325 replies to this topic

[MikePetersSucks]

OOT was taking the back-story of ALTTP and making it into a full story. So ALTTP made the story in which this fiction analyst would say is the most important. LOZ and ALTTP only share the story of Ganon/Link/Zelda, nothing more. So now you are the one picking straws.

Oh, like the Ganon/Link/Zelda thing isn't the core of the story anyway. The truth is that all Zelda games build off of each other, so it's ultimately stupid to try and argue for "THE Zelda game."

[Marty]

The following assumes that there is only one triforce and only one sacred realm that connects all timelines. When Link returned to the CT at the end of OoT, the triforce object remained in the AT and the triforce essence was carried into the CT.



Edit: my sig shows my thinking prior to this week.

Edited by Marty, 11 October 2008 - 06:17 PM.

[FDL]

Where are the other games?

[MikePetersSucks]

The following assumes that there is only one triforce and only one sacred realm that connects all timelines.

And that's where I stopped reading.

[SteveT]

My stance is and always has been The Triforce of Time Theory (TToTT).

It's far too complex and perfect for a simple diagram with pointy brackets. (Surely it's been long enough that someone here hasn't seen it.)

Edited by SteveT, 14 November 2008 - 11:55 PM.

[Impossible]

Oh god, that theory has even been updated with the newest games? I can't even comprehend it anymore.

[jacensolo06]

Oh, man, I haven't seen that theory since the newer games were added. It still remains the BEST THEORY EVER.

[SteveT]

Yeah, I was pretty happy that Nintendo made a point of not contradicting it.

Also, Masa has a screenshot somewhere from the Tingle RPG which totally proves TToTT.

[Crimson Lego]

I believe in mine.

[NM87]

My stance is and always has been The Triforce of Time Theory (TToTT).

It's far too complex and perfect for a simple diagram with pointy brackets. (Surely it's been long enough that someone here hasn't seen it.)

"Link realizes he is his own father"

What people can think of during their free time is beyond me.

[SteveT]

You're just jealous

[wring]

My stance is and always has been The Triforce of Time Theory (TToTT).

It's far too complex and perfect for a simple diagram with pointy brackets. (Surely it's been long enough that someone here hasn't seen it.)

"Link realizes he is his own father"

What people can think of during their free time is beyond me.

That means that Link did his mother!

It'd be hilarious if Nintendo reveals the official timeline, and it turns out to be that.

[Crimson Lego]

My stance is and always has been The Triforce of Time Theory (TToTT).

It's far too complex and perfect for a simple diagram with pointy brackets. (Surely it's been long enough that someone here hasn't seen it.)

"Link realizes he is his own father"

What people can think of during their free time is beyond me.

That means that Link did his mother!

It'd be hilarious if Nintendo reveals the official timeline, and it turns out to be that.

I'd be pretty shocked and reluctant to play new Zelda games.

[SteveT]

You're too late! Masa even has a screenshot from the Tingle RPG to prove it. (I'll have to ask him to dig it up.)

[wring]

I wouldn't know, I can't understand a single word on that whole page...

[Chaltab]

TMC-OOT-MM-TP-TWW-TPH-FS-FSA*-OOX-LA-ALTTP-KNS**-TRRL-LOZ-AOL

*The events of Ocarina of Time and FSA are "obscured by the mists of time and [made into] legend", eventually remembered as a single Imprisoning War.

**Provisionally canon, assuming nothing ever contradicts it.

What about the split?
The adult timeline ends with Ocarina of Time; no games take place in the adult timeline. Because the Master Sword and the Triforce of Courage are sent back in time alongside Link, they logically must be absent from the future Timeline. Thus, neither Twilight Princess or The Wind Waker can take place in the adult timeline.

Stained glass windows of the Adult Ocarina sages appeared in The Wind Waker.
There is nothing to prevent those six men and women from becoming sages in the child timeline as well. The sages of Ocarina of Time and the sages that exceucte Ganondorf in Twilight Princess are not the same sort of sage, just as the two sages of The Wind Waker are not replacements for any sages of Ocarina's temples, but sages of temples not depicted in that game.

Why are the Oracles and Link's Awakening before A Link to the Past?
I like the placement, mostly. The reasoning is that the ending scene of the Oracle series directly recalls the opening of Link' Awakening. Everything that Link encounters in the dream of the Wind Fish was also encountered in one or the other Oracle. Also, the official art of the Oracle games depicts a Link that could easily be a younger version of ALTTP Link.

But Zelda meets Link in Oracle and doesn't know him in A Link to the Past.
That's not completely clear, actually. When you arrive at Zelda's cell in A Link to the Past, Zelda immediately addresses you as Link and claims that she sensed you getting close. There's no introduction in this scene, so it stands to reason that Link and Zelda may have met before.

What about Sleeping Zelda and the Triforce of Courage?
I try not to think about that one, honestly.

[MikePetersSucks]

Because the Master Sword and the Triforce of Courage are sent back in time alongside Link, they logically must be absent from the future Timeline.

Says who? Especially given that OOT Link's time travel is purely spiritual, and you'd need to explain two Master Swords and two ToC's in the Child Timeline.

What about Sleeping Zelda and the Triforce of Courage?
I try not to think about that one, honestly.

Laziness.

Also, how do you rectify TP and TWW being in the same timeline? Especially when they've been called parallels?

[Impossible]

Because the Master Sword and the Triforce of Courage are sent back in time alongside Link

But they're not. TWW tells us what happens to the ToC, and Link doesn't have the Master Sword when he goes back in time. So that's just completely false. Aonuma specifically stated that TWW was made to follow the adult ending, no amount of scepticism towards creator quotes can change the explicit nature of that game's intent and events.

And the LOL-worthiness of TP-TWW has been thoroughly pointed out enough times.

This isn't the topic to be debating this, though, so I'll let it go.

Edited by Impossible, 17 December 2008 - 03:17 AM.

[Chaltab]

But they're not. TWW tells us what happens to the ToC...

TWW tells us what happens to the Triforce of Courage when Link goes to Termina. When he goes back in time, he clearly takes it with him. It's seen glowing in his hand in the child-timeline ending of Ocarina.

...and Link doesn't have the Master Sword when he goes back in time.

Look at 9:07.

Says who? Especially given that OOT Link's time travel is purely spiritual, and you'd need to explain two Master Swords and two ToC's in the Child Timeline.

Spiritual though his time travel may be, Link still takes items with him when traveling back in time. There are not two ToCs and two Master Swords because the timeline split occurs after they'd been moved. Zelda being back at the Castle and still having the Ocarina, even though the Door of Time is open and Link has the Triforce of Courage, is an oddity of continuity no matter how you look at it.

[MikePetersSucks]

TWW tells us what happens to the Triforce of Courage when Link goes to Termina. When he goes back in time, he clearly takes it with him. It's seen glowing in his hand in the child-timeline ending of Ocarina.

The Child Timeline Triforce split too, genius.

Look at 9:07.

Oh wow, you proved that Link also pulled the Master Sword in the child timeline. Stunning.

Spiritual though his time travel may be, Link still takes items with him when traveling back in time.

Gameplay mechanics, since the functionality of the items isn't consistent across time travel. Some items come, some don't.

here are not two ToCs and two Master Swords because the timeline split occurs after they'd been moved.

Do you really need to be told why this doesn't work at all?

Zelda being back at the Castle and still having the Ocarina, even though the Door of Time is open and Link has the Triforce of Courage, is an oddity of continuity no matter how you look at it.

Who the hell says Zelda still has the Ocarina? Yea, there's the MM flashback, but maybe she took it back from him, since it was a royal heirloom.

[Arturo]

TWW tells us what happens to the Triforce of Courage when Link goes to Termina. When he goes back in time, he clearly takes it with him. It's seen glowing in his hand in the child-timeline ending of Ocarina.

Actually, taht's what the American version says, but not what the original Japanese (and Spanish, French, German and Italian) said. Because, according to TWW, Link lost the Triforce of Courage because he travelled through time. Sounds familiar, huh?

[Chaltab]

MikePetersSucks: if you're willing to be civil, I'll debate you, but if you're going to be an ass, don't expect a response.

TWW tells us what happens to the Triforce of Courage when Link goes to Termina. When he goes back in time, he clearly takes it with him. It's seen glowing in his hand in the child-timeline ending of Ocarina.

Actually, taht's what the American version says, but not what the original Japanese (and Spanish, French, German and Italian) said. Because, according to TWW, Link lost the Triforce of Courage because he travelled through time. Sounds familiar, huh?

What, only the Japanese version counts?

Even so...

It was called the Triforce of Courage. It is said that when the Hero of Time traveled through time and left Hyrule, he was separated from the source of being a hero and the Triforce of Courage turned into 8 fragments and scattered throughout the land...

He traveled through time and left Hyrule before the Triforce of courage was fragmented. Just going back in time didn't cut it.

Edited by Chaltab, 17 December 2008 - 11:32 PM.

[Impossible]

But they're not. TWW tells us what happens to the ToC...

TWW tells us what happens to the Triforce of Courage when Link goes to Termina. When he goes back in time, he clearly takes it with him. It's seen glowing in his hand in the child-timeline ending of Ocarina.

False. Read the translations from the Japanese version, and the Hylian intro text - both refer to Link leaving Hyrule by going through time.

The Triforce mark on Link's hand has been established many times to not require actual possession. The same thing happens at the end of TWW, after the Triforce pieces are separated from their owners. It's NOT on his hand before Link goes to Termina in MM.

...and Link doesn't have the Master Sword when he goes back in time.

Look at 9:07.

What on earth do you think you're seeing? Link appears back in the Temple of Time, the Master Sword is ALREADY there, because he went back to before drawing it - that was the entire point of the ending, he goes back to that time when the Master Sword is still in the pedestal so that none of those events happen. If he'd brought back the MS with him, there would be two Master Swords. There's no contradiction here, TWW occurs exactly as it always officially has.

[Chaltab]

But they're not. TWW tells us what happens to the ToC...

TWW tells us what happens to the Triforce of Courage when Link goes to Termina. When he goes back in time, he clearly takes it with him. It's seen glowing in his hand in the child-timeline ending of Ocarina.

False. Read the translations from the Japanese version, and the Hylian intro text - both refer to Link leaving Hyrule by going through time.

I just quoted the Japanese version that clarified he left Hyrule. He certainly didn't leave Hyrule when he went back in time. The only time the Hero of Time leaves Hyrule is 1) when he's in the Sacred Realm and 2) when he's in Termina.

The Triforce mark on Link's hand has been established many times to not require actual possession. The same thing happens at the end of TWW, after the Triforce pieces are separated from their owners. It's NOT on his hand before Link goes to Termina in MM.

Granted that the mark isn't necessarily indicative of possession. However, what other reason would the developers take the time to apply it to his hand if they weren't trying to indicate possession? Furthermore, it works the other way too. Link had the Triforce of Courage for most of Ocarina of time without the mark appearing there. Just because it isn't visible doesn't mean it is not inside him.

What on earth do you think you're seeing? Link appears back in the Temple of Time, the Master Sword is ALREADY there, because he went back to before drawing it - that was the entire point of the ending, he goes back to that time when the Master Sword is still in the pedestal so that none of those events happen.

The point at which Link arrived in the past is conjecture; the Master Sword, as best I can tell, is pedestal because Link put it there to seal the timelines off from each other. Link has it in his scabbard when Future Zelda sends him back in time, so unless his Adult Body and the Sword stay in the future, the sword goes back with him. I think it's safe to say that what Zelda does to Link at the end is rather different than Link's spiritual time travel through most of the game, since it creates an alternate time line rather than changing the existing one.

If he'd brought back the MS with him, there would be two Master Swords.

Not if he arrived after the sword was sealed in the Sacred Realm for seven years.

[MikePetersSucks]

I just quoted the Japanese version that clarified he left Hyrule. He certainly didn't leave Hyrule when he went back in time. The only time the Hero of Time leaves Hyrule is 1) when he's in the Sacred Realm and 2) when he's in Termina.

Or alternatively, he left the Adult Timeline's Hyrule. Oooooh.

The point at which Link arrived in the past is conjecture; the Master Sword, as best I can tell, is pedestal because Link put it there to seal the timelines off from each other. Link has it in his scabbard when Future Zelda sends him back in time, so unless his Adult Body and the Sword stay in the future, the sword goes back with him. I think it's safe to say that what Zelda does to Link at the end is rather different than Link's spiritual time travel through most of the game, since it creates an alternate time line rather than changing the existing one.

1) He could've just gone back in time without taking his possessions with him. Maybe the fact that he was carrying the Master Sword was why a new pedestal had to be made in Hyrule Castle?

2) I never got the implication that the Time Travel was any different. The timeline seems to split because time travel stopped.

3) I interpret the point of arrival as being after all the child Timeline portions. No part of the Child Era was "overwritten."

Not if he arrived after the sword was sealed in the Sacred Realm for seven years.

Either way, there are ontological paradoxes way up the anus.

[Arturo]

I just quoted the Japanese version that clarified he left Hyrule. He certainly didn't leave Hyrule when he went back in time. The only time the Hero of Time leaves Hyrule is 1) when he's in the Sacred Realm and 2) when he's in Termina.

From the point of view of some random person at the Adult Timeline, Link left Hyrule at the end of OoT. And he left it through time travel. And this hasn't happened anywhere else at OoT or MM.

So please, don't twist the games to fit an outdated timeline...

[Impossible]

I'd appreciate it if you didn't lie. Combining Jumbie's correction with the translation:

It was called the Triforce of Courage. It is said that when the Hero of Time left Hyrule traveling through time, he was separated from the source of being a hero and the Triforce of Courage turned into 8 fragments and scattered throughout the land.

As I already pointed out, it's clear that Link left the Adult Timeline by travelling through time. You also ignored the fact that Aonuma has officially placed TWW on the Adult Timeline, once in 2002 and again in 2007.

I like how all your theories are true only if you presuppose that... your own theories are true. When did Link EVER still have the Master Sword after going back in time? If he went back to before drawing it, why the hell would he still have it? And he has the Triforce mark as a symbol of his fate, that's as good an explanation as is really needed, because Nintendo made NO attempt to reinforce the presence of the ToC in any other scene in OoT's ending or MM's opening.

Edited by Impossible, 18 December 2008 - 04:58 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

And he has the Triforce mark as a symbol of his fate, that's as good an explanation as is really needed, because Nintendo made NO attempt to reinforce the presence of the ToC in any other scene in OoT's ending or MM's opening.

Well, they did in TP. I also don't find this particular argument very convincing - for one, it wasn't made a big deal about in OoT because it wasn't shown (for dramatic effect?) until the very last scene. And, of course, it wasn't relevant in MM.

It doesn't change the fact that Chaltab is wrong, by any means, but certainly there are other valid interpretations of that scene.

[Chaltab]

Aonuma's placement has no bearing on my own. I don't care about his timeline placements or anyone else's. I'm attempting to create a single timeline that satisfies my desire to avoid splitting, without any major logical fallacies.

What Aonuma said has no bearing whatsoever on my timeline.

It was called the Triforce of Courage. It is said that when the Hero of Time left Hyrule traveling through time, he was separated from the source of being a hero and the Triforce of Courage turned into 8 fragments and scattered throughout the land.

That's not the translation I found, but if that is accurate then it would imply that Wind Waker falls in the adult timeline.

[Raien]

Aonuma's placement has no bearing on my own. I don't care about his timeline placements or anyone else's. I'm attempting to create a single timeline that satisfies my desire to avoid splitting, without any major logical fallacies.

How do you expect a timeline discussion to be proactive to your goals if you debate on a forum where everyone else has different goals (in this case to know the writers' timeline)? You can't expect other people to work with your interpretations of the text unless you can get them to work with your goals. This is from my own experience of debating the Resident Evil timeline; you simply cannot get people to debate with different goals in mind. It doesn't work on a fundamental level.

True, you didn't begin the debate, but you felt the need to justify your interpretation of the evidence in such a manner that it came across as a challenge of accepted understanding. You didn't explain your different goals until this very last post.

Edited by Raian, 19 December 2008 - 05:12 PM.