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#241 Pinecove

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 03:34 PM

Well then you're a bit screwed, as the Zelda series has plenty... Look at the Imprisoning War mess. Or various conflicts between TMC, FS and FSA (Vaati's backstory, the Palace of Winds, the elements/royal jewels). Or, you know, KnS changing what was depicted as a death into a sealing instead.


IW= It can be explained a variet of ways. No need for retcon. Only change in intent.

FS BS = Why can't something happen inbetween TMC and FS?

AST/KnS = I've already explained my case on that. Why can't Ganon's body be sealed and his soul live on?

TWW, and possibly AOL, since it does seem to scatter when Link uses it.


Logic seems to indicate that OoS/OoA happen after AoL though...

They're not used interchangeably, and fun fact: The word "revived" isn't in the Japanese TWW backstory script.


It's said in the Hylian script.

And Yami didn't have seven heads. Are you thinking of Orochi, whose body was broken and his soul sealed in Tsukuyomi? Because even if so, that's a very different situation.


Yeah that must be it. How so?

#242 Jarsh

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 04:10 PM

It's said in the Hylian script.


Do you mean this?

It is said, having appeared by crossing time this person was called the Hero of Time, and became a legend in the kingdom. A time later, the kingdom that had been thought to have had its peace returned, again, had dark clouds standing over it. The one who held the evil power, who had been thought to have been sealed forever by the efforts of the hero, revived with no reason.


Anyhow, I take "revive" as pertaining to the fourth of these options:

1. To return to life or consciousness.
2. To regain health, vigor, or good spirits.
3. To return to use, currency, or notice.
4. To return to validity, effectiveness, or operative condition.

Edited by Jarsh, 12 September 2009 - 04:13 PM.


#243 Person

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 05:21 PM

This topic needs splitting. It's far off-topic.

#244 Sir Turtlelot

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 05:29 PM

This topic needs splitting. It's far off-topic.

Indeed it does, this is getting confusing.

#245 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 06:18 PM

It's said in the Hylian script.


You know how tremendously silly that is, right? Hylian script is just a cypher. There's English Hylian for the Western games, and Japanese Hylian for the Japanese games. The Japanese Hylian? No "revived" in there.

Yeah that must be it. How so?


Well, for one thing, no situation in the games that we've seen involves Ganon dying, and then having his soul sealed. Nor is there any situation involving Ganon reviving himself without someone's assistance or calling his soul from the other world. Whenever Ganon was sealed, he wasn't killed yet, nor was his body really impaired in any significant way. Orochi, however, gets his body broken and destroyed, and his spirit had to be sealed because, as long as there was darkness in the hearts of men, Orochi could just come back to life without needing assistance. Ganon has no such superpower.

#246 Sign of Justice

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 06:39 PM

^...Wait what? I've never heard of the NoA TWW having different Hylian than the NoJ TWW.

Not saying you're wrong, but can anyone give me a link to translations to the NoJ TWW Hylian? Because here it most definitely says that Ganon was "revived with no reason". Of course this is in the exact same sentence referring to him being sealed. I agree with Impossible on this:

Revival in general can refer to things other than coming back from death, like coming back from being incapacitated.


IW= It can be explained a variet of ways. No need for retcon. Only change in intent.

Isn't that, you know, a retcon? How the hell can OoT be the SW if there aren't retcons? Saying you don't believe in retcons, but that you believe the story of the SW can actually be the SW is an oxymoron. For OoT to be the SW (even in 1998) the SW story had to be retconned, severely. And since TWW it had to be retconned even further. Either way it's a retcon, pure and simple.

Edited by Sign of Justice, 12 September 2009 - 06:56 PM.


#247 Person

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 07:04 PM

From one of the topics Average Gamer posted:

Why are we forgetting that GBA AlttP and TP makes the Seal War not involve Ganon?

Ganon didn't make a dark world in OoT AT, he caused a flood, and he couldn't make a dark world in OoT CT because he never touched the triforce.

The 'time when evil came out of the sacred realm was during the Seal war, which happened before OoT and is what caused the sages to make the Seal.

OoT =/= SW
OoT= imprisoning war because Ganon is imprisoned.

Lex's definitions only have meaning because you people continue this discussion

And Impossible's contradiction makes AlttP a CT game only because of the way you people define the Seal War. The Seal War is the Seal War with or without the events of OoT.

The Seal War, the Imprisoning War, and the Fierce War are not being defined as Aonuma has defined them since tWW.

I don't believe "Seal War" is actually ever used as two words in the same sentence in any Zelda game ever.

The Seal War is something that was made up here at ZU to explain AlttP BS as OOt.


That's possibly the most ignorant rambling I've ever heard. Here again we have the problem of people not understanding what the Seal War is supposed to be.

EDIT: I also love how Pinecove tries to argue LoZ-ALttP based on Ganon's title alone, while ignoring the back of the box that says "This game takes place before LoZ."

Edited by Person, 12 September 2009 - 07:08 PM.


#248 Impossible

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 12:24 AM

IW= It can be explained a variet of ways. No need for retcon. Only change in intent.

FS BS = Why can't something happen inbetween TMC and FS?

AST/KnS = I've already explained my case on that. Why can't Ganon's body be sealed and his soul live on?


Er... do you know what a retcon is? If intent changes, that's a retcon. The IW's intent was changed from being the events described in ALttP's manual to being the very different events of OoT, and then their intent was once again altered to be more consistent with ALttP when the GBA version and TWW came out in 2002, contradicting the originally intended connection. That's a retcon, plain and simple. As well as that, the seal from OoT is no longer the seal from ALttP, and the Ganon from OoT is no longer the Ganon from ALttP, directly retconning the statement that OoT tells the origins of ALttP's Ganon.

With FS, there's more than one contradiction aside from the backstory, if you were paying attention... And speculation doesn't change the fact that Vaati's backstory was retconned.

ALttP shows Ganon basically being killed/disappearing, with no implication of him being sealed, and NOTHING indicating that a seal would be the intent. KnS changes the original intent of Ganon's defeat to being a seal. It wasn't before. I didn't say it was a contradiction, I said it was a retcon. The seal did not exist in the canon in any way until KnS went back and said it was actually a seal for the sake of bringing Ganon back into its own story.

#249 DarkZero24

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 02:18 AM

Threads like these make me feel like we've made little to no progress at all, despite all these years of debating and theorizing.

#250 Jarsh

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 02:20 AM

Threads like these make me feel like we've made little to no progress at all, despite all these years of debating and theorizing.

If you need reaffirmation, just look at all of the re-translated text that have brought more than a few things to light.

#251 Masamune

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 09:25 AM

Actually, I'm pretty sure re-translations just brought us further away. We're a self-defeating group!

#252 Pinecove

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 02:12 PM

Note: At some point in this reply while I was typing my apostorphies turned into ès and my question marks to És. I have no idea how to fix this so please bear with me for the moment.

Do you mean this?


Yes I do. Thank you Jarsh.

You know how tremendously silly that is, right? Hylian script is just a cypher. There's English Hylian for the Western games, and Japanese Hylian for the Japanese games. The Japanese Hylian? No "revived" in there.


Actually the english Hylian didn't apear untill TP was released.

And yes there is. Look at what Jarsh provided. (Exact quote:)

The one who held the evil power, who had been thought to have been sealed forever by the efforts of the hero, revived with no reason.


Well, for one thing, no situation in the games that we've seen involves Ganon dying, and then having his soul sealed. Nor is there any situation involving Ganon reviving himself without someone's assistance or calling his soul from the other world. Whenever Ganon was sealed, he wasn't killed yet, nor was his body really impaired in any significant way. Orochi, however, gets his body broken and destroyed, and his spirit had to be sealed because, as long as there was darkness in the hearts of men, Orochi could just come back to life without needing assistance. Ganon has no such superpower.


He has the Triforce.

Isn't that, you know, a retcon? How the hell can OoT be the SW if there aren't retcons? Saying you don't believe in retcons, but that you believe the story of the SW can actually be the SW is an oxymoron. For OoT to be the SW (even in 1998) the SW story had to be retconned, severely. And since TWW it had to be retconned even further. Either way it's a retcon, pure and simple.


Nope. A retcon is something where something in a game no-longer is considered Canon because it's defied by another game. For example the TP map might retcon the OoT map because the locations of Death mountain and Zora's domain have switched.

However the IW (isn't Seal war the correct translation?) can be explained WITHOUT any games retconing something else. Either my definition of a retcon is messed up, or I'm thinking of something completely different.

Er... do you know what a retcon is? If intent changes, that's a retcon. The IW's intent was changed from being the events described in ALttP's manual to being the very different events of OoT, and then their intent was once again altered to be more consistent with ALttP when the GBA version and TWW came out in 2002, contradicting the originally intended connection. That's a retcon, plain and simple. As well as that, the seal from OoT is no longer the seal from ALttP, and the Ganon from OoT is no longer the Ganon from ALttP, directly retconning the statement that OoT tells the origins of ALttP's Ganon.


Ah, well then you and I have two seperate definitions of a retcon. That explains [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. I donèt believe intent changing = Retcon. I believe retcon is the act of changing something in a story which contradicts something so much that the first thing has to be discounted as Canon.

ALttP shows Ganon basically being killed/disappearing, with no implication of him being sealed, and NOTHING indicating that a seal would be the intent. KnS changes the original intent of Ganon's defeat to being a seal. It wasn't before. I didn't say it was a contradiction, I said it was a retcon. The seal did not exist in the canon in any way until KnS went back and said it was actually a seal for the sake of bringing Ganon back into its own story.


The point is, that even if that is a retcon, doesnèt that mean that the Ganon in LoZ cant really be explained as Ganonès soul is destroyed at the end of ASTÉ (asuming of coarse that LoZ comes after AlttP.)

#253 Average Gamer

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 03:37 PM

He has the Triforce.


He lost the Triforce upon his death. Also, since Ganon was just a typical bum back when ALttP came out and he depended on the power he gained from the Triforce, his spirit should have been helpless.

Nope. A retcon is something where something in a game no-longer is considered Canon because it's defied by another game.


The OoT=IW idea was blatantly defied by The Wind Waker.

However the IW (isn't Seal war the correct translation?) can be explained WITHOUT any games retconing something else.


Lol wut?

For OoT to somehow remain the IW, you'd have to hideously contort the facts and jump through a million hoops?and when things get that bad that's where a retcon is meant to come in.

The point is, that even if that is a retcon, doesnèt that mean that the Ganon in LoZ cant really be explained as Ganonès soul is destroyed at the end of ASTÉ (asuming of coarse that LoZ comes after AlttP.)


Doesn't Ganon say that he's revived himself, meaning that you aren't obliterating his soul from existence?

#254 Showsni

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 03:45 PM

Please, no more off topic talk, name calling, insults, and... just read the rules, 'kay? If someone insults you, try to rise above it, don't answer back and turn it into a flamefest. If an interesting point comes up that's outside the scope of the thread, please start a new thread to discuss it. Now! I'll lock the thread next time, but I'll give it another chance, so bear that in mind!

If you start a new thread and ask nicely, I'll move posts that you want over there for you.


#255 Pinecove

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 04:05 PM

The OoT=IW idea was blatantly defied by The Wind Waker.


Only if OoT-AlttP-LoZ was fact. But I'm not here to argue about that.

Lol wut?

For OoT to somehow remain the IW, you'd have to hideously contort the facts and jump through a million hoops?and when things get that bad that's where a retcon is meant to come in.


Yes but THERE'S NO PROVEN RETCON!

FSA was the biggest chance it had. The SW doesn't requite retcon if it comes between FSA and ALttP; Only specualtion.

Doesn't Ganon say that he's revived himself, meaning that you aren't obliterating his soul from existence?


He never says that. MPS is wrong too:

いまから 石盤の力を借り
魔を封じるさいごの力を
よみがえらせます
Now, borrow the tablet?s
power and prevent the King of

Evil?s greatest powers from
being resurrected


なんや知らんけど
ガノンがよみがえったんやって
かなわんなぁ
It's not easy to tell, but Ganon
hasn't managed to fully revive.


光の勇者よ 魔王の結界は
退魔の剣マスターソードで
うちやぶることができます
Hero of Light!
The Master Sword, the Sword
of Evil's Bane, can destroy

the King of Evil?s seal.
... ... ...


何かすさまじい力を感じます
光の勇者よ ここです
ここに何かが封じられています
I sense a terrible power, Hero
of Light. Something has been
sealed here.

8枚の石盤とムドラの書で
この封印が解けるはずです
しばらく待っていてください
We must use the eight Stone
Tablets and the Book of
Mudora to undo this seal.


These are all the references I could find of Ganon in AST. Nowhere does it say that Ganon sealed his soul in the tablets. So unless someone can provide me with a quote and a source it's either a retcon or an Orochi type situation.

For reference this is what Ganon himself says:

クックックッ?
やはり ここへ来たのは
きさまであったか
Heheheh...
So you still came all the way
here?

ワシの目にくるいはなかった
きさまの力は
このワシがいただく いざ!
My eyes have not been
fooled. I shall take your
power for myself! Now!
---
さすがだ その力があれば
世界はワシの物になる
わが秘術のまえにやぶれされ!
As I expected!
With that power, the world
will be mine.



#256 Sir Turtlelot

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 04:40 PM

So long kooky theories thread, you will be missed.

...

:cry:

#257 Average Gamer

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 05:06 PM

I'll just send a PM to Destiny.

#258 ganonlord6000

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 10:13 PM

Getting back on topic, I saw something extremly kooky on Zeldapedia today. Apparantly, they think that Ganon's full name is Ganondorf Dragmire. Don't tthey know that half of the stuff in th old ALTTP (US) manual was made up? They also thik that Ganon was still alive after TWW (didn't either Miyamoto or Aounoma confirm that he was dead at the end of TWW shortly after its release?) Some of their articles contain theories that are filled with endless speculation. I'll post links to these articles later if you guys want to see them.

#259 Person

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 01:41 AM

Getting back on topic, I saw something extremly kooky on Zeldapedia today. Apparantly, they think that Ganon's full name is Ganondorf Dragmire. Don't tthey know that half of the stuff in th old ALTTP (US) manual was made up? They also thik that Ganon was still alive after TWW (didn't either Miyamoto or Aounoma confirm that he was dead at the end of TWW shortly after its release?) Some of their articles contain theories that are filled with endless speculation. I'll post links to these articles later if you guys want to see them.

When you don't have to cite your sources, fancruft oozes over. I like ZeldaWiki better because of that.

EDIT: This is really unrelated, but I once ran into a guy who tried to argue that the Prima Games guide was canon. Seriously.

Edited by Person, 14 September 2009 - 01:52 AM.


#260 ganonlord6000

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 04:33 PM

Getting back on topic, I saw something extremly kooky on Zeldapedia today. Apparantly, they think that Ganon's full name is Ganondorf Dragmire. Don't tthey know that half of the stuff in th old ALTTP (US) manual was made up? They also thik that Ganon was still alive after TWW (didn't either Miyamoto or Aounoma confirm that he was dead at the end of TWW shortly after its release?) Some of their articles contain theories that are filled with endless speculation. I'll post links to these articles later if you guys want to see them.

When you don't have to cite your sources, fancruft oozes over. I like ZeldaWiki better because of that.

EDIT: This is really unrelated, but I once ran into a guy who tried to argue that the Prima Games guide was canon. Seriously.

I totally agree with you there. Zeldawiki is a lot better than Zeldapedia. Honestly. Why does Zeldapedia (and many others) believe that Ganon survived TWW when he got a sword slammed into his brain? Wasn't it confirmed by either Miyamoto or Aounoma that Ganon was dead and not sealed in stone at the end of TWW? Zeldapedia also thinks that TMC takes palce in a new Hyrule and the wonder why FSA takes palce in old Hyrule. They think it was rediscovered. If TMC is before OOT then this isn't an issue. And who would believe that the Prima guides are canon? At least the Nintendo guides have a chance at being canon because Nintendo helped make them.

I just found a timeline on Youtube that makes very little sense. You can check it out here:

Note: This guy told me that leaving out FSA was a complete accident. Why are there very few youtube timelines that are any good? Even my old timeline (it should be on these forums somewhere) is better than some of those timelines.

I just found another insane youtube theory:





The first two parts of this theory aren't bad but it gets EXTREMLY bad in the third video by including the G&W game and the Game watch (aren't these the same game?) and says that the only reason people place TMC first is "because of the hat". That is actually the least of the reasons that many theorists place TMC first. I just want to see one good timeline on Youtube for once.

Edited by ganonlord6000, 14 September 2009 - 05:04 PM.


#261 Person

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 07:26 PM

That first theory looked like someone took the Gametrailers timeline and just fixed their more obvious errors.

The second one was good up until the third part. Four timelines? What the heck? Doesn't he undertand the concept of a stable time loop?

Edited by Person, 14 September 2009 - 07:28 PM.


#262 Average Gamer

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 02:30 AM

http://www.zeldauniv...d-sun-gods.html

I find that a lot of MM theories are borderline fanfiction and/or involve massive stretches to make things work. I doubt that the war in Ikana involved a clash of gods, and I sincerely doubt that the pillars in the Twinmold fight are meant to be anything other than gameplay-related items, like switches or blocks.

#263 Person

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 10:50 AM

http://www.zeldauniv...d-sun-gods.html

I find that a lot of MM theories are borderline fanfiction and/or involve massive stretches to make things work. I doubt that the war in Ikana involved a clash of gods, and I sincerely doubt that the pillars in the Twinmold fight are meant to be anything other than gameplay-related items, like switches or blocks.

But what about teh symbolizum????!?

And seriously, where does he pull the "Fierce Deity is the Moon incarnate" from? Why would the sun god use the moon as its instrument of destruction? This is bad even as a fanfic theory.

#264 ganonlord6000

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 04:30 PM

Where the heck do people come up with this stuff? I swear, Zelda Universe and Youtube have the worst theorizers.

The second one was good up until the third part. Four timelines? What the heck? Doesn't he undertand the concept of a stable time loop?

I know. I wonder why he has a timeline for each time Link traveled through time in OOT when he was traveling back and forth on a single timeline. He didn't even come up with splits like that for OOA when Link went back in time and I think that Link traveled back in time lots more times in OOA than in OOT. Youtube is full of idiots.

Edited by ganonlord6000, 15 September 2009 - 04:33 PM.


#265 Person

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 07:03 PM

Where the heck do people come up with this stuff? I swear, Zelda Universe and Youtube have the worst theorizers.

The second one was good up until the third part. Four timelines? What the heck? Doesn't he undertand the concept of a stable time loop?

I know. I wonder why he has a timeline for each time Link traveled through time in OOT when he was traveling back and forth on a single timeline. He didn't even come up with splits like that for OOA when Link went back in time and I think that Link traveled back in time lots more times in OOA than in OOT. Youtube is full of idiots.

The main problem is that time travel in Zelda is not consistent. In OoT, Link is on a single timeline until Zelda changes history at the end by sending him back before he took the Master Sword. Since no such universe-changing event happens in Oracles either, they just happen on a time loop. Same with MM.

#266 DarkZero24

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 08:06 PM

I find the craziest timelines are made by those who lack a coherent methodological approach to the timeline, instead theorizing for theorizing's sake. Instead of observing all of the facts and events of the timeline within the context of the games themselves, they selectively pick and choose those aspects they deem most important, whether out of ignorance of the concept of viewing all evidence in light of context (both that of the game and its development) or in spite of it.

This is why we get such outlandish placements, such as LA following MM, the Oracles being in separate timelines, or ALttP going in between OoT and TWW (though this one seems to be gaining popularity, for some bizarre reason). Some people have no concept of a timeline that makes logical and practical sense, instead choosing to ignore the most obvious flaws and incongruities and thus forging placements based on completely myopic interpretations.

#267 ganonlord6000

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 04:30 PM

ALttP going in between OoT and TWW (though this one seems to be gaining popularity, for some bizarre reason). Some people

I might be able to explain this. That idea is probably gaining popularity because of OcarinaHero10's timeline (can someone tell that idiot to shut up?). That guy doesn't even deserve to be a timeline theorist mostly because he believes that he has the correct timeline when he is far from it.

Edited by ganonlord6000, 16 September 2009 - 04:32 PM.


#268 SOAP

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 03:36 AM

Where the heck do people come up with this stuff? I swear, Zelda Universe and Youtube have the worst theorizers.

The second one was good up until the third part. Four timelines? What the heck? Doesn't he undertand the concept of a stable time loop?

I know. I wonder why he has a timeline for each time Link traveled through time in OOT when he was traveling back and forth on a single timeline. He didn't even come up with splits like that for OOA when Link went back in time and I think that Link traveled back in time lots more times in OOA than in OOT. Youtube is full of idiots.


Also OOA had Link traveling through a span of 500 years instead of seven. He was affecting things in the distant past and depending on far this guy places non-direct sequels apart from each other, OOA should have more effect on the timeline than OoT.

I actually like this theory (up until he started putting up the game & watch games his logic for TMC's placement based on geography is silly considering Hyrule looks just like it does in ALttP by the time FSA happens. Geography doesn't matter anymore. Or at least it's not something you can build a sound theory on.

I don't mind the idea of four timelines though. Though he doesn't take a few things into consideration like Beast Ganon being depicted on the satin glass (which shouldn't be if TWW takes place in a timeline that continues on without Link with a still human Ganondorf. And the Statue of OoT Link being too young? It's just the art style but it clear as day it's maent to be adult Link from OoT. ALttP would fit more in a timeline without Link. With enough Sages awakened, and the Knights of Hyrule sacrificing themselves in Link's place, it sets things up perfectly for the Sealing War. Also if the adult portion of OoT can continue on without Link shouldn't the child portions too? If so then there should be at least 8 timelines.

It's not a bad idea. It just needs a lot more work.

Edited by SOAP, 17 September 2009 - 03:48 AM.


#269 Person

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 03:58 PM

The depiction of Beast Ganon in the stained glass window looks like a mix between his OoT and ALttP designs. The Beast Ganon/Human Ganondorf dichotomy is really just something fans latched on to when Nintendo doesn't really care. In the 3D games, he can change back and forth at will, and no significance is given to what form he's in. He's shown as a beast in the TWW prologue, but it doesn't affect anything.

#270 ganonlord6000

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 04:42 PM

http://www.zeldauniv...for-2009-a.html

Look at what is wrong with this. Another bozo who thinks that he has the correct timeline.

I keep getting into stupid arguements with that idiot on youtube regarding if TMC is a prequel to FS and FSA or not when it is obvious that it is. I am tempted to get a lot of youtube theorists as well as people frm other sites to kick him out of the Zelda timeline community. Even my old timeline makes more sense that that guy's timeline.

Edited by ganonlord6000, 21 September 2009 - 04:53 PM.





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