325 replies to this topic

[Impossible]

"Real flood myths." Are we really going to do this? REAL FLOOD MYTHS? Even AFTER I pointed out how completely stupid that is to compare to the power of the gods "erasing" Hyrule. Oh god.

You say that I'm the one who ignores evidence that contradicts me, but you are the only person who believes that geography should be used in the way you do. It's complete bullshit to accuse me of that, because I completely reasoned why some geographical evidence cannot be story related. It has nothing to do with whether it supports my theory or not, it was a completely general statement. (LOL at you discounting my points because my geography points don't matter, yet somehow yours are the most important thing in the timeline.) You don't understand this because you assume everyone else has the same twisted goals as you - YOU'RE the one who bases all interpretations on whether or not they support your theory. I apply a consistent set of principles to how intent should be understood, and my line on geography is the same one it's been for years, regardless of what any particular theory suggests.

It's also hilarious that you feel entitled to make any claim about who ignores evidence. You're prioritising a single quote that is IN NO WAY maintained as part of the story, never reiterated or referred to at any time by any other character, says NOTHING about Hyrule so you just force your interpretation on to it, and has no connection to the game's overall themes. You choose this quote over the entire rest of the game. Things can only be "open to interpretation" to such an extent, your interpretation is nonsense. There are no other quotes in the game to support you. They all say the same damn thing. The STORY is completely consistent, and none of your evidence has ANYTHING to do with the story.

"Pseudo-secrets" aren't actual secrets, hence the word "pseudo". They're references to other games. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DISCUSSION. The point you refuse to understand is that not every bit of timeline evidence is a reference to another game. Your constant search for bizarre references that could not have been intended is one of the reasons you piss off people here. Now you're even taking developer quotes out of context - the pseudo-secret in question was the use of NAMES from another game. Yeah, that applies to something completely different here.

For the new land to "inherit the legacy of the old land" is not only pure fan fiction, AS THERE IS NOT A SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE IN THE ENTIRE GAME TO SUPPORT IT (this is why any claim you make of other people ignoring evidence is a joke), but it flatly contradicts what the king says. Several times. "Live for the future"? "That land will not be Hyrule"? Ringing any bells? Oh wait, you'd rather take a "secret" as timeline evidence and ignore everything else.

Edited by Impossible, 11 February 2009 - 04:26 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

"Real flood myths." Are we really going to do this? REAL FLOOD MYTHS? Even AFTER I pointed out how completely stupid that is to compare to the power of the gods "erasing" Hyrule. Oh god.

The gods erase the land of their constituents in basically every world religion ever. That Hyrule's does too doesn't seem to pose any more problem to me than it does to the adherents to said religions.

You say that I'm the one who ignores evidence that contradicts me, but you are the only person who believes that geography should be used in the way you do.

You're quite mistaken, either that or you think LA is the center of the universe.

(LOL at you discounting my points because my geography points don't matter, yet somehow yours are the most important thing in the timeline.)

I never said they didn't matter. I said I don't think that they're timeline connections given the change in direction of the rest of TP's references.

You don't understand this because you assume everyone else has the same twisted goals as you - YOU'RE the one who bases all interpretations on whether or not they support your theory.

Impossible: Where in goodness's name do you think the new Hyrule theory came from in the first place? Do you think I completely made it up, or do you think I played the game and came to the conclusion based on the game?

There are no other quotes in the game to support you.

"However, if all of the people of the kingdom were sealed, it would be the same as destroying it. Before the sealing, the gods informed those who had been chosen to create a new country to flee to the tall mountains."

summarized later:

"The gods left behind people to awaken Hyrule."

I don't think the ending contradicts either of these quotes. It shows that a literal awakening of Hyrule will not take place, but it never had to be a literal awakening in the first place. The Deku Tree's plan is the only actual evidence pointing to how/where a new country would be built; therefore I see it as the key.

"Pseudo-secrets" aren't actual secrets, hence the word "pseudo". They're references to other games. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DISCUSSION. The point you refuse to understand is that not every bit of timeline evidence is a reference to another game. Your constant search for bizarre references that could not have been intended is one of the reasons you piss off people here. Now you're even taking developer quotes out of context - the pseudo-secret in question was the use of NAMES from another game.

Impossible, just because the use of names was the example here does not mean that all these references are related to names.

And, Impossible, just because you disagree that something is a reference does not make it not a reference. (just like just because I think something is a reference doesn't mean it absolutely is one)

For the new land to "inherit the legacy of the old land" is not only pure fan fiction, AS THERE IS NOT A SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE IN THE ENTIRE GAME TO SUPPORT IT (this is why any claim you make of other people ignoring evidence is a joke), but it flatly contradicts what the king says. Several times. "Live for the future"? "That land will not be Hyrule"? Ringing any bells? Oh wait, you'd rather take a "secret" as timeline evidence and ignore everything else.

Live for the future, rather than he, who lived with the broken dream of bringing back his sealed-away kingdom.

That land will not be Hyrule, because Hyrule was the land that existed hundreds of years ago that Daphnes ruled over, the kingdom from OoT, and a new kingdom would be... a new kingdom, full of new people from a new generation.

These are not invalid interpretations of the quotes. The ending, as with most Zelda endings, is entirely open-ended because the creators don't want to restrict themselves to a timeline with each new game.

The name doesn't freaking matter. It only matters to you because your overly-literal interpretation of the quote excludes all other possibilities.

[Raien]

You're quite mistaken, either that or you think LA is the center of the universe.

Why does this sentence remind me of Edgar Alan Poe's "Masque of the Red Death"?

[NM87]

You're right about the "old world preserved by magic" thing, but that doesn't really hurt my point since if other flood myths show a resurgence after the old world is totally decimated, so can Zelda's.

Think of a dish, remember? If I clean a dirty one and hand it off to you, would you know what I had eaten off of it? No, I washed it and erased any evidence of what used to be there.

Good thing no one in LoZ, AoL, TMC, FSA, or ALttP calls it the chosen land of the gods; it's a title given to Hyrule when it was originally created by the gods at creation.

The SR is mentioned in a few of these games, and considering the Triforce exists in the normal world after WW, its difficult to imagine how an SR somehow develops in this new land, if the SR was originally the place the goddesses left the world. Its ok, I expect you to completely ignore this, again.

"The gods left behind people to awaken Hyrule."

Originally what was intended, this was canned when Ganon defeated Link at the end of the game and was about to touch the Triforce, the King resolved to put an end to the madness, making an unexpected wish.

Again, the legends survived. The idea that they all disappeared is pure fiction.

Which legends? The legend of a boy who defeated a great evil?

I disagree with this, however. Daphnes does need to exist as long as Hyrule does, but not necessarily as a result of the "binding" mechanic you suggest. Everything in Hyrule is preserved; likely he among it.

So what gives you the idea that the King wants to be involved with the new land...because its going to be Hyrule the Second? His dialogue at the end of the game seems to be against the very idea, especially his wish. He could have wished for anything, but he deliberately did what he did for good reason.

[Average Gamer]

The gods erase the land of their constituents in basically every world religion ever.

If I'm not mistaken, in the Bible God's aim was merely to get rid of the sinners, not erase the world. Daphnes wanted Hyrule to be utterly destroyed. You cannot deny that blunt fact.

"However, if all of the people of the kingdom were sealed, it would be the same as destroying it. Before the sealing, the gods informed those who had been chosen to create a new country to flee to the tall mountains."

summarized later:

"The gods left behind people to awaken Hyrule."

Daphnes puts an end to that though. He annihilates Hyrule with the Triforce. There's nothing left to awaken after that, and the people of the Great Sea didn't even remember Hyrule, so they certainly weren't going to be bringing it back.

Live for the future, rather than he, who lived with the broken dream of bringing back his sealed-away kingdom.

Yeah, the sealed-away kingdom of Hyrule. He's saying for the children to move on in life and not obsess over the past (represented by Hyrule in TWW). Making a new Hyrule would just be a case of living in the past.

These are not invalid interpretations of the quotes. The ending, as with most Zelda endings, is entirely open-ended because the creators don't want to restrict themselves to a timeline with each new game.

Lex, there's being open-ended and then there's just butchering the crap out of all meaning and context. You frequently do the latter, and whenever someone brings it up you freak out and deny everything, sometimes even making a pitiful attempt at accusing them of the very stuff they're calling you out on.

As for the timeline in general, I don't think that an overall timeline really exists. At least not until Nintendo finally comes out and reveals one. As far as I'm concerned, every effort will meet a problem and ultimately fall flat on its face.

[MikePetersSucks]

Good thing no one in LoZ, AoL, TMC, FSA, or ALttP calls it the chosen land of the gods; it's a title given to Hyrule when it was originally created by the gods at creation.

You're missing the point, as always. If it's not the Chosen Land of the Gods, it shouldn't have a connection to the Sacred Realm and the Triforce.

The words used are precisely "destroy" and "perish." Many flood myths say explicitly that the gods resolved to destroy the earth.

"destroy" and "perish" are being used in reference to Man and it's sinfulness, not the literal Earth itself. Context. Also, I specifically mentioned the Biblical Flood. The pagan ones you're referencing don't matter. (Unless you're trying to imply the Bible is a polytheistic work, in which case you are retarded).

"The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days."

My Bible says "40 days and 40 nights."

"However, if all of the people of the kingdom were sealed, it would be the same as destroying it. Before the sealing, the gods informed those who had been chosen to create a new country to flee to the tall mountains."

The game's pretty clear that the kingdom survives in its people. And time is really no item.

Yea, so? It was always the people that was important, not the land. The Goddesses were trying to save the mortals. Freezing them with Ganon's army would be the same as Ganon winning, as he sought their destruction.

1) "Among the myths passed down by the people, there is the following story." There are many myths passed down by the people.
2) "Even though the memory of the kingdom vanished, its legend survived blowing in the wind." Again, the legends survived. The idea that they all disappeared is pure fiction.

Context.

I call bull.

So you would rather that apparently everyone has miles-long chains that reach alllllllllll the way down to the surface floor, which would be the surface of Hyrule? When from the surface of Hyrule the water above is SO HIGH that you'd need to stack Hyrule Castle ontop of itself atleast three times, at best? And you're reaching the bottom of the sea with the clawshot you got from Dragon Roost? NO. That's ridiculous, even for you.

I disagree with this, however.

I see the importance of the Deku Tree's words is selective, for you.

The gods erase the land of their constituents in basically every world religion ever. That Hyrule's does too doesn't seem to pose any more problem to me than it does to the adherents to said religions.

Except all of them, like every Abrahamic religion that comes to mind.

"However, if all of the people of the kingdom were sealed, it would be the same as destroying it. Before the sealing, the gods informed those who had been chosen to create a new country to flee to the tall mountains."

summarized later:

"The gods left behind people to awaken Hyrule."

You're quoting the second statement out of context. It was stated by Ganondorf who was questioning the actions of the Gods. Basically, "Lol, why do you think they flooded the world and scattered your kind to a bunch of rocks? To awaken Hyrule or something? lolrite the gods abandoned u."

Live for the future, rather than he, who lived with the broken dream of bringing back his sealed-away kingdom.

That land will not be Hyrule, because Hyrule was the land that existed hundreds of years ago that Daphnes ruled over, the kingdom from OoT, and a new kingdom would be... a new kingdom, full of new people from a new generation.

If that's true, then why does the timeline, according to you, take us back to Hyrule, with the same landmarks, same peoples (down to the same big figures), same Triforce, and the same conflict between Ganon and the forces of Light at the expense of the common people? Doesn't that defeat the entire point of establishing a NEW future? It's just going to be more of the same for no reason.

[Average Gamer]

My Bible says "40 days and 40 nights."

Technically, it rained for forty days and forty nights. It took a while for the water to recede. Lex's argument is still wrong though. God was just killing sinners; Daphnes was erasing the entire land.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Think of a dish, remember? If I clean a dirty one and hand it off to you, would you know what I had eaten off of it? No, I washed it and erased any evidence of what used to be there.

Deluges are considerably more complicated than dishwashing.

The SR is mentioned in a few of these games, and considering the Triforce exists in the normal world after WW, its difficult to imagine how an SR somehow develops in this new land, if the SR was originally the place the goddesses left the world.

The Sacred Realm is mentioned, but Hyrule is not known as the sacred land connected to it in any of them. It is recalled as being said land in the past, but I think there's something of a difference there. The Sacred Realm is a parallel plane to the entire world, by my reckoning, but converges with the world in Hyrule. After the sages' seal, this ceases to be the case, and in ALttP the divide is fractured.

Originally what was intended

In the same dialogue, Daphnes says that Hyrule would never have been unsealed as long as Ganondorf remained sealed. So, no, I don't think raising the old Hyrule up was ever the gods' design.

Which legends? The legend of a boy who defeated a great evil?

Which is mentioned in the very first line of the game as only one among many legends.

So what gives you the idea that the King wants to be involved with the new land...

Nothing. I never suggested it at all.

If it's not the Chosen Land of the Gods, it shouldn't have a connection to the Sacred Realm and the Triforce.

The royal family possesses the Triforce, but that doesn't necessarily have to be because it is the chosen land of the gods.

You're quoting the second statement out of context.

Interpreting the context differently than you does not mean I'm quoting it out of context. The world does not revolve around LA and MPS.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 12 February 2009 - 02:08 AM.

[Impossible]

These posts are hardly worth responding to, but I'm going to point out how once again, you're being deliberately misleading and taking quotes out of context. Also, because MPS clearly demanded context, and clearly I have to give it, as that's really my core point. I do love how Lex is deliberately and knowingly taking quotes (including... bible quotes?!) out of context (a la the "ALttP is a sequel to LoZ" point) just to be misleading and show that he cares more about his timeline than the actual timeline.

"However, if all of the people of the kingdom were sealed, it would be the same as destroying it. Before the sealing, the gods informed those who had been chosen to create a new country to flee to the tall mountains."

What point do you think you're making here? Yes, they were chosen to create a new country (note: not kingdom) above the ocean. That's it. Nothing to do with Hyrule. I'm going to keep rubbing that shitty comment you made about how everything we say is just our interpretations extrapolating from the actual dialogue, because you are the fucking master of making up things that the game never even suggests. Sorry, there just isn't a single piece of evidence for HYRULE returning. HYRULE. No quotes, nothing, it's just you forcing your theory on to the text. And regardless of how you may interpret other evidence, that's irrelevant when the ending specifically contradicts the possibility of Hyrule coming back. So, for the record, there are zero explicit mentions of Hyrule returning and several explicit mentions of it not. Now, yes, things change when you start applying your own interpretations and theories to them, but before you even do that, from an objective standpoint, your theory simply fails. And factually, the above quote refers to the people who were chosen to migrate to the mountaintops and start anew.

You've conveniently fucking ignored, twice in a row now, everything I said about OoT and ALttP that is NOT about geography. OoT and ALttP have the same Hyrule. Not just physically, but figuratively. All the reasons why Hyrule was destroyed still exist in ALttP. It directly contradicts what the king says.

"The gods left behind people to awaken Hyrule."

LOL, this is why you had to drop the context point so quickly. So you admit you still have no fucking clue what you're talking about? Let's look at the REAL quote and not your biased bullshit, shall we?

What did King Hyrule say? That the gods sealed Hyrule?

That they saved people who would revive Hyrule?

How laughable...

1. The King did not say that. Ganondorf is mistaken. The king says that as long as Ganondorf was down below, Hyrule would never have woken from its "eternal sleep". He never says they were supposed to restore it. It was only the king's personal attachment, a part of him that still wanted to believe he could save his kingdom - until the ending, when he admits that he was wrong and regrets this. Of course, time and again, you take every fucking quote out of context, and ignore that the ending completely supersedes everything else. It is the final word on the entire subject. The order we learn things in makes this completely irrelevant.

2. Ganondorf isn't stating it as a serious possibility. He's ridiculing it. He immediately rejects the idea, and we know from the events of the ending that he was right to do so. This is the only quote in the game about the idea of unsealing Hyrule, and it is nullified by the events of the ending. The person who wants to revive Hyrule is Ganondorf. ALttP's Hyrule is just as much a revival of the Hyrule Ganondorf wants as the old one would be, and still gives Ganon everything the King prevented him from getting. Anyway, I digress. This quote has nothing to do with the Deku Tree's plan, as it's entirely about the old Hyrule. Neither did your first quote - or if it did, it sure as fuck was odd that they made no mention of Hyrule, and did not call it a kingdom.

So you're still on zero quotes that actually back up the Deku Tree idea or show that it was maintained as intent anywhere in the game. Don't think you have a hope in hell of tripping me up here, I just read the entire script of TWW in both languages and analysed it pretty closely.

I won't even dignify the stupidity of Lex's justification for the land not being "erased" with a response, because unlike him, I'd rather address the actual fucking point rather than throwing around these stupid distractions. So this is all I have to say on the matter. There is no time, ever, in any myth or real place, when a land was completely ERASED, and somehow every record of everything from that old land survived and was found. Flooded temporarily is not the same as erased by an explicit command that MUST occur based on what we know of the Triforce's power. And of course, you insist on hiding from every other problem with your archaeology idea. Weird, that was EXACTLY WHAT I SAID YOU WOULD DO. Written records didn't survive TWW. Period. The Triforce has unquestionable power, for fuck's sake. It did exactly what the king says, nothing more, nothing less: Hyrule was erased. No records could exist, even if other traces still do. ALttP is impossible.

The name doesn't freaking matter. It only matters to you because your overly-literal interpretation of the quote excludes all other possibilities.

...

...

Wow. I thought your attempt at using the word context was bad. Wow. Can I just... Holy shit. Yes. I'm being overly literal. That's me. By thoroughly analysing and discussing the themes and metaphors and context at play here, looking deep into what the king says and its significance to everything in the game... I am being overly literal. While you take every single word in the entire game as a stand-alone fact and refuse to ignore the surrounding context or the events that happen afterwards and their affect on those individual words. Yes, I have the literalist problem here. Because I'm not retarded enough to believe that every context-less word in the game can be judged as equally as a representation of intent and meaning as every other word, and instead consider what the human beings who made the game may have been thinking.

Excuse me while I go collapse in a fit of laughter. This timeline has just become a joke. It's comprised mostly of insanity and fan fiction that fly in the fact of intent now... I would say more, but I think my post on the concept of archaeology earlier really summed it up pretty well. MPS covered a fraction of it in his last post, he forgot how somehow they were supposed to find every single trace of old Hyrule by aimlessly dropping grappling hooks several miles long, despite the erasure of ANYTHING written and also of most things that aren't, and then rename everything after it. For no particular reason. Good fan fiction, though. Got some quotes there? Oh wait.

Edited by Impossible, 12 February 2009 - 02:32 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Deluges are considerably more complicated than dishwashing.

...in that they have a shitload more water. The metaphor he made is valid, regardless.

The Sacred Realm is mentioned, but Hyrule is not known as the sacred land connected to it in any of them. It is recalled as being said land in the past, but I think there's something of a difference there. The Sacred Realm is a parallel plane to the entire world, by my reckoning, but converges with the world in Hyrule. After the sages' seal, this ceases to be the case, and in ALttP the divide is fractured.

"your reckoning" isn't a valid source of information. All credible sources say the Sacred Realm is parallel to Hyrule, not the whole world. Facts, or get the hell out.

The royal family possesses the Triforce, but that doesn't necessarily have to be because it is the chosen land of the gods.

It doesn't change that you put games involving the Sacred Realm post-TWW in your timeline, so you're not really answering the problem, just dodging the responsibility of answering it.

Interpreting the context differently than you does not mean I'm quoting it out of context. The world does not revolve around LA and MPS.

Granted, but your interpretation is still out of context and therefore wrong.

[Lexxi Aileron]

...in that they have a shitload more water.

And that in this case water is flooding a physical space massive enough to house large buildings instead of dirt and grime.

All credible sources say the Sacred Realm is parallel to Hyrule, not the whole world. Facts, or get the hell out.

Quotes or you're wrong. Since you're the one making the positive claim (the Sacred Realm is parallel to Hyrule).

It doesn't change that you put games involving the Sacred Realm post-TWW in your timeline, so you're not really answering the problem, just dodging the responsibility of answering it.

I don't see it as a problem in the first place.

Granted, but your interpretation is still out of context and therefore wrong.

It's not out of context, it's just not what you infer from the context.

These posts are hardly worth responding to.

Of course, I was correct, Lex was incapable of dealing with half of my post, and he somehow expects nobody to point out how badly he's failing at addressing anyone else's arguments. It's too bad, he ignored most of the best parts of my post.

You're a fucking hypocrite.

Yes, they were chosen to create a new country (note: not kingdom) above the ocean. That's it. Nothing to do with Hyrule.

This is the Legend of Zelda series we're talking about, you realize.

The king says that as long as Ganondorf was down below, Hyrule would never have woken from its "eternal sleep". He never says they were supposed to restore it.

Right. Because they were never supposed to unseal it. Daphnes's wish didn't change that; it just made it impossible. That's precisely what I think the "left behind people to revive Hyrule" quote doesn't mean!

Since to unseal Hyrule from below the waves is Ganon's express goal as he himself states in his wish, the fact that he finds the gods supposed plan laughable should tell us that that's not what he's ridiculing in this scene. He's clearly talking about the actions of the people scattered on the islands above; he says so himself. And what actions do we know of that are taking place? THE DEKU TREE'S TERRAFORMING PROJECT. It's this that he finds laughable.

There is no time, ever, in any myth or real place, when a land was completely ERASED, and somehow every record of everything from that old land survived and was found.

"Finally, peace returns to Hyrule. This ends the story."
"The Master Sword sleeps forever."
"Ganon has been totally destroyed."
"The Dark World will vanish."
"Erase Hyrule."

Not everything has to be taken literally.

While you take every single word in the entire game as a stand-alone fact and refuse to ignore the surrounding context or the events that happen afterwards and their affect on those individual words.

No.

While you have a god-complex and believe you're always right, I believe that there is more than one acceptable interpretation of the game's ending. (Yes, that includes yours.)

That's not a refusal to look at the surrounding context; that's a refusal to be a bigoted ass and an openness to multiple possibilities (yes, that includes yours). And yes, that's the only excuse for being as talk-downish and close-minded as you are being.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 12 February 2009 - 03:26 AM.

[Average Gamer]

And that in this case water is flooding a physical space massive enough to house large buildings instead of dirt and grime.

Lex, it isn't being merely flooded. Daphnes wished for Hyrule to be erased.

Quotes or you're wrong. Since you're the one making the positive claim (the Sacred Realm is parallel to Hyrule).

Um, Lex, I'm pretty sure the Sacred Realm being parallel to Hyrule has been mentioned in numerous games. I can't stick around long enough to find a quote though.

It's not out of context, it's just not what you infer from the context.

Lol wut?

While you have a god-complex and believe you're always right, I believe that there is more than one acceptable interpretation of the game's ending.

I've seen you sporting a "god-complex" on ZU every now and then, so you don't exactly have a moral high ground here.

Edited by Average Gamer, 12 February 2009 - 03:28 AM.

[Impossible]

It's not out of context, it's just not what you infer from the context.

Yes, we infer something different to you in that we actually are observing the context rather than deliberately fucking with the intended meaning of a quote for our own needs.

I can't even see the point in responding to you while you ignore the main point of my posts in favour of stupid distractions. The thing is, when I don't respond to something you say, it's not that I don't have any way to counter it like you, it's that I already pre-empted it. I seem to be accurately predicting every dickish ploy and fallacious argument before you even make it, probably because you always do the same thing and NEVER LEARN.

Wait, I think I get Lex's current trick. He's trying to prove the biblical analogy by proving that evolution is a farce and the bible is truth. I mean, fair point, why would anything evolve into him?

[Lexxi Aileron]

Lex, it isn't being merely flooded. Daphnes wished for Hyrule to be erased.

Define "erase." Honestly, is it so impossible for something to be worded poetically in this series? Before it was preserved. Now that preservation has been undone. This is an instance of one line, no, one word, being taken literally, and a conclusion being derived merely from that single word. Isn't that bad?

Um, Lex, I'm pretty sure the Sacred Realm being parallel to Hyrule has been mentioned in numerous games.

Only after Ganon has transformed it into the Dark World and only in ALttP.

[Average Gamer]

Yes, we infer something different to you in that we actually are observing the context rather than deliberately fucking with the intended meaning of a quote for our own needs.

I wouldn't put it in quite that way, but I agree with this statement. Lex, in my opinion, you are trying to force the series to follow your theory instead of making a theory based on the series.

Define "erase."

Annihilated. It's gone Lex. Daphnes pwned it with the Triforce. This is blatantly obvious, and Daphnes was being quite clear when he said it.

Edited by Average Gamer, 12 February 2009 - 03:34 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Lex, in my opinion, you are trying to force the series to follow your theory instead of making a theory based on the series.

The series isn't explicit, Average Gamer. It never has been. There is no organized body of "canon" declared by the creators. The general stories are often recycled and usually the themes and depictions of icons change with each iteration. As such, any way to determine how the series works that is backed up by evidence is just as valid as any other. I am using evidence that Impossible doesn't use, but the fact that Impossible doesn't use it doesn't make my method invalid (as I am using material from the series to support it), although it might make my conclusions incorrect.

If Impossible wants to say "I disagree," then that's fine. Right now Impossible is saying "you're not taking it in context," which is only true if the context is absolutely and certifiably what he says it is. Again, it's not that explicit, otherwise there would be no room for disagreement.

I'm not trying to "force" anything. I'm trying to make use of the evidence. Impossible is as well. Both of us could be right. I'm willing to admit that. He's not. I think I'm onto something, I like the fact that I can use as much information as I can. I could be wrong, and I admit that. Impossible doesn't.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 12 February 2009 - 03:38 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

And that in this case water is flooding a physical space massive enough to house large buildings instead of dirt and grime.

Triforce = Wish = Shit is erased.

Also, do you know just how powerful a shitload of water like that coming down that fast, that hard would be, in a perfectly sealed off air pocket? That shit would CRUSH STONE, even without the Triforce wish.

Quotes or you're wrong. Since you're the one making the positive claim (the Sacred Realm is parallel to Hyrule).

Sorry, no, you're the one with the burden of proof here, as my side is the default maintained by TP, LTTP, OOT, and pretty much every game that alluded to the Sacred Realm by name.

Right. Because they were never supposed to unseal it. Daphnes's wish didn't change that; it just made it impossible. That's precisely what I think the "left behind people to revive Hyrule" quote doesn't mean!

Since to unseal Hyrule from below the waves is Ganon's express goal as he himself states in his wish, the fact that he finds the gods supposed plan laughable should tell us that that's not what he's ridiculing in this scene. He's clearly talking about the actions of the people scattered on the islands above; he says so himself. And what actions do we know of that are taking place? THE DEKU TREE'S TERRAFORMING PROJECT. It's this that he finds laughable.

....oh my god, wow. You're insane.

"Finally, peace returns to Hyrule. This ends the story."
"The Master Sword sleeps forever."
"Ganon has been totally destroyed."
"The Dark World will vanish."
"Erase Hyrule."

Not everything has to be taken literally.

Each game is a self-contained story, so says the Word of God.
Most people put LTTP as the last Master Sword game in their timeline.
Being totally destroyed doesn't exclude the possibility of resurrection or reincarnation.
The Dark World DID vanish (you can watch it happen).
Hyrule was erased. Deal with it.

While you have a god-complex and believe you're always right

Sorry, couldn't read any farther because of the irony of your arrogance.

[Average Gamer]

The series isn't explicit, Average Gamer. It never has been.

But you're seemingly trying to make it more convoluted and overcomplicated than the Metal Gear Solid series. Also, no offense, but you kind of tried to dodge the question. The series might not be explicit, but that doesn't mean you should mangle it to fit your theory.

I need to go to sleep. I just have one more thing to point out:

Ganon has been totally destroyed

That was the work of NoA. The Japanese text just said that Ganon "had fallen".

Edited by Average Gamer, 12 February 2009 - 03:40 AM.

[Impossible]

Lex is ignoring me again, hilarious. At least before he pretended to not be ignoring me by responding to fragments of my post - you guessed it, out of context. Now I get nothing?

Define "erase."

Well, since I know how you love literal definitions.

e⋅rase
verb, e⋅rased, e⋅ras⋅ing
to eliminate completely: She couldn't erase the tragic scene from her memory.

erase
verb [trans]
- remove all traces of
- destroy or obliterate (someone or something) so as to leave no trace

Is it just me, or is the common theme here the lack of any traces? Literal OR figurative. Literally, Hyrule is obliterated with nothing left - certainly no written records which would obviously be destroyed by water. Figuratively, well, the entire fucking ending, as we've pointed out a million times. The whole point is moving on from Hyrule, getting over the past, accept change, and walking forward to a new future. SO MOVE ON, GET OVER IT, ACCEPT THE CHANGE TO THE TIMELINE, AND ACTUALLY MAKE SOME PROGRESS.

Honestly, is it so impossible for something to be worded poetically in this series?

Yes. That entire scene, and the next scene, is filled with symbolism and a poetic sense of closure for Hyrule - the thing is, it's not just in literal, physical terms as you're pretending anyone is arguing. It is in both literal AND figurative terms. What you keep trying to forget using your stupid distractions is that there are two separate arguments here about Hyrule's return, and you're losing both of them as far as having evidence goes. Don't try to make this figurative, because you know fucking well you have NOTHING to stand on there and your only hope is to completely ignore the meaning and symbolism of the scene. As you're still doing.

Edited by Impossible, 12 February 2009 - 03:42 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Also, do you know just how powerful a shitload of water like that coming down that fast, that hard would be, in a perfectly sealed off air pocket? That shit would CRUSH STONE, even without the Triforce wish.

Like in the real world, right? Because, again, nothing has ever survived a flood.

Sorry, no, you're the one with the burden of proof here

I cannot prove a negative (I argue that nothing says that the Sacred Realm is parallel to Hyrule). Prove the positive.

Each game is a self-contained story, so says the Word of God.
Most people put LTTP as the last Master Sword game in their timeline.
Being totally destroyed doesn't exclude the possibility of resurrection or reincarnation.
The Dark World DID vanish (you can watch it happen).
Hyrule was erased. Deal with it.

Peace doesn't return, and never did according to the sequel.
AST doesn't exist?
How can something reincarnate when nothing exists to be reincarnated?
Where can I watch it? All I see is Hyrule after that point.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 12 February 2009 - 03:43 AM.

[Impossible]

I am using evidence that Impossible doesn't use, but the fact that Impossible doesn't use it doesn't make my method invalid (as I am using material from the series to support it), although it might make my conclusions incorrect.

Actually, no, see, you're missing the difference between us again. I'm not ignoring any evidence. In fact, I use some of the same quotes you used to use, like the "eternal sleep" one. I don't ignore evidence - in my document, I thoroughly dissect all of it. I take all of the game as a whole, you pick apart at random things based on what fits your timeline better.

If Impossible wants to say "I disagree," then that's fine. Right now Impossible is saying "you're not taking it in context," which is only true if the context is absolutely and certifiably what he says it is. Again, it's not that explicit, otherwise there would be no room for disagreement.

Right. Because I think the context is an entire game, and you think the context is nothing, except occasionally one or two words surrounding the word you're misquoting out of any context at all. Hell, just before I showed that your supposed evidence does nothing to help you when placed in context. So I might be wrong in believing that the context is "absolutely and certifiably"... an existing thing? That matters? That influences meaning? Which one is it?

I'm not trying to "force" anything. I'm trying to make use of the evidence. Impossible is as well. Both of us could be right. I'm willing to admit that. He's not. I think I'm onto something, I like the fact that I can use as much information as I can. I could be wrong, and I admit that. Impossible doesn't.

What the fuck are you on about? You haven't made a single concession before this post either. Don't take the moral high ground when you don't deserve one bit of it. Hell, at least I, in actually considering ALL OF THE EVIDENCE, treating it with the priority it deserves with respect to intent and the context it's placed in in the story (i.e. outside of the plot near the start, or at the center of the plot at the end), all things you refuse to consider, am completely able to accept that a new land was formed some time after TWW. Doesn't change the fact that it's impossible for it to be Hyrule, and that all the reasons why your fanfic explanations are a joke keep going on ignored.

But no, you're trying to "make use of the evidence", unless it disagrees with you or is actually important, then you have to butcher it instead. And your past posts already suggested that you pretty clearly believe the rest of the world is wrong and only your bizarre "findings" of "references" that supposedly tell us the REAL intent can be right (despite the fact that the intent is shown IN THE FUCKING PLOT OF THE GAME), so maybe reconsider who has the god complex. Yeah, you never try to "force" your theory. Not even your TP-inclusive single timeline, which I believe created a disturbance in the fabric of logic and reason so powerful that every baby born in that period of time is still crying about right now.

Yes, the guy who is now simply ignoring all of my points despite never having countered anything I said in the first place is absolutely not the one who believes he's just that much better than everyone. You've still refused to explain quite a few of the things that make your timeline ridiculous.

Oh, forgot about this.

You're a fucking hypocrite.

Wow, you just love proving my point, don't you? You just took two things I said completely out of context in order to change their meaning, despite the fact that I fully justified what I said. What's new? Meaning just doesn't matter to you, does it? Only how you can twist other peoples' words. In fact, you EDITED one of the quotes there so it would look like a stand-alone statement even though there was an entire post of response following it. AND, before you even made your stupid comment, I had pre-emptively written a paragraph explaining the difference between you ignoring the entire crux of my point, and me ignoring stupid distractions. I'm still responding to you, I'm just not responding to the same shit I already responded to or pre-empted, or the shit you're using as a pathetic distraction from the actual games. What's your defence for changing my post going to be? The same one you use for TWW quotes? "That's just YOUR interpretation of the context. Of your post."

Meanwhile, you've been ignoring my points from the beginning, and calling me a hypocrite doesn't magically change that. It just means that from now on, any remaining civility or respect I was maintaining in my posts has been clearly shown to be undeserved, because you deserve to be spoken to like an immature child with a tendency to habitually lie and knowingly, DELIBERATELY pull quotes out of context while expecting us all to just ignore the fact that you knew damn well that you were manipulating them. You use insulting, ad hominem attacks based on doing EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING YOU DO, that is, taking me out of context. An accusation you then immediately denied again, as if to prove that you're lying. Apparently you've confused my criticisms of you with the crap from this post, because you don't know the difference between real (if profanity heavy, just because I'm sick of you never learning and doing the same thing over and over again whether we're civil or not) criticism and insulting someone based on a twisted version of what they actually said.

Like in the real world, right? Because, again, nothing has ever survived a flood.

Because Zelda is just like the real world. Because the real world has examples of times when someone used the power of the gods to explicitly erase the land. The thing is, the Triforce has no power to judge how to execute a wish. It does exactly what it's told, verbatim. When did something like that happen in real life? Not everything has to be taken literally, except for wishes on the Triforce... Meanwhile, you take every other quote in the series with a stupid amount of literalism.

Made way too many edits to this, just read it again. (And another time, had to clarify some things.)

Edited by Impossible, 12 February 2009 - 07:08 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Like in the real world, right? Because, again, nothing has ever survived a flood.

No flood has had such a huge, magically preserved air pocket. But it's fundamental physics. That much water, at that speed and pressure in a perfectly sealed off air bubble would CRUSH EVERYTHING TO FUCKING DUST. I know Hyrule doesn't follow normal physics, but that's the point: You can't use real life floods, or other mythological floods, for this scenario. None of that applies here.

I cannot prove a negative (I argue that nothing says that the Sacred Realm is parallel to Hyrule). Prove the positive.

You could prove that the Sacred Realm is positive to the world beyond Hyrule.

Peace doesn't return, and never did according to the sequel.
AST doesn't exist?
How can something reincarnate when nothing exists to be reincarnated?
Where can I watch it? All I see is Hyrule after that point.

lolwut?
AST's canonicity is arguable at best, and it's so narmy anyway I doubt it'd matter.
Buddhism.
The credits. You know, where that Dark World turns into happy hills and valleys? Yea.

Not even your TP-inclusive single timeline, which I believe created a disturbance in the fabric of logic and reason so powerful that every baby born in that period of time is still crying about right now.

And we shall call them...the Midwich Cuccoos.

Also, Lex, I like how you completely don't reply to a lot of the massive new assholes that have been ripped in your statements.

[Impossible]

To Raien's mysteriously vanished but altogether true statement about the pointlessness of all this: I'm at least going to call him out when he takes a few words out of context FROM THE REST OF THE SAME LINE IT'S IN. Let alone from the entire game like he normally does. Or from my posts.

And as your sig points out way too well, there are a million other auxiliary arguments we're not even getting to here - just from this particular topic of TWW, the evidence is pretty clearly stacked against his one quote. Especially considering the "poetic" implications and figurative meaning that Lex was kind enough to remind us about, which are constantly permeating the actual story of TWW, and make the intent painfully clear in the ending (which is naturally the most important part of the game for anything on this subject, as it is the final word on it). But what about the fact that the state of the Triforce is messed up even worse than on the Child Timeline (where it is stupid as hell to suggest the Triforce will permanently remain as it was after TP), because there's no chance for AoL's backstory to happen? Or the fact that there effectively still needs to be a second IW event to explain how FSA's Ganon got the Triforce? Considering that means the only problems that could possibly exist with the Child Old Story Timeline are actually even less logical here, there's no way in which his theory makes any sense. How about the way the Knights of Hyrule still exist long after OoT, the supposed IW? Meh, who cares.

Also, Lex uses the "LA isn't the center of the world wah wah wah" argument to justify the fact that NOBODY believes his insane claims like the one about Ganondorf referring to the Deku Tree, but he conveniently ignores the fact that there are several posters here who actually have similar timelines to him, or at least ones with games after TWW. And for some reason, none of them are sympathising because they don't want to be associated with the kinds of arguments he's using. There's no huge bias here, Lex just has *cough* a god complex.

Edited by Impossible, 12 February 2009 - 07:40 AM.

[Arturo]

Spam deleted...

I have left the last post because it actually says something more than "Lex is put-a-hardly-original-adjective-here".

Also, Lex, quote-mining is against Rule 1. You've all infringed the rules here. None of you will be suspended, but I want to see you all much more calmed for a looooooooooong time.


Don't try make me angry.

Don't try if you don't want you member account to be erased. As in completely annihilate, you know?

[Raien]

I think I've been quite good holding in my pent-up anger over the course of this topic; in fact, I've been finding it quite amusing watching Impossible and MPS getting stressed, whereas Lex just calmly repeats his points over and over like an automated device. For every new slant that Impossible takes on a point to try and get Lex to understand, Lex just hits replay, "Floods don't destroy old relics/landmarks, so some archeologists could dig up the bottom of the Great Sea". It's funny because I remember myself in this exact same position two years ago.

Anyway, sorry for the random bit of spam, Arturo.

Edited by Raien, 12 February 2009 - 10:43 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Was worth the stress relief, imo.

[Impossible]

I think I've been quite good holding in my pent-up anger over the course of this topic; in fact, I've been finding it quite amusing watching Impossible and MPS getting stressed, whereas Lex just calmly repeats his points over and over like an automated device. For every new slant that Impossible takes on a point to try and get Lex to understand, Lex just hits replay, "Floods don't destroy old relics/landmarks, so some archeologists could dig up the bottom of the Great Sea". It's funny because I remember myself in this exact same position two years ago.

Anyway, sorry for the random bit of spam, Arturo.

This is why I was calling him a hypocrite, though. He ignores any evidence thrown at him, while falsely accusing me of not accepting or addressing evidence that seems to conflict with my theory. Everyone here knows that I'm the last goddamn person who's going to do that, considering I wrote a massive Word document discussing every bit of evidence anyone could find for any theory, and actually interpreting it rationally and in context. And since he actually then called me a hypocrite for being the one supposedly ignoring evidence (which everyone else can see was because he took me out of context), when he was the actual hypocrite, I think that makes him some kind of... double hypocrite.

It was for the precise reason that Lex merely hits "replay" that I couldn't bear to respond to every damn repetition - I had already pre-empted everything and said all that needed to be said in a span of about two of three posts. All that was left after that was to repeatedly point out all the things he was either ignoring or butchering. So for the rest of this argument, I refer you back to those posts, and then to Lex's following post, and then to those again, and then Lex's next post, and so on. Should give you a pretty good idea.

[Showsni]

People get so involved in niggling pointless details that it's hard to tell what you're even trying to say any more. So, is this argument:
1. This house believes a new Hyrule can arise after TWW
vs.
2. Hyrule is gone for ever! No more games after TWW! (Except PH.)
?

Okay, personally, I think the intent of Daphnes and the game is pretty clear; living in the past is worthless, it's time to move on and accept the loss of Hyrule. It's not coming back.

If you want to try and argue against that, you're going to need more than the Deku Tree's side quest to help you. We have a wish on the triforce here, after all. You'll want to look into quotes like "The Triforce will grant the wishes in the heart and mind of the person who touches it. ... The stronger the wish, the more powerful the Triforce's exp​ression of that wish. Ganon's wish was to conquer the world. That wish changed the Golden Land to the Dark World. Ganon was building up his power here so he could conquer the Light World and make his wish come completely true." and try to argue that the wish in the King's heart was different to his voiced wish, or that the wish wasn't very strong and thus the triforce couldn't entirely complete it (as in Ganon's case here; his wish is never fulfilled.) You'd probably want to bring up the king's death, and argue that wishes only last as long as the triforce bearer lives. Stuff like that.

[Impossible]

The wish was a single event, though. The King's death isn't going to suddenly reverse everything that he wished for from ever having happened. Hyrule was already erased, and no record could survive what happened there, period. No rational argument can suggest otherwise. Ever seen a piece of paper come out of being crushed by the entire ocean? The king may not have the power to enforce any wishes after his death, but his Triforce wish is a past event that has already happened. Somebody else would have to get the Triforce and wish for Hyrule to come back again to change that.

[Average Gamer]

and try to argue that the wish in the King's heart was different to his voiced wish, or that the wish wasn't very strong and thus the triforce couldn't entirely complete it (as in Ganon's case here; his wish is never fulfilled.)

I just want to bring this up; though the Triforce didn't actually grant Ganon's wish in full in ALttP, he ultimately fulfilled it anyway via the Agahnim method. Granted, he hadn't corrupted the land as he may have saw fit to do, but he had eliminated the king and the nobles while taking control of the military. For all intents and purposes, Ganon was master of the Light World.

As far as the vanishing of the Dark World goes, it was probably because of the nature of Ganon's wish. Ganon wished to rule the world. The Sacred Realm fell under his power and served him because of that wish, and it became corrupted as a side effect simply because of the evil in Ganon's heart. Because Ganon was dead, he could no longer rule over anything, and the Sacred Realm could not serve him. Thus the Dark World had no further purpose for existing, and Ganon's empire would surely crumble. Additionally, the Triforce seems to have already accepted Link as its new master, so it might just be wiping the slate for him, as though it were cleaning out an office for a new guy after the old one left.

Daphnes' wish is not about ruling and isn't centered around himself. He just wants Hyrule to be annihilated, which it is. Killing Daphnes would do nothing to change that, since Hyrule would still be gone by that point, and Hyrule being gone isn't directly connected to Daphnes like the Dark World serving Ganon. There's also the matter of Daphnes wishing for others to benefit from the wish while apparently wanting to die (sharing the same fate as Ganondorf). Because he cleared that up and the wish is actually focused on others, his death in that case may not have any effect on his wish.