

I sincerely doubt that Ganon bypassed the seal, especially seeing as how seals are typically broken in the series. The one time Ganon "bypassed" a seal (ALttP) his immediate goal was to break that seal anyway. If OoT goes into LoZ, there is almost no way for the Sages' Seal to stay intact.

Edited by Average Gamer, 07 September 2009 - 07:42 PM.

[Pinecove]

You do realize that you put LoZ and AoL on the Child Timeline up there, right? That already ruins the "Miyamoto Order".

Alright, so:

/TWW/PH-LoZ/aoL-OoS/OoA-TMC-FS/FSA-ALtP/LA
OoT
\MM-TP

My point was to prove that Ganon Can exit and enter the Sacred Realm more then once.

Regarding your IW argument, the IW seal would have broken, the IW Ganon would have died, and the IW would still be pointless to mention.

Why? After TW was released, Aonuma told us that all Ganon's are the same. Weather spirit or not, it still pays to mention the SW because that sets the stage for ALttP by it because of the sages.

I sincerely doubt that Ganon bypassed the seal, especially seeing as how seals are typically broken in the series. The one time Ganon "bypassed" a seal (ALttP) his immediate goal was to break that seal anyway. If OoT goes into LoZ, there is almost no way for the Sages' Seal to stay intact.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in PH doesn't Ceilia bypass some sort of seal? She never had a goal to break it as far as I'm concerned. Back to LoZ even if Ganon did want to eventually break the seal do you think that would be his main goal? In ALttP he's safe inside his hideout raising an army. In LoZ he's not in his hideout and his main goal is to conquor all of Hyrule plus capture the Triforce of wisdom.

[ganonlord6000]

You do realize that you put LoZ and AoL on the Child Timeline up there, right? That already ruins the "Miyamoto Order".

Alright, so:

/TWW/PH-LoZ/aoL-OoS/OoA-TMC-FS/FSA-ALtP/LA
OoT
\MM-TP

My point was to prove that Ganon Can exit and enter the Sacred Realm more then once.

Regarding your IW argument, the IW seal would have broken, the IW Ganon would have died, and the IW would still be pointless to mention.

Why? After TW was released, Aonuma told us that all Ganon's are the same. Weather spirit or not, it still pays to mention the SW because that sets the stage for ALttP by it because of the sages.

I sincerely doubt that Ganon bypassed the seal, especially seeing as how seals are typically broken in the series. The one time Ganon "bypassed" a seal (ALttP) his immediate goal was to break that seal anyway. If OoT goes into LoZ, there is almost no way for the Sages' Seal to stay intact.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in PH doesn't Ceilia bypass some sort of seal? She never had a goal to break it as far as I'm concerned. Back to LoZ even if Ganon did want to eventually break the seal do you think that would be his main goal? In ALttP he's safe inside his hideout raising an army. In LoZ he's not in his hideout and his main goal is to conquor all of Hyrule plus capture the Triforce of wisdom.

Did you get the last part of this from the cartoon? That is what Ganon was trying almost every episode (I have seen them approximately 50 times and have them on DVD) and they aren't (or at least shouldn't be) canon anyways. Besides, Ganon bypassing a seal in LOZ is meaningless overall since he was killed at the end of the game anyways. ALTTP/LA-LOZ/AOL works way better than LOZ/AOL-ALTTP/LA. The first one might work well if the oracles go in between. The Miyamoto order doesn't make a bit of sense in my opinion.

[Average Gamer]

Alright, so:

/TWW/PH-LoZ/aoL-OoS/OoA-TMC-FS/FSA-ALtP/LA
OoT
\MM-TP

My point was to prove that Ganon Can exit and enter the Sacred Realm more then once.

Yet the IW still wouldn't be worth mentioning since everything involving it had already been concluded.

Why? After TW was released, Aonuma told us that all Ganon's are the same.

Yet nothing indicates that the people know that it's the same guy reincarnated. The IW is still not worth mentioning since Ganon would have entered the Sacred Realm and corrupted it differently in his second life leading into ALttP.

Weather spirit or not, it still pays to mention the SW because that sets the stage for ALttP by it because of the sages.

The Sages were apparently forgotten on the AT though. Also, with the "Miyamoto Order" the Sages who cast the ALttP seal wouldn't be the OoT Sages, meaning that there would be no reason to mention the IW.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in PH doesn't Ceilia bypass some sort of seal? She never had a goal to break it as far as I'm concerned.

I thought that Cielia just tried to escape from Bellum's goons. She apparently lost her memories in the process, so it's not like the Ganon scenarios. Even then, the seal was broken/Bellum's goons were killed and Cielia became whole again.

Back to LoZ even if Ganon did want to eventually break the seal do you think that would be his main goal? In ALttP he's safe inside his hideout raising an army. In LoZ he's not in his hideout and his main goal is to conquor all of Hyrule plus capture the Triforce of wisdom.

And in LoZ he's already conquered Hyrule and captured the princess. The fact that no steps were taken to break any kind of seal suggests that if he was sealed he broke said seal before the game.

[Person]

I suppose that some blame can be laid on NoA for their VC description of LoZ. It says that Ganon broke out of the Dark World prior to the game, while the game itself says no such thing.

Also, might I bring up the back of the ALttP box that explicitly refers to the game as a prequel in both English and Japanese?

[Sign of Justice]

Ganon in AlttP is said to have "accidentally re-discovered the Sacred Realm". Likewise in ALttP the Dark world is created by Ganon wishing on the entire Triforce.

Kinda, but no.

Then, the one who again discovered the sacred land was the thief called Ganondrof.

(by the way. The typo "Ganondrof" is actually in the translation table. Makin' sure you know I'm not pullin' the quote outta mah ass ) It was created "by Ganondorf". According to Miyamoto, OoT Ganondorf became the Ganon of LttP. If LttP Ganondorf (note human(/Gerudo.../non-beast) form) created the DW then this must have been during the SW, right? Because after the SW Ganondorf was Ganon. Since we know SW Ganon = LttP Ganon (atleast in 1998...) then how could Ganondorf's "rediscovering" of the SR happen any time after the SW?

With that in mind, ALttP would have to feature a new Ganondorf wandering into a pristine Sacred Realm and corrupting it before a new Sages' Seal is made. Thus, there would be no point in mentioning the IW, seeing as how that Ganon was dead, that seal was broken, and that Dark World had ceased to exist.

Well, then... that's actually a really good argument.

[Person]

This ZU thread by Lex makes me weep ever so hardly.
"Cryptic Quote By Aonuma that may give clues to TP's timeline placement."

Typical Lex bullcrappery. Take a quote out of context and twist it to mean something that it never meant in the first place.

And if you think this is turning into another Dark Mirror debate, you'd be correct. It seems that that is Lex's issue of the day now that his inane Seal War arguments have run their course.

This is why I really really hate ZU, to be honest.

[Pinecove]

Did you get the last part of this from the cartoon? That is what Ganon was trying almost every episode (I have seen them approximately 50 times and have them on DVD) and they aren't (or at least shouldn't be) canon anyways.

No I've never seen the cartoon.

Besides, Ganon bypassing a seal in LOZ is meaningless overall since he was killed at the end of the game anyways. ALTTP/LA-LOZ/AOL works way better than LOZ/AOL-ALTTP/LA. The first one might work well if the oracles go in between. The Miyamoto order doesn't make a bit of sense in my opinion.

It makes sense because Ganon in ALttP couldn't find a way out. Also Let's add OoX into this: OoT/MM-LoZ/AoL-OoS/OoA-ALttP/LA.

That makes more sense now. It completely takes titles into context.

Yet the IW still wouldn't be worth mentioning since everything involving it had already been concluded.

Not really, as ALttP has the decendents of the sages who made the original seal.

Yet nothing indicates that the people know that it's the same guy reincarnated. The IW is still not worth mentioning since Ganon would have entered the Sacred Realm and corrupted it differently in his second life leading into ALttP.

Exactly my point because if OoT was the IW and the order was OoT-ALttP-LoZ then something would be seriously messed up.

The Sages were apparently forgotten on the AT though. Also, with the "Miyamoto Order" the Sages who cast the ALttP seal wouldn't be the OoT Sages, meaning that there would be no reason to mention the IW.

Um...no they weren't. We see them in the basement of Hyrule castle. That's illogical and you can't prove it.

I thought that Cielia just tried to escape from Bellum's goons. She apparently lost her memories in the process, so it's not like the Ganon scenarios. Even then, the seal was broken/Bellum's goons were killed and Cielia became whole again.

We can't really debate this unless we have Japanese texts can we?

And in LoZ he's already conquered Hyrule and captured the princess. The fact that no steps were taken to break any kind of seal suggests that if he was sealed he broke said seal before the game.

Then I hereby withdraw my first statement of Ganon bypassing the seal and submit the idea that there were two seals.

Kinda, but no.

Excuse me? Atleast explain why then.

(by the way. The typo "Ganondrof" is actually in the translation table. Makin' sure you know I'm not pullin' the quote outta mah ass ) It was created "by Ganondorf". According to Miyamoto, OoT Ganondorf became the Ganon of LttP. If LttP Ganondorf (note human(/Gerudo.../non-beast) form) created the DW then this must have been during the SW, right? Because after the SW Ganondorf was Ganon. Since we know SW Ganon = LttP Ganon (atleast in 1998...) then how could Ganondorf's "rediscovering" of the SR happen any time after the SW

Source?

[MikePetersSucks]

PROTIP: Don't try and argue shit about the Dark World while waiting for me to answer your questions about it in PMs. You look like a jackass.

[Pinecove]

Um....I'm not arguing FSA DW I'm arguing ALttP/OoT DW.

So thanks, but no thanks.

[Sign of Justice]

Kinda, but no.

Excuse me? Atleast explain why then.

(by the way. The typo "Ganondrof" is actually in the translation table. Makin' sure you know I'm not pullin' the quote outta mah ass ) It was created "by Ganondorf". According to Miyamoto, OoT Ganondorf became the Ganon of LttP. If LttP Ganondorf (note human(/Gerudo.../non-beast) form) created the DW then this must have been during the SW, right? Because after the SW Ganondorf was Ganon. Since we know SW Ganon = LttP Ganon (atleast in 1998...) then how could Ganondorf's "rediscovering" of the SR happen any time after the SW

Source?

Ugh... I've given you the quote on ZU before. I can't find it at the moment, though, but someone from that thread mentioned

The order Miyamoto gave in 1998 doesn't make since either, like there was a misunderstanding. In the 100 question interview about Zelda 64, he mentions how Ganondorf from the Super Nintendo game is in his human form before he became a monster. So I'd figure he'd have an idea of ALttP's relation to Ocarina of Time.

Which is the exact quote I'm referring to. I'm sure you remember it.

[Pinecove]

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about anymore...

I'm asking for the quote by Miyamotto. NOT people telling me about the so-called existing quote.

[Person]

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about anymore...

I'm asking for the quote by Miyamotto. NOT people telling me about the so-called existing quote.

In an interview before OoT was released, he said that this game was where Ganon from ALttP was born. The actual source is difficult to obtain, as it's from 1998 and most sites hosting the interview have gone down since then.

[Pinecove]

Ganon or Ganondorf? The wording is very important.

[Average Gamer]

Not really, as ALttP has the decendents of the sages who made the original seal.

Yet there is no point in mentioning the entire war, not to mention that the ALttP Maidens were all human and the Sage bloodline was said to be literal, meaning that they couldn't have been the actual descendants of the OoT Sages.

Exactly my point because if OoT was the IW and the order was OoT-ALttP-LoZ then something would be seriously messed up.

No, Ganon would be in the place he was sent to in OoT's ending, the IW seal would be intact, and the IW Ganon would still be alive. OoT-ALttP-LoZ-AoL makes more sense than OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP.

Um...no they weren't. We see them in the basement of Hyrule castle.

Yet the people on the Great Sea have almost completely forgotten about Hyrule and the old culture; Hyrule is only a nameless myth to them that acts as the mere setting for the Legend of the Hero. Also, the basement room of Hyrule Castle was meant to be hidden, meaning that the public wouldn't be going down there anyway even when Hyrule was alive.

We can't really debate this unless we have Japanese texts can we?

I think they're somewhere on the site.

Edited by Average Gamer, 08 September 2009 - 05:39 PM.

[Pinecove]

Yet there is no point in mentioning the entire war, not to mention that the ALttP Maidens were all human and the Sage bloodline was said to be literal, meaning that they couldn't have been the actual descendants of the OoT Sages.

Source that it was meant to be literal?

No, Ganon would be in the place he was sent to in OoT's ending, the IW seal would be intact, and the IW Ganon would still be alive. OoT-ALttP-LoZ-AoL makes more sense than OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP.

But you just said yourself that the transformations of the SR in OoT and ALttP are different. You can't say one thing about a topic then bitch about it when you believe OoT isn't the IW anymore. It doesn't work.

Yet the people on the Great Sea have almost completely forgotten about Hyrule and the old culture; Hyrule is only a nameless myth to them that acts as the mere setting for the Legend of the Hero. Also, the basement room of Hyrule Castle was meant to be hidden, meaning that the public wouldn't be going down there anyway even when Hyrule was alive.

We're not debating intent now though, we're debating original intent.

[Person]

In the quote, he says that this is the origin of Ganon "from the SNES game." The whole Ganon/Ganondorf dichotomy is a false dilemma anyway, since in TP and TWW he goes by both names interchangeably and even called "Dark Lord Ganon" while in human form.

[ganonlord6000]

Why are we talking about something from 1998? Honestly. I can't believe that people are so caught up in the idea that OOT is the IW that they ignore the games that makes this connection possible (TWW, TP, FSA). How long will it take for people to stop believing that OOT is the IW? Even if a game is released in the future that is actually stated either in the game or by Nintendo to be the IW people will still think that OOT is still the IW because of quotes regarding an eleven-year-old game. Even the Miyamoto timeline is impossible with the newer games. In the current continuty FSA is more than likely to be the IW unless Nintendo kills off FSA's Ganon and introduces a new Ganon with a backstory identical to ALTTP's Ganon. It is still refered to as the IW on wikipedia (not the most reliable site). If you type in "Imprisioning War" on wikipedia it leads right to their OOT article. Even other sites still think that this quote from 11 years ago is still accurate.

[Pinecove]

The whole Ganon/Ganondorf dichotomy is a false dilemma anyway, since in TP and TWW he goes by both names interchangeably and even called "Dark Lord Ganon" while in human form.

Completely wrong.

AST or ancient stone tablets, for BS LoZ confirms that Ganon is an essense which will survive even when the body of Ganondorf is destroyed. As for when the essense is sestroyed? I really have no idea but I think it's safe to say that Ganon has to be revived at that point...

Why are we talking about something from 1998? Honestly. I can't believe that people are so caught up in the idea that OOT is the IW that they ignore the games that makes this connection possible (TWW, TP, FSA). How long will it take for people to stop believing that OOT is the IW? Even if a game is released in the future that is actually stated either in the game or by Nintendo to be the IW people will still think that OOT is still the IW because of quotes regarding an eleven-year-old game. Even the Miyamoto timeline is impossible with the newer games. In the current continuty FSA is more than likely to be the IW unless Nintendo kills off FSA's Ganon and introduces a new Ganon with a backstory identical to ALTTP's Ganon. It is still refered to as the IW on wikipedia (not the most reliable site). If you type in "Imprisioning War" on wikipedia it leads right to their OOT article. Even other sites still think that this quote from 11 years ago is still accurate.

Completely wrong also: FSA was at one point going to be the SW, however that idea was scrapped. And the Miyamotto timeline CAN still work in today's timeline.

OoT-TWW/PH-LoZ/AoL-OoS/OoA-TMC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA