323 replies to this topic

[Hero of Legend]

Link had to prove himself in the Tower of the Gods in order to wield the Master Sword, and take his place as the chosen one.

But like I said, so did every other Link - not in the Tower of the Gods, of course, but in some way. Even TP Link had to pass a test to get the Master Sword. From this we learn it is not the act of passing the test that makes Link chosen; it is his nature as a chosen one that enables him to pass the test.

You are enforcing what I just stated. We are led to believe he is dead, but he is not, simple as that.

Ah, but if that's true, why can't we say the same thing about the execution scene in TP? Ganondorf did not die, nor did he even try to escape, so we can only assume he was never in any real danger of dying.

[Duke Serkol]

I don't think the triforce left the sacred realm during TP physically, but the three chosen ones 'drew their powers from' or 'were bound to' their respective triangle. This way we can say the triforce never left the realm and yet the three in TP used the triforce pieces' power.

Uh... that's what I said. And what we were debating. But hey, glad to see yet another person who thinks so.

[NM87]

But like I said, so did every other Link - not in the Tower of the Gods, of course, but in some way. Even TP Link had to pass a test to get the Master Sword. From this we learn it is not the act of passing the test that makes Link chosen; it is his nature as a chosen one that enables him to pass the test.

I am not so sure that other Links other than WW needed to prove themselves. OOT We are told OOT Link is the chosen one from the start of the adventure. TP Link is told he is the chosen one right after the forest temple, and he draws the Master Sword without having to do anything. ALTTP Link is the hero in the bloodline of the Knights of Hyrule, who is going to fulfill the prophecy of the Legendary Hero. OOX Link is a chosen one, and again we know from the start. I am unsure of LOZ/AOL Link because we don’t discover the mark on his hand until his sixteenth birthday, which could prove he was chosen from the beginning as well. Its possible I am not too keen on your reasoning for why any other Link had to prove themselves, maybe you could elaborate.

Ah, but if that's true, why can't we say the same thing about the execution scene in TP? Ganondorf did not die, nor did he even try to escape, so we can only assume he was never in any real danger of dying.

Oh, you are a tricky one! Ganondorf in TP was being executed because it was a punishment for taking over Hyrule, not that he was so beaten that we thought he was dead. They are two totally different situations, in which we cannot apply the same rules. Also, take into account that in the player mind, they know that Ganondorf does not die here, since the sages inform us (right before the scene) hat Ganondorf is still alive. So while watching the scene we see the sword stab him, but we already know he is not dead.

TP Ganondorf allowed a sword to pierce his flesh and leave a wound, which he would have prevented. In OOT, he was simply beaten for the time being, which he did try to prevent - by fighting back. I am sure in both instances Ganondorf would have prevented his defeat if he was able to. He would have stopped the sword in TP, and would have killed Link in OOT if Link had not the power to defeat him.

[NM87]

I don't think the triforce left the sacred realm during TP physically, but the three chosen ones 'drew their powers from' or 'were bound to' their respective triangle. This way we can say the triforce never left the realm and yet the three in TP used the triforce pieces' power.

Uh... that's what I said. And what we were debating. But hey, glad to see yet another person who thinks so.

I think Ize was here debating for some time now, he was here since page 2 I beleive.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yeah, isn't it... *eyes the GameBoy Advance game featuring a mystical force that can make one like a god and is represented by a golden triangle*

Are you seriously comparing a single triangle that features absolutely NO traits of the Triforce to an ambiguously unnamed crest mark that in every other way is exactly like a Triforce piece?

Like I keep saying, it is possible that the three have a connection to the very Triforce without physically possessing it. Alternatively, the Goddesses could each (hence the different triangles on their hands) have conferred their power to one of the three. Essentially that would make them living, breathing Triforces. And don't come and tell me that's not possible. It's the Gods. They can inbue their power in anything they please.

Yea, but why go through all the trouble? If the Goddesses are gonna bother, why not just give them the damned Triforce pieces? It's not like they haven't granted Triforce pieces without the owner knowing before.

mm... I should point out that the Bullblins are looking for a person with the crest, though. At least, they check the back of the hands of the kids, though they conveniently forget Link (not that it matters since he's captured right afterwards anyway). Unfortunately, that is one scene that's never elaborated upon in the latter game. I don't think it tells us anything much about Ganondorf's motives either, since this search works with both Triforce pieces and chosen ones.

Right, but the whole "Ganondorf isn't looking for Link/Zelda's marks" was one of the only arguments against Triforce pieces. Occam's Razor.

Not necessarily. What I was saying, is that it wouldn't be the first time we had a new Triforce-like divine power.

The Light Force is barely Triforce-like, and it's not really divine anyway.

He also wouldn’t have let himself be inflicted with such a mortal wound at his execution…he would have escaped.

Just because he has the Triforce of Power doesn't mean he can just break free of any bindings, especially one made by the Sages.

One has to have a Triforce to be chosen? LOZ Link doesn’t’ have a Triforce and he is a chosen one. WW Link was never really chosen, he had to prove himself, which is why the gods were at first reluctant. He also didn’t have any Triforce piece until he had collected the fragments.

Read the quote better, he specifically said having a Triforce piece WITHIN YOUR BODY, not merely in your possession.

Just another point of interest to mull over - for the Wii version Link's crest is on his right hand while Ganondorf and Zelda's crest glow on their left hand...

Because everything in the effing game is flipped over.

And I don't think his deleted final speech should be canon.

Why not?

and NM87, get the knot out of your panties and simmer down, you're being a hypocritical, rude, asshole.

[Marty]

I've started playing again and am going to take notes. I should be able to beat the game over the weekend as my exams will be finished for this year so hopefully it'll clarify a few items.

[Hero of Legend]

I am not so sure that other Links other than WW needed to prove themselves. OOT We are told OOT Link is the chosen one from the start of the adventure. TP Link is told he is the chosen one right after the forest temple, and he draws the Master Sword without having to do anything. ALTTP Link is the hero in the bloodline of the Knights of Hyrule, who is going to fulfill the prophecy of the Legendary Hero. OOX Link is a chosen one, and again we know from the start. I am unsure of LOZ/AOL Link because we don’t discover the mark on his hand until his sixteenth birthday, which could prove he was chosen from the beginning as well. Its possible I am not too keen on your reasoning for why any other Link had to prove themselves, maybe you could elaborate.

Consider this; did TWW Link need to prove himself to be able to physically wield the Master Sword, or did he just need to prove that he was a true Hero so that he could go to Hyrule and get it? The latter is a fact, the former speculation without any real precedence. Now consider TP Link; he could not just walk into the Temple of Time and get the Master Sword - he needed to pass the test of the keepers. The same could be said for any Link. In ALttP (and OoT), he needed to retrieve the pedants, etc. OoT even says outright Link was not ready to become the Hero of Time, and we agree that does not mean he was not chosen.

Oh, you are a tricky one! Ganondorf in TP was being executed because it was a punishment for taking over Hyrule, not that he was so beaten that we thought he was dead. They are two totally different situations, in which we cannot apply the same rules.

I should notify you that it was I who originally pointed out the OoT-references in that scene to FDL. But besides that, I'm not convinced the scenes differ that much in terms of the ideas conveyed to the player. Ganondorf is apparently dead, then comes back, and turns into a demon (albeit only partially in TP). In that respect, they are no different.

Also, take into account that in the player mind, they know that Ganondorf does not die here, since the sages inform us (right before the scene) hat Ganondorf is still alive. So while watching the scene we see the sword stab him, but we already know he is not dead.

Actually, that's not correct. The Sages speculate that Ganondorf's evil power has been passed on to Zant, but it is Zant himself who, at the end of the game, reveals that Ganondorf is still alive. You could argue, given your knowledge of the Zelda mythos, that it was obvious that Ganondorf did not die, but one could also make that same argument about OoT's ending - such arguments don't change the fact that Nintendo used these scenes as plot devices to surprise new gamers who did not know that Ganondorf would survive.

TP Ganondorf allowed a sword to pierce his flesh and leave a wound, which he would have prevented. In OOT, he was simply beaten for the time being, which he did try to prevent - by fighting back. I am sure in both instances Ganondorf would have prevented his defeat if he was able to. He would have stopped the sword in TP, and would have killed Link in OOT if Link had not the power to defeat him.

Yes, you are probably right, but I find it unlikely that Ganondorf would have destroyed his own castle if he thought he had any other choice. In TP it was not an action of his part that brought ruin on him. Moreover, to argue that he had full control of the ToP, in spite of Zelda's words in OoT, or to deny that it does suspend his life (of which there are ample examples) is to ignore evidence in favor of your theory, which is generally considered to be an unhealthy practice.

Right, but the whole "Ganondorf isn't looking for Link/Zelda's marks" was one of the only arguments against Triforce pieces. Occam's Razor.

Right.

The Light Force is barely Triforce-like, and it's not really divine anyway.

Oh, it is most definitely divine, and connected to the Triforce too! At least, that is if PH is to be believed. Remember the Force Gem puzzles in the Palace of The Ocean King? Granted, puzzles were never the most foolproof of evidence. Nonetheless, life force that is shared by gods is divine power.

Indeed, one could even argue TP has a shadow of it...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 20 May 2008 - 02:43 PM.

[FDL]

I'm not going get too into this, HoL and MPS have done a pretty good job so far, but I will say a few things they haven't. Plus, I'm obligated to respond to the hypocrisy directed at me.

There you go doing exactly what you accuse me of doing - assuming/interpreting the wrong way. He was in a rage and didn't expect Link and Zelda to escape the castle in time - but wait, you will probably tell me there isn't any proof of him thinking that, although you get to say he didn’t think the Triforce of Power would save him.

So I'm "interpreting it in the wrong way", am I? You're a hypocrite for saying that, and questioning my integrity(if you can call it that) doesn't make you correct at all. In fact, you just seem like a big baby. Oh, and in case you weren't aware of why I'm saying that, claiming I'm "interpreting it wrong" means you think my opinion is wrong, which is what you've been accusing me of doing.

Anyway, Ganondorf would not have destroyed his castle unless he believed he was dying, that much is clear. If a robber was in your house and you thought you could knock him out, would you blow up your house and then attempt to put him out of comission? No, you wouldn't. Furthermore, Ganondorf outright stated he was "beaten", which would mean in this context that he believed he would be unable to defeat Link. If he could turn into Ganon at will, why would he even claim to be "beaten"? And why would Zelda say he was using the last of his strength?

...ok. Got it. Whatever you say, as always.

Alright then, just imagine I said "maybe", "possibly" and "If I was correct about any of this" before everything. That better, you child? Talking in certain terms about all this started with you and DS, so I don't see why you're bothered by me using that same language.

This is after Link had proven himself worthy to be the chosen hero at the Tower of the Gods.

Way to gloss over my actual point. You "divine prank" folks claim that Ganondorf being considered "chosen" to bear that crest means that he had to have been given it by the gods and that he could not have found it himself. However, TWW Link finds the actual piece of the Triforce which is later "bestowed" on him, thus making the "divine prank" point null and void. Or, to appease you, I guess I should be saying "might make it null and void maybe".

TP Ganondorf allowed a sword to pierce his flesh and leave a wound, which he would have prevented. In OOT, he was simply beaten for the time being, which he did try to prevent - by fighting back. I am sure in both instances Ganondorf would have prevented his defeat if he was able to. He would have stopped the sword in TP, and would have killed Link in OOT if Link had not the power to defeat him.

The other stuff has been covered by HoL, MPS and I before so I won't go into them but I will respond to this. You are missing my point entirely. My whole point is that Ganondorf could not control the power of the gods even after he had it for seven years. The Ganondorf of TP, who was seemingly stopped long before the time he is battled in the other timeline, wouldn't necessarily have enough control over it that would allow him to break free as he did after he was mortally wounded. It's the exact same thing that happened in OoT. But I'm sure you won't respond to this anyway, you'll just complain that I'm claiming this is all fact, so I'm not sure why I bothered...Oh well, why not.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 20 May 2008 - 05:07 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Are you seriously comparing a single triangle that features absolutely NO traits of the Triforce to an ambiguously unnamed crest mark that in every other way is exactly like a Triforce piece?

Yeah, of course it bears no similarities at all. It's not like it was said to grant wishes and make one akin to a God. Clearly the enormous amount of people debating whether the two could be the same or not were really all impersonated by a single troll. Myself included.
Look, I run out of sarcasm so I'll just ask the question: did you actually play Minish Cap (or read what the characters in it say)?

Yea, but why go through all the trouble? If the Goddesses are gonna bother, why not just give them the damned Triforce pieces? It's not like they haven't granted Triforce pieces without the owner knowing before.

I don't give a crap why (or rather I do, but only secondarily), I do not try to second guess the Gods; I merely observe the facts and form my opinion, and the facts are that the Power of the Gods present in TP does not behave like the Triforce normally does. Therefore, IF it is the Triforce at least something in the way people were given (and deprived of) its power must be different.

He also wouldn’t have let himself be inflicted with such a mortal wound at his execution…he would have escaped.

Just because he has the Triforce of Power doesn't mean he can just break free of any bindings, especially one made by the Sages.

Except when he suddenly can moments later, right?

And I don't think his deleted final speech should be canon.

Why not?

Because they removed it. We can't tell, unfortunately, whether they did purely out of stylistical reasoning or because they decided something in that speech was at odds with the story they ultimately wanted to convey
For one thing, the concept prophesized by Ganondorf that once another good person chosen to wield the power of the gods appears two more will do in response, and conflict will arise among them again, is not something that has explicitly come to pass in any games already available to us (not in those exact terms at least), regardless of what we believe the power of the gods he speaks of to be. So it could be that they either are planning a game in which it does and did not want to confuse us by referncing it ahead of time, or meant to reference games that do not exactly correspond to that prophecy (like ALttP) and therefore took it out. It really is impossible to tell.

Anyway, I would like to apologize to anyone (not just MPS) that might be offended by the tone in this post. In my defence, I'm only responding to the attitude that has been thrown at me (in particular what ticked me off was the "Are you seriously comparing" part)

[NM87]

Read the quote better, he specifically said having a Triforce piece WITHIN YOUR BODY, not merely in your possession.

What is this difference? Since when where they two different things? Owning a piece or having it in your body, when was this distinction made?

So I'm "interpreting it in the wrong way", am I? You're a hypocrite for saying that, and questioning my integrity(if you can call it that) doesn't make you correct at all. In fact, you just seem like a big baby. Oh, and in case you weren't aware of why I'm saying that, claiming I'm "interpreting it wrong" means you think my opinion is wrong, which is what you've been accusing me of doing.

“Okay, I'm trying to be patient with you guys but that's just stupid.” Just like I said, everyone else is wrong but you, and if they say different, then they’re hypocrites.

Anyway, Ganondorf would not have destroyed his castle unless he believed he was dying, that much is clear. If a robber was in your house and you thought you could knock him out, would you blow up your house and then attempt to put him out of comission? No, you wouldn't. Furthermore, Ganondorf outright stated he was "beaten", which would mean in this context that he believed he would be unable to defeat Link. If he could turn into Ganon at will, why would he even claim to be "beaten"? And why would Zelda say he was using the last of his strength?

After he was weakened in the battle, he used his strength to bring the tower down, and then transformed into Ganon out of pure evil/hatred/power when his last ditch efforts had failed. By saying he was beaten, he could simply mean that Link…had beaten him.

“The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm. I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world. Thus, Ganondorf the Evil King will vanish from Hyrule.”

The goal of the final battle was to get Ganondorf back into the SR because they knew he could not be defeated. If this was not the case, Link could just kill him. Zelda and the sages knew they had to seal him away because he could not be killed with a Triforce, so Zelda has no reason to think he is dead.

Alright then, just imagine I said "maybe", "possibly" and "If I was correct about any of this" before everything. That better, you child? Talking in certain terms about all this started with you and DS, so I don't see why you're bothered by me using that same language.

Trash-talking is a device that one hides behind to make his argument look better by downgrading another. Personally, I think its funny how you tell us all our arguments hold no water and that yours are absolute and supported by the text. Its sad really.

Way to gloss over my actual point. You "divine prank" folks claim that Ganondorf being considered "chosen" to bear that crest means that he had to have been given it by the gods and that he could not have found it himself. However, TWW Link finds the actual piece of the Triforce which is later "bestowed" on him, thus making the "divine prank" point null and void. Or, to appease you, I guess I should be saying "might make it null and void maybe".

Anytime someone has pieced together a Triforce, the Triforce itself was already in Hyrule with a reason it was broken. Ganondorf could not have found a Triforce in the way WW Link did because it wasn’t in Hyrule, and wasn’t discovered in the first place. Your statement only works if Ganondorf entered the SR before the events of TP. If Ganondorf had found the Triforce before TP, people would know, since him owning a Triforce, or the Triforce, means the end for Hyrule.

I'd like to add that Ganondorf was already chosen by the gods while Link had to prove himself. You claim Ganonodrf found the Triforce of Power, then was chosen by the Gods, and then compare that to WW Link. WW Link had proven himself to be a worthy hero, then he found the Triforce of Courage. Ganondorf was chosen from the beggining in TP.

You are missing my point entirely. My whole point is that Ganondorf could not control the power of the gods even after he had it for seven years. The Ganondorf of TP, who was seemingly stopped long before the time he is battled in the other timeline, wouldn't necessarily have enough control over it that would allow him to break free as he did after he was mortally wounded. It's the exact same thing that happened in OoT.

What does Ganondorf not being able to control the power of the Gods have to do with TP? He gets stabbed…receives his power…breaks free. How much control of pure power do you need to break chains and survive a wound? He receives the power right after he is stabbed. “He had the power before” - doesn’t make sense because if he did then he would conquer Hyrule easily, and the sages would know he had it.

Edited by NM87, 20 May 2008 - 09:59 PM.

[NM87]

Consider this; did TWW Link need to prove himself to be able to physically wield the Master Sword, or did he just need to prove that he was a true Hero so that he could go to Hyrule and get it? The latter is a fact, the former speculation without any real precedence. Now consider TP Link; he could not just walk into the Temple of Time and get the Master Sword - he needed to pass the test of the keepers. The same could be said for any Link. In ALttP (and OoT), he needed to retrieve the pedants, etc. OoT even says outright Link was not ready to become the Hero of Time, and we agree that does not mean he was not chosen.

I wasn’t claiming he needed to prove he could physically wield it, I was stating the second half of what you said - that he needed to prove his worth. TP/ALTTP/OOX/OOT Link don’t need to prove their worth at all, its pretty clear they were chosen from the beginning.

Also, Link (in any particular game) having to pass a test to get the Master Sword doesn’t mean is he trying to prove his worth to be chosen. What I am saying is that the Links are always initially chosen by the gods to be the hero.

I should notify you that it was I who originally pointed out the OoT-references in that scene to FDL. But besides that, I'm not convinced the scenes differ that much in terms of the ideas conveyed to the player. Ganondorf is apparently dead, then comes back, and turns into a demon (albeit only partially in TP). In that respect, they are no different.

This theory only works if Ganondorf had the power of the gods prior to the execution scene, in order for the Triforce to activate and save him. I am saying that the goddesses grant him that power after he is stabbed.

Actually, that's not correct. The Sages speculate that Ganondorf's evil power has been passed on to Zant, but it is Zant himself who, at the end of the game, reveals that Ganondorf is still alive. You could argue, given your knowledge of the Zelda mythos, that it was obvious that Ganondorf did not die, but one could also make that same argument about OoT's ending - such arguments don't change the fact that Nintendo used these scenes as plot devices to surprise new gamers who did not know that Ganondorf would survive.

We knew he did not die since he was sent into the Mirror and we don’t need Zant to remind us.

Yes, you are probably right, but I find it unlikely that Ganondorf would have destroyed his own castle if he thought he had any other choice. In TP it was not an action of his part that brought ruin on him. Moreover, to argue that he had full control of the ToP, in spite of Zelda's words in OoT, or to deny that it does suspend his life (of which there are ample examples) is to ignore evidence in favor of your theory, which is generally considered to be an unhealthy practice.

Maybe this topic was so sidetracked we lost knowledge of what I am claiming. It is simply that the crests do not mean they have a Triforce, it means they have the power of the goddesses without owning a Triforce. Ganondorf receives his as a chosen one, while Link and Zelda receive theirs later on.

[CID Farwin]

Read the quote better, he specifically said having a Triforce piece WITHIN YOUR BODY, not merely in your possession.

What is this difference? Since when where they two different things? Owning a piece or having it in your body, when was this distinction made?

In TWW. It's a fun game, you should play it sometime. If you have, I suggest playing it again. Link gets all the Triforce shards and assembles a piece, but it isn't until the whole cut-scene where Link presents his piece before the Gods and it enters his body that he is considered 'chosen' and named hero. This is when he's proven himself to be the hero, not when he goes through the Tower of the Gods.

After he was weakened in the battle, he used his strength to bring the tower down, and then transformed into Ganon out of pure evil/hatred/power when his last ditch efforts had failed. By saying he was beaten, he could simply mean that Link…had beaten him.

“The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm. I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world. Thus, Ganondorf the Evil King will vanish from Hyrule.”

The goal of the final battle was to get Ganondorf back into the SR because they knew he could not be defeated. If this was not the case, Link could just kill him. Zelda and the sages knew they had to seal him away because he could not be killed with a Triforce, so Zelda has no reason to think he is dead.

Then why does she say that he's dead, if he has no reason? When was the last time you actually played any of these games? That's a good question for everyone here.

Trash-talking is a device that one hides behind to make his argument look better by downgrading another. Personally, I think its funny how you tell us all our arguments hold no water and that yours are absolute and supported by the text. Its sad really.

What the Heck is this condescending crap!!????!?!? It's not even directed at me and I'm insulted.

Way to gloss over my actual point. You "divine prank" folks claim that Ganondorf being considered "chosen" to bear that crest means that he had to have been given it by the gods and that he could not have found it himself. However, TWW Link finds the actual piece of the Triforce which is later "bestowed" on him, thus making the "divine prank" point null and void. Or, to appease you, I guess I should be saying "might make it null and void maybe".

Anytime someone has pieced together a Triforce, the Triforce itself was already in Hyrule with a reason it was broken. Ganondorf could not have found a Triforce in the way WW Link did because it wasn’t in Hyrule, and wasn’t discovered in the first place. Your statement only works if Ganondorf entered the SR before the events of TP. If Ganondorf had found the Triforce before TP, people would know, since him owning a Triforce, or the Triforce, means the end for Hyrule.

Um, that had nothing to do with his argument.

I'd like to add that Ganondorf was already chosen by the gods while Link had to prove himself. You claim Ganonodrf found the Triforce of Power, then was chosen by the Gods, and then compare that to WW Link. WW Link had proven himself to be a worthy hero, then he found the Triforce of Courage. Ganondorf was chosen from the beggining in TP.

No, I said earlier in this post: Link only proves himself to be a hero worthy of the Triforce after he gets the Triforce, in that scene where he presents it to the Gods.

What does Ganondorf not being able to control the power of the Gods have to do with TP? He gets stabbed…receives his power…breaks free. How much control of pure power do you need to break chains and survive a wound? He receives the power right after he is stabbed. “He had the power before” - doesn’t make sense because if he did then he would conquer Hyrule easily, and the sages would know he had it.

He would conquer, unless they grabbed him before he could conquer Hyrule.

In all of his fury and might he was blind to any danger, and thus he was exposed, subdued, and brought to justice.

Consider this; did TWW Link need to prove himself to be able to physically wield the Master Sword, or did he just need to prove that he was a true Hero so that he could go to Hyrule and get it? The latter is a fact, the former speculation without any real precedence. Now consider TP Link; he could not just walk into the Temple of Time and get the Master Sword - he needed to pass the test of the keepers. The same could be said for any Link. In ALttP (and OoT), he needed to retrieve the pedants, etc. OoT even says outright Link was not ready to become the Hero of Time, and we agree that does not mean he was not chosen.

I wasn’t claiming he needed to prove he could physically wield it, I was stating the second half of what you said - that he needed to prove his worth. TP/ALTTP/OOX/OOT Link don’t need to prove their worth at all, its pretty clear they were chosen from the beginning.

Also, Link (in any particular game) having to pass a test to get the Master Sword doesn’t mean is he trying to prove his worth to be chosen. What I am saying is that the Links are always initially chosen by the gods to be the hero.

Here you go again, equating Link proving himself to be worthy of the Master Sword(which he does in each game) with him proving himself worthy of the Triforce, or in other words, to be the Hero.(which he only does in TWW.)

I should notify you that it was I who originally pointed out the OoT-references in that scene to FDL. But besides that, I'm not convinced the scenes differ that much in terms of the ideas conveyed to the player. Ganondorf is apparently dead, then comes back, and turns into a demon (albeit only partially in TP). In that respect, they are no different.

This theory only works if Ganondorf had the power of the gods prior to the execution scene, in order for the Triforce to activate and save him. I am saying that the goddesses grant him that power after he is stabbed.

What are you saying, here? "Ganondorf is apparently dead, then comes back, and turns into a demon" only works if "Ganondorf had the power of the Gods prior to the execution scene"? The only way the references to OoT work is if "Ganondorf had the power of the Gods prior to the execution scene"? The former is false, it does work, and the latter, the references to OoT, are why we think he had the power before(well, one of the reasons, anyway. It's also one of the reasons why we think that the 'Power of the Gods' is the Triforce.)

Actually, that's not correct. The Sages speculate that Ganondorf's evil power has been passed on to Zant, but it is Zant himself who, at the end of the game, reveals that Ganondorf is still alive. You could argue, given your knowledge of the Zelda mythos, that it was obvious that Ganondorf did not die, but one could also make that same argument about OoT's ending - such arguments don't change the fact that Nintendo used these scenes as plot devices to surprise new gamers who did not know that Ganondorf would survive.

We knew he did not die since he was sent into the Mirror and we don’t need Zant to remind us.

Allow me to remind you of the argument: you tried to somehow disassociate the scene in TP from the one it's obviously homaging in OoT. First by saying that they're different situations, and second by saying that "Ganondorf obviously wasn't dead or anywhere close" which was rebutted by chalking up the same thing in TP.

Yes, you are probably right, but I find it unlikely that Ganondorf would have destroyed his own castle if he thought he had any other choice. In TP it was not an action of his part that brought ruin on him. Moreover, to argue that he had full control of the ToP, in spite of Zelda's words in OoT, or to deny that it does suspend his life (of which there are ample examples) is to ignore evidence in favor of your theory, which is generally considered to be an unhealthy practice.

Maybe this topic was so sidetracked we lost knowledge of what I am claiming. It is simply that the crests do not mean they have a Triforce, it means they have the power of the goddesses without owning a Triforce. Ganondorf receives his as a chosen one, while Link and Zelda receive theirs later on.

Yes, you're claiming that, but you also claimed that Ganondorf got the Power of the Gods after he was stabbed. People oppose that; expect to get side-tracked.

And I still have yet to see any reasonable, justifiable proof separating the Power of the Gods from the Triforce.

(Oh, and NM, you should really start editing your posts instead of double-posting.)

Edited by CID Farwin, 20 May 2008 - 11:01 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Oh, it is most definitely divine, and connected to the Triforce too! At least, that is if PH is to be believed. Remember the Force Gem puzzles in the Palace of The Ocean King? Granted, puzzles were never the most foolproof of evidence. Nonetheless, life force that is shared by gods is divine power.

Indeed, one could even argue TP has a shadow of it...

That's a huge leap in logic. The Light Force is a creation of the Minish, who are far from being Gods. Even if we go by what PH says, the Light Force is just a big ass Force Gem. Those aren't divine either.

The Force Gems are life force, which is inherent in every living thing. They're a sacred power, yes, but a sacred, universal power isn't the same as a Divine, Hallowed, Transcendant Divine Power like the Goddesses.

Yeah, of course it bears no similarities at all. It's not like it was said to grant wishes and make one akin to a God. Clearly the enormous amount of people debating whether the two could be the same or not were really all impersonated by a single troll. Myself included.
Look, I run out of sarcasm so I'll just ask the question: did you actually play Minish Cap (or read what the characters in it say)?

I did. The Triforce is not a single triangle that is passed down as a bloodline trait and can be stolen part by part in "fluid" portions, nor does the Triforce actually make someone into a deity, etc.

The differences outweigh the similarities. "It's a golden triangle that gives you what you want" is basically it.

I don't give a crap why (or rather I do, but only secondarily), I do not try to second guess the Gods; I merely observe the facts and form my opinion, and the facts are that the Power of the Gods present in TP does not behave like the Triforce normally does. Therefore, IF it is the Triforce at least something in the way people were given (and deprived of) its power must be different.

You say that, but I haven't seen a single instance of this questionable Power acting outside of normal Triforce behavior, and you've yet to provide one that stood up to any logic.

Except when he suddenly can moments later, right?

Right. Probably because he either realized he had the Triforce, or he figured out how to activate it. (I don't see where it's written that one must be able to use the Triforce the instant they acquire it.)

What is this difference? Since when where they two different things? Owning a piece or having it in your body, when was this distinction made?

Ever since the concept was introduced. When OOT made it possible for a Triforce piece reside in you, they also introduced the concept of being chosen. Keep up with the data if you're gonna be an arrogant asshole.

Trash-talking is a device that one hides behind to make his argument look better by downgrading another. Personally, I think its funny how you tell us all our arguments hold no water and that yours are absolute and supported by the text. Its sad really.

Pot. Kettle.

If Ganondorf had found the Triforce before TP, people would know, since him owning a Triforce, or the Triforce, means the end for Hyrule.

Apparently not, lol.

And I still have yet to see any reasonable, justifiable proof separating the Power of the Gods from the Triforce.

Quoted For Emphasis. The only reason I've seen is, effectively, "It's messy for the storyline." No shit, that's nothing new in Zelda Storylining.

[NM87]

In TWW. It's a fun game, you should play it sometime. If you have, I suggest playing it again. Link gets all the Triforce shards and assembles a piece, but it isn't until the whole cut-scene where Link presents his piece before the Gods and it enters his body that he is considered 'chosen' and named hero. This is when he's proven himself to be the hero, not when he goes through the Tower of the Gods.

I don’t think that is what happened at all. Link was proven chosen after he completed the Tower of the Gods. The part when he gets the Triforce is something after the fact so he can do battle with Ganon.

Then why does she say that he's dead, if he has no reason?

She says “with his last breath”, only when she knows he is beaten. Not that he is dead.

No, I said earlier in this post: Link only proves himself to be a hero worthy of the Triforce after he gets the Triforce, in that scene where he presents it to the Gods.

He proves himself chosen (for everything) after the Tower of the Gods.

He would conquer, unless they grabbed him before he could conquer Hyrule.

In all of his fury and might he was blind to any danger, and thus he was exposed, subdued, and brought to justice.

How does that prove he had a Triforce. TO takes place in the child timeline where Ganondorf OOT wasn’t able to enter the SR. He was trying to take over Hyrule ith his magic alone, which is why it wasn’t enough.

Here you go again, equating Link proving himself to be worthy of the Master Sword(which he does in each game) with him proving himself worthy of the Triforce, or in other words, to be the Hero.(which he only does in TWW.)

Being the chosen one, or proving yourself worthy of the chosen one, means you are qualified to be…the chosen one who wields the sword and carries a Triforce.

What are you saying, here? "Ganondorf is apparently dead, then comes back, and turns into a demon" only works if "Ganondorf had the power of the Gods prior to the execution scene"? The only way the references to OoT work is if "Ganondorf had the power of the Gods prior to the execution scene"? The former is false, it does work, and the latter, the references to OoT, are why we think he had the power before(well, one of the reasons, anyway. It's also one of the reasons why we think that the 'Power of the Gods' is the Triforce.)

First of all, all of you began comparing OO to TP, two different games where the developers probably had different intentions. Second, as we have been saying, if he had the power, he would have broken the chains instead of becoming wounded. The response you (and others) gave to this is that he didn’t know how to control that power to escape. I think that s a weak response, clinging to previous games event where the situation was totally different.

Allow me to remind you of the argument: you tried to somehow disassociate the scene in TP from the one it's obviously homaging in OoT. First by saying that they're different situations, and second by saying that "Ganondorf obviously wasn't dead or anywhere close" which was rebutted by chalking up the same thing in TP.

Here we go again, its obviously homage OOT because the rest of you say so and have managed to mold the evidence ever so slightly to make it seem so. Why is it homage to OOT anyway? Ganon is supposedly killed and comes back? Weak.

Yes, you're claiming that, but you also claimed that Ganondorf got the Power of the Gods after he was stabbed. People oppose that; expect to get side-tracked.

And I still have yet to see any reasonable, justifiable proof separating the Power of the Gods from the Triforce.

The idea that one doesn’t need a Triforce to own divine power.

[NM87]

Right. Probably because he either realized he had the Triforce, or he figured out how to activate it.

Sure.

Ever since the concept was introduced. When OOT made it possible for a Triforce piece reside in you, they also introduced the concept of being chosen. Keep up with the data if you're gonna be an arrogant asshole.

So we separate having a piece reside in you with possessing a piece. No, if you posses a piece, it will reside in you.

Apparently not, lol.

You are only able to say that if Ganon had the power prior to the scene and during the time the sages speak of, which is not proven or supported.

[FDL]

What is this difference? Since when where they two different things? Owning a piece or having it in your body, when was this distinction made?

In TWW, if not sooner. In the game Link is shown as first just having the ToC as an item and then having it "bestowed" upon him by the gods, which is when it starts to reside in him. You would have known this if you actually read anything I said.

“Okay, I'm trying to be patient with you guys but that's just stupid.” Just like I said, everyone else is wrong but you, and if they say different, then they’re hypocrites.

No, you're not a hypocrite because you disagree with me about a game, you're a hypocrite because you accuse me of being rude and of being unaccepting of other views and yet you are exhibiting this behavior far more than I am.

After he was weakened in the battle, he used his strength to bring the tower down, and then transformed into Ganon out of pure evil/hatred/power when his last ditch efforts had failed. By saying he was beaten, he could simply mean that Link…had beaten him.

“The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm. I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world. Thus, Ganondorf the Evil King will vanish from Hyrule.”

The goal of the final battle was to get Ganondorf back into the SR because they knew he could not be defeated. If this was not the case, Link could just kill him. Zelda and the sages knew they had to seal him away because he could not be killed with a Triforce, so Zelda has no reason to think he is dead.

That was the plan before Zelda was kidnapped. How are you not getting this? Zelda said he was using "his last breath". That means she believed he was in the throes of death.

Trash-talking is a device that one hides behind to make his argument look better by downgrading another. Personally, I think its funny how you tell us all our arguments hold no water and that yours are absolute and supported by the text. Its sad really.

Nope, I'm actually insulting you because you're being rude, hypocritical and closed-minded. My argument is backed by facts far more than yours so I don't really need to resort to trash-talking. I guess you do though, considering that last sentence.

Anytime someone has pieced together a Triforce, the Triforce itself was already in Hyrule with a reason it was broken. Ganondorf could not have found a Triforce in the way WW Link did because it wasn’t in Hyrule, and wasn’t discovered in the first place. Your statement only works if Ganondorf entered the SR before the events of TP. If Ganondorf had found the Triforce before TP, people would know, since him owning a Triforce, or the Triforce, means the end for Hyrule.

I'm starting to think part of why you're being rude is because you don't understand me. There is nothing in the games that disagrees with Ganondorf taking the ToP from the SR in the child timeline, and in fact there are several things that suggest such an occurence. That's one of my main points, that the "divine prank" theory isn't really as "obvious" as you seem to believe it is.

I'd like to add that Ganondorf was already chosen by the gods while Link had to prove himself. You claim Ganonodrf found the Triforce of Power, then was chosen by the Gods, and then compare that to WW Link. WW Link had proven himself to be a worthy hero, then he found the Triforce of Courage. Ganondorf was chosen from the beggining in TP.

What you're saying isn't backed up by anything. When is it ever said when either Link or Ganondorf was chosen? The facts are, Link is still bestowed the power of the gods even after he takes the Triforce. That's why Ganondorf can be considered chosen even if he went into the SR, because if the Triforce piece resides within your body, you are a chosen one.

What does Ganondorf not being able to control the power of the Gods have to do with TP? He gets stabbed…receives his power…breaks free. How much control of pure power do you need to break chains and survive a wound? He receives the power right after he is stabbed. “He had the power before” - doesn’t make sense because if he did then he would conquer Hyrule easily, and the sages would know he had it.

"He recieves the power right after he is stabbed", eh? Aren't you once again doing exactly what you accuse me of? No, he actually doesn't necessarily get it
at that point. In fact, several things suggest that you're wrong.

She says “with his last breath”, only when she knows he is beaten. Not that he is dead.

When have you ever seen the phrase "last breath" used describe something that has nothing to do with death? Even if you have, normally it is used the way we're saying it is.

He proves himself chosen (for everything) after the Tower of the Gods.

No, he isn't. Even if he was, that really means nothing to our argument. The point is that Ganondorf can still steal the Triforce out of the SR and be considered chosen as long as it inhabits his body.

How does that prove he had a Triforce. TO takes place in the child timeline where Ganondorf OOT wasn’t able to enter the SR. He was trying to take over Hyrule ith his magic alone, which is why it wasn’t enough.

That's never, ever been proven or even suggested. All that's known is that he was stopped before he took over Hyrule, which is still possible even if he stole the ToP.

Being the chosen one, or proving yourself worthy of the chosen one, means you are qualified to be…the chosen one who wields the sword and carries a Triforce.

Nope, that's never said.

First of all, all of you began comparing OO to TP, two different games where the developers probably had different intentions. Second, as we have been saying, if he had the power, he would have broken the chains instead of becoming wounded. The response you (and others) gave to this is that he didn’t know how to control that power to escape. I think that s a weak response, clinging to previous games event where the situation was totally different.

Timeline/storyline theorizing should take all games into account. Furthermore, just because you say they're different doesn't mean they are. In fact, they're more similar than different.

Here we go again, its obviously homage OOT because the rest of you say so and have managed to mold the evidence ever so slightly to make it seem so. Why is it homage to OOT anyway? Ganon is supposedly killed and comes back? Weak.

It IS an homage to OoT. The comparisons that we're making give credence to the idea that Ganondorf can be protected by the ToP and that it can grant him new power in times of need(much like how the ToC protected Link from the Twilight later on).

The idea that one doesn’t need a Triforce to own divine power.

That means nothing. An idea is just that, an idea, and the fact that everything else seems to imply that TP has the actual Triforce in it makes that idea less likely.

So we separate having a piece reside in you with possessing a piece. No, if you posses a piece, it will reside in you.

Nope, we've seen lots of times where a character has a piece of the Triforce and it is not bound to them. Ever heard of TWW and LoZ/AoL?

You are only able to say that if Ganon had the power prior to the scene and during the time the sages speak of, which is not proven or supported.

It actually is supported, moreso than what you're saying in fact. I've actually shown you evidence in my favor, you just have an "idea" and a couple of quotes that say nothing about the "power of goddesses" and how it was given to Ganondorf after he was stabbed.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 21 May 2008 - 10:58 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

I wasn’t claiming he needed to prove he could physically wield it, I was stating the second half of what you said - that he needed to prove his worth. TP/ALTTP/OOX/OOT Link don’t need to prove their worth at all, its pretty clear they were chosen from the beginning.

You keep saying that, but you have yet to show any evidence to support your claims. What is it, exactly, that makes TWW Link so different? None of the other Link are called chosen until they either do something (ALttP, OoT) or show evidence of it (OoT, OoX, TP). TWW Link is first named a Hero after saving Valoo, and is said to be chosen even before he completes the TotG by Gohdan ("Oh chosen one, accept this final challange..." "...what will happen now is tied to fate"). As for the specifics of Link needing to 'prove his worth', I have shown you several examples of how TWW is no different from other games, but you have ignored them all. If these did not hit the mark, you must tell me yourself. And if you can't do that, at least tell me, is the puzzle Link needs to complete before entering the chamber of the Master Sword in TP not a test? And if it is not, what is it that makes it so fundamentally different from the Tower of the Gods? Remember, both were seemingly divine in origin.

Also, Link (in any particular game) having to pass a test to get the Master Sword doesn’t mean is he trying to prove his worth to be chosen. What I am saying is that the Links are always initially chosen by the gods to be the hero.

Indeed, I believe we all agree about that.

This theory only works if Ganondorf had the power of the gods prior to the execution scene, in order for the Triforce to activate and save him. I am saying that the goddesses grant him that power after he is stabbed.

I am aware of that, but that does not make the idea that he had it beforehand any less likely, does it?

We knew he did not die since he was sent into the Mirror and we don’t need Zant to remind us.

Wait - Just before you said we knew he was alive because the Sages told us, but now it’s because we never saw him die? I am sorry, but that's not hard evidence. There is no reason for us to believe Ganondorf survived in the Twilight Realm - the Sages certainly don't. Again, this is the difference between what you, a series veteran and a newb, to whom that part of the scene was aimed would interpret the situation; though I do not deny that they left hints that Ganondorf would return (Zant's mention of his 'god', and Ganondorf’s possession of the power of the gods which saved Link being the main ones).

Ganondorf receives his as a chosen one, while Link and Zelda receive theirs later on.

This we agree on. It is the method of acquisition that is in dispute here.

Allow me to remind you of the argument: you tried to somehow disassociate the scene in TP from the one it's obviously homaging in OoT. First by saying that they're different situations, and second by saying that "Ganondorf obviously wasn't dead or anywhere close" which was rebutted by chalking up the same thing in TP.

Exactly. He contradicted himself, so his argument can't be valid.

It is now up to you NM to refute the references brought up by FDL, one by one. You can't just say "you're wrong, I don't believe you" because simply restating your opinion over and over will never win you an argument.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 21 May 2008 - 01:06 PM.

[FDL]

This we agree on.

I was under the impression you had a similar opinion to mine is this case?

[Hero of Legend]

*edits*

Better now?

As for what I think... I don't think we can say for a fact which theory is true at this point, though I believe I have made it clear I don't agree with NM's reasoning. Duke probably made the best case for the non-Triforce theory, but I'll wait until a new game is released/new information is uncovered before I make up my mind on this matter.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 21 May 2008 - 01:16 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

So we separate having a piece reside in you with possessing a piece. No, if you posses a piece, it will reside in you.

LOZ, AOL, and TWW disagree with you.

[Ize]

And I don't think his deleted final speech should be canon.

Why not?

Because it means Ganondorf knew there were others with crests and did nothing to stop them, contradicting his behavior in OoT. Besides, the developers took it out even when it was so minor and would not have been 'bad' for the ending, they must have known it didn't make sens to have Ganondorf sitting in his castle without looking for the other crests

And about the execution, Ganondorf couldn't have recieved the ToP before. The sages were surprised to see him using the triforce to break free. They must have had to fight him in order to subdue him, and they would have recognized the ToP had he used it then. The whole deal of 'he must have not known how to use it' is too speculative.

[Raien]

Because it means Ganondorf knew there were others with crests and did nothing to stop them, contradicting his behavior in OoT. Besides, the developers took it out even when it was so minor and would not have been 'bad' for the ending, they must have known it didn't make sens to have Ganondorf sitting in his castle without looking for the other crests.

Ganondorf had never met Link or Midna before the final battle, so how would he know that they possessed the power of the gods? Yet I think it's clear that he did try to search for the other chosen, because the Bulblins that raided Ordon village were shown looking at the hands of the children (yet they missed Link).

[FDL]

*edits*

Better now?

As for what I think... I don't think we can say for a fact which theory is true at this point, though I believe I have made it clear I don't agree with NM's reasoning. Duke probably made the best case for the non-Triforce theory, but I'll wait until a new game is released/new information is uncovered before I make up my mind on this matter.

Yeah, I'll agree with that. DS's theory is definetly well thought-out. But after debating so many people I feel pretty sure of my self on this.

Because it means Ganondorf knew there were others with crests and did nothing to stop them, contradicting his behavior in OoT. Besides, the developers took it out even when it was so minor and would not have been 'bad' for the ending, they must have known it didn't make sens to have Ganondorf sitting in his castle without looking for the other crests

Have you actually read this thread? There is basically no difference in Ganondorf's behavior between OoT, TP, and TWW. I honestly don't see why so many people came to this conclusion.

And about the execution, Ganondorf couldn't have recieved the ToP before. The sages were surprised to see him using the triforce to break free. They must have had to fight him in order to subdue him, and they would have recognized the ToP had he used it then. The whole deal of 'he must have not known how to use it' is too speculative.

It's less speculative than this "power of the goddesses" stuff. I actually even posted a quote and showed several examples of it being the case, so I don't see why you'd call it speculative. See, I understand if you disagree but if you try to claim I'm wrong you should at least actually refute what I say. However, in this case I believe I am correct. I have seen absolutely nothing in these games that actually says that a person with a Triforce piece in their body automatically gains all of it's power.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 21 May 2008 - 04:31 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

The Light Force is a creation of the Minish

Wrong again. They only brought it to Hyrule.

The Triforce is not a single triangle

One of the three Triforce parts is.

that is passed down as a bloodline trait and can be stolen part by part in "fluid" portions

It didn't happen in previous games. Neither did something that proved it to behave differently in these regards.

nor does the Triforce actually make someone into a deity, etc.

Literalist.

The differences outweigh the similarities. "It's a golden triangle that gives you what you want" is basically it.

That's absolutely true. But you cannot deny there are similarities (as you previously did).

You say that, but I haven't seen a single instance of this questionable Power acting outside of normal Triforce behavior, and you've yet to provide one that stood up to any logic.

Neither I have seen any reasonable explanation for why his power fades away when he dies.
That is, other than the one I myself proposed of his power (Triforce of otherwise) being put back to whence it came by the Gods just as they deliberately gave it to him.

Except when he suddenly can moments later, right?

Right. Probably because he either realized he had the Triforce, or he figured out how to activate it. (I don't see where it's written that one must be able to use the Triforce the instant they acquire it.)

Because he was after its power in the first place? Because in OoT no one was able to stop him from conquering Hyrule once he got it?

I don't think we can say for a fact which theory is true at this point, though I believe I have made it clear I don't agree with NM's reasoning. Duke probably made the best case for the non-Triforce theory, but I'll wait until a new game is released/new information is uncovered before I make up my mind on this matter.

Yeah, I'll agree with that. DS's theory is definetly well thought-out. But after debating so many people I feel pretty sure of my self on this.

*Bows* Thankees.

Just remember guys, I do not advocate only one theory, I have several. I consider it possible that this was a divine power completely separate from the Triforce, yes, but I also consider it possible (and even more likely) that they had a connection to the Triforce while it remained in the Sacred Realm. Or even that the Gods gave it to them and then took it back.
Any of these of course are built on the assumption that Ganondorf obtained his power during the execution scene through an act of the gods. Of that much I do not doubt.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 21 May 2008 - 05:37 PM.

[NM87]

In TWW, if not sooner. In the game Link is shown as first just having the ToC as an item and then having it "bestowed" upon him by the gods, which is when it starts to reside in him. You would have known this if you actually read anything I said.

This doesn’t make much sense to me. Why would someone need to find the Triforce pieces and then have to wait for the gods to bestow it upon them. That’s like saying Ganondorf stole the Triforce and then waited for an “ok” by the gods so he can use it.

I'm starting to think part of why you're being rude is because you don't understand me. There is nothing in the games that disagrees with Ganondorf taking the ToP from the SR in the child timeline, and in fact there are several things that suggest such an occurence. That's one of my main points, that the "divine prank" theory isn't really as "obvious" as you seem to believe it is.

That's never, ever been proven or even suggested. All that's known is that he was stopped before he took over Hyrule, which is still possible even if he stole the ToP.

I’m not so sure that Hyrule would be able to stop Ganondorf from taking over if he had a Triforce. If TP pays homage to OOT, then why be different in this situation? Ganondorf easily takes over Hyrule with the ToP in OOT, so why would he fail in TP? Because he was subdued in TP? Why couldn’t he be subdued in OOT? The difference is he had no Triforce in TP.

What you're saying isn't backed up by anything. When is it ever said when either Link or Ganondorf was chosen? The facts are, Link is still bestowed the power of the gods even after he takes the Triforce. That's why Ganondorf can be considered chosen even if he went into the SR, because if the Triforce piece resides within your body, you are a chosen one.

No, he isn't. Even if he was, that really means nothing to our argument. The point is that Ganondorf can still steal the Triforce out of the SR and be considered chosen as long as it inhabits his body.

So long as you have a Triforce piece you are chosen…so I guess Ganondorf in OOT was chosen? Zelda in WW is not in possession of her piece for most of the game as Tetra…but its pretty clear she is chosen even without having the piece. Basically, I don’t think there is a difference of having a piece and having it “in your body”. You could be chosen and not have a piece, you could be chosen and have a piece, or you could be chosen and just be granted the gods power. I’ve never seen any game state this distinction, it was derived from a theory on the Triforce pieces. I am claiming that there are two crests: One to signal you have a Triforce in the context that you own one, and another which signifies you are chosen to wield the power of the gods. In TP, the crests signify the power of the respective goddess that was bestowed upon the chosen ones. This much is shown in the text, as what is simply stated. The other argument is only supposedly supported in theory on what the events in TP could possibly mean, or in relation to previous games (even though Nintendo places individual stories of each game above its overall placement in the timeline).

Alright, I'm done arguing with four people, I'll say what I believe and retire from this mess. The burden of proof is with me, and without future games there is no objective truth in all of this.

In the child timeline, Ganondorf isn’t able to enter the SR, so he begins an attack on Hyrule with his own magic. He fails and is subdued before conquering Hyrule. If he had entered the SR he would have obtained the power of the gods through that means and conquered Hyrule with the power of the gods.

“He was the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm.”

Hopes to, but never does.

The sages are surprised when Ganondorf uses the power of the gods to escape, as if they didn’t know he had it. If he had obtained the Triforce prior to TP I am certain the sages would know. So after they attempt to kill him, his power awakens and he is able to escape.

Since Zelda, Link and Ganondorf are always referenced as being “chosen” by the gods to receive their power, while the SR was never disturbed, its safe to conclude they merely receive the power of the gods rather than a Triforce. Its no so farfetched to consider when TP makes no mention of the Triforce. I understand most of you shrug this off, but that’s too bad, it’s a valid point no matter how small you make it seem. Zelda, Link and Ganondorf are always mentioned as having the power of the gods instead of having a piece of the Triforce.

“In the land covered in twilight, where people roam as spirits, you were transformed into a blue-eyed beast... That was a sign... It was a sign that the powers of the chosen one rest within you...and that they are awakening. Look at your awakened form... The green tunic that is your garb once belonged to the ancient hero chosen by the gods... His power is yours. His is the true power that slept within you.”

Faron makes it seem as if that power resided in Link before it was awakened. He was chosen, so he always had that power. The same could be said for Zelda and Ganondorf. Maybe you are a bit confused as to what I believe actually happens at the execution seen. Ganondorf is threatened, and his power awakens, as he is a chosen one. Links power begins to awaken when he is pulled into the twilight and his beast form emerges (a sign he is the hero).

[Raien]

I don't whether I pointed this out in this topic, but I've recently realised that the notion of "destiny" or being "chosen by the goddesses" only really relates to divine intervention. One could argue that if fate exists, it applies to everything in the Zelda universe, but the games only refer to destiny when something specific happens to accommodate a prophecy, like the Master Sword sealing Link away for seven years.

[Jumbie]

Respect to y'all for piling up so many pages in such a short time.

It's weird how one year ago, the question was not whether the Triforce was in TP or not; the question was merely whether Ganondorf got the ToP at the execution place or before that..!

A question that I've wanted to ask is, what would Ganondorf's removed dying speech mean in regard to LoZ and TWW, where he has the ToP but Link doesn't have the ToC?

What is the "power" that Midna wants to restore to Zelda? The ToW, which Zelda's soul has been imbued with.

No, it's simply Zelda's life energy. To be fair, that's what the sentence means.

Ganondorf did not die after the first half of the battle in OOT, nor was he near death.

Ganondorf's constitution after OoT's first fight is the exact same as his consitution after the sages' sword has pierced him in TP: near death, then revived by the ToP.


Btw, one thing that all of you seem to forget is that the mystery might not actually be "Is the Triforce in TP?", but rather, "What's the exact relation between the Triforce and the crests it's been said to award ever since ALttP?"

Edited by Jumbie, 21 May 2008 - 11:21 PM.

[LionHarted]

A question that I've wanted to ask is, what would Ganondorf's removed dying speech mean in regard to LoZ and TWW, where he has the ToP but Link doesn't have the ToC?

Or even to ALttP, where he has all of it and Link has none.

[NM87]

Ganondorf's constitution after OoT's first fight is the exact same as his consitution after the sages' sword has pierced him in TP: near death, then revived by the ToP.

That is if he had the ToP in TP, which we are debating. Although, would it matter if he was revived (during the executon scene) by the ToP or just by the "power of the gods" that awakens in him?

A question that I've wanted to ask is, what would Ganondorf's removed dying speech mean in regard to LoZ and TWW, where he has the ToP but Link doesn't have the ToC?

Possibly nothing! All he really says is that there will be good and evil to oppose each other. Even so, he states the chosen ones must bear crests. Supposing ALTTP and LOZ occur after TP, it could be because the Triforce has been accosted, which would mean someone owns all the Triforce, thus eliminating anyone else from receiving the power of the gods. Yet a chosen one will always appear to fight evil, even though they do not have a Triforce, they could still be granted the power of the gods for being chosen. As for WW, it could be irrelevant since it occurs in another timeline, BUT, this all depends on what timeline you place everything in. If you place TP in its own separate timeline, then none of this matters.

Edited by NM87, 21 May 2008 - 11:57 PM.

[LionHarted]

That is if he had the ToP in TP, which we are debating. Although, would it matter if he was revived (during the executon scene) by the ToP or just by the "power of the gods" that awakens in him?

A "power of the gods" that manifests in precisely the same way with precisely the same effect as the Triforce of Power.