818 replies to this topic

[Person]

Exactly how bad is the IGN board? Like, is there a topic you can show which demonstrates that level of idiocy? I mean, if GameFAQs has decent timeline topics, IGN can't be that terrible, can it?

Before you read this thread, keep in mind that the member named Volvagia_slayer is supposed to be IGN's main Zelda "intellectual".

http://boards.ign.co...81048805/p1/?20

Owwww... My brain got hurted.

It makes the most sense to me that TP Ganondorf is a different Ganondorf altogether than OoT/TWW Ganondorf. After all, Nintendo said TP takes place at least 100 years after OoT, which would mean a new male Gerudo had been born during that time period. So while OoT Ganondorf was in the Sacred Realm, TP Ganondorf was trying to take over Hyrule before being imprisoned in the Twilight Realm.

No no no no nononononononononononono... Make it stop, mommy!

OoT/TWW Ganondorf was the relatively unknown king of the Gerudo who wanted to get the Triforce to be able to take over Hyrule because he hated the desert and the life it brought. He infiltrated the Hylian Royal Family by swearing allegiance to the king. He attacked Hyrule Castle and got the Triforce of Power. He became known as the King of Evil once he had taken over and continued searching for the missing pieces of the Triforce he didn't get.

TP Ganondorf was widely known throughout Hyrule as an evil demon thief. He wanted to take over the Sacred Realm so he got together a band of thieves and invaded Hyrule, but he was captured and thrown into the Twilight Realm. He then formed a bond with Zant in order to escape the realm and merge light and shadow to create darkness. He tried to stop Midna, whom he viewed as his biggest threat (he had obviously never heard of Link or any other hero for that matter, despite the fact that the legends of the Hero of Time were being spread throughout Hyrule at this time). He took on the title Dark Lord, and never sought any piece of the Triforce.

But...how...the ToP...in the cutscene...

That's not all Nintendo said. In addition they said that even though Link told Zelda, they decided to tell no one else and they decided to do nothing. Then Ganondorf went and did something horrible causing him to be captured and sent to the Arbiter's Grounds to be executed.

But he's...making...stuff...up!

However, even with all of this evidence that TWW fits in the child timeline, TWW Ganondorf remembers fighting the Hero of Time, something that only happened in the adult timeline... TWW's back story tells the tale of the Hero of Time fighting OoT Ganon which took place in the adult timeline... TWW logically has to follow both the adult AND child timelines. That can only happen if they're both the same timeline... something that is only possible with the single timeline.

Find a happy place, find a happy place, find a happy place!

Not necessarily. If there has ever only been one Master Sword, I totally agree with you. However, the Master Sword in ALttP seems to have a different origin story than the Master Sword we see in OoT, TP, and TWW. We know very little about the earlier Master Sword, but ALttP's Master Sword was supposedly forged in a time AFTER Ganon had already been trapped in the Dark World and had started sending evil minions out of the realm and into Hyrule. The sages created the sword but couldn't find anyone who had the physical or spiritual strength to wield the sword, so they hid it away in the forest. A seal was then placed on the Dark World so that Ganon couldn't escape the Dark World and no more of his minions could easily escape it. According to this story it seems as if ALttP Link was the very first person to wield this Master Sword, and if that's the case, ALttP could very easily take place after TWW. (Top that off with the rumored fact that ST takes place in an unflooded land at least a century after PH, and there still remains the possibility of Old Hyrule unflooding and someone being able to reclaim the original Master Sword.)

ARGH! NoA ALttP manual is a no-go! Bad! Bad!

Hey Average Gamer, when you debate with these cretins, do you ever post links to the Japanese Translation topic here that disprove their stupid theories? I think I can see something in common with these bad theorizers. One guy posts in a topic explaining his theory in every detail. The casual players don't think to double-check him and just go along, pointing newbies to his theory as the best one. That's what happened at ZU with the United Wise Men and all of the sheeple blindly following them.

EDIT: Well, I was browsing over at IGN, and everybody there apparently thinks Zelda Wii is another OoT sequel because of Link's hair.

EDIT AGAIN: I found a web archive of TMSword.com (the site I mentioned earlier) and found this tibit of "information." Notice that nothing in this theory is based on canon, it's based on the ALttP comic book and the cartoon show. Here's again where he threw around dates like how OoT was "60-80" years before ALttP.

Edited by Person, 10 June 2009 - 11:17 PM.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Exactly how bad is the IGN board? Like, is there a topic you can show which demonstrates that level of idiocy? I mean, if GameFAQs has decent timeline topics, IGN can't be that terrible, can it?

Before you read this thread, keep in mind that the member named Volvagia_slayer is supposed to be IGN's main Zelda "intellectual".

http://boards.ign.co...81048805/p1/?20

I read several of his posts... There two main things I disagreed with on his timeline.
1.)How could the Master Sword & Four Sword appear later on, if they were at the bottom of the ocean/ had been washed away.
2.)Though his theory about TP's Ganondorf being different from OoT's Ganondorf was technically possible, it is highly unlikely.

So yeah, AG I think you should go with Person's idea and disprove them.

Edited by Sir Turtlelot, 12 June 2009 - 04:49 PM.

[Average Gamer]

Hey Average Gamer, when you debate with these cretins, do you ever post links to the Japanese Translation topic here that disprove their stupid theories?

I'm not a member on IGN. I've never really been interested in the site and it doesn't load smoothly on my computer.

EDIT: Well, I was browsing over at IGN, and everybody there apparently thinks Zelda Wii is another OoT sequel because of Link's hair.

I noticed that too. The IGN boards are bad for theorizing and even seemingly for discussing the actual games, seeing as how they're sickeningly obsessed with Majora's Mask at the moment and mainly insult the other games. They've even violated their own "change the theme/game" rule in their general thread title by making three MM ones in a row.

[Person]

Oh, this is rich. Apparently, Ganon never got the Triforce of Power in TP, even though we clearly saw him get it.

Because it isn't the Triforce of Power. The Triforce doesn't seem to be physically present in TP (I believe the only time the ACTUAL Triforce appears in TP is in the Lanayru cutscene). We are told throughout the game that the Triforce marks on the hands of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf merely mark them as those "chosen by the gods"; it is never stated to actually be the Triforce. The mark doesn't necessarily mean they have the Triforce either. The whole Triforce symbol glows when its powers are being activated in TP which is unlike what happened in OoT and TWW (in OoT and TWW, only the piece of Triforce that the person has is ever lit up, but in TP, sometimes the piece for each person will glow, sometimes the mark will disappear completely, and when the mark-bearer is actually using some sort of power, the entire mark glows). When Link entered the Twilight Realm, the Courage piece lit up on his hand, but when he was transforming into a wolf, the whole thing lit up and then dimmed out completely when he fell unconscious. When Ganondorf was being "executed" the Power portion lit up on his hand, but as he's freeing himself from the chains, the whole symbol is lit up. When he gets stabbed at the end of the game by Link, it dims out completely. Since we're told the marks only show Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf to be "chosen by the gods" throughout the entire game and are never called "the Triforce" (plus the fact that all of the "pieces" in the mark glow at some time or another and not necessarily just when the characters are with the others that have the marks), it seems that this mark was just given to those who were aligned with each portion of the Triforce and a portion of the goddesses' powers were bestowed upon those with the mark.

That's right. Nobody had the Triforce in TP! Apparently, the Triforce and the power of the gods are totally separate things.

I think Volvagia_slayer is an even worse negationist than Lex.

[Duke Serkol]

I still consider that a plausible possibility, so I guess that makes me too worse than Lex

[Person]

I still consider that a plausible possibility, so I guess that makes me too worse than Lex

What exactly makes it plausible? Ganon survives being stabbed through the gut how? Without the Triforce, it would have killed him. In the ending he loses it and dies after being stabbed through the gut again.

[Duke Serkol]

He received the power of the Gods to be sure. I'm just saying that while it is represented by the Triforce crest on his hand, it might not actually be the Triforce (much like Link in Oracles, who uses his mark to scare away monsters and apparently talk to animals).
Or it could be that he has a connection to the Triforce's power but doesn't actually physically have it. That's the theory I most inclined towards anyway.

[Person]

He received the power of the Gods to be sure. I'm just saying that while it is represented by the Triforce crest on his hand, it might not actually be the Triforce (much like Link in Oracles, who uses his mark to scare away monsters and apparently talk to animals).
Or it could be that he has a connection to the Triforce's power but doesn't actually physically have it. That's the theory I most inclined towards anyway.

It's pretty obvious that it's the Triforce, though. Oracles Link doesn't gain any special power from his mark, it's just a symbol. Ganon's lets him survive an execution and transform into Beast Ganon. It's typical TP style to mention things without making them explicit. The developers seem to be assuming that you the player would already have knowledge of the Zelda mythos by having played previous games. It's like if a Star Wars comic showed someone using the Force but never said that the character was using the Force. You would still know that he was using the Force because you would have learned about it from watching the movies. It's like how in TP numerous references are made to OoT Link, but nobody mentions any specifics of his adventure. It's because you were supposed to know who they were talking about already. So even though we see the Triforce, it's never called that, but the player knows what it is from having played OoT and TWW.

[Duke Serkol]

Oracles Link doesn't gain any special power from his mark

Apart from the ones I just mentioned

like Link in Oracles, who uses his mark to scare away monsters and apparently talk to animals

It's typical TP style to mention things without making them explicit.

Are there other things TP mentions without making explicit?
Personally, I'd be rather clueless as to why they chose not to use the most popular term in the series if the Triforce is in fact in the game. Unless the idea is that the Triforce is in the game, but it returns from whence it came and there remains no record of it (you know, for the timeline's sake).

It's like how in TP numerous references are made to OoT Link, but nobody mentions any specifics of his adventure.

Actually, they do mention some of his deeds... and they don't quite add up with what we know from OoT (which makes sense since OoT's adult part was in another timeline)

So even though we see the Triforce, it's never called that, but the player knows what it is from having played OoT and TWW.

But doesn't that raise the question: why now? Why didn't they do that in TWW? They went through the trouble of making up a distorted name to symbolize the loss of knowledge due to the flood, they could have gotten away never using the proper name, just calling it the power of the gods, like in TP. Why do so in TP, a game that is relatively close to OoT with no cataclysms inbetween?

[Person]

First of all, Oracles Link doesn't get the power to talk to animals from his mark. It goes unexplained, and we're just supposed to assume that these animals could always talk. I mean, Kiki the monkey could talk with no special powers involved. The marks on the hands of Link and Ganon in TP are identical to ones in OoT. Why should we assume that they are any different? The mark from Oracles doesn't glow, meaning that Link doesn't actually possess the Triforce. In TP, it does. The mark of Oracles doesn't grant power, it just marks Link as a messenger from Hyrule.
As for the difference in terminology, TWW and TP are very different in tone and purpose. TWW makes numerous explicit references to OoT, whereas TP is a mostly unrelated story set sometime afterward. The difference in style is the main reason for it. The Sacred Realm is also never explicitly mentioned, but we're supposed to assume it. Likewise the nod to ALTTP in the credits.

[Ikiosho]

The mark from Oracles doesn't glow, meaning that Link doesn't actually possess the Triforce.

Well, considering that the game doesn't show his hand all that well, it's not like you can tell.

But it is true, since you see the Triforce in its physical triangle form (though not together) in a resting place in the intro to the game.

Edited by Ikiosho, 13 June 2009 - 10:18 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, considering that the game doesn't show his hand all that well, it's not like you can tell.

In cutscenes, you do.

First of all, Oracles Link doesn't get the power to talk to animals from his mark. It goes unexplained, and we're just supposed to assume that these animals could always talk. I mean, Kiki the monkey could talk with no special powers involved.

I'm pretty sure one of the animals commented something to the like of "Wow, you can understand me? You must be the Hero!"

Even if not, the mark still gives him powers like the one in AoL, such as opening sealed doors.

[Duke Serkol]

First of all, Oracles Link doesn't get the power to talk to animals from his mark. It goes unexplained, and we're just supposed to assume that these animals could always talk. I mean, Kiki the monkey could talk with no special powers involved.

I'm pretty sure one of the animals commented something to the like of "Wow, you can understand me? You must be the Hero!"

MPS to the rescue! Also Kiki lived in the Dark World. Maybe it wasn't even an actual monkey (much like those things you talk to in caves are unlikely to be actual squids).

The marks on the hands of Link and Ganon in TP are identical to ones in OoT. Why should we assume that they are any different?

Because they are apparently treated differently (Ganon receives his out of nowhere and similarly loses it, doesn't seem to care to get the other two, no one calls it Triforce etc.)

The mark from Oracles doesn't glow

Uh, yes it does. Check Ages' ending again (or was it the combined ending? Can't remember).

The mark of Oracles doesn't grant power, it just marks Link as a messenger from Hyrule.

I already responded to this. If you want to do like a certain someone and just repeat your statements ignoring the replies they get that's ok with me, but I am not going to post the same reply again (and I'm sorry if this sounded harsh, but I am the one whose answer has been ignored here).

And it's not just me, MPS too agrees:

Even if not, the mark still gives him powers like the one in AoL, such as opening sealed doors.

But moving on...

As for the difference in terminology, TWW and TP are very different in tone and purpose. TWW makes numerous explicit references to OoT, whereas TP is a mostly unrelated story set sometime afterward.

Unrelated except for the fact that the whole set up for the game (Ganondorf beinf banished in the Twilight Realm) results from the events of OoT? Or that the game actually replicates the adult part of OoT for the child timeline in many ways (just consider the frozen Zoras)?
I don't really see how TP is any less related to OoT than TWW was.

The difference in style is the main reason for it. The Sacred Realm is also never explicitly mentioned, but we're supposed to assume it.

But it was, a remarkable number of times though. Or at least, the name is used, but it seems to be used in reference to Hyrule rather than the other dimension featured in OoT and ALttP (granted, it could be that it was once part of Hyrule and TP is referencing to it back then, but good luck proving this).
In fact this could be the exact opposite to the case you are making for the Triforce. You say the Triforce is in the game even though it's never called by its proper name. The Sacred Realm instead is a name used in the game, but the Sacred Realm as we knew it in previous games may not be featured in TP.

[Fin]

My thoughts of TP were that the actual Triforce was used, but for timeline purposes it doesn't really matter as it returns to the sacred realm at the end of the game anyway.

As for why it's never mentioned by name, I think the story's main focus was on the Twili. The typical Link/Zelda/Ganon was used as a framing device to tell a new story, so it wasn't all that important to go into detail about what the power of the gods was. All that mattered was that the main three were chosen ones.

But that's just my opinion. <.<

[Duke Serkol]

My thoughts of TP were that the actual Triforce was used, but for timeline purposes it doesn't really matter as it returns to the sacred realm at the end of the game anyway.

As for why it's never mentioned by name

That is certainly possible, yes.

I think the story's main focus was on the Twili. The typical Link/Zelda/Ganon was used as a framing device to tell a new story

If that's what they meant to do, they failed pretty badly, since in the end Midna and the Fused Shadow are swiftly removed from the equation as Ganondorf goes supersayajin and blows she up with the castle, thereby re-establishing that the typical Link/Zelda/Ganon is all that mattered in the end... and I'm more than willing to blame Miyamoto's stupid table uphendings for that.

[Fin]

Hey, I never said they succeeded at doing what I think they were going for. But come on, that ending did feel pretty disjointed from the rest of the story.

[Average Gamer]

Also Kiki lived in the Dark World. Maybe it wasn't even an actual monkey (much like those things you talk to in caves are unlikely to be actual squids).

However, Kiki actually calls himself a monkey, and in the Japanese script Kiki wasn't even his name; it was just a sound he made. Furthermore, the Palace of Darkness not only had gorillas on its exterior, but we've seen talking monkeys before in the series. Kiki probably was a monkey.

Because they are apparently treated differently (Ganon receives his out of nowhere and similarly loses it, doesn't seem to care to get the other two, no one calls it Triforce etc.)

Ganon losing his mark in the end was probably due to the Master Sword being left in his scar, a wound that was exploitable throughout the entire battle. Also, the pieces blatantly gave the characters significant powers, going beyond mere "open a door/read a scroll" stuff. Additionally, one part of the Triforce mark was brighter than the other parts for each character. Finally, Ganondorf does seem to remotely care about/notice the other pieces, seeing as how he looks up at Zelda's body when he makes his "Power that those chosen by the gods wield," line.

[Duke Serkol]

However, Kiki actually calls himself a monkey, and in the Japanese script Kiki wasn't even his name; it was just a sound he made. Furthermore, the Palace of Darkness not only had gorillas on its exterior, but we've seen talking monkeys before in the series. Kiki probably was a monkey.

Mh, good calls. Monkeys might be special since we could talk to them in MM too (yet strangely not in TP. Not without being a wolf anyway).

the pieces blatantly gave the characters significant powers, going beyond mere "open a door/read a scroll" stuff.

Yeah, because the ToC did so much for Link in OoT...

Additionally, one part of the Triforce mark was brighter than the other parts for each character.

Interestingly, Link and Zelda seem to ahve the same tringle lit up. Probably a mistake.
At any rate, it could be that each of them received power from a different Goddess.

Finally, Ganondorf does seem to remotely care about/notice the other pieces, seeing as how he looks up at Zelda's body when he makes his "Power that those chosen by the gods wield," line.

But he isn't obsessed with getting it. He managed to get the Triforce out of a collapsed Zelda in TWW, I imagine he would be able to do so with a possessed Zelda.

[Average Gamer]

Yeah, because the ToC did so much for Link in OoT...

The Triforce of Power made Ganondorf into an immortal Daimaou in OoT. In TP, The ToC turns Link into a wolf. This is not mere "read a scroll" stuff.

At any rate, it could be that each of them received power from a different Goddess.

I doubt it. One part of a Triforce mark being brighter than the other parts has always indicated that a person possesses a piece of the Triforce corresponding with which mark is the brightest.

But he isn't obsessed with getting it. He managed to get the Triforce out of a collapsed Zelda in TWW, I imagine he would be able to do so with a possessed Zelda.

Remember, in TWW Ganondorf waited until he had defeated Link before he tried to take the Triforce pieces away from the chosen ones.

[Duke Serkol]

Yeah, because the ToC did so much for Link in OoT...

The Triforce of Power made Ganondorf into an immortal Daimaou in OoT. In TP, The ToC turns Link into a wolf. This is not mere "read a scroll" stuff.

Doesn't change the fact that in Oot the ToC did for Link LESS than "read a scroll" stuff.

I doubt it. One part of a Triforce mark being brighter than the other parts has always indicated that a person possesses a piece of the Triforce corresponding with which mark is the brightest.

Doubt it you may, I'm not trying to state anything for a fact.

Remember, in TWW Ganondorf waited until he had defeated Link before he tried to take the Triforce pieces away from the chosen ones.

Mh, that's true... maybe there is some non-written rule about how to get a Triforce part out of someone without killing them.
At any rate, I must insist that to me, Ganondorf didn't really seem concerned with getting the Triforce. He could have said something like his speeches in OoT/TWW, such as "I'll take the divine power that was granted to you and add it to my own!" but he just just didn't seem to care... or think/consider that this could be done.
And then of course there's the main issue from which this whole debate comes, the status of the ToP after TP.


But seriously guys... when I said I consider it possible that the Triforce was not physically in TP, I didn't mean to utterly derail this poor topic :\

Edited by Duke Serkol, 14 June 2009 - 09:12 PM.

[Average Gamer]

Doesn't change the fact that in Oot the ToC did for Link LESS than "read a scroll" stuff.

Presumably because he didn't need any real help from it in OoT. TP Link, on the other hand, was transformed into a wolf by it.

At any rate, I must insist that to me, Ganondorf didn't really seem concerned with getting the Triforce. He could have said something like his speeches in OoT/TWW, such as "I'll take the divine power that was granted to you and add it to my own!" but he just just didn't seem to care... or think/consider that this could be done.

I don't think that it really needed to be said. Zelda was as good as dead and Link was already there, not to mention that Midna was mainly trying to confront Ganondorf in the speech.

And then of course there's the main issue from which this whole debate comes, the status of the ToP after TP.

It presumably just returned to the Sacred Realm at the end of TP.

[CID Farwin]

It presumably just returned to the Sacred Realm at the end of TP.

presumably, based on....?

Ganon losing his mark in the end was probably due to the Master Sword being left in his scar, a wound that was exploitable throughout the entire battle.

Now this is something I haven't thought about, but makes sense, since the Master Sword was made to counteract somebody Evil getting the Triforce.

But then again there is the obvious implication (given the rest of the scene) that he died.

[Fin]

Am I the only person who thinks the goddesses simply returned all the Triforce pieces to the sacred realm, now that the chosen ones have acted out the little drama they staged?

Granted, you have to follow the divine prank idea for that to work, but that's how I always saw it.

Edited by Fintin O'Brien, 15 June 2009 - 02:20 AM.

[Average Gamer]

presumably, based on....?

The Triforce of Power left Ganondorf and the Sacred Realm appears to be the natural resting place of the Triforce.

But then again there is the obvious implication (given the rest of the scene) that he died.

I know. The point I was trying to make is that, due to the Master Sword being rammed through Ganondorf's exploitable scar wound, the Master Sword was somehow able to separate Ganondorf from the ToP.

[Duke Serkol]

Presumably because he didn't need any real help from it in OoT. TP Link, on the other hand, was transformed into a wolf by it.

Then maybe he did not need much help in Oracles either.

I don't think that it really needed to be said. Zelda was as good as dead and Link was already there

Circumstances not at all different from OoT and TWW (unless the Triforce wasn't actually there, or...)

It presumably just returned to the Sacred Realm at the end of TP.

Am I the only person who thinks the goddesses simply returned all the Triforce pieces to the sacred realm, now that the chosen ones have acted out the little drama they staged?

Granted, you have to follow the divine prank idea for that to work, but that's how I always saw it.

There are two scenarios are consider as the most likely, both of them based on the divine prank and the disapperence of Ganon's mark: one the characters do not actually have the Triforce parts (not physically) but are connected to them as they remain the Sacred Realm.
Two, they do have the Triforce parts, but because they were bestowed on them through this divine prank, they will immeditaely be taken back into the Sacred Realm by the Gods once the owner is defeated/killed. If Ganondorf is aware of this, that would explain why he does not attempt to get the other parts.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 15 June 2009 - 07:59 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

But he isn't obsessed with getting it. He managed to get the Triforce out of a collapsed Zelda in TWW, I imagine he would be able to do so with a possessed Zelda.

Zelda's soul was within Midna at the time, so I'd assume the Triforce of Wisdom went with her.

Also, this whole "The Triforce isn't actually in them, they just have the power" theory also struck me as total nonsense with no basis in anything.

[Duke Serkol]

Yeah we know, we debated it before.

[Average Gamer]

Then maybe he did not need much help in Oracles either.

The entire Triforce was in Hyrule Castle in the Oracle games, and Link's mark in those games was not brighter in one spot. We have no reason to believe that OoX Link had a Triforce piece, and we have blatant evidence that he didn't have a piece.

Circumstances not at all different from OoT and TWW

Midna's the one who was talking to Ganondorf and challenging him. Thus he only responded to her. He also mentioned the "Power that those chosen by the gods wield" when looking up at Zelda to boot.

one the characters do not actually have the Triforce parts (not physically) but are connected to them as they remain the Sacred Realm.

What's the reason for that though? If they have such a connection to their pieces, why don't they actually have their pieces? It doesn't make sense.

Edited by Average Gamer, 15 June 2009 - 06:26 PM.

[Person]

Okay, maybe it's time we get back on topic. All I wanted to prove was that TP Ganon and OoT Ganon are the same person. As for what happened to the Triforce after TP, I always assumed Ganon stole the rest of it during the Seal War, but that's off-topic.

[Duke Serkol]

You're right. Let's get back on topic.

I'll go get Picman (don't worry I'm just kidding )