325 replies to this topic

[Fin]

Actually, the death of the author can apply to anything in fiction. It depends on how the reader/player/whatever looks at it.

It obviously doesn't have a place in a discussion that bases itself on the word of god trope, but whichever one you follow is down to opinion. I prefer death myself, but I'll apply either in timeline discussion, depending on the thread.

EDIT: Raien pretty much hit the nail on the head with his second sentence.

Edited by Fintin O'Brien, 04 February 2009 - 07:38 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

First of all, you're clearly going against the story intended by ALttP. Secondly, how can you claim ALttP's manual no longer counts, but the just as outdated S&D does? S&D has no goddamn timeline relevance, it's like counting the manga. The old connections aren't even possible in light of TWW. So why the hell do you think Ganon went to the SR if not, as we canonically know, to get the Triforce? Why can't you just accept that ALttP-LoZ is free of any Triforce contradictions?

1) S&D goes in greater detail about the coup of Hyrule castle and perhaps the catastrophes prior to Agahnim's appearance, but nothing explicitly contradicts ALttP.
2) I don't claim ALttP's manual doesn't count. I claim that all of the story points it made with respect to Ganon were more or less engulfed by OoT, which is why they don't appear in the GBA version.
3) I think the maidens sealed the Four Sword in the Sacred Realm and that the Triforce was in Hyrule, and that Ganon created Agahnim to get the Triforce so he could break the seal.
4) ALttP-LoZ is just as free of contradictions as TWW-LoZ-OoX-ALttP.

There is absolutely no way that this interpretation was ever at any point considered or intended by anyone involved with any of the games.

Which is why the Triforce is the crest of the royal family and why the composer brothers are studying the Triforce as one of the royal family's inherited powers and why the royal family is entrusted with the safeguarding of the entrance to the Sacred Realm and are the only ones to know the location of the Triforce.

It's been established every time you've brought up this horrible argument that even if the mirrors COULD be the same in both games, despite numerous crucial contradictions in basically EVERYTHING about them, it is NOT evidence.

There are no real contradictions. The only ones are the ones you want to see because of, wait, "overly literal interpretations of precise wording."

YOU CAN NOT PROVE A THEORY WITH A THEORY THAT IS ONLY TRUE IF THE THEORY IT IS PROVING IS ASSUMED TO BE TRUE.

You cannot prove a developer stated placement wrong with a theory that is only true if the theory it is proving it assumed to be true.

Difference being I have a developer stated placement and you don't.

The other thing is, I'm yet to see anyone point out evidence that would make LoZ-ALttP have any logic to it.

The Triforce is split in both of OoT's sequels; LoZ would provide a scenario that definitively unites it prior to ALttP (which needs to happen), something that TP does not do. TWW could theoretically allot for this as well.

Especially when, as was already established, the histories of the two mirrors directly contradict each other - it would have to have been in two places at once, before OoT.

Why? In the Adult timeline, it was never, as far as we know, used to execute Ganondorf (which is what the Arbiter's Grounds is for, according to TP).

It's just as hilariously bad as "sealed away from the world", if not more so.

But not as hilariously bad as arguing that ALttP is a sequel to the only game besides OoT that doesn't end with the Triforce united? (and further, that it was ever a direct sequel to OoT to begin with despite the same problem in OoT?)

There are no fewer than 3 suggestions that the royal family is connected to the Triforce in OoT:
1) The Triforce crest is the crest of the royal family
2) The royal family are the only ones to know of the Triforce's location
3) The composer brothers associate the Triforce with the hereditary power of the family

There is even a stark example of a male member of the royal family inheriting the Triforce "in part" after OoT, in TWW, and the last owner of the Triforce in TWW was a royal family member.

There are no more than 0 suggestions that a member of the royal family owns or receives the Triforce, in whole or in part, after the events of ALttP. Or in AST, contrary to MPS's bull. The only real suggestions are the fact that LoZ and OoX show that the Triforce/parts of the Triforce was/were in the hands of the family, but this doesn't confirm anything about ALttP, which by itself would need to generate a scenario that can explain this.

Absolutely zero of these observations (the ones outlined immediately above) required any interpretation or speculation at all on my part, as they are all factual observations of actual statements or descriptions within the games. Saying "Link getting the Triforce in ALttP means the royal family will get it," to the contrary, is complete and utter fanfiction as no suggestion of this appears whatsoever within the game.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 04 February 2009 - 11:55 AM.

[Raien]

But not as hilariously bad as arguing that ALttP is a sequel to the only game besides OoT that doesn't end with the Triforce united? (and further, that it was ever a direct sequel to OoT to begin with despite the same problem in OoT?)

I didn't create an absolute contradiction within a single sentence; your statement was funnier. I even showed it to my friend who has a casual interest in the timeline, and he said "LMAO That's hilarious!"

And by the by, even though I place ALttP after TP and FSA, I do so with the belief that the CT is incomplete. Post this statement on ZU and tell me how many people laugh at the idea of an incomplete timeline.

Edited by Raien, 04 February 2009 - 12:38 PM.

[Erimgard]

I have a few questions, Erimgrad.

Certainly.

1. If LOZ takes place right after OOT/WW, then this means the AOL back-story occurs sometime before OOT or between OOT and LOZ. Explain the inconsistency of having the Triforce in Hyrule during either of these times. The inconsisteny being, pre-OOT there is no evidence of the Triforce being in Hyrule and post-OOT when it is split up.

I place the AoL backstory sometime after PH.
The description of the Sleeping Zelda in the Japanese is "first generation/founder" Zelda. She's the first Zelda of the new Kingdom, the founder Zelda.

2. The entrance to the SR was said to be somewhere in Hyrule, the original Hyrule. If a new Hyrule should somehow come about on the Great Sea, what proof is there that an entrance to the SR should ever be there? Without a SR, ALTTP can never take place.

Well, it's said in aLttP [Japanese text] that throughout history only a select few have known the entrance to the Sacred Realm, and at some point, even that information was lost. So yeah, it'd be hard to find, but sometime prior to aLttP [and after FSA] Ganon finds it.

3. Where, in this theory, does the Trident come from?

Created by Twinrova most likely, as they summon it during Ganon's resurrection.

I would help if you posted the timeline, but I am guessing its OOT-WW-LOZ-FSA-ALTTP?

OoT-WW-PH-LoZ-AoL-OoS/A-MC-FS-FSA-aLttP-LA
OoT-MM-TP

Also, I appreciate that you are able to calmly discuss and debate your differences with me

[NM87]

3) I think the maidens sealed the Four Sword in the Sacred Realm and that the Triforce was in Hyrule, and that Ganon created Agahnim to get the Triforce so he could break the seal.
4) ALttP-LoZ is just as free of contradictions as TWW-LoZ-OoX-ALttP.

What proof is there where the Triforce went after WW? If it went back to the SR, like I said, it would be lost forever since the entrance to the SR was somewhere in the original Hyrule which was then washed away. If it went somewhere on the Great Sea?good luck with proving how it came into the Royal Family?s possession. (fan-fiction)

Furthermore, you claim:

by merely safeguarding it in the Sacred Realm to prevent it from being misused the king would be "using" it to help maintain the peace

This is also another inconsistency because if the King of AOL used the Triforce by not using it while it was in the SR, then he never had it to begin with. So he could not have divided the Triforce into three pieces. Also, if the entrance to the SR was in the original Hyrule, and hat Hyrule is washed away, then he has no way of getting it anyway.

Which is why the Triforce is the crest of the royal family and why the composer brothers are studying the Triforce as one of the royal family's inherited powers and why the royal family is entrusted with the safeguarding of the entrance to the Sacred Realm and are the only ones to know the location of the Triforce.

How is it that you love developer quotes when the suit you, but not when they don?t? TMC is said to be the eariliest game in the timeline. Taken with a grain of salt of course, but just be cautious.

LoZ would provide a scenario that definitively unites it prior to ALttP

The Triforce needs to be in the SR prior to ALTTP, which it is not after LOZ.

There are no more than 0 suggestions that a member of the royal family owns or receives the Triforce, in whole or in part, after the events of ALttP.

Saying "Link getting the Triforce in ALttP means the royal family will get it," to the contrary, is complete and utter fanfiction as no suggestion of this appears whatsoever within the game.

They don?t need to, it can come into their possession when Link dies, since all you have to do is touch the Triforce, which the AOL King probably did. Or maybe ALTTP Link is the AOL King (fan-fiction, but hey).
Compare this tiny bit of theorizing, which is not difficult to grasp, with a new Hyrule magically appearing out of nowhere, in which case you don?t even know if the new land created by the Koroks is even going to be called Hyrule.

I place the AoL backstory sometime after PH.
The description of the Sleeping Zelda in the Japanese is "first generation/founder" Zelda. She's the first Zelda of the new Kingdom, the founder Zelda.

This most definitely works assuming the kingdom is new. My next question is, how does the AOL King come into possession of the Triforce?

Well, it's said in aLttP [Japanese text] that throughout history only a select few have known the entrance to the Sacred Realm, and at some point, even that information was lost. So yeah, it'd be hard to find, but sometime prior to aLttP [and after FSA] Ganon finds it.

Ah, but that is to ignore OOT. During OOT, many people had an idea where the entrance to the SR might be, which was the Temple of Time. If the Temple is washed away, how do you account for an entrance to the SR on the Great Sea?

Created by Twinrova most likely, as they summon it during Ganon's resurrection.

Ok?but is the Trident a product of the summon, or does the summoned Ganon already posses it from where he is being summoned? Just curious what you thought.

OoT-WW-PH-LoZ-AoL-OoS/A-MC-FS-FSA-aLttP-LA
OoT-MM-TP

Well, the only thing I am confused by is the geography. Not a big fan of geography, but the land mass seems very volatile, like the changes between LOZ and MC and then to FSA. Also, after OOX, what happens to the Trident to make is become enshrined in the desert pyramid in FSA? How do you know it survives Ganon?s destruction in OOX? (probably just a tiny detail in the grand scheme of things, but again I?m just curious)

Also, I appreciate that you are able to calmly discuss and debate your differences with me

Whadya say ?bout mah momma?

Edited by NM87, 04 February 2009 - 01:44 PM.

[Erimgard]

This most definitely works assuming the kingdom is new. My next question is, how does the AOL King come into possession of the Triforce?

As I tried to explain to Impossible, Daphnes wishes for the washing away of Hryule, and a hope for the future at the end of Wind Waker. Right after that, water starts pouring in [physically fulfilling the first part of the wish] and then the Triforce flies upwards towards the surface.

I believe the Triforce flying away is the fulfillment of the second part of the wish. It doesn't simply vanish [like we see it do at the end of OoS/A linked game], it flies to the surface. My belief is that it was sent off to a resting place where it would eventually come into the possession of the Great Ruler of AoL's backstory.

Ah, but that is to ignore OOT. During OOT, many people had an idea where the entrance to the SR might be, which was the Temple of Time. If the Temple is washed away, how do you account for an entrance to the SR on the Great Sea?

OoT is the era where "a select few" people know of the Sacred Realm's entrance. The flood brings about the era where no one knows.

I'll admit, I'm not exactly sure how Ganon finds an entrance to the SR pre-aLttP...
But doesn't the same problem exist with a post-TP placement of aLttP? The ToT does not appear to serve as an entrance any more.

Also, in aLttP there are about half a dozen portals to the Sacred/Dark World...we don't know how/when these came about, and they could have served as Ganon's entry point.

Ok?but is the Trident a product of the summon, or does the summoned Ganon already posses it from where he is being summoned? Just curious what you thought.

Could be either way. As I believe this to be the first use of the Trident, it need not have any magical powers, it's just a weapon, so I don't think its origins are particularly relevant. It's after this point that it gains the power to turn whoever touches it into the Yami No Maou.

Well, the only thing I am confused by is the geography. Not a big fan of geography, but the land mass seems very volatile, like the changes between LOZ and MC and then to FSA. Also, after OOX, what happens to the Trident to make is become enshrined in the desert pyramid in FSA? How do you know it survives Ganon?s destruction in OOX? (probably just a tiny detail in the grand scheme of things, but again I?m just curious)

I'm using a public library computer right now, and I only have two minutes of time left :/
hopefully I can find another open computer and reply to this soon, but if not, I'll get to it another day.

Whadya say ?bout mah momma?

Watchu talkin' bout Willis??

[MikePetersSucks]

Erimgard, one question: Why do you put all of those games on the adult timeline post-PH, as opposed to on the child timeline as seems to be the general consensus?

[Impossible]

You cannot prove a developer stated placement wrong with a theory that is only true if the theory it is proving it assumed to be true.

Difference being I have a developer stated placement and you don't.

So not only are you now going to weasel your way out of your bullshit argument, you're going to do so with something completely irrelevant?

Miyamoto's statement isn't being disproved by a theory, it's being disproved by cold, hard facts. Actually, FSA being a direct sequel to FS is only a theory, try that one.

Also, I really enjoy watching Lex and Erimgard justify their timelines with massive speculation and fan fiction, but then say that it has no more contradictions than a placement which we now know Nintendo had in mind, have hinted at repeatedly, and, unlike theirs, have actually made POSSIBLE.

Edited by Impossible, 04 February 2009 - 03:27 PM.

[NM87]

I believe the Triforce flying away is the fulfillment of the second part of the wish. It doesn't simply vanish [like we see it do at the end of OoS/A linked game], it flies to the surface. My belief is that it was sent off to a resting place where it would eventually come into the possession of the Great Ruler of AoL's backstory.

Understood. That?s how you explain the transition between WW and LOZ.

OoT is the era where "a select few" people know of the Sacred Realm's entrance. The flood brings about the era where no one knows.

I don' think its necessary for a flood to bring about this era, ALTTP mentions that over time that information was lost anyway.

But doesn't the same problem exist with a post-TP placement of aLttP? The ToT does not appear to serve as an entrance any more.

The difference is that on the Child Timeline, the original Hyrule is intact. To state that the ToT doesn't function as the entrance to the SR anymore after TP is an assumption not supported by the game. Therefore, since there is no reason given why it should not function as the entrance, we assume that it still is.

Furthermore, on the Great Sea, there is no entrance to the SR, it was washed away with Hyrule. How do you account for an entrance on the Great Sea to the SR which is necessary for ALTTP? The SR was connected to the original Hyrule, there isn't any proof that it should be connected to this new land formed merely by the Deku Tree.

Also, in aLttP there are about half a dozen portals to the Sacred/Dark World...we don't know how/when these came about, and they could have served as Ganon's entry point.

I'm pretty sure those portals appeared after Ganon had found the entrance and his evil began to leak out of the Golden Land (through those openings, which is why you can only enter from the Light World because the sages sealed the entrances exiting the Dark World to keep Ganon imprisoned.).

Could be either way. As I believe this to be the first use of the Trident, it need not have any magical powers, it's just a weapon, so I don't think its origins are particularly relevant. It's after this point that it gains the power to turn whoever touches it into the Yami No Maou.

Like I said, its relative, but I think it more likely that he be summoned with the Trident rather than Twinrova create some random weapon for him to wield when he returns.

[Fin]

Welp, I've delayed it long enough, but here are my thoughts on the timeline. I earlier alluded to the fact that I'm more of a death of the author kinda guy, so later I may post up my own personal fanon timeline, but for now here are my opinions on the official timeline. Spoilers tags, since it's gonna be pretty redundant this late into the thread.

creation of Hyrule
oocca depart for the heavens
the twili's ancestors are banished to the twilight realm
sages seal the temple of time
the hero of men appears to fight off hordes of monsters
The Minish Cap
a Hyrulean civil war is fought
Ocarina of Time
Majora's Mask
Twilight Princess
Four Swords
Four Swords Adventures
The Imprisoning War is fought
A Link to the Past
Link's Awakening
The legend of the sleeping Zelda
The Legend of Zelda
The Adventure of Link
Oracle of Ages/Seasons

The split
Ocarina of Time future
Hyrule is flooded
The Wind Waker
Phantom Hourglass

Notes:

I've left out the backstories involving the wind and dark tribes, since it's pretty much impossible to know where the developers intend those to occur right now. If there's a missing chapter involving Vaati between Four Swords and Minish Cap the same problem occurs - no idea where it "officially" lies. I've placed the Imprisoning War after Four Swords Adventures since the official stance on the connection changed during development. Obviously "FSA is the Imprisoning War" never had a chance to become canon, thanks to Miyamoto. The Oracle games were originally developed to retell and continue the stories of the original NES games, and since I see no reason why the continuation idea would have changed even after the remake idea was scrapped, I place it there.

The twili's backstory occurs during OoT's war backstory. I believe the OoT war was a reference to the conflicts mentioned in Link to the Past, and I'm certain the twili's backstory blah blah blah DISREGARD THAT I FAIL THEORISING. Impossible has convinced me that the twili background occurs very early in Hyrule history (funnily enough, this is what I always believed for my fanon theory). Their ancestor's insurrection is treated as ancient history in the game - particular in the sages' roles as guardians of the mirror since ancient times. So... yeah. In light of this, I've placed this event pretty much right after the creation of the world, squeezing it between the oocca's departute and the sealing of the sacred realm. I used to like to think that the oocca and the sages created the Temple of Time together, but honestly, I reckon the idea that the oocca built the temple is just a straight-out retcon.

Edited by Fintin O'Brien, 05 February 2009 - 12:16 PM.

[Erimgard]

The difference is that on the Child Timeline, the original Hyrule is intact. To state that the ToT doesn't function as the entrance to the SR anymore after TP is an assumption not supported by the game. Therefore, since there is no reason given why it should not function as the entrance, we assume that it still is.

Furthermore, on the Great Sea, there is no entrance to the SR, it was washed away with Hyrule. How do you account for an entrance on the Great Sea to the SR which is necessary for ALTTP? The SR was connected to the original Hyrule, there isn't any proof that it should be connected to this new land formed merely by the Deku Tree.

Well the Master Sword is pulled from the Temple of Time pedestal in Twilight Princess, and no door to the Sacred Realm is opened. How does that not imply that the ToT no longer serves as an/the entry point to the Sacred Realm?

Again, I believe Ganon's entry point to be one of the portals to the Dark World. I'll further address that in a minute.

I'm pretty sure those portals appeared after Ganon had found the entrance and his evil began to leak out of the Golden Land (through those openings, which is why you can only enter from the Light World because the sages sealed the entrances exiting the Dark World to keep Ganon imprisoned.).

I believed that once too, but searching through aLttP, no such indication is made. We only know that Ganon broke the seal [making an entrance near Hyrule castle] and that he intends to make that breech in the seal become larger.
No correlation is made to the portals.

Now, that stuff from yesterday:

Well, the only thing I am confused by is the geography. Not a big fan of geography, but the land mass seems very volatile, like the changes between LOZ and MC and then to FSA. Also, after OOX, what happens to the Trident to make is become enshrined in the desert pyramid in FSA? How do you know it survives Ganon?s destruction in OOX? (probably just a tiny detail in the grand scheme of things, but again I?m just curious)

Yeah, LoZ/AoL's geography is a problem, but it's a problem that exists no matter where you place it.
If LoZ/AoL is pre aLttP, then it's difficult to connect LoZ/Aol Hyrule and MC Hyrule.

However, if LoZ/AoL Hyrule is post-aLttP, you have another problem.
Standing on aLttP's death mountain shows that there is forest as far as the eye can see extending northward. Also, the eastern side of Hyrule is bordered by mountain.

AoL Hyrule, however, has a vast mountain range directly north of death mountain, and eastern Hyrule is bordered by water.
LoZ/AoL Hyrule's geography does not play nice with anyone.

As for the Trident after OoX:
After AoL, Ganon's minions begin work to try to find a way to revive him. Why should they not do the same after OoX?
With the Trident filled with either Ganon's powers or spirit [depending on what Yorishiro is supposed to be referring to in the resurrection scene] it is preserved [in the pyramid] and eventually taken up by FSA Ganondorf.

Also, I really enjoy watching Lex and Erimgard justify their timelines with massive speculation and fan fiction, but then say that it has no more contradictions than a placement which we now know Nintendo had in mind, have hinted at repeatedly, and, unlike theirs, have actually made POSSIBLE.

I also enjoy how you could not put together a cohesive argument without making false assumptions of my beliefs and insulting me for things you weren't even sure about, all the while doing nothing to point out how your timeline was any more workable. If you ever decide to talk in a civil manner like NM87 is willing to do, I'd be happy to discuss and debate my timeline with you.

Erimgard, one question: Why do you put all of those games on the adult timeline post-PH, as opposed to on the child timeline as seems to be the general consensus?

Various reasons:

aLttP: Because I believe OoT to be the Seal War; because Wind Waker kills off the Hylian language and thins the bloodline
FSA: Because of its connections to aLttP; because of it's island-based geography; because all the child timeline elements planned in the beta were removed
FS: Prequel to FSA
MC: This one's a bit trickier. Though I prefer it close to the other FS games, I realize it can fit fairly well at the beginning of the timeline. Unlike most people at ZU [notorios for their MC is not first stance] I am willing to listen to those who believe it is first, and even support them, due to the fact that most evidence against it can be considered cameos

LoZ/AoL: Island-based Hyrule; early-adult placement makes the Sleeping Zelda story still able to have a "first generation/founder" Zelda; dead language referenced in manual; possible connections to the Cobble Kingdom of PH

OoX; pre-FSA indications based on the Trident and Ganon's titles; connectivity to AoL; conectivity to spin-off FPTRR which features island based Hyrule; the Oracles in MC are said to have come from a long line of Oracles, and have moved to Hyrule [indicating a pre-MC OoX]

[NM87]

Well the Master Sword is pulled from the Temple of Time pedestal in Twilight Princess, and no door to the Sacred Realm is opened. How does that not imply that the ToT no longer serves as an/the entry point to the Sacred Realm?

The Master Sword was the final key in opening the entrance to the SR, the first time the SR would be opened. Rauru implies that Link opened the Door of Time, yet Ganondorf walked in. Since the entrance has been open already and someone entered the SR, I see no reason for the Master Sword to be a key in opening the entrance to the SR.

I believed that once too, but searching through aLttP, no such indication is made.

I think we are led to believe that this was the case with the portals surrounding Hyrule, since the Magic Mirror?s purpose is to allow one to exit the SR without use of the portal, since they are sealed. Otherwise, where do you suppose they came from?

After AoL, Ganon's minions begin work to try to find a way to revive him. Why should they not do the same after OoX?

It all depends on the Trident. Was the weapon preserved when Ganon was destroyed in OOX? Judging by Ganon?s death, it was not, but its still possible if you assume that it survives and is recovered. Maybe the Zuna are descended of Ganon?s evil tribe (in your theory).

AoL Hyrule, however, has a vast mountain range directly north of death mountain, and eastern Hyrule is bordered by water.
LoZ/AoL Hyrule's geography does not play nice with anyone.

I think the clouds covering the area of ALTTP block out the ocean portion we see in LOZ. Evidence is found in LA, which occurs right after ALTTP, in which Link sails away from Hyrule and returns the same way.

Edited by NM87, 05 February 2009 - 02:36 PM.

[Erimgard]

The Master Sword was the final key in opening the entrance to the SR, the first time the SR would be opened. Rauru implies that Link opened the Door of Time, yet Ganondorf walked in. Since the entrance has been open already and someone entered the SR, I see no reason for the Master Sword to be a key in opening the entrance to the SR.

Well if the ToT is still the "door" to the Sacred Realm, and if the Master Sword can no longer open said door...how exactly is it accessible from the ToT?

I think we are led to believe that this was the case with the portals surrounding Hyrule, since the Magic Mirror?s purpose is to allow one to exit the SR without use of the portal, since they are sealed. Otherwise, where do you suppose they came from?

How would Ganon being trapped inside the SR/DR with no means of escape give him the ability to open more portals leading in, but not out? If anything, portals opened up by Ganon would either be exclusively exit portals, or two-way portals [like the portal he opens up by capturing the Seven Maidens]. I don't know how the portals got there, but they are not implied to be linked to Ganon.

It all depends on the Trident. Was the weapon preserved when Ganon was destroyed in OOX? Judging by Ganon?s death, it was not, but its still possible if you assume that it survives and is recovered. Maybe the Zuna are descended of Ganon?s evil tribe (in your theory).

Well yes, the theory is that the Trident was not destroyed in the battle with Ganon.
The fact that we kill Ganon twice while he's wielding it [OoX, aLttP] implies that in one of those two battles, it must survive. Makes just as much sense as it surviving the aLttP battle.

I think the clouds covering the area of ALTTP block out the ocean portion we see in LOZ. Evidence is found in LA, which occurs right after ALTTP, in which Link sails away from Hyrule and returns the same way.

Eastern Hyrule as presented in aLttP is mountains with clouds. The Eastern part of the "Death Mountain Region" of LoZ/AoL is forested area next to water.

Also, LA's Japanese manual specifies that Koholint is a southern island, so Link would not be sailing from eastern Hyrule in aLttP anyway.

[Fin]

I earlier alluded to the fact that I'm more of a death of the author kinda guy, so later I may post up my own personal fanon timeline

Because nobody demanded it, here it is. Once again, spoiler tags, this time because... well, it's pretty much fanon.

creation of Hyrule
oocca depart for the heavens
the twili's ancestors are banished to the twilight realm
sages seal the temple of time
the wind tribe ascend to the cloud tops
the hero of men appears to fight off hordes of monsters
The Minish Cap
Vaati returns, but is sealed within the foursword
a Hyrulean civil war is fought
Ocarina of Time
Majora's Mask
Four Swords
Four Swords Adventures
Twilight Princess
the Imprisoning War is fought
Ambi's reign in Labrynna
A Link to the Past
Link's Awakening
Oracle of Ages
Oracle of Seasons
The legend of the sleeping Zelda
The Legend of Zelda
The Adventure of Link

Notes:

The split timeline is the same as usual, so no need to include that.

The reason for the differences between this timeline and my assumption of the correct timeline, is that this is my opinion of the order based solely on information gleaned from the official English-language translations of the games and manuals. To sum up; no creator quotes, no fan translations, all bullshit.

Four Swords backstory
Vaati returns after Minish Cap, in order for the Four Swords backstory to occur proper. His motive apparently shifts from light force to women. Puberty must've set in. Anyway, he becomes the wind mage, presumably by attacking the wind tribe and taking their power (and their tower), before his defeat at the hands of (probably) the Link from Cap.

Twilight Princess/Four Swords Adventures backstory
The twili's ancestors try to take the Triforce pretty soon after the creation of the world. With no line of heroes yet established, the gods order the light spirits to intervene. It's because of this uprising that the gods order the sages to seal off the entrance to the sacred realm and forge the master sword. Incidentally, the dark mirror and the mirror of twilight are one and the same ZOMG PHAIL. The zuna may or may not be descended from the same tribe as the twili.

Placement of Four Swords games
The Four Swords games occur before Twilight Princess here, as Ganondorf seems relatively young during Four Swords Adventures, and he hasn't yet gained much notoriety. After his plan in Ocarina fails, he flees to the desert. He later (long enough for Link to reproduce, I guess) seeks the trident, looking for an alternative to the Triforce. In doing so, he breaks one of the Gerudo's most important laws, and becomes an outcast. After Four Swords Adventures he breaks free of the seal on the foursword, but is captured, beginning the events that will lead to Princess. After his death, the Triforce returns to the sacred realm, and his followers (Twinrova?) revive him using Link as a sacrifice. Ganon steals back the trident, and uses its power to destroy the seal on the temple of time. The Imprisoning War follows.

Placement of Oracle games
First off, I think Ages > Seasons makes for a better paced story. Ages' past era is before Link to the Past, because I don't believe 400 years separates those two games.
Anyway, the games come after Link to the Past, rather than Legend of Zelda, due to... stupid, overanalytical reasons. Ganon can't be resurrected by the traditional method, because his remains are in the sacred realm, inaccessable to the witches. Thus, a more elaborate ritual is required, one that will restore Ganon's body from nothing.

Edited by Fintin O'Brien, 06 February 2009 - 05:35 PM.

[NM87]

Well if the ToT is still the "door" to the Sacred Realm, and if the Master Sword can no longer open said door...how exactly is it accessible from the ToT?

The Door of Time is the giant stone wall that opens up leading into the chamber, the Master Sword is a key to activate a portal. There isn't any reason for the ToT not to function as the entrance simply because the portal doesn't appear every time the sword is pulled.

How would Ganon being trapped inside the SR/DR with no means of escape give him the ability to open more portals leading in, but not out? If anything, portals opened up by Ganon would either be exclusively exit portals, or two-way portals [like the portal he opens up by capturing the Seven Maidens]. I don't know how the portals got there, but they are not implied to be linked to Ganon.

I don't think you understand, those portals didn't just appear on their own. Either Ganon was sending his evil through them into Hyrule, or they appeared as a result of Ganon slowly breaking the seal.

Well yes, the theory is that the Trident was not destroyed in the battle with Ganon.
The fact that we kill Ganon twice while he's wielding it [OoX, aLttP] implies that in one of those two battles, it must survive. Makes just as much sense as it surviving the aLttP battle.

Yes, I was just trying to discuss the Trident, but that's alright.

Eastern Hyrule as presented in aLttP is mountains with clouds. The Eastern part of the "Death Mountain Region" of LoZ/AoL is forested area next to water.

Also, LA's Japanese manual specifies that Koholint is a southern island, so Link would not be sailing from eastern Hyrule in aLttP anyway.

Level 2 is around the eartern forested part of LOZ, while the Eastern Palace is around the eastern semi-forested part of ALTTP, both of which are fairly close to the shrinking Lake Hylia. It doesn't seem unlikely that LOZ is ALTTP Hyrule but even more destroyed, the graveyard could be Kakariko, there are trees where the Lost Woods would be, etc., so its entirely possible for ALTTP to have an ocean to the south once the clouds cleared.

[Impossible]

I also enjoy how you could not put together a cohesive argument without making false assumptions of my beliefs and insulting me for things you weren't even sure about, all the while doing nothing to point out how your timeline was any more workable.

He says this immediately before justifying his timeline with most of the same nonsense I just debunked from Lex. Hm. I think you just chose not to read the cohesive argument part. And wow, here's how my timeline is more workable, because apparently I have to say that every five minutes, too: HYRULE STILL EXISTS. It wasn't "erased", it wasn't called the "land of the past", it was never supposed to be in an "eternal sleep", no characters were "bound to Hyrule" and "lived regretting/facing the past" as a result, it was never said that any new land "would not be Hyrule", and it's still actually possible for all the history and names of places that were known to none after TWW (except in fan fiction) to actually exist. It's pretty easy to show that my timeline is more workable, just compare to TP's ending: "Do not think everything ends with this... Think of this as the beginning of a blood smeared history of light and darkness!"

Meanwhile, I'm getting "contradicted" by an artistic aspect of the map in FSA, while if I try to use THE ACTUAL MAPS of FSA and ALttP, as in the real geography, to point out that it's exactly the same Hyrule as OoT, there's something wrong with that. The details being pointed out here are almost exclusively minute side things, optional dialogue, cameos, things that have nothing to do with the story at all and say nothing about intent... Taken as a whole, with everything IN CONTEXT and not just isolated quotes, there isn't a single game in the series released since 2002 that supports the idea of games after TWW. Even ALttP GBA is totally inconsistent with OoT. Which is no surprise, given that TWW's backstory replaced ALttP as the story of Ganon breaking the Sacred Realm seal, and then TWW replaced ALttP as the story of that Ganondorf's death. So there's no longer any connection.

Quick side note, I seem to have just scared Lex off by raging at him for using a theory as evidence (although he did manage one more post, and even you have to admit that his defence for that was a joke of a distraction that had nothing to do with the point). So don't think you can do the same thing regarding the Deku Tree's plan. It's still a theory, and not a very good one, since it's based entirely on a single out of context line, which could just as easily be taken as a false lead so that the ending - which emphasises the destruction of not only the physical Hyrule, but the actual idea of Hyrule itself - is even more unexpected. It would still go against everything else in the game on the subject. I should know, considering I just went through the entire game script, and especially the Japanese translations that make it certain.

Edited by Impossible, 07 February 2009 - 02:42 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

Meanwhile, I'm getting "contradicted" by an artistic aspect of the map in FSA, while if I try to use THE ACTUAL MAPS of FSA and ALttP, as in the real geography, to point out that it's exactly the same Hyrule as OoT, there's something wrong with that. The details being pointed out here are almost exclusively minute side things, optional dialogue, cameos, things that have nothing to do with the story at all and say nothing about intent... Taken as a whole, with everything IN CONTEXT and not just isolated quotes, there isn't a single game in the series released since 2002 that supports the idea of games after TWW. Even ALttP GBA is totally inconsistent with OoT. Which is no surprise, given that TWW's backstory replaced ALttP as the story of Ganon breaking the Sacred Realm seal, and then TWW replaced ALttP as the story of that Ganondorf's death. So there's no longer any connection.

On a personal note, I dont really think turning to stone qualifies as death.

I mean, sure, he was stabbed in the FACE, but, according to the timelines of most people, Ganon can be stabbed literally hundreds of places (exaggeration) and still somehow make his return.

[Erimgard]

Well if the ToT is still the "door" to the Sacred Realm, and if the Master Sword can no longer open said door...how exactly is it accessible from the ToT?

The Door of Time is the giant stone wall that opens up leading into the chamber, the Master Sword is a key to activate a portal. There isn't any reason for the ToT not to function as the entrance simply because the portal doesn't appear every time the sword is pulled.

The Master Sword opens and closes the door to the Sacred Realm/Temple of Light. I wasn't talking about the Door of Time.

I don't think you understand, those portals didn't just appear on their own. Either Ganon was sending his evil through them into Hyrule, or they appeared as a result of Ganon slowly breaking the seal.

Neither one of those options seems possible.

If they were "Ganon sending his evil" out...then why do they only lead in with nothing able to come out of them?

If they're a result of the Seal weakening, they could have only appeared within the last year [manual states that a year ago, when bad things were happening around Hyrule, the seal was examined, and it was in tact], yet there are people in the Dark World who say they've been there hundreds of years. And again, we saw what happened when Ganon was able to succeed in using the Maidens power...it created a two way entrance/exit in the seal. Not an enter-only portal.

Level 2 is around the eartern forested part of LOZ, while the Eastern Palace is around the eastern semi-forested part of ALTTP, both of which are fairly close to the shrinking Lake Hylia. It doesn't seem unlikely that LOZ is ALTTP Hyrule but even more destroyed, the graveyard could be Kakariko, there are trees where the Lost Woods would be, etc., so its entirely possible for ALTTP to have an ocean to the south once the clouds cleared.

I'm not disputing an ocean to the south. I believe there is one.
I'm disputing an ocean to the east.

And wow, here's how my timeline is more workable, because apparently I have to say that every five minutes, too: HYRULE STILL EXISTS. It wasn't "erased", it wasn't called the "land of the past", it was never supposed to be in an "eternal sleep", no characters were "bound to Hyrule" and "lived regretting/facing the past" as a result, it was never said that any new land "would not be Hyrule", and it's still actually possible for all the history and names of places that were known to none after TWW (except in fan fiction) to actually exist. It's pretty easy to show that my timeline is more workable, just compare to TP's ending: "Do not think everything ends with this... Think of this as the beginning of a blood smeared history of light and darkness!"

I never denied Hyrule being washed away, things being lost, etc.
As for the "impossible" theory of the names of things returning, answer me this:
Why in FPTRR is the world a flooded series of island/continents with names like "Death Mountain" and "Lon Lon Meadows" ...names that were forgotten with the flood, but now exist in a post-flood world?

Meanwhile, I'm getting "contradicted" by an artistic aspect of the map in FSA,

That's an in-game map.
No, I can't tell you exactly where to find it right, as the one who found it/posted it was TheManInTheMoon at ZI, and ZI is currently down. Lex may know though.

[Impossible]

I mean, sure, he was stabbed in the FACE, but, according to the timelines of most people, Ganon can be stabbed literally hundreds of places (exaggeration) and still somehow make his return.

When he has a piece of the Triforce, generally. Also, the dialogue of those scenes basically makes it clear that it's bringing an end to that story and the destinies of the king and Ganondorf.

Why in FPTRR is the world a flooded series of island/continents with names like "Death Mountain" and "Lon Lon Meadows" ...names that were forgotten with the flood, but now exist in a post-flood world?

Um, dude. FPTRR is not canon. You must be joking. Nintendo and the Zelda team had nothing to do with it. It is not a Zelda game - Link's Crossbow Training is closer to being one. Hell, the CD-i games all either star Link or have Zelda in the title... It has a few Zelda references, none of which have anything to do with the story of the Zelda series. Now, see, FPTRR being used as evidence, but TWW's evidence being ignored, that's what annoys me about this.

Also, it's Mount Desma, not Death Mountain. I have actually played the whole game. There's also Deku Forest, but duh, the Deku Tree still exists then. There are no other places that reference Zelda. Lon Lon Meadows is the only one, and if it were canon, I would say it's a coincidence, but since it's not, I'll just say it's a reference for fans. Honestly, I don't think there's even any reason to say FPTRR is after TWW, as its geography is about as important as FS's. It's a level select screen.

By the way, these names that were forgotten in a post-flood world are still forgotten in TMC. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be rationalised. They somehow appear again in time for FSA? Yeah.

That's an in-game map.
No, I can't tell you exactly where to find it right, as the one who found it/posted it was TheManInTheMoon at ZI, and ZI is currently down. Lex may know though.

Er, I do know that it's an in-game map. I've played FSA, and I even have the one I think you're talking about. It's just stupid and irrelevant, and has nothing to do with the story. (Much like TMC's backgrounds, I find that one hilarious because two other backgrounds contradict the first one, which was probably only made that way for gameplay reasons.) FSA's Hyrule is ALttP's Hyrule, which shows NO ocean. The majority of classic Zelda games, made before TWW existed, show or reference an ocean around Hyrule. I just don't think you understand that my complaint here is the use of evidence that is completely peripheral to the story and the main intent of the game. FSA's map was probably made while the game was still on the Child Timeline. It's an artistic thing and nothing more.

You seriously think that they completely changed its timeline placement, though? We know that the reason why Miyamoto changed the story was only because it was too complicated. It has nothing to do with the timeline placement. The story still contains many of the same elements, like the Knights of Hyrule (who died out in the IW) and the origins of Ganon.

Oh, on that subject, I noticed something recently going through TWW (using the English version, because the Japanese is the same, except it calls it Ganon Castle, and I want to be consistent):

Long ago, Ganon's Tower was an
impenetrable fortress that not even
the daring and dauntless Knights of
Hyrule could hope to assail.

I previously just ignored this, thinking it was a reference to OoT. But that actually doesn't make sense. The King was a witness to Ganon's second attack on Hyrule, before the flood, not to the original one. The first Ganon's Tower was destroyed in OoT. This is a new one, and he seems to be specifically referring to that tower. In other words, when Ganon broke the SR seal and attacked Hyrule, he built the Ganon's Tower we see in TWW - that part is pretty obvious. But the Knights of Hyrule attacked it. The Knights of Hyrule were present long after OoT. Maybe they were hinting at the fact that TWW retconned OoT's status as ALttP's backstory... You know, given that ALttP's backstory should actually BE CONNECTED TO ALTTP. It's ridiculous to suggest that several other Ganon games separate ALttP from its own damn backstory.

[TheAvengerLever]

Also, the dialogue of those scenes basically makes it clear that it's bringing an end to that story and the destinies of the king and Ganondorf.

Quotes please.

I don't doubt you but I don't remember what specific dialogue to which you're referring.

I'd also argue that it was creator intent that TWW fall last as well, which is why I don't doubt it when you said that that was TWW's purpose.

Even though I don't have an opinion about what the creators think.

When he has a piece of the Triforce, generally.

Yeah, but TP demonstrates that somehow the Triforce manages to find it's way to people.

And yet then again, I don't yet have an opinion on what exactly the "Divine Prank" was.

[Impossible]

Quotes please.

I don't doubt you but I don't remember what specific dialogue to which you're referring.

You can check in the translation topic, I linked to posts which contain these scenes in both English and Japanese. An early version of the translation table should be up very, very soon, too. Just going to need some help from jacensolo06 once I've finished my part.

[NM87]

The Master Sword opens and closes the door to the Sacred Realm/Temple of Light. I wasn't talking about the Door of Time.

Now the Master Sword opens the SR? My point was that you can enter the SR through the ToT without using the Master Sword. How do you think the sages got there?

If they were "Ganon sending his evil" out...then why do they only lead in with nothing able to come out of them?

That's AFTER the wise men cast their seal on the entrance.

If they're a result of the Seal weakening, they could have only appeared within the last year [manual states that a year ago, when bad things were happening around Hyrule, the seal was examined, and it was in tact], yet there are people in the Dark World who say they've been there hundreds of years. And again, we saw what happened when Ganon was able to succeed in using the Maidens power...it created a two way entrance/exit in the seal. Not an enter-only portal.

The people who were there hundreds of years could have entered the SR after Ganon had rediscovered it, or they could have been drawn their to become apart of his evil army. If those portals appeared when Ganon began sending evil into Hyrule, then anyone could have stumbled upon one of those portals created in which the evil came from.

In short, there?s more of an assumption to say that those portals appeared out of nowhere, since they really have no reason to, unless Ganon created them as he began his takeover.

I'm not disputing an ocean to the south. I believe there is one.
I'm disputing an ocean to the east.

East of ALTTP? That's kind of irrelevant if Link was sailing south to LA, like you said:

Also, LA's Japanese manual specifies that Koholint is a southern island, so Link would not be sailing from eastern Hyrule in aLttP anyway.

Now, if there is an ocean to the south, there?s probably an ocean to the east anyway, since in ALTTP you probably don't see the extended portion of Hyrule you see in LOZ. Look at these maps for instance. Entirely possible.

http://www.zeldalege...n=article_18_p5

[Fin]

Also, the dialogue of those scenes basically makes it clear that it's bringing an end to that story and the destinies of the king and Ganondorf.

Quotes please.

These probably aren't the quotes that Impossible was referring to, but since your original point was whether Ganon being encased in stone should constitute death...

Before the final battle, talking about the desert

When the sun rose into the sky, a burning wind punished my lands, searing the world. And when the moon climbed into the dark of night, a frigid gale pierced our homes. No matter when it came, the wind carried the same thing... Death.

His dying words.

Ughnn... Heh Heh... The wind... It is blowing...

So... make of that what you will.

[TheAvengerLever]

Now the Master Sword opens the SR? My point was that you can enter the SR through the ToT without using the Master Sword. How do you think the sages got there?

Err, if the sword were drawn and the Master Sword does indeed open the entrance to the SR it's perfectly plausible how the Sages got there.

Just saying that it could make sense, because I'm pretty sure from what I remember of OoT, drawing the Master Sword opened the entrance to the Sacred Realm.

[NM87]

Err, if the sword were drawn and the Master Sword does indeed open the entrance to the SR it's perfectly plausible how the Sages got there.

Just saying that it could make sense, because I'm pretty sure from what I remember of OoT, drawing the Master Sword opened the entrance to the Sacred Realm.

The Hero of Time is the only person who could pull the sword from the stone. The sages were building the ToT long ago, and Rauru is still there.

[Lexxi Aileron]

HYRULE STILL EXISTS. It wasn't "erased", it wasn't called the "land of the past", it was never supposed to be in an "eternal sleep", no characters were "bound to Hyrule" and "lived regretting/facing the past" as a result, it was never said that any new land "would not be Hyrule", and it's still actually possible for all the history and names of places that were known to none after TWW (except in fan fiction) to actually exist.

1) Everything from OoT/TP is "erased" by the 2D games.
2) Hyrule is referred to as an old kingdom in both LoZ and ALttP.
3) The fact that someone who expressly stated that he was emotionally bound to the pre-flood Hyrule says that a new kingdom would not be Hyrule really means nothing.
4) Very little history from OoT appears in any 2D game. Very few manmade landmarks from OoT or TP appear in any 2D game.

Meanwhile, I'm getting "contradicted" by an artistic aspect of the map in FSA, while if I try to use THE ACTUAL MAPS of FSA and ALttP, as in the real geography, to point out that it's exactly the same Hyrule as OoT, there's something wrong with that.

There's a mountain and a waterfall to the north and a desert to the south. Oh wow, what a splitting image. Forget that the most recent depiction of the Hyrule of OoT looks completely different.

It's still a theory, and not a very good one, since it's based entirely on a single out of context line, which could just as easily be taken as a false lead so that the ending - which emphasises the destruction of not only the physical Hyrule, but the actual idea of Hyrule itself - is even more unexpected.

The idea that ALttP is after TP is based entirely on a sacred evil-banishing sword being in a pedestal the woods (which isn't exactly a novel concept as it happens in 5 games). Absolutely nothing else requires or suggests that the two games are even remotely connected. In fact, most of TP's plot points wind up being dead-ends with respect to ALttP- the Triforce is in pieces (with no suggestion of being reunited); the mirror, which could have otherwise been a connection to FSA, was "utterly destroyed"; the Imprisoning War seems to have expressly failed to happen in any recognizable form.

So what ground do you stand on, exactly, besides the theory that no kingdom called Hyrule will exist after TWW?

[MikePetersSucks]

1) Everything from OoT/TP is "erased" by the 2D games.
2) Hyrule is referred to as an old kingdom in both LoZ and ALttP.
3) The fact that someone who expressly stated that he was emotionally bound to the pre-flood Hyrule says that a new kingdom would not be Hyrule really means nothing.
4) Very little history from OoT appears in any 2D game. Very few manmade landmarks from OoT or TP appear in any 2D game.

1) Oh mah gawd, games that came out before OOT and TP don't reference them, holy shit.
2) Seeing as those games are put near the end of most people's timelines, it doesn't matter any which way.
3) Uh...yea it does.
4) See above; geography doesn't mean anything.

There's a mountain and a waterfall to the north and a desert to the south. Oh wow, what a splitting image. Forget that the most recent depiction of the Hyrule of OoT looks completely different.

Geography. Worthless.

The idea that ALttP is after TP is based entirely on a sacred evil-banishing sword being in a pedestal the woods (which isn't exactly a novel concept as it happens in 5 games).

And because both games are on the Child Timeline de-facto. You also forget that TP has ruined fragments of the Temple of Time in it, making it a unique case.

Absolutely nothing else requires or suggests that the two games are even remotely connected. In fact, most of TP's plot points wind up being dead-ends with respect to ALttP- the Triforce is in pieces (with no suggestion of being reunited); the mirror, which could have otherwise been a connection to FSA, was "utterly destroyed"; the Imprisoning War seems to have expressly failed to happen in any recognizable form.

TP has a planned sequel, so chillax.

So what ground do you stand on, exactly, besides the theory that no kingdom called Hyrule will exist after TWW?

I think things are above "theory" status when it's stated pretty much word for word in the game itself by a character who has spoken 100% objective truth every time he's opened his mouth the entire fucking game through to the point of having him being the in-game Navi walkthrough assistant AND expository device.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Uh...yea it does.

No, it doesn't. It shows that Daphnes's character is consistent and that he remains bound to the sunken kingdom, since he will not consider any other land to be Hyrule.

And because both games are on the Child Timeline de-facto. You also forget that TP has ruined fragments of the Temple of Time in it, making it a unique case.

First, ALttP has never been stated to be on the child timeline.
Second, the TP ruins being ruins of the Temple of Time really has nothing to do with ALttP.

TP has a planned sequel, so chillax.

Source? LCT doesn't count.

I think things are above "theory" status when it's stated pretty much word for word in the game itself by a character who has spoken 100% objective truth every time he's opened his mouth the entire fucking game

And it's pretty much stated in the same speech that he has a bias towards his kingdom. Use context, kthx.

[Fin]

Uh...yea it does.

No, it doesn't. It shows that Daphnes's character is consistent and that he remains bound to the sunken kingdom, since he will not consider any other land to be Hyrule.

I think things are above "theory" status when it's stated pretty much word for word in the game itself by a character who has spoken 100% objective truth every time he's opened his mouth the entire fucking game

And it's pretty much stated in the same speech that he has a bias towards his kingdom. Use context, kthx.

How about the fact that he says all this during the denouement? I mean, it's pretty clear that letting Hyrule go is the damn point of the story.

[Lexxi Aileron]

How about the fact that he says all this during the denouement? I mean, it's pretty clear that letting Hyrule go is the damn point of the story.

It's also clear that the Hyrule in the 2D games released after TWW has an entirely new set of lore (which oddly enough involves lots of things that have been forgotten- see Ganon in FSA), an entirely new pantheon of temples (see FSA and ALttP), and has received its power from a source other than the gods (see TMC).

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 09 February 2009 - 11:58 AM.