325 replies to this topic

[Sir Turtlelot]

Timeline discussion is dead because everyone (except the Lex-negationists) has got the official timeline more-or-less worked out. And this time, all the original ambiguous quotations have been given precise translations.

There are really only two things left on the agenda (which we can't explain due to a lack of information):
1) Connecting ALttP to OoT.
2) Placing the FS trilogy.

Well with Spirit Tracks on the way, and a new Wii title, supposedly in the next few years, we should have some new material to work with soon, hopefully.

As for the other two items, OoT & ALttP have seemed to of lost connection, but there still are some left. TP did make a connection possibility with the location of the Master Sword, showing how it went from the ToT to the Lost Woods.

The FS trilogy was a pain to place, or at least I thought it was, since they don't seem to make many connections outside of themselves. They were the last things I placed on my timeline.

[Impossible]

The specific point of the topic was for us all to explain where we stood on the Zelda timeline.

It was in a more specific context than that, read the first post. And, again, it's a six month old context. If we're evaluating the timeline now, shouldn't a new topic be made?

I was just about to bring that up earlier today (buut I was too lazy). The Storyline section has been very dead lately. It's this very kind of attitude that kills it. Just because it's an old thread, if new faces come over and want to discuss it, and there's people who are willing to participate as well, why complain about it?

...Er, my suggestion is to make new topics so that we don't have ancient ones on the first page, which would also prevent posting in them from not being considered be necroposting just because there's so little activity. It does seem like stuff never gets discussed unless I make a topic about it, sometimes. >_> And I don't make many topics. I shall be making a topic soon, but for another reason. *wink wink nudge nudge* I just think this would be a far better discussion as a new topic than as a 10 page one nobody wants to go read through now. Then it might attract some attention. Particularly as we're not talking about the same thing, really.

[Psytronic]

TP doesn't give a shit and kind of just ignores the other games as best as possible.

Are you are that there's plenty of evidence of TP linking OOT and LTTP?

No, there isn't. Anything you'd like to think is just a fan's imaginings based on similarities in observations. I'm assuming you were trying to say "Are you aware?".

[Impossible]

Yes, an identical depiction of a vital plot device that serves as a deliberate story segue between two games is just an "imagining".

Not sure what else MPS has in mind, though...

Edited by Impossible, 08 April 2009 - 09:01 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

TP doesn't give a shit and kind of just ignores the other games as best as possible.

Are you are that there's plenty of evidence of TP linking OOT and LTTP?

No, there isn't. Anything you'd like to think is just a fan's imaginings based on similarities in observations. I'm assuming you were trying to say "Are you aware?".

Lol. Oh, the ignorance.

And yes, I meant Aware. This keyboard has sticky keys, and I usually don't immediately notice my typos for the reason of English not being my first (or even second) language.

[Psytronic]

Yes, an identical depiction of a vital plot device that serves as a deliberate story segue between two games is just an "imagining".

Not sure what else MPS has in mind, though...

Death mountain then directly links Ocarina of Time to LoZ. Spectacle Rock directly links LoZ to Link's Awakening. Or they're just games in similar worlds with vague references to one another.

When, in OoT's Temple of Time, did you happen to notice any stairs? Or hundreds of gohmas? Does anyone recall that LttP's maidens were the descendants of the Imprisoning War's "wise men", while TP's "sages" are inhuman? I mean, in the face of how many inconsistencies does one persist to believe in loose connections?

Unless you're talking about something other than the temple. Which has conveniently relocated itself from the center of Hyrule town to the Lost Woods. Which pretty much has a third of the map separating it from Death Mountain? People are always willing to discount huge map differences, while Zelda II's overworld actually contains LoZ's map. I had always assumed LttP to be possibly thousands of years before LoZ to explain the inconsistencies in landscape, but I've essentially given up on the landscape of the Zelda series ever being coherent again.

Edited by Psytronic, 08 April 2009 - 11:26 PM.

[Impossible]

Oh god, I haven't read a post that missed the point so utterly and completely outside of ZU in a while, so excuse my reaction here.

Death mountain then directly links Ocarina of Time to LoZ. Spectacle Rock directly links LoZ to Link's Awakening. Or they're just games in similar worlds with vague references to one another.

Uh, what?

1. It's completely valid to say that OoT and ALttP especially, as well as FSA and LoZ, all occur in the same Hyrule and that one of the reasons for this is the shared landmarks like Death Mountain. So you're defeating your own point.
2. LA is only my favourite game ever, so what would I know, but I'm quite certain it didn't specifically give any place the name Spectacle Rock, although there's a likely reference to it. Pretty stupid to use LA as your example when LA is a dream world including elements of ALttP which is in the same world as LoZ, and when Spectacle Rock is a common recurring element simply as a reference, not anything else.
3. And using that kind of reference misses the point entirely as it's not a plot detail, so you're basically responding with a non-sequitur. Nothing you've said relates to or counters the example given.
4. Locations are not critical plot devices that are highly relevant to the main story and timeline. The Master Sword has perfect and deliberate cohesiveness from OoT to TP to ALttP, as well as the forest around it having similarly perfect cohesiveness from TP to FSA to ALttP. On the other hand, the Adult Timeline utterly crushes any hope of explaining how the Master Sword could appear again - it's the only game to put it somewhere else. When a whole bunch of games show something a particular way in a particular place, and the one which is known for certain to be on another timeline changes that to completely disrupt any coherent timeline, what are we meant to assume?

When, in OoT's Temple of Time, did you happen to notice any stairs? Or hundreds of gohmas? Does anyone recall that LttP's maidens were the descendants of the Imprisoning War's "wise men", while TP's "sages" are inhuman? I mean, in the face of how many inconsistencies does one persist to believe in loose connections?

...Oh wow, you really don't know anything, do you? Could you not be an arrogant asshole when you're arguing from ignorance, please?

- This Temple of Time idea is fucking ridiculous. Ignoring the fact that it's known to be the same place - one added an entire dungeon accessible from the temple, the other game didn't have the dungeon. What the hell are you asking them to do? Not make the game they want to make just to please your twisted ideas of what constitutes consistency? Are you trying to argue that TP isn't after OoT on the Child Timeline now, or are you just going to factually lie, against what's stated in the game, and pretend that the Temple of Time isn't the Temple of Time? Yeah, I bet that's really what they intended for us to perceive. They threw in a location with the exact same name and exact same design as one from a game everyone has played, as well as telling us it dated back to the early days of Hyrule and demonstrating this via time travel... only so we would assume it's a different place because they added content to it and a portal of sorts which was not ever accessible in OoT (for many obvious reasons).
- "Wise men" is a mistranslation. As everyone has known for, well, ever. It's sages in the GBA version and in the SNES retranslation that's been available on ZL (you know, the site these forums are for) for years.
- TP's sages are inhuman? This is news to me. Have you played TP? They may not ever die of old age, but they're pretty damn human.
- All of these points are continued non-sequiturs as they're arguing the exact opposite goddamn type of argument. We're talking about deliberate similarities, not things that are represented in marginally different ways over the years BECAUSE IT'S A VIDEO GAME, FOR GOD'S SAKE, WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT GET. Okay, calming down now, but this is goddamn ridiculous. Stupid things that ensure that every game tells its own story and is not exactly the same are the complete opposite of arguing on the basis of, not loose connections, but major, deliberate, obvious connections.

Unless you're talking about something other than the temple. Which has conveniently relocated itself from the center of Hyrule town to the Lost Woods. Which pretty much has a third of the map separating it from Death Mountain?

Are you serious? This isn't a geography argument. Don't magically turn it into a geography argument. TP also has an "Old Kakariko" which is miles away from Death Mountain. The temple didn't fucking relocate itself, it's shown to be in the same place by the events of the story and the time travel aspect. The castle is in a different place, is that hard for you to wrap your head around?

[Psytronic]

Yep, that's me, the arrogant asshole. Thanks for recognizing me. I suppose you're the pinnacle of maturity yourself, eh?

Death Mountain jumping around the map from Ocarina to LoZ doesn't irk you in the least? Why is geography so unimportant? It didn't seem like a problem in the least for AoL to include LoZ's map in its overworld. Personally, I think the temple in question just leaping halfway across the map into the lost woods presents a problem for continuity.

Oh right, sure, I'll just imagine a completely restructured temple of time is the exact same one. That works, of course. Why didn't I think of that? Yeah, I guess I'm just being a huge arrogant asshole in suggesting that OoT's Temple of Time was just a bit lacking in the same dimension.

And the "sages" (yes, I prefer wise men in LttP, I consider it mostly synonymous anyway) are obviously in possession of floating, disembodied faces and hands. I mean, I don't see that as a common trait among humans. Maybe you're used to that, I'm not especially. Here's a clip for reference: (spoilers) (/spoilers)

Did it ever occur to you that they might've just as easily stuck the Master Sword in a Temple of Time for the sake of reference?

Of course the Death Mountain comment wasn't meant to make much of an argument. The point being that I happen to take things as they are given to me. Death Mountain as a name could mean any mountain. There happens to be a history of having a mountain, particularily one named Death Mountain, in Zelda. There's also the tradition of having a hero named Link, despite him obviously being different in appearance and coming from a different background. Am I to assume that every time the name reappears that he is the same Link? No, that would be foolish, especially if he is different in person and background. Am I to assume that he is therefore a different Link every time I see him? No, that would be equally foolish.

If you are seeing a connection there, it is because you want to. Unless someone comes right out and announces there used to be a castle there, I don't see a reason to assume the royal family felt it necessary or feasible to move an entire fortress and city halfway across their kingdom. In your argument, the Temple of Time seems to have no problem leaving a few remains behind. What about the rest of the city? There's literally nothing left of it, but this one building is fine? Well, I suppose they could have rebuilt it. But, what's to stop them from having rebuilt it in a different location? Well, that's all great, no problem with that! Unfortunately, this means it is not the same temple. If it is a new temple, it is not a direct linking plot point between the three games.

Personally, I tend to think it is more likely the developers wanted to make a nod towards both Ocarina and LttP. If they have a backstory for the location, they have not delivered it in any manner that I am aware of.



On the subject of arrogance, I find it extremely arrogant of Zelda fans overall that they consider any changes made outside of the original dev team to hold no merit in a game. I play a game in its entirety as it is given to me, I do not pine for an alternate or more accurate translation. Perhaps you do not consider the translated game to be your preferred installment of the series, but I have no problem with translations from NoA as I see their products as authorised products of Nintendo.

Edited by Psytronic, 09 April 2009 - 09:36 AM.

[Impossible]

You know what? If you're not going to listen to a goddamn thing I say, I give up. You're making up these unreasonable, irrational expectations that really don't mean anything. Geography's significance is variable, as similarities can be created deliberately, but an inconsistency means shit all when it's just for the sake of making the game world different, not a rehash.

The Temple of Time is the same place. It dates back to the beginning of Hyrule in both OoT and TP. It looks identical in both OoT and TP (and you're forgetting the circumstances surrounding the stairs). It even has a fucking Door of Time or "Time Door" (Hylian) in both. It has the Master Sword in it. It's deliberately meant to be taken as the same place. The fact that we don't see the ruins of Hyrule Castle, whether they actually exist or not, is meaningless. What matters is that we have one location which is clearly the same, and which clearly references extremely important plot elements in OoT and ALttP.

[Psytronic]

I'm not discounting what you're saying, I'm saying it's your preference to receive it that way.

Actually, I think you're being unreasonable. You seem to think anything can change if it suits gameplay, even though it apparently has little directly connecting it aside from visual resemblence or name.

You take the ruins of Hyrule Castle and the city it encompasses to be implied. You are being unreasonable in that you cannot possibly accept that it is a different location, despite the obvious: There is a Hyrule Castle, and it is halfway across the map. The Temple of Time is just as easily destroyed and rebuilt, it is a stone structure just as the castle is. Why should they not have adhered to a similar floorplan? That is, if we are to assume you are correct and it is a direct sequel to OoT, it is just as likely that there was built another temple just as there have been built many similar cathedrals in many different locations.

How many times has Rome moved? Why did it move?

Either way, you are assuming implied meaning while I am not.

[Impossible]

TP states as a fact that the Temple of Time predates the Hylians themselves. It wasn't "rebuilt" based on a goddamn "floorplan". This is ridiculous. There's no ancient or historical significance of TP's Hyrule Castle, while TP's Temple of Time is clearly intended to be the ruins of the very same place we went to in OoT, as going back in time to the "preserved" temple reveals.

Edited by Impossible, 09 April 2009 - 10:35 AM.

[Psytronic]

If the game states that it's an ancient and historical building, then by all means at least that is accurate. Unless they decide to retcon it, eh?

It's very amusing to me that you are up in arms, calling me names over the fact that I have not chosen to accept an implication while you have. That assumption in itself implies that the floating-face sages are direct descendants of the sages in OoT and the ancestors of the sages' descendants in LttP, unless these sages are entirely different sages and just so happen to be the only folks around to deal with Ganondorf.

Which game then becomes the representative of the Imprisoning War? I don't recall LttP mentioning how Ganon could pop his head out of the Dark World to say HAI GAIZ whenever he felt like it.

[MikePetersSucks]

Also, as for the translation thing: NoA does HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE FUCKING TRANSLATIONS, and constantly gets shit WRONG, so for people like me who are actually Japanese, dealing with them is a fucking eye sore. Since we're trying to discuss the true storyline of the games, isn't it prudent to get to the actual source material and get a more accurate translation? God knows it's already cleared up dozens of plot holes created by the official translations, like Wise Men.

Which game then becomes the representative of the Imprisoning War? I don't recall LttP mentioning how Ganon could pop his head out of the Dark World to say HAI GAIZ whenever he felt like it.

So like...who the hell said TP was the Imprisoning War or that Ganon could stick his head out whenever he liked? The Imprisoning War can't be anything with Ganon inbetween it and LTTP, so my money's on either FSA or an event that's not actually in a game. :3

[Psytronic]

No one said TP was the Imprisoning War. Since I had taken OoT to loosely be based around the concept for the Imprisoning War(seven sages, ends up with Ganondorf imprisoned in the Sacred Realm possibly aka Golden Land, unless I'm somehow mistaken, prequel to LttP, first game to be released after LttP concerning Ganon), it makes absolutely no sense for TP to fit between the two. Unless there are multiple Ganondorfs running around or something. There certainly seem to be, if you consider he'd have to have amazing tenacity to stay alive and fail so many times to fulfill an overarching timeline.

Edited by Psytronic, 09 April 2009 - 11:51 AM.

[TheAvengerLever]

There are multiple Ganons. Two I think. There's the OoT/TP/TWW Ganon, and then the newer FSA/ALTTP Ganon.

[Impossible]

Hey, I know when the Imprisoning War happens! It's... during the manual/intro/backstory events of ALttP! That was hard.

I wouldn't say NoA's translations are HORRIBLE, anyway, at least not from OoT onwards. They have mistakes, but only one or two real disasters in a game... I'm sure most games with a lot of text do much worse.

[Raien]

I actually think the NOA translation made TP's story almost illegible; I don't trust the new team anymore than I would trust Dan Owsen.

[Psytronic]

That's what I figured you guys were going on. I honestly don't know what to say to you folks except that when a new game comes out that basically breaks the timeline, I don't bend to the whim of Nintendo almighty and just say "Oh I'll find a way for it to fit". I gave up when OoT came out, because I couldn't for the world of me decide how the hell Ganon entering the Sacred Realm to gain the Triforce and inevitably end up trapped in the Sacred Realm could not be intended as the Imprisoning War, despite its inconsistencies to the backstory of LttP. The context of this Sacred Realm seems to be the same context as the Golden Land/Dark World. Of course, it's not the same words, so it's left open to interpretation... Meanwhile, Nintendo just goes and drops twenty more games with Ganondorf as integral to the plot, and none of it makes sense anymore, so the fans have no idea what to think.

This is what happens when you want to make money with a franchise, but don't know how to make a sequel. You make a crapload of prequels and screw it all up.

Edited by Psytronic, 10 April 2009 - 12:59 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Nintendo knows how to make sequels, as their other franchises show. They just don't care about million-years-long timelines. Either way, aside from a few hiccups, they've done a pretty good job of keeping a basic timeline in working order.

[Psytronic]

I wouldn't say so. It shouldn't be any problem whatsoever to avoid continuity errors, and they've botched it completely.

Edited by Psytronic, 10 April 2009 - 01:00 PM.

[SOAP]

On the subject of the Temple of Time....

I always took it that that it was physically moved and dropped into Lost/Faron Woods simmilar to how bridges were taken and teleported all willy nilly to different areas of Hyrule, far away from their original locations. I suspect it's original location was in Eldin Feild where we see what looks like the foundation of building. That would at laest put the Temple of Time in a near enough position to it's original location in OoT. Not exactly a perfect match but hey.

Geography I gave up on a long time ago. It's pretty obvious taht Hyrule's geography is not based on consistency but on gameplay and and what the individual game's story demands. TP's geography is the way it is based on TP's more or or less linear story. For example, traditionally the Zora's Fountain/Waterfall area/Hyrule's source of water was always at the north east corner of the map ever since ALttP. Death Mountain was to it's west. Lost Woods/Eastern Hyrule to it's South. Being that Link;'s story starts off around Faron/Ordon then goes into Eldin, it didn't make since for Link to pass through Lanayru to get to Eldin (with the breif period spent in Hyrule Castle). So Zora's Fountain is placed directly North where usually Death Mountain would be because taht's what the story demanded. Personally it looks aestically pleasing directly North. The view of Hyrule Castle when you look directly south of Zora's Fountain in TP... breathtaking. Even if it totally disregards Hyrule geography in OoT.

As for the Temple of Time though. I don't honestly know why they placed it so far to the south. If they retconned it's location to match ALttP's location of the mastersword, wouldn't it have made since to put Faron Woods where Kakariko Gorge is at? (and declare the the Wii version of the map the canon one?) I don't know. I just take it as it. To me it's implied to be the same temple as the one in ooT. Though I find it odd that it's entrance reminds me of the Forest Temple.

In retrospect, the Forest Temple of OoT should have been the Temple of Time to begin with.

Edited by SOAP, 11 April 2009 - 01:27 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I wouldn't say so. It shouldn't be any problem whatsoever to avoid continuity errors, and they've botched it completely.

Because they don't care. But it still fits together fairly nicely with some minor continuity snarls.

I always took it that that it was physically moved and dropped into Lost/Faron Woods simmilar to how bridges were taken and teleported all willy nilly to different areas of Hyrule, far away from their original locations. I suspect it's original location was in Eldin Feild where we see what looks like the foundation of building. That would at laest put the Temple of Time in a near enough position to it's original location in OoT. Not exactly a perfect match but hey.

That's silly. It's quite obviously time travel, given the Dominion Rod.

[SOAP]

I wouldn't say so. It shouldn't be any problem whatsoever to avoid continuity errors, and they've botched it completely.

Because they don't care. But it still fits together fairly nicely with some minor continuity snarls.

I always took it that that it was physically moved and dropped into Lost/Faron Woods simmilar to how bridges were taken and teleported all willy nilly to different areas of Hyrule, far away from their original locations. I suspect it's original location was in Eldin Feild where we see what looks like the foundation of building. That would at laest put the Temple of Time in a near enough position to it's original location in OoT. Not exactly a perfect match but hey.

That's silly. It's quite obviously time travel, given the Dominion Rod.

I was just throwing that out there for folks who can't wrap their heads around the geographical discontinuity between games. Honestly I don't really care if they decide to retcon the Temple of Time to be in the middle of Gerudo Desert and still tried to tell us it's the same Temple. It doesn't bother me like it used to when I used to be a big time geography whore. With things like this, I usually take the most recent game's portrayal of Hyrule as canon, contradiction be damned. If in OoT the Temple of Time was in castle Town and in TP it's in in Faron Woods far south from it's OoT location, then in my personal flow of the story in my head it's always been where TP's says it is, even in OoT. If a new game comes out placing it somewhere else, then that game trumps TP.

Personally I prefer TP's map over OoT's. It actually looks more like real world geography whereas OoT looks like a Bunch of holes dug into the ground aranged in hub like pattern around Hyrule feild but with most of the spokes on the right side with the left side of the map barely getting used for anything. ooT's map doesn't even actually potray how OoT's Hyrule actually is in the game. For one, the desert is directly west of Lake in OoT, much like it is in TP, but on the game's map it's further north-west.

Edited by SOAP, 11 April 2009 - 01:05 PM.

[Impossible]

Why don't people realise that TP didn't move the Temple of Time? TP moved Hyrule Castle. We know the temple is the same due to the time travel aspect. It's an ancient temple that's been there since ancient times.

[SOAP]

Why don't people realise that TP didn't move the Temple of Time? TP moved Hyrule Castle. We know the temple is the same due to the time travel aspect. It's an ancient temple that's been there since ancient times.

It also moved lake Hylia (again)? It also moved Zora's Domain above and beyond Death Mountain? But of course geography isn't the issue for me anymore. But it's not obvious that the Temple of Time did not move otherwise people wouldn't be scratching their heads figuring out why it's so far south of Lake Hylia. And things like the entrance looking like the entrance into the Forest Temple adds to confusion. It's kinda patraonizing to say what's obvious for you is obvious for everyone else. I agee at laest it's the it's same temple. I don't agree that it's l9ocation hasn't been retconned.

[Impossible]

All those other "moved" arguments are meaningless, because TP's geography isn't connected to other games. The Temple of Time is the one place we can be absolutely sure is the same as in OoT. It's also consistent with ALttP to say that Hyrule Castle was rebuilt away from the ToT/MS/Lost Woods/Sacred Grove.