325 replies to this topic

[Fin]

Yeah, that makes sense.

I thought you were saying that the original story would override the final story. Guess I shouldn't be so quick to leap to conclusions.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Meh, I don't really care how they tie up FSA's Ganon as long as they do.

As for evidence of FSA-ALttP:

1) Kakariko thieves seem to have fled to the Lost Woods, where they reside in ALttP (already explained)

2) Magical powers of various groups in Hyrule said to be in decline over time; maidens are shown with strong powers in FSA, while ALttP says that the descendants of the sages "do not have strong powers anymore"

3) Structures shared between FSA and ALttP appear to be much more intact in FSA

4) It seems highly improbable that FSA would feature a special group of Knights after ALttP already established that Link was the last of the Knights' blood

5) In FSA, "Lake Hylia" is to the north, in close proximity to the waterfall, and a forested area appears where ALttP's lake would be, south of FSA's lake (we see this same setup in TMC); it seems unlikely that the lake's position would retreat between aLttP and FSA[/TMC]

6) Shadow Link's role in the game, as well as Ganon's sealing in the Four Sword, may have purposely borrowed from ALttP's extra dungeon, and could possibly explain the extra dungeon's significance whereas previously it was unexplained

The trident doesn't really point either way, as its inclusion could have shown how ALttP Ganon obtained it or depicted Ganon's restoration after ALttP (or any other game with the trident for that matter). I personally see the trident's connection to the title "King of Darkness" as significant and hypothesize that its connection to a "demon revived from ancient times" (one possible interpretation) probably refers to OoX, in which Ganon, who was previously referred to as the "great demon king" (his title in LoZ, OoT, TWW, and TP) declares himself the "king of darkness" in a similar fashion as FSA's Ganon. The fact that FSA is a sequel to another of Capcom's games, in my opinion, supports this as well. However, I am aware that I give these events meanings that others may not subscribe to.

[NM87]

We don't know how successful his attempt was, and it's irrelevant because he was inevitably captured and thrown in the slammer anyway. No matter the case with respect to his progress, his efforts were thwarted. We can say nothing about his conquest from TP's description aside from his objective and the fact that it took place.

Last we left Ganondorf he was searching for the entrance to the SR. If TP states that his efforts were thwarted, then we have no choice but to believe that his search had ended, not assume he had entered the SR and make up more to the story than what we know for a fact.

It seems to be implied that the thieves from ALttP are among those from Blind's hideout, whereas it also seems to be implied in FSA that the same thieves emerged in Kakariko Village during the chaos sown by Ganon in that game and fled/were exiled to the Lost Woods sometime thereafter. I see no reason why the former should be obsolete due to the latter; it was clearly a reference to ALttP's Lost Woods thieves no matter the case.

Are you able to prove this? As far as I am concerned, Kakariko was burned down in FSA.

Not even the Hyrule of old, necessarily, as it only resembles the old Hyrule in passing. Swamps appear that were not around in OoT (or TP), new forests spring up, new temples are built, Lake Hylia seems to have "reset" in the 2D games, etc.

I am no geologist, but I could care less about the placement of swamps and forests, both of which are subject to change every few hundred years.

Well, that's not entirely true, given that OoT came before the whole lot of them (and, as you said, that LoZ can predate FSA as well).

OOT Ganon is only relevant to games occurring in the same reality as OOT Ganon.

1) Kakariko thieves seem to have fled to the Lost Woods, where they reside in ALttP (already explained)

2) Magical powers of various groups in Hyrule said to be in decline over time; maidens are shown with strong powers in FSA, while ALttP says that the descendants of the sages "do not have strong powers anymore"

3) Structures shared between FSA and ALttP appear to be much more intact in FSA

5) In FSA, "Lake Hylia" is to the north, in close proximity to the waterfall, and a forested area appears where ALttP's lake would be, south of FSA's lake (we see this same setup in TMC); it seems unlikely that the lake's position would retreat between aLttP and FSA[/TMC]

6) Shadow Link's role in the game, as well as Ganon's sealing in the Four Sword, may have purposely borrowed from ALttP's extra dungeon, and could possibly explain the extra dungeon's significance whereas previously it was unexplained

This is all relative.

4) It seems highly improbable that FSA would feature a special group of Knights after ALttP already established that Link was the last of the Knights' blood

They could be different knights.

Edited by NM87, 29 January 2009 - 03:55 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Last we left Ganondorf he was searching for the entrance to the SR.

Not actually. Last time we actually saw Ganondorf in OoT he had gotten inside and stolen the Triforce. We never hear if things were different than this on the child timeline, because he has the Triforce of Power just like in OoT.

If TP states that his efforts were thwarted, then we have no choice but to believe that his search had ended, not assume he had entered the SR and make up more to the story than what we know for a fact.

Au contraire. TP shows he has the Triforce, so we have no choice but to believe his search was successful, not assume a deus ex machina and make up more to the story than what we know for a fact.

Are you able to prove this? As far as I am concerned, Kakariko was burned down in FSA.

Which is why it was shown in the ending credits, of course.

I am no geologist, but I could care less about the placement of swamps and forests, both of which are subject to change every few hundred years.

Swamps are by and large a product of flooding; forests are supposedly central to the reunion of the islands according to the Deku Tree. I'd say both are relevant.

They could be different knights.

Aonuma cited a number of changes in FSA, many of which we know had to do with ALttP references based on removed text found in the text dump, that were made to make the game's story less confusing.

[NM87]

Not actually. Last time we actually saw Ganondorf in OoT he had gotten inside and stolen the Triforce. We never hear if things were different than this on the child timeline, because he has the Triforce of Power just like in OoT.

No, read what Impossible said about the ending of OOT. Link never pulled the sword from the stone.

Au contraire. TP shows he has the Triforce, so we have no choice but to believe his search was successful, not assume a deus ex machina and make up more to the story than what we know for a fact.

Using this logic, its also an assumption that he obtained the Triforce since we are never shown that properly. Its more of an assumption to make up what isn't shown rather than interpret what is.

Which is why it was shown in the ending credits, of course.

Actually you guys are right about this, I have to give you credit for noticing. This piece of evidence seems more plausible now, yet I still believe they could be different, as with recurring themes and characters being a big part of Zelda mythos.

Swamps are by and large a product of flooding; forests are supposedly central to the reunion of the islands according to the Deku Tree. I'd say both are relevant.

Nah.

Aonuma cited a number of changes in FSA, many of which we know had to do with ALttP references based on removed text found in the text dump, that were made to make the game's story less confusing.

It was removed for good reason. Different Knight's, thieves, etc. seems to be a plausible theory.

[Fin]

Au contraire. TP shows he has the Triforce, so we have no choice but to believe his search was successful, not assume a deus ex machina and make up more to the story than what we know for a fact.

Well, TP never really gives us any explanation as to how he got the Triforce beyond the Sages "by some divine prank." Of course, this is just from their point of view, but I do find it notable that we're never given an alternative in-game. I'd also note that Ganon himself seems just as surprised as the Sages that he has the Triforce, but I'll admit that's all down to interpretation.

Incidentally, deus ex machina means "god out of the machine", but I think this argument is more for gods in the machine. (Feel free to disregard this paragraph; I just felt like being a prat.)

Swamps are by and large a product of flooding; forests are supposedly central to the reunion of the islands according to the Deku Tree. I'd say both are relevant.

The swamps in FSA were stated to be a product of the corruption of the land, I believe (as was "frozen Hyrule"). But that aside, has the geography ever been relevant? Given how much landmarks jump around the map between games I don't think they can really be relied upon for a theory.

[MikePetersSucks]

No, read what Impossible said about the ending of OOT. Link never pulled the sword from the stone.

Impossible isn't more credible than anyone else on this forum, and just as many people say Link did.

Well, TP never really gives us any explanation as to how he got the Triforce beyond the Sages "by some divine prank." Of course, this is just from their point of view, but I do find it notable that we're never given an alternative in-game. I'd also note that Ganon himself seems just as surprised as the Sages that he has the Triforce, but I'll admit that's all down to interpretation.

Because the Triforce was never really all that important to TP's story. It was all about the Twilight; the Triforce's involvement is only a plot device to create Wolf Link and add the drama involving Zelda's sacrifice. How it got there is unimportant, and Nintendo probably intended for us to assume the usual method of a Triforce split and such. And these Sages seem surprisingly ignorant and unreliable, so I wouldn't take their word just because Ganondorf (who didn't seem surprised, imo) kicked their asses.

[Impossible]

Well, TP never really gives us any explanation as to how he got the Triforce beyond the Sages "by some divine prank." Of course, this is just from their point of view, but I do find it notable that we're never given an alternative in-game. I'd also note that Ganon himself seems just as surprised as the Sages that he has the Triforce, but I'll admit that's all down to interpretation.

This is just the thing, though. Assuming Ganondorf received the Triforce by accident is the more natural, less speculative path, because that's actually what the game says and shows. Ganondorf sure as hell wouldn't have JUST realised he had the ToP when he was as good as dead if he had already taken it personally from the SR. Everyone knows that this is nonsense. Also, TP DOES contain an explanation of why this happened, in the removed dying lines from Ganondorf.

Impossible isn't more credible than anyone else on this forum, and just as many people say Link did.

But OoT's ending disagrees with those people.

On the removed content from FSA, to clarify, I mean that by knowing what was originally intended for the story, we may be able to better explain some of the mysteries in the final story we received. It wouldn't replace actual events, but it might help clarify them so we can better understand where FSA was being placed in the timeline - because it's VERY unlikely that this was changed at the end.

[Fin]

Well, TP never really gives us any explanation as to how he got the Triforce beyond the Sages "by some divine prank." Of course, this is just from their point of view, but I do find it notable that we're never given an alternative in-game. I'd also note that Ganon himself seems just as surprised as the Sages that he has the Triforce, but I'll admit that's all down to interpretation.

This is just the thing, though. Assuming Ganondorf received the Triforce by accident is the more natural, less speculative path, because that's actually what the game says and shows. Ganondorf sure as hell wouldn't have JUST realised he had the ToP when he was as good as dead if he had already taken it personally from the SR. Everyone knows that this is nonsense. Also, TP DOES contain an explanation of why this happened, in the removed dying lines from Ganondorf.

I was arguing the very point you're defending, so no need to convince me of anything. Thanks for the additional points though. I'll need to read up on them thar removed lines.

[Impossible]

I know, I was agreeing with you, and backing up the point because you didn't seem entirely sure of it.

I guess the removed lines can be found, er, somewhere on this board. >_< Actually, if I get off my ass (while still sitting down, even) and bother to look, I have links to a lot of the translations on my computer, and I can tell you that it's right here.

[Fin]

Thanks again, but I actually found it myself after posting.

[MikePetersSucks]

This is just the thing, though. Assuming Ganondorf received the Triforce by accident is the more natural, less speculative path, because that's actually what the game says and shows. Ganondorf sure as hell wouldn't have JUST realised he had the ToP when he was as good as dead if he had already taken it personally from the SR. Everyone knows that this is nonsense. Also, TP DOES contain an explanation of why this happened, in the removed dying lines from Ganondorf.

1) I never got the impression that Ganondorf just realized he had it. He seemed way too cocky and the first thing I thought was "He totally fooled them."

2) What removed dying lines? Refresh my memory.

But OoT's ending disagrees with those people.

I disagree with that interpretation of the ending.

[Impossible]

1) I never got the impression that Ganondorf just realized he had it. He seemed way too cocky and the first thing I thought was "He totally fooled them."

"I could have escaped days ago, but instead I let myself almost get killed with a stab in the chest which, for all I know, could have had the power to actually kill me! It might have been smarter to kill them all before they stabbed me, but it just didn't occur to me. Also, I did this right in front of the only entrance to another world, while sages were standing there with the ability to seal me if anything went wrong! Sure, I could have escaped somewhere more convenient, but I thought I'd trap myself with six sages first." I know he was overconfident, but come on. That really only extends to him getting captured. Ganondorf seems to have a moment of "realising" that he's still alive and that the ToP has activated. He waited until then to break free, which would be a pretty stupid time if he had a choice, or at least if he knew he did. Also, there's no goddamn way the sages wouldn't know if Ganondorf had the ToP when they captured him. Remember, Link told Zelda everything that happened, which would have included the Triforce splitting, and all three of them would know if the Triforce had split, and hence know that Ganondorf had it.

2) What removed dying lines? Refresh my memory.

Just linked to them.

As I've pointed out to Lex before, if Zelda didn't send Link back to before the Master Sword was ever drawn, the entire thing was completely pointless, as the idea was to prevent these events from ever being able to happen by stopping Ganondorf from entering the SR. And when Link appears in the Temple of Time, the MS is already sitting in its pedestal.

Edited by Impossible, 31 January 2009 - 05:37 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

if Zelda didn't send Link back to before the Master Sword was ever drawn, the entire thing was completely pointless, as the idea was to prevent these events from ever being able to happen by stopping Ganondorf from entering the SR. And when Link appears in the Temple of Time, the MS is already sitting in its pedestal.

1) Stopping Ganondorf from entering the SR isn't necessary to prevent him from taking over Hyrule, for one, and it may not have even been possible (if it were, why not do so from the start?).

2) The MS is always in its pedestal every time Link returns to the past, no?

Of course, this is just from their point of view, but I do find it notable that we're never given an alternative in-game.

"By some divine prank" really only indicates that it was ironic, and we already knew that Ganondorf's acquisition of the Triforce in OoT was the result of some serious irony. I find it notable that TP never indicated a different scenario.

[Arturo]

but then how do you explain that he got captured and didn't use the ToP until the very end?

[Impossible]

1) Stopping Ganondorf from entering the SR isn't necessary to prevent him from taking over Hyrule, for one, and it may not have even been possible (if it were, why not do so from the start?).

But you're completely proving my point. The entirety of OoT's events were completely pointless if Link could have gone back to the point you claim he did at the end, and prevented it from there, even though I fail to see how increased readiness for the ToP would have changed the fact that he had the ToP. He could have done that at any time without defeating Ganondorf or saving Zelda. The only way OoT makes any sense at all is if Link went back to a time he COULDN'T go to until the end of the game. In other words, Zelda had to send him further back in order to actually prevent those events and GUARANTEE a safe childhood (which your ridiculous idea doesn't).

2) The MS is always in its pedestal every time Link returns to the past, no?

Yes, but Link PUTS the MS in the pedestal every other time. You're not acknowledging the fact that the time travel at the end of OoT is clearly different to the other times in OoT. Zelda chose when to send him back to, so why the hell would she send him back when it was probably already too late? The ENTIRE POINT was to stop Ganondorf from getting the Triforce. When Link appears in the Temple of Time, the MS has not yet been drawn. Otherwise, Zelda, the sages and Ganondorf are all fucking morons for behaving the way they did. Even if what you're saying is true, everyone would know that Ganondorf has the ToP. They wouldn't call it a surprise, or a divine prank, or underestimating Ganondorf. They know the power of the Triforce.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Zelda's action didn't change the fact that he had the ToP no matter how you slice it, apparently, so I don't see how arguing that "they wanted to prevent him from getting it" is really an effective argument.

The only way OoT makes any sense at all is if Link went back to a time he COULDN'T go to until the end of the game.

Well, to be honest, nothing stopped him from going back that way earlier.

In other words, Zelda had to send him further back in order to actually prevent those events and GUARANTEE a safe childhood (which your ridiculous idea doesn't).

He got the Triforce anyway in any case, didn't he?

Yes, but Link PUTS the MS in the pedestal every other time. You're not acknowledging the fact that the time travel at the end of OoT is clearly different to the other times in OoT. Zelda chose when to send him back to, so why the hell would she send him back when it was probably already too late? The ENTIRE POINT was to stop Ganondorf from getting the Triforce. When Link appears in the Temple of Time, the MS has not yet been drawn. Otherwise, Zelda, the sages and Ganondorf are all fucking morons for behaving the way they did. Even if what you're saying is true, everyone would know that Ganondorf has the ToP. They wouldn't call it a surprise, or a divine prank, or underestimating Ganondorf. They know the power of the Triforce.

1) Link putting the MS back doesn't mean jack, to be honest.
2) The only immediate difference I see is that Zelda sent him back, really.
3) We don't really know what exactly Zelda meant by undoing her mistake. Her only vocal concern is giving Link back the years he lost. Hyrule was already saved anyway.
4) Zelda sends Link back to "close the road between times" and one of the steps he must take to do this is to close the Door of Time, so I think it's implicit that he has pulled the Master Sword, and so closing the Door of Time will seal off the future that had already transpired. (what do you think about what she means by that, MPS?)
5) The sages say outright that they were morons for behaving the way they did, so that's not an issue.
6) Even in the Adult timeline Zelda underestimated Ganondorf, leaving him for dead atop the tower when he managed to survive with the Triforce. The sages do the same thing in TP's backstory. Nice try, though.
7) In my opinion, the "divine prank" is that Link and Zelda, though trying to stop Ganondorf, played right into his hands. Since I believe this happened on both timelines, that's what the sages are talking about.

but then how do you explain that he got captured and didn't use the ToP until the very end?

I don't think having the Triforce of Power makes him uncapturable or uncontainable (heck, OoT and TWW showed us that this is not the case). I think that the sages believed he was dead and he took the opportunity to strike.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 31 January 2009 - 09:04 PM.

[Impossible]

Zelda's action didn't change the fact that he had the ToP no matter how you slice it, apparently, so I don't see how arguing that "they wanted to prevent him from getting it" is really an effective argument.

He got the Triforce anyway in any case, didn't he?

What the hell is this crap? Your argument only works if it's already assumed to be true, or if Link and Zelda could see the future and magically knew what was going to happen and made no attempt to prevent it anyway. Knowing your logic, I'm guessing it's the "argument that is only supported by itself" one. Great work! Except Ganondorf received the Triforce later, and Link and Zelda aren't magical fortune tellers who could see into the future and know that would happen. You're suggesting that because Ganondorf was going to get the ToP anyway, which they didn't know, they must have taken no precautions to prevent him from entering the Sacred Realm? The ENTIRE POINT was to stop that from ever happening and send Link back to live in a Hyrule where they had never let Ganon into the SR or let him touch the Triforce.

Well, to be honest, nothing stopped him from going back that way earlier.

What are you talking about? Link could only go back to when the Master Sword took him, until he saved Zelda, who explicitly states that she can use her powers to send him back to before it ever happened. That completely answers everything you're questioning. As far as I can see, everything you say only exposes the lack of logic in your own argument.

[Lexxi Aileron]

You're suggesting that because Ganondorf was going to get the ToP anyway, which they didn't know, they must have taken no precautions to prevent him from entering the Sacred Realm?

No. I'm suggesting that Nintendo isn't going to have Zelda send Link back in time to stop Ganondorf from getting the Triforce only to have Ganondorf once again get the Triforce anyway through a deus ex machina.

What are you talking about? Link could only go back to when the Master Sword took him, until he saved Zelda

Zelda could have sent him back at any time.

who explicitly states that she can use her powers to send him back to before it ever happened.

"If you want to return to your original time, return the Master Sword to the Pedestal of Time."
"Link, give the Ocarina to me...As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it."

What's your point?

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 01 February 2009 - 12:21 AM.

[NM87]

Zelda could have sent him back at any time.

Link had to save Hyrule first, she couldn't reveal her true identity, etc..

"If you want to return to your original time, return the Master Sword to the Pedestal of Time."
"Link, give the Ocarina to me...As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it."

What's your point?

...Zelda is sending Link back, Link isn't using the "road between times".

[Fin]

Sorry to divert the topic momentarily, but it's Fintin.

I don't think having the Triforce of Power makes him uncapturable or uncontainable (heck, OoT and TWW showed us that this is not the case). I think that the sages believed he was dead and he took the opportunity to strike.

Soo... after getting stabbed provided a better oppurtunity than any time before then?

No. I'm suggesting that Nintendo isn't going to have Zelda send Link back in time to stop Ganondorf from getting the Triforce only to have Ganondorf once again get the Triforce anyway through a deus ex machina.

The connection between OoT and TP isn't a plot in itself, so I don't really think a deus ex machina really ruins anything. Besides, TP takes as part of its premise that Ganon got the Triforce through a deus ex machina. Hell, his conceit that's he's one of the chosen ones is a pretty important part of the story's theme!

[Impossible]

Ugh, your logic is just... WHO CARES? THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED. GANONDORF DID OBTAIN THE TOP DESPITE ATTEMPTS TO STOP IT. The fact is that events still took a completely different direction.

Anyway, since I did just say that thing about FSA...

http://www.zeldauniv...-bits-text.html

SHIT. I am so pissed off right now. I suspected this from the quote mentioning sages, but combining it with all these other quotes I didn't know about adds some validity to my suspicions. FSA was meant to be the new Imprisoning War. It heavily hints at being on the Child Timeline (the Hylian language is dying out, but not lost as in TWW), and at having the involvement of sages and the REAL Dark World (the Sacred Realm). There's a good chance it would have further extended the strong evidence connecting the Master Sword/Temple of Time/Lost Woods through OoT-TP-ALttP, as the Master Sword was apparently supposed to play a role. And I do so love that MS thing already, having the MS in the Forest of Light would have perfected it and the entire COST. MS + Ganon + sages + Sacred Realm (=> Triforce)... Yeah, this was supposed to be the IW. Ugh, WHY did they have to go and screw it up? Maybe it would have been too complex to understand for people not familiar with ALttP, but it's stupid.

Of course, just the fact that this stuff was in there adds an insane amount of credibility to the placement of FSA, ALttP, etc. in the Child Timeline, because even without FSA's original story, it sounds like they were probably treating the timeline in that way. Yeah, yeah, it's not canon, but it sure is removing any reason to doubt the idea that the classic game placements were retconned as of TWW. As well as the IW now being a separate, unique event on the Child Timeline. FSA was supposed to fix the problems caused by TWW, which would have been awesome, but now we're stuck with the problems and Nintendo will ignore them. I have always said that FSA, along with TP, represent one side of Nintendo's effort to establish a new placement for the classic games (stemming off ALttP), while TWW and ALttP GBA are on the other side in how they de-emphasise the old connections and make the original placement redundant. And apparently, FSA was supposed to do that more than I realised. OoT could no longer be the IW because TWW made it impossible, so it would be the new IW, consistent with ALttP GBA... Coincidentally, that was the game with the first FS on the cartridge. (And the Palace of the Four Sword? OH. Well, with FS/FSA-ALttP confirmed, that would be very interesting.)

It makes perfect sense, of course, because TP wasn't out at the time - that means FSA would have been Ganon's very first Child Timeline appearance and sealing, and hence that timeline's Imprisoning War. I always knew that the sealing in the Four Sword was a cop-out resulting from the upended tea table crap, but it sounds like it was a quick fix because they removed the originally intended SR/DW aspect. I mean, wouldn't that be the logical explanation of why they ended it in such a weird way? They suddenly contradicted ALttP after spending the whole game preceding it. If Ganon had gotten the Triforce as well as the Trident, and if all this removed stuff had been kept in, we would have the IW in its entirety. Can't believe I didn't see this - it's even got the Knights of Hyrule being killed off! So many leftover elements (which is probably why the FSA = IW theory has existed for so long, people noticed those same things), and now this reveals that virtually everything from the IW was meant to be in FSA... I just wish it had been the IW, which seems to have been intended, not the crappy story we got. This just sounds like it would have been an awesome story, both for timeline reasons and as an homage to ALttP - which it already was in so many respects.

This just adds another reason to the list of why we need a sequel to FSA and why I hate everyone who didn't buy it. If I'm not making sense, just read Erimgard's explanation, because I think he's got it.

Edit: Some of the ZU guys are still obsessed with the Miyamoto timeline. Can someone please link them to the topic I made?

Edited by Impossible, 01 February 2009 - 08:24 AM.

[canas is back]

So you hate me??

1) Link putting the MS back doesn't mean jack, to be honest.
2) The only immediate difference I see is that Zelda sent him back, really.
3) We don't really know what exactly Zelda meant by undoing her mistake. Her only vocal concern is giving Link back the years he lost. Hyrule was already saved anyway.
4) Zelda sends Link back to "close the road between times" and one of the steps he must take to do this is to close the Door of Time, so I think it's implicit that he has pulled the Master Sword, and so closing the Door of Time will seal off the future that had already transpired. (what do you think about what she means by that, MPS?)
7) In my opinion, the "divine prank" is that Link and Zelda, though trying to stop Ganondorf, played right into his hands. Since I believe this happened on both timelines, that's what the sages are talking about.

If you listened to ganondorf when link pulls out the MS, he said something to the effect of "thank you for pulling out the master sword, the last thing keeping me from the sacred realm", so zelda returning link to the time right before he pulled out the MS would have "prevented" the entire future that he had experienced, and the divine prak could have been caused by something entirely different.

[Raien]

Edit: Some of the ZU guys are still obsessed with the Miyamoto timeline. Can someone please link them to the topic I made?

I might as well, since I still have an active account.

EDIT: Done.

Edited by Raien, 01 February 2009 - 08:54 AM.

[Impossible]

Thought: Someone needs to find these quotes in the Japanese text dump. It's unlikely for something to have affected one of these particular lines, but you never know - remember that TP's removed ending has a couple of important differences in Japanese. Jumbie has actually already translated the lines about the sages. At the time, I didn't think just a mention of sages was enough to state anything definitively about what was removed from FSA, but I think we have enough now to make an accurate judgement.

Edited by Impossible, 01 February 2009 - 09:21 AM.

[Impossible]

It occurred to me that checking FSA's text dump myself, especially in the areas of it that contain removed text, might reveal even more things... Let's see what I can find. If it doesn't seem to be anywhere in the script on GameFAQs, I'll list it here.

I promise I will make that fiend regret what he has done!

No idea what this is out of context...

Really? So another day passes, and Hylian slips slowly into obscurity...

There's actually a chunk of dialogue surrounding a Hylian language mini-game, this is the only line other than the one in the ZU topic that I think matters. Honestly, I have NO idea why this was removed, it could have been here without the IW story and it sounds like it would have been useful to us years ago in our treatment of FSA. It appears to be from the Village of the Blue Maiden.

I've seen a few other things, but nothing else story-relevant so far...

[Raien]

I wouldn't be surprised if this language mini-game did something similar to the character-recognition that killed Tetra's Trackers; it would explain its removal.

Edited by Raien, 01 February 2009 - 09:51 AM.

[NM87]

So...proving that FSA was originally intended to precede ALTTP, only to be changed sometime during its development to contradict ALTTP, only seems to me that they intended to sever their original intentions of FSA as a prequel to ALTTP.

Edited by NM87, 01 February 2009 - 02:38 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

"I could have escaped days ago, but instead I let myself almost get killed with a stab in the chest which, for all I know, could have had the power to actually kill me! It might have been smarter to kill them all before they stabbed me, but it just didn't occur to me. Also, I did this right in front of the only entrance to another world, while sages were standing there with the ability to seal me if anything went wrong! Sure, I could have escaped somewhere more convenient, but I thought I'd trap myself with six sages first." I know he was overconfident, but come on. That really only extends to him getting captured. Ganondorf seems to have a moment of "realising" that he's still alive and that the ToP has activated. He waited until then to break free, which would be a pretty stupid time if he had a choice, or at least if he knew he did. Also, there's no goddamn way the sages wouldn't know if Ganondorf had the ToP when they captured him. Remember, Link told Zelda everything that happened, which would have included the Triforce splitting, and all three of them would know if the Triforce had split, and hence know that Ganondorf had it.

Alright, that's reasonable. So what, pray tell, causes Ganondorf to gain the ToP at that moment, according to you? It's a mess following everyone's theories.

4) Zelda sends Link back to "close the road between times" and one of the steps he must take to do this is to close the Door of Time, so I think it's implicit that he has pulled the Master Sword, and so closing the Door of Time will seal off the future that had already transpired. (what do you think about what she means by that, MPS?)

She's being part-metaphorical, part literal. The only person who walks the road between times is Link, so to close it, he simply has to not pull the sword again and walk away. No metaphysical magic has to necessarily take place for her statement.

SHIT. I am so pissed off right now. I suspected this from the quote mentioning sages, but combining it with all these other quotes I didn't know about adds some validity to my suspicions. FSA was meant to be the new Imprisoning War. It heavily hints at being on the Child Timeline (the Hylian language is dying out, but not lost as in TWW), and at having the involvement of sages and the REAL Dark World (the Sacred Realm). There's a good chance it would have further extended the strong evidence connecting the Master Sword/Temple of Time/Lost Woods through OoT-TP-ALttP, as the Master Sword was apparently supposed to play a role. And I do so love that MS thing already, having the MS in the Forest of Light would have perfected it and the entire COST. MS + Ganon + sages + Sacred Realm (=> Triforce)... Yeah, this was supposed to be the IW. Ugh, WHY did they have to go and screw it up? Maybe it would have been too complex to understand for people not familiar with ALttP, but it's stupid.

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[NM87]

So what, pray tell, causes Ganondorf to gain the ToP at that moment, according to you? It's a mess following everyone's theories.

A Divine Prank.