323 replies to this topic

[NM87]

A "power of the gods" that manifests in precisely the same way with precisely the same effect as the Triforce of Power.

...that’s the debate. It seems like he had gotten the ToP, but it isn't impossible to say he merely got the power of his representative goddess.

[LionHarted]

...that’s the debate. It seems like he had gotten the ToP, but it isn't impossible to say he merely got the power of his representative goddess.

The ToP is the power of Din.

Isn't that what they are? The "essence of the gods"?

[NM87]

The ToP is the power of Din.

Isn't that what they are? The "essence of the gods"?

Yes Lex, but I am saying the goddesses are able to give their power without handing out Triforces. Link in ALTTP/LOZ seems to be a chosen one who seemingly has the "power of the gods", although he has no Triforce. I'm not sure if it was ever stated that those Link's had the power of the gods, but I am sure they did in some way if they were chosen. Yet they did not have a Triforce.

[Ize]

Have you actually read this thread? There is basically no difference in Ganondorf's behavior between OoT, TP, and TWW. I honestly don't see why so many people came to this conclusion.

He is slightly different, and it's visible, he behaves and talks differently. Ganondorf doesn't change much from OoT to TP, but there are notable differences with his WW self. In both WW and TP the three have the triforce (or the power of the gods or the lifeforce or whatever) and he only wants the other parts in WW, because he can't raise Hyrule, so he needs the power/wish that he can only get using the complete triforce. In fact, what I was saying is that his speech was removed to make him more similar to his OoT version, supporting your claims. There's no point in arguing over this since it will only get us sidetracked, maybe in some other thread about Ganondorf.
And yeah, I read the thread,there's no need to be a dick.

I actually even posted a quote and showed several examples of it being the case, so I don't see why you'd call it speculative. See, I understand if you disagree but if you try to claim I'm wrong you should at least actually refute what I say. However, in this case I believe I am correct. I have seen absolutely nothing in these games that actually says that a person with a Triforce piece in their body automatically gains all of it's power.

Do you mean the post in which you said that Ganondorf only managed to fully use his triforce the moment he became a gigantic pig? He surely was using it, maybe even to it's full (pig form) when he conquered Hyrule. That was the whole point of his quest to find the triforce in the first place, to conquer Hyrule, since he culdn't do it alone (hence he gets caught in the child timeline).
If he had the trifoce of power, he should have concquered Hyrule just like he did in the adult timeline.
Maybe in the first part of the final battle in OoT he was just using his magic (fighting as Ganondorf), perhaps even enhanced by the ToP. He was beaten by Link and was force to use the ToP to the max. In any case, the moment when he breaks the chains and his eyes go white and the music are clearly references for the fans of OoT (which was a big deal in TP).

[FDL]

This doesn’t make much sense to me. Why would someone need to find the Triforce pieces and then have to wait for the gods to bestow it upon them. That’s like saying Ganondorf stole the Triforce and then waited for an “ok” by the gods so he can use it.

Well, I don't think that's exactly the case here. In Ganondorf's case he probably immediately had it bestowed upon him after he took it, while in TWW Link only had it bestowed on him after he deliberately showed them the Triforce.

I’m not so sure that Hyrule would be able to stop Ganondorf from taking over if he had a Triforce. If TP pays homage to OOT, then why be different in this situation? Ganondorf easily takes over Hyrule with the ToP in OOT, so why would he fail in TP? Because he was subdued in TP? Why couldn’t he be subdued in OOT? The difference is he had no Triforce in TP.

No, that isn't the difference. The difference is Link was there. As we've seen with MM, Link has the ability to change the fate of a land. There are many, many ways Link could've changed the future. Now, of course all of these methods would just be conjecture but no more so than what you're claiming.

So long as you have a Triforce piece you are chosen…so I guess Ganondorf in OOT was chosen? Zelda in WW is not in possession of her piece for most of the game as Tetra…but its pretty clear she is chosen even without having the piece. Basically, I don’t think there is a difference of having a piece and having it “in your body”. You could be chosen and not have a piece, you could be chosen and have a piece, or you could be chosen and just be granted the gods power. I’ve never seen any game state this distinction, it was derived from a theory on the Triforce pieces. I am claiming that there are two crests: One to signal you have a Triforce in the context that you own one, and another which signifies you are chosen to wield the power of the gods. In TP, the crests signify the power of the respective goddess that was bestowed upon the chosen ones. This much is shown in the text, as what is simply stated. The other argument is only supposedly supported in theory on what the events in TP could possibly mean, or in relation to previous games (even though Nintendo places individual stories of each game above its overall placement in the timeline).

That is utterly incorrect. It is never, ever stated that the crests in TP are different. Any differences that are there are extremely negligible. The fact that we've seen so many people just in this thread who claim there is no difference suggests to me that I am not overlooking anything. The fact is, power of the gods has almost always referred to Triforce and so far there has been no reason to believe it doesn't this time, either. Also, just having a Triforce piece does not make you chosen. However, having it within your body does. So yes, Ganondorf and Zelda are both chosen. Now, I'm not saying you have to have a piece within your body to be chosen, but if you do you are.

In the child timeline, Ganondorf isn’t able to enter the SR, so he begins an attack on Hyrule with his own magic. He fails and is subdued before conquering Hyrule. If he had entered the SR he would have obtained the power of the gods through that means and conquered Hyrule with the power of the gods.

“He was the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm.”

Hopes to, but never does.

No, that's not what the quote says actually. Just because it explains what his motivation was doesn't mean he didn't suceed. This point is actually one of the more ridiculous ones, particularly when there are much less vague quotes that I have posted that you contimue to claim are wrong.

The sages are surprised when Ganondorf uses the power of the gods to escape, as if they didn’t know he had it. If he had obtained the Triforce prior to TP I am certain the sages would know. So after they attempt to kill him, his power awakens and he is able to escape.

Zelda knew that Ganondorf had the ToP and was still surprised when he lived through the Tower's collapse and turned into Ganondorf. Zelda in that timeline had the ToW and was the leader of the Sages. So no, there surprise could mean many things.

Since Zelda, Link and Ganondorf are always referenced as being “chosen” by the gods to receive their power, while the SR was never disturbed, its safe to conclude they merely receive the power of the gods rather than a Triforce. Its no so farfetched to consider when TP makes no mention of the Triforce. I understand most of you shrug this off, but that’s too bad, it’s a valid point no matter how small you make it seem. Zelda, Link and Ganondorf are always mentioned as having the power of the gods instead of having a piece of the Triforce.

I have given you several quotes which refer to Triforce pieces as the power of the gods. I don't see why you dont understand this, "power of the gods" is in no way a term exclusive to TP. So, no, it's not as valid a point as you guys say it is. I mean, there are [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of examples in everything of someone using different wording to describe the same thing and that doesn't make it different. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....

“In the land covered in twilight, where people roam as spirits, you were transformed into a blue-eyed beast... That was a sign... It was a sign that the powers of the chosen one rest within you...and that they are awakening. Look at your awakened form... The green tunic that is your garb once belonged to the ancient hero chosen by the gods... His power is yours. His is the true power that slept within you.”

Faron makes it seem as if that power resided in Link before it was awakened. He was chosen, so he always had that power. The same could be said for Zelda and Ganondorf. Maybe you are a bit confused as to what I believe actually happens at the execution seen. Ganondorf is threatened, and his power awakens, as he is a chosen one. Links power begins to awaken when he is pulled into the twilight and his beast form emerges (a sign he is the hero).

That quote actually helps my case. Faron refers to the fact that TP Link has the exact same power as OoT Link. Guess what power Link had in OoT? The Triforce of Courage. So I'd say the Hero bloodline(which is referenced [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] in TP) and the Royal Family probably just pass the Triforce pieces down from generation to generation.

I don't whether I pointed this out in this topic, but I've recently realised that the notion of "destiny" or being "chosen by the goddesses" only really relates to divine intervention. One could argue that if fate exists, it applies to everything in the Zelda universe, but the games only refer to destiny when something specific happens to accommodate a prophecy, like the Master Sword sealing Link away for seven years.

Not really. I think that's just you wanting this theory to be true. Forgive me if Im wrong.

No, it's simply Zelda's life energy. To be fair, that's what the sentence means.

Okay, I was hoping you'd clear that up. But it really doesn't change anything else in my argument.

That is if he had the ToP in TP, which we are debating. Although, would it matter if he was revived (during the executon scene) by the ToP or just by the "power of the gods" that awakens in him?

Any time the Triforce saves it's bearer from danger can be considered the "power of the gods awakening within them". And yes, it does matter.

A "power of the gods" that manifests in precisely the same way with precisely the same effect as the Triforce of Power.

Quoted for truth. There's so far been no substantial differences I've seen between these things.

Yes Lex, but I am saying the goddesses are able to give their power without handing out Triforces. Link in ALTTP/LOZ seems to be a chosen one who seemingly has the "power of the gods", although he has no Triforce. I'm not sure if it was ever stated that those Link's had the power of the gods, but I am sure they did in some way if they were chosen. Yet they did not have a Triforce.

What? He doesn't "seemingly have the power of the gods" at all. You can be chosen as a hero without being given the power of the gods.

He is slightly different, and it's visible, he behaves and talks differently. Ganondorf doesn't change much from OoT to TP, but there are notable differences with his WW self. In both WW and TP the three have the triforce (or the power of the gods or the lifeforce or whatever) and he only wants the other parts in WW, because he can't raise Hyrule, so he needs the power/wish that he can only get using the complete triforce. In fact, what I was saying is that his speech was removed to make him more similar to his OoT version, supporting your claims. There's no point in arguing over this since it will only get us sidetracked, maybe in some other thread about Ganondorf.
And yeah, I read the thread,there's no need to be a dick.

That's fine, I was merely asking because there are some people who dont read the whole thread. That's why I asked. So I apologize.

Do you mean the post in which you said that Ganondorf only managed to fully use his triforce the moment he became a gigantic pig? He surely was using it, maybe even to it's full (pig form) when he conquered Hyrule. That was the whole point of his quest to find the triforce in the first place, to conquer Hyrule, since he culdn't do it alone (hence he gets caught in the child timeline).
If he had the trifoce of power, he should have concquered Hyrule just like he did in the adult timeline.
Maybe in the first part of the final battle in OoT he was just using his magic (fighting as Ganondorf), perhaps even enhanced by the ToP. He was beaten by Link and was force to use the ToP to the max. In any case, the moment when he breaks the chains and his eyes go white and the music are clearly references for the fans of OoT (which was a big deal in TP).

Using something in a small capacity isn't the same as being able to fully control it. I'd liken it to someone who has a weapon. Like, Ganondorf in the AG scene would be a novice fencer/marksman/whatever, the Ganondorf in the future OoT would be someone who has some expertise but isn't a master, and the Ganondorf's who are saved by the ToP are(at least temporarily) masters. Even someone who has barely used a weapon could hurt someone with it but they wouldn't be unbeatable, while the more knowledge and experience the gain with it the more likely they are to be able to accomplish something with it.

[MikePetersSucks]

Because it means Ganondorf knew there were others with crests and did nothing to stop them, contradicting his behavior in OoT. Besides, the developers took it out even when it was so minor and would not have been 'bad' for the ending, they must have known it didn't make sens to have Ganondorf sitting in his castle without looking for the other crests

I don't see how he's being idle. He sent monsters after Link and Midna and he has Zelda captive. He's obviously just content using Zant as his proxy.

And about the execution, Ganondorf couldn't have recieved the ToP before. The sages were surprised to see him using the triforce to break free. They must have had to fight him in order to subdue him, and they would have recognized the ToP had he used it then. The whole deal of 'he must have not known how to use it' is too speculative.

It's not speculative. Where is it written that gaining a Triforce piece also gives you knowledge on how to use it, or that you must have full control of it? Hell, it is Ganondorf. Maybe he kept it for an Ace in the Hole, or wanted to mindfuck the Sages. It wouldn't be the first time he's taken a loss in order to get a comeuppance.

Wrong again. They only brought it to Hyrule.

Proof? The Minish are stated to have created many magical gifts and given them to the Hyrulians, "Ever since the first time they visited and gave us the Picori Sword." Said sword was given with a golden light. We're supposed to believe that they made EVERY OTHER GIFT except the Light Force?

One of the three Triforce parts is.

A single Triforce part doesn't grant nigh-omnipotence though.

It didn't happen in previous games. Neither did something that proved it to behave differently in these regards.

Well, we know the Triforce can't technically be stolen if it's residing in someone, and we also know it can't be passed down genetically, so yea.

Literalist.

You're one to talk, Mr. "POWER OF THE GODDESSES LOLOL."

That's absolutely true. But you cannot deny there are similarities (as you previously did).

Yea, but they're so minor that who gives a shit? The Light Force has more in common with Force Gems than the Triforce.

Neither I have seen any reasonable explanation for why his power fades away when he dies.
That is, other than the one I myself proposed of his power (Triforce of otherwise) being put back to whence it came by the Gods just as they deliberately gave it to him.

We've never actually seen what happens when someone dies when a Triforce piece is within them. Perhaps it goes back to the Sacred Realm, or it reincarnates with them, or it goes to another chosen, or who knows what else?

This doesn’t make much sense to me. Why would someone need to find the Triforce pieces and then have to wait for the gods to bestow it upon them. That’s like saying Ganondorf stole the Triforce and then waited for an “ok” by the gods so he can use it.

Well, the Triforce fused with Link when he tried to use it. Perhaps if you're not chosen, the Triforce remains inert or something.

I’m not so sure that Hyrule would be able to stop Ganondorf from taking over if he had a Triforce. If TP pays homage to OOT, then why be different in this situation? Ganondorf easily takes over Hyrule with the ToP in OOT, so why would he fail in TP? Because he was subdued in TP? Why couldn’t he be subdued in OOT? The difference is he had no Triforce in TP.

Perhaps because of Zelda being warned by OOT Link when he returned to his childhood.

So long as you have a Triforce piece you are chosen…so I guess Ganondorf in OOT was chosen? Zelda in WW is not in possession of her piece for most of the game as Tetra…but its pretty clear she is chosen even without having the piece. Basically, I don’t think there is a difference of having a piece and having it “in your body”.

Then why in the hell do the Triforce Pieces go inside a person? Besides, LOZ Ganon had his Triforce piece outside of his body and he stole it. And according to AOL, LOZ/AOL Link is the one "Chosen" to have the Triforce.

No, it's simply Zelda's life energy. To be fair, that's what the sentence means.

"She gave me everything she had." And since Zelda states that she was "one" with Midna and aware of what Midna knew, Zelda's consciousness had to be in that package as well, so why not her Triforce piece too?

A "power of the gods" that manifests in precisely the same way with precisely the same effect as the Triforce of Power.

If Lex and I are agreeing, you know the opposing side is in trouble.

Link in ALTTP/LOZ seems to be a chosen one who seemingly has the "power of the gods", although he has no Triforce.

WTF? Where's this coming from? Neither LTTP or LOZ Link display any power of the gods.

If he had the trifoce of power, he should have concquered Hyrule just like he did in the adult timeline.

Perhaps the Child Timeline went differently.

[Jumbie]

No, it's simply Zelda's life energy. To be fair, that's what the sentence means.

"She gave me everything she had." And since Zelda states that she was "one" with Midna and aware of what Midna knew, Zelda's consciousness had to be in that package as well, so why not her Triforce piece too?

Yes, I do think the ToW went to Midna along with Zelda's soul. I just wanted to clarify that Midna's giving back power to Zelda refers to restoring her, not returning the ToW to her, since that quote has been misconstrued as evidence (by both sides, which is especially unsettling).

[NM87]

Well, I don't think that's exactly the case here. In Ganondorf's case he probably immediately had it bestowed upon him after he took it, while in TWW Link only had it bestowed on him after he deliberately showed them the Triforce.

Again, what the hell? Doesn’t make sense. Why should the rules be different for the two of them. You are relating two totally separate games with two totally separate situations about the Triforce.

No, that isn't the difference. The difference is Link was there. As we've seen with MM, Link has the ability to change the fate of a land. There are many, many ways Link could've changed the future. Now, of course all of these methods would just be conjecture but no more so than what you're claiming.

Link, as in a hero, was there. The skeleton Link meets in TP claims he took up life as the hero, as there are many mentions of a hero being alive in Hyrule, as the Zora Armor was made for him. It could be OOT Link, since he was in the Lost Woods after MM. (If you do not think it was the Lost Woods, fine, I think it was and I am not here to debate that with you.)

That is utterly incorrect. It is never, ever stated that the crests in TP are different. Any differences that are there are extremely negligible. The fact that we've seen so many people just in this thread who claim there is no difference suggests to me that I am not overlooking anything. The fact is, power of the gods has almost always referred to Triforce and so far there has been no reason to believe it doesn't this time, either. Also, just having a Triforce piece does not make you chosen. However, having it within your body does. So yes, Ganondorf and Zelda are both chosen. Now, I'm not saying you have to have a piece within your body to be chosen, but if you do you are.

That is because everyone is looking at precedent from previous Zelda games, which occur in a timeline separate from TP. OOT Future and WW are in another reality so whatever rules of the crests exist only for those games. When Link comes back to Hyrule at the end of OOT, he has the crest, but does he have a Triforce? Probably not, which would mean he symbolically has the power of the gods without actually having a Triforce. Like Duke said, its possible the crests have relation to the pieces themselves as they rest in the SR, but they do not have them physically.

Since OOT Link had the power of the gods without having a Triforce, its possible for it to be passed down to TP Link in the same way.

No, that's not what the quote says actually. Just because it explains what his motivation was doesn't mean he didn't suceed. This point is actually one of the more ridiculous ones, particularly when there are much less vague quotes that I have posted that you contimue to claim are wrong.

If in the first sentence they claim he hoped to conquer the SR, then in the second they say he was subdued, in this context it isn’t ridiculous to conclude he never did.

Any time the Triforce saves it's bearer from danger can be considered the "power of the gods awakening within them". And yes, it does matter.

According to this, the ToP Ganondorf obtained in OOT wasn’t fully awakened, and only “awakened” more at the end? Sill doesn’t make sense.

Edited by NM87, 22 May 2008 - 12:58 PM.

[LionHarted]

To NM87: Technically, Link doesn't have the crest when he returns to the past. He only has it in the very last scene.

He is slightly different, and it's visible, he behaves and talks differently.

This can more than likely be chalked up to different writers writing each of these games, and taking different spins on each character.

Edited by LionHarted, 22 May 2008 - 01:30 PM.

[NM87]

Technically, Link doesn't have the crest when he returns to the past. He only has it in the very last scene.

It is still there.

Edited by NM87, 22 May 2008 - 01:36 PM.

[CID Farwin]

I’m not so sure that Hyrule would be able to stop Ganondorf from taking over if he had a Triforce. If TP pays homage to OOT, then why be different in this situation? Ganondorf easily takes over Hyrule with the ToP in OOT, so why would he fail in TP? Because he was subdued in TP? Why couldn’t he be subdued in OOT? The difference is he had no Triforce in TP.

"Ganon would have taken over like he did in the Adult timeline." Um, no. Why did Ganondorf take over? Because Link disappeared for seven years. There seems to be two major differences between the Child and Adult timelines here that everyone (except for FDL, that is) has missed. In the Child timeline Link is there, and as we see from TP, sages were there, too. What is it that ultimately defeats Ganondorf in the Adult OoT? Link and the Sages. Both of which are shown to be present in the Child timeline. It's not as much of a stretch as some would like to think.

Since OOT Link had the power of the gods without having a Triforce, its possible for it to be passed down to TP Link in the same way.

Guhwa? Where'd this come from?

And also, since there's people who know Japanese better than me here, 'Power of the Gods' is 神の力, nay? (That's kami no ka? that looks like a ka, and I don't know any kanji, but I do know that that is the word for power.) So, unless I'm wrong here, it would also be a correct translation to say "Divine Power" just like divine prank. The question I have here is if it would also be a correct translation to say "Power that makes one like a God" or if there's some different contexts for that. Basically I want to know because of these literalists who say that "power of the gods" means that it has to come from the Godesses themselves.

The ToP is the power of Din.

Isn't that what they are? The "essence of the gods"?

I'm actually quoting this guy for truth.

Edited by CID Farwin, 22 May 2008 - 01:52 PM.

[FDL]

Again, what the hell? Doesn’t make sense. Why should the rules be different for the two of them. You are relating two totally separate games with two totally separate situations about the Triforce.

I don't really care whether you don't like it, those quotes I posted say exactly what I'm saying.

Link, as in a hero, was there. The skeleton Link meets in TP claims he took up life as the hero, as there are many mentions of a hero being alive in Hyrule, as the Zora Armor was made for him. It could be OOT Link, since he was in the Lost Woods after MM. (If you do not think it was the Lost Woods, fine, I think it was and I am not here to debate that with you.)

How is this refuting what I said?

That is because everyone is looking at precedent from previous Zelda games, which occur in a timeline separate from TP. OOT Future and WW are in another reality so whatever rules of the crests exist only for those games. When Link comes back to Hyrule at the end of OOT, he has the crest, but does he have a Triforce? Probably not, which would mean he symbolically has the power of the gods without actually having a Triforce. Like Duke said, its possible the crests have relation to the pieces themselves as they rest in the SR, but they do not have them physically.

Link had the ToC when he came back. Claiming it isn't when nothing even hints that that's the case simply because you're desperately trying to prove your theory right doesn't work. I'm honestly flabbergasted that anyone would try to use such shoddy logic as proof for your slly argument.

Since OOT Link had the power of the gods without having a Triforce, its possible for it to be passed down to TP Link in the same way.

He had the Triforce though, so no that isn't what happened. After you and Raian have complained about how we used other games to theorize about TP, how dare you now try to fan-retcon OoT using your speculation about TP?

If in the first sentence they claim he hoped to conquer the SR, then in the second they say he was subdued, in this context it isn’t ridiculous to conclude he never did.

But it doesn't prove, or necessarily even suggest that he didn't suceed. Much of the other evidence says the opposite of what you guys claim.

According to this, the ToP Ganondorf obtained in OOT wasn’t fully awakened, and only “awakened” more at the end? Sill doesn’t make sense.

No, it really does. In OoT the ToP clearly awakened and saved him from death even after he had been in possession of it for over seven years, so I don't see why you find it so unfeasible. If a 7-years older Ganondorf was unable to control the power of the gods(which is the Triforce), then a younger Ganondorf who has had it for far less time would have even less control over it. But their amount of control isn't taken into account when they are saved from danger by the Triforce.

There seems to be two major differences between the Child and Adult timelines here that everyone (except for FDL, that is) has missed. "Ganon would have taken over like he did in the Adult timeline." Um, no. Why did Ganondorf take over? Because Link disappeared for seven years. In the Child timeline Link is there, and as we see from TP, sages were there, too. What is it that ultimately defeats Ganondorf in the Adult OoT? Link and the Sages. Both of which are shown to be present in the Child timeline. It's not as much of a stretch as some would like to think.

CID, you're awesome. I'm glad to see someone else understands this.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 22 May 2008 - 02:05 PM.

[NM87]

"Ganon would have taken over like he did in the Adult timeline." Um, no. Why did Ganondorf take over? Because Link disappeared for seven years. There seems to be two major differences between the Child and Adult timelines here that everyone (except for FDL, that is) has missed. In the Child timeline Link is there, and as we see from TP, sages were there, too. What is it that ultimately defeats Ganondorf in the Adult OoT? Link and the Sages. Both of which are shown to be present in the Child timeline. It's not as much of a stretch as some would like to think.

That’s all true, and I am not claiming that neither Link nor Ganondorf don’t have the power the gods during that time…they just don’t have the Triforce pieces respectively. The skeleton Link and Ganondorf could possibly be chosen to posses the gods power without having a piece, or as Duke said, having relation to the pieces without having them.

Guhwa? Where'd this come from?

In the last scene where Link has the crest but obviously no Triforce. He could still have the power of the gods.

Anyway, I am not sure why the lot of you are so bent on proving this wrong. Its a theory I was thinking about, which left me with the burden of proof. There isn't anything that definately proves this wrong, but the evidence for it can not be shruged off as easily as all of you would like it to. I didn't know that this forum was about arguing meticulously about everything, which is what I attribute the bad reputation timeline theorists get nowadays. Whatever, I'll just know who not to talk about the Zelda timeline with in the future.

Edited by NM87, 22 May 2008 - 02:12 PM.

[CID Farwin]

"Ganon would have taken over like he did in the Adult timeline." Um, no. Why did Ganondorf take over? Because Link disappeared for seven years. There seems to be two major differences between the Child and Adult timelines here that everyone (except for FDL, that is) has missed. In the Child timeline Link is there, and as we see from TP, sages were there, too. What is it that ultimately defeats Ganondorf in the Adult OoT? Link and the Sages. Both of which are shown to be present in the Child timeline. It's not as much of a stretch as some would like to think.

That’s all true, and I am not claiming that neither Link nor Ganondorf don’t have the power the gods during that time…they just don’t have the Triforce pieces respectively. The skeleton Link and Ganondorf could possibly be chosen to posses the gods power without having a piece, or as Duke said, having relation to the pieces without having them.

buuuuut, why don't they have the Triforce? I understand that that was one major reason why.

In the last scene where Link has the crest but obviously no Triforce. He could still have the power of the gods.

...??

Anyway, I am not sure why the lot of you are so bent on proving this wrong. Its a theory I was thinking about, which left me with the burden of proof. There isn't anything that definately proves this wrong, but the evidence for it can not be shruged off as easily as all of you would like it to. I didn't know that this forum was about arguing meticulously about everything, which is what I attribute the bad reputation timeline theorists get nowadays. Whatever, I'll just know who not to talk about the Zelda timeline with in the future.

Um, we're debating. That involves trying to prove your opponent wrong. Myself, I find an unfounded claim, and try to prove it wrong. I guess you should have been warned that it gets worse than our controversial section here. And anyway, you think this is bad? You should have seen when Picman was here.

CID, you're awesome.

Hehe, why, thank you. I've got somethin' new for my sig.

Edited by CID Farwin, 22 May 2008 - 02:29 PM.

[NM87]

buuuuut, why don't they have the Triforce? I understand that that was one major reason why.

Do you want the argument from facts (which I am told is weak ) or the argument from the legend? I’ll give you from legend, because I like it more.

When Link returned from the future he had returned to a time of peace. Ganondorf shortly after attempted to conquer Hyrule, but failed because of OOT Link and the sages (where did the sages come from if it was so shortly after OOT? During OOT there were no sages which is why Link had to awaken them…).

Since the SR was undisturbed during this time, three chosen ones appear anyway, and we know that two of them, are the same chosen ones from the alternate future (Link and Ganondorf). Perhaps because of Destiny, the goddess granted the power they should have received in that future destiny thus awarding them their power…and not a Triforce specifically. So a crest appeared on their hands which the piece they were attributed to always was colored in to show which piece they relate to.

Basically, the main reason why they don’t have to have a Triforce is because it is never explicitly stated and that they just don’t have to.

...??

If Link was sent back to the time before he had met Zelda, then he didn’t pull the Master Sword, which means Ganondorf didn’t enter the SR, so the Triforce was never split. Although, Link still has a crest, even though technically he shouldn’t, so maybe it just means he is chosen to have the power of the gods, without the piece itself and just a relation to it.

Um, we're debating. That involves trying to prove your opponent wrong. Myself, I find an unfounded claim, and try to prove it wrong. I guess you should have been warned that it gets worse than our controversial section here.

I guess my time here will be short, because I can’t stand heavy duty arguing. We can’t just discuss things, we have to kill off everything.

Edited by NM87, 22 May 2008 - 02:43 PM.

[CID Farwin]

buuuuut, why don't they have the Triforce? I understand that that was one major reason why.

Do you want the argument from facts (which I am told is weak ) or the argument from the legend? I’ll give you from legend, because I like it more.

When Link returned from the future he had returned to a time of peace. Ganondorf shortly after attempted to conquer Hyrule, but failed because of OOT Link and the sages (where did the sages come from if it was so shortly after OOT? During OOT there were no sages which is why Link had to awaken them…).

Since the SR was undisturbed during this time, three chosen ones appear anyway, and we know that two of them, are the same chosen ones from the alternate future (Link and Ganondorf). Perhaps because of Destiny, the goddess granted the power they should have received in that future destiny thus awarding them their power…and not a Triforce specifically. So a crest appeared on their hands which the piece they were attributed to always was colored in to show which piece they relate to.

Basically, the main reason why they don’t have to have a Triforce is because it is never explicitly stated and that they just don’t have to.

Alright, alright. It doesn't have to be the Triforce because they (deliberately) didn't say it was. But this whole stuff about a 'connection' to the Triforce just seems unnecessary, when it could just as easily be that they have the Triforce. TMC doesn't have to be first in the timeline, but it's just that there's some pretty good reasons to think so, and the only real argument against it is that it doesn't 'need' to go there and there's nothing saying "this game is first." This is pretty much the same situation.

If Link was sent back to the time before he had met Zelda, then he didn’t pull the Master Sword, which means Ganondorf didn’t enter the SR, so the Triforce was never split. Although, Link still has a crest, even though technically he shouldn’t, so maybe it just means he is chosen to have the power of the gods, without the piece itself and just a relation to it.

Alright, here's the major difference between us, I just take the crest to mean that he's got the Triforce, i.e. he brought it back in time with him.

[FDL]

buuuuut, why don't they have the Triforce? I understand that that was one major reason why.

Do you want the argument from facts (which I am told is weak ) or the argument from the legend? I’ll give you from legend, because I like it more.

When Link returned from the future he had returned to a time of peace. Ganondorf shortly after attempted to conquer Hyrule, but failed because of OOT Link and the sages (where did the sages come from if it was so shortly after OOT? During OOT there were no sages which is why Link had to awaken them…).

Since the SR was undisturbed during this time, three chosen ones appear anyway, and we know that two of them, are the same chosen ones from the alternate future (Link and Ganondorf). Perhaps because of Destiny, the goddess granted the power they should have received in that future destiny thus awarding them their power…and not a Triforce specifically. So a crest appeared on their hands which the piece they were attributed to always was colored in to show which piece they relate to.

Basically, the main reason why they don’t have to have a Triforce is because it is never explicitly stated and that they just don’t have to.

Thing is, "don't have to" isn't the same thing as "don't". That's part of my problem with this. Lots of stuff points to them being the actual Triforce pieces.

If Link was sent back to the time before he had met Zelda, then he didn’t pull the Master Sword, which means Ganondorf didn’t enter the SR, so the Triforce was never split. Although, Link still has a crest, even though technically he shouldn’t, so maybe it just means he is chosen to have the power of the gods, without the piece itself and just a relation to it.

There is no reason to believe that Zelda sent him back to before he met her. In fact, this quote seems to say otherwise:

I was so young...I could not comprehend the consequences of trying to control the Sacred Realm.
I dragged you into it, too. Now it is time for me to make up for my mistakes...
You must lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time...
However, by doing this, the road between times will be closed...
Link, give the Ocarina to me...
As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it.

If Link was sent back to before they even met, why would he appear in the ToT, and have it required of him to close the DoT? The Triforce of Courage being in Link when he's in the past further makes me believe he was not sent back to any time other than the one he came from.

I guess my time here will be short, because I can’t stand heavy duty arguing. We can’t just discuss things, we have to kill off everything.

Just don't take this stuff too personally and you'll probably be okay.

Alright, here's the major difference between us, I just take the crest to mean that he's got the Triforce, i.e. he brought it back in time with him.

You should think that way. We have every reason to believe that's how it is, and the only reason people say otherwise is because they have some irrational need for the Triforce to not be in TP, simply because it's never actually referred to as the Triforce.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 22 May 2008 - 03:49 PM.

[LionHarted]

To CID Farwin: I was actually more under the impression that Ganondorf took over because no one knew what the carp was going on, with Link disappearing being the reason her plan to take the Triforce first didn't succeed rather than being the reason they couldn't stop Ganondorf from attacking once he got the Triforce of Power. It just so happens that they needed Link once Ganon took over.

This fits better with Twilight Princess, which says that the sages could beat Ganon because THEY got the drop on HIM, which would be because Link told them what the carp was going on, so they can spring to action before the temples get overrun with darkness and before their powers disappear as a result.

It is still there.

It is NOT there in the Temple of Time.

If Link was sent back to the time before he had met Zelda, then he didn’t pull the Master Sword, which means Ganondorf didn’t enter the SR, so the Triforce was never split.

Conversely, if Link was sent back to a time AFTER he originally pulled the Master Sword, then Ganondorf DID enter the Sacred Realm, which explains why his crest appears AFTER the Temple of Time scene, but not in the Temple of Time scene.

Edited by LionHarted, 22 May 2008 - 03:52 PM.

[Jumbie]

And also, since there's people who know Japanese better than me here, 'Power of the Gods' is 神の力, nay? (That's kami no ka? that looks like a ka, and I don't know any kanji, but I do know that that is the word for power.)

It is 神の力, correct. The kanji 力 is pronounced "chikara", while the identical-looking katakana カ is "ka".

So, unless I'm wrong here, it would also be a correct translation to say "Divine Power" just like divine prank.

That's true.

The question I have here is if it would also be a correct translation to say "Power that makes one like a God" or if there's some different contexts for that. Basically I want to know because of these literalists who say that "power of the gods" means that it has to come from the Godesses themselves.

Hmm, I think "power that makes one like a god" would be expressed as 神なる力 or similar, with なる meaning "to become". Different, at any rate.

We can only say the power is divine or of the gods.
Hey, it'd be interesting to see how they say in TMC "power to become like a god"!

Edited by Jumbie, 22 May 2008 - 04:21 PM.

[Ize]

Ganndorf used his ToP to conquer Hyrule inmediately after he gained it. It's in OoT:

We Sheikah have served the
royalty of Hyrule from generation
to generation as attendants.
However...
On that day seven years ago,
Ganondorf suddenly attacked...
and Hyrule Castle surrendered
after a short time.

Clearly Ganondorf took the ToP and conquered Hyrule 'in a short while' (and obviously short while doesn't mean like 5 years or something), the same should have happened for TP Ganondorf, yet he was defeated and imprisoned. If Ganondorf had the ToP before, he should have succeeded, because we already saw the same thing happen in OoT. He used it to conquer Hyrule, not just to revive at the end of the game.

This can more than likely be chalked up to different writers writing each of these games, and taking different spins on each character.

Yeah, that's obvious. Various writers will have diffeent interpretations of Ganondorf, but it still makes sense. He didn't even wanted to kill Link at the end of WW. This very same person, portrayed in three different games, has one through different experiences, so the Ganondorf from TP will be different from his WW version because they have experienced different things, that's all I was saying.

There seems to be two major differences between the Child and Adult timelines here that everyone (except for FDL, that is) has missed. "Ganon would have taken over like he did in the Adult timeline." Um, no. Why did Ganondorf take over? Because Link disappeared for seven years. In the Child timeline Link is there, and as we see from TP, sages were there, too. What is it that ultimately defeats Ganondorf in the Adult OoT? Link and the Sages. Both of which are shown to be present in the Child timeline. It's not as much of a stretch as some would like to think.

But wasn't the whole point of making Link sleep for 7 years doing it so that he could wield the master sword? Child link would have been powerless against adult Ganondorf with the ToP, because the only known way of defeating Ganonorf was with the master sword, and link was too young. If child link was able to take down Ganondorf, he would have just killed him in a fight at the start of the game instead of going through the three temples and making sure he didn't enter the SR. He was learly weaker, because he was younger, had no magic and had no master sword. Of course then he would get the triforce, grow and kick Ganondorf's ass, but tt's seven years later. Even if child Link helped the sages subdue ganondorf in TP's backtory, he wouldnt have been the decisive factor in the battle. Back then he was just a forest boy with a sword doing his best. And don't argue that ALttP's link was in the same situation, because that's another game, and another link.

[MikePetersSucks]

That is because everyone is looking at precedent from previous Zelda games, which occur in a timeline separate from TP. OOT Future and WW are in another reality so whatever rules of the crests exist only for those games. When Link comes back to Hyrule at the end of OOT, he has the crest, but does he have a Triforce? Probably not, which would mean he symbolically has the power of the gods without actually having a Triforce. Like Duke said, its possible the crests have relation to the pieces themselves as they rest in the SR, but they do not have them physically.

Since when did time travel change the metaphysical rules of how the Triforce works?

Since OOT Link had the power of the gods without having a Triforce, its possible for it to be passed down to TP Link in the same way.

The ass is not a citable source of information.

And I agree with LionHarted again. Link was sent back to AFTER he pulled the Master Sword, giving Ganondorf ample time to claim the Triforce of Power.

[Duke Serkol]

Proof? The Minish are stated to have created many magical gifts and given them to the Hyrulians, "Ever since the first time they visited and gave us the Picori Sword." Said sword was given with a golden light. We're supposed to believe that they made EVERY OTHER GIFT except the Light Force?

Yes. There was no reason not to state so if it was the Minish who had created the Light Force. Besides, if they could create it, Vaati wouldn't be looking all over Hyrule to get it, he'd just make it on his own or steal it from another Minish like he did the mage's cap. And then there's PH which explains that force is inherent to living beings, so it can't be constructed.

A single Triforce part doesn't grant nigh-omnipotence though.

To that I agree.

Well, we know the Triforce can't technically be stolen if it's residing in someone, and we also know it can't be passed down genetically, so yea.

Whoever spoke of genes? In TWW Tetra possessed part of the Triforce of Wisdom without being aware of it. In TP Link has his crest from birth but doesn't know its significance. And lastsly, single Triforce parts can certainly be taken away.

You're one to talk, Mr. "POWER OF THE GODDESSES LOLOL."

Oh my, I am utterly defeated by your awesome mocking powers. That is most certainly a perfect mimicking of my posts, as everyone can plainly see. Ah no wait, I meant to say that's a perfect mimicking of Picman. Whoops, missed the mark there.

Yea, but they're so minor that who gives a shit? The Light Force has more in common with Force Gems than the Triforce.

I concur. But TMC made it sound otherwise.

We've never actually seen what happens when someone dies when a Triforce piece is within them. Perhaps it goes back to the Sacred Realm, or it reincarnates with them, or it goes to another chosen, or who knows what else?

I understand you don't believe Ganon had the Triforce within him in LoZ. Please understand that I think otherwise. Not to mention that legend of the Triforce in OoT made no mention of any such thing, thus implying that Ganondorf was to get the remaning parts from those chosen by destiny to carry them.

"Ganon would have taken over like he did in the Adult timeline." Um, no. Why did Ganondorf take over? Because Link disappeared for seven years. There seems to be two major differences between the Child and Adult timelines here that everyone (except for FDL, that is) has missed. In the Child timeline Link is there, and as we see from TP, sages were there, too. What is it that ultimately defeats Ganondorf in the Adult OoT? Link and the Sages. Both of which are shown to be present in the Child timeline. It's not as much of a stretch as some would like to think.

But that doesn't make much sense, because Link can't use the Master Sword which he absolutely needs to fight Ganondorf. And clearly the Sages were there in the adult timeline too (or do you expect them to appear out of thin air) in which they did not prove a problem to Triforce empowered Ganondorf.
...crap Ize beat me to this.

Alright, alright. It doesn't have to be the Triforce because they (deliberately) didn't say it was. But this whole stuff about a 'connection' to the Triforce just seems unnecessary, when it could just as easily be that they have the Triforce.

I would point out the ending again but... I'm tired.

Alright, here's the major difference between us, I just take the crest to mean that he's got the Triforce, i.e. he brought it back in time with him.

Me too actually. And I reckon that's an unpopular opinion (most people think he received it again in the past)

[Hero of Legend]

Hey, it'd be interesting to see how they say in TMC "power to become like a god"!

Ehm, forgive me if I am wrong about this, but doesn't Majin translate as both "sorcerer/demon" and "Demon God" depending on the Kanji used? And I believe Vaati is 魔神* (in FS/FSA, at least)? If so, couldn't there be some relation here? I mean, NoA never admitted Vaati was a demon, so they'd naturally leave that part out.

*Babel Fish and Wikipedia say "Demon God"

Edited by Hero of Legend, 22 May 2008 - 05:37 PM.

[Jumbie]

Hey, it'd be interesting to see how they say in TMC "power to become like a god"!

Ehm, forgive me if I am wrong about this, but doesn't Majin translate as both "sorcerer/demon" and "Demon God" depending on the Kanji used? And I believe Vaati is 魔神* (in FS/FSA, at least)? If so, couldn't there be some relation here? I mean, NoA never admitted Vaati was a demon, so they'd naturally leave that part out.

*Babel Fish and Wikipedia say "Demon God"

Ahh, of course, I forgot about that. Vaati is indeed a 魔神, demon god, so that explains the NoA translation. Thanks for reminding me!
Yes, majin can be written either 魔神 or 魔人, Wikipedia is correct about it all.

Ah btw, 魔人 is the title of Majora's Wrath, so "Mujura's Demon".

[CID Farwin]

But that doesn't make much sense, because Link can't use the Master Sword which he absolutely needs to fight Ganondorf. And clearly the Sages were there in the adult timeline too (or do you expect them to appear out of thin air) in which they did not prove a problem to Triforce empowered Ganondorf.
...crap Ize beat me to this.

Who said Link had to fight Ganondorf? All he's got to do is tip off Zelda (which I assume OoT's ending is,) and maybe awaken some sages (which he doesn't need the Master Sword for.) Aren't the sages the ones who dealt with him in TP? Like LionHarted said, the Sages got the drop on Ganondorf, not the other way 'round.

I would point out the ending again but... I'm tired.

What, the Triforce doesn't appear after Ganondorf dies like in in the first game (before most of the Triforce Mythos came about?) You can't accept a retcon for a 20 year old game, but a 10 year old one's OK.

Or are you speaking of something else?

Me too actually. And I reckon that's an unpopular opinion (most people think he received it again in the past)

Yeah, I thought you were the one that came up with that. Personally, I think it could swing either way, but there is possible explanations of TP/divine prank if Ganondorf never reached the Sacred Realm.

[NM87]

Alright, alright. It doesn't have to be the Triforce because they (deliberately) didn't say it was. But this whole stuff about a 'connection' to the Triforce just seems unnecessary, when it could just as easily be that they have the Triforce. TMC doesn't have to be first in the timeline, but it's just that there's some pretty good reasons to think so, and the only real argument against it is that it doesn't 'need' to go there and there's nothing saying "this game is first." This is pretty much the same situation.

That is all true, but I also think it is supported with other factors. I believe the SR was never disturbed during that time, so I still think Ganondorf never entered it. Ize pointed out that the only weapon to defeat Ganondorf is the Master Sword, something Link could not wield when a child, so if Link was sent back to the time he first pulled it, then he would be helpless against Ganondorf. If we know Ganondorf attacked a short time after obtaining the ToP, the events in TP would have been put into motion right after TP, which is unlikely, since Link went to Termina not three months afterward.

True, Ockhams Razor states we are multiplying entities beyond what is strictly necessary, but our argument toward that would be the it is strictly necessary to explain this phenomena.

Alright, here's the major difference between us, I just take the crest to mean that he's got the Triforce, i.e. he brought it back in time with him.

The only objection I have to that is the fact it was separated from him when he “left through the flows of time“. Yet, I do see why you are skeptical about this, and thats perfectly fine.

Conversely, if Link was sent back to a time AFTER he originally pulled the Master Sword, then Ganondorf DID enter the Sacred Realm, which explains why his crest appears AFTER the Temple of Time scene, but not in the Temple of Time scene.

The ending scene implies this was their first meeting as Zelda gives the same reaction she did when they had first met. If he was sent back to the time after he had pulled it, what would be the point of the entire game? Even if he was sent back to the time right before he had pulled the Master Sword, the crest not appearing there and then appearing later on could mean that it appeared at the time it would have appeared, had he pulled the Master Sword in the adult timeline. Which would compliment the “destiny” argument that the goddesses granted the three chosen ones the power they were destined to receive, even with the meddling of Zelda sending Link back to his original time. In the statement “As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it.” Zelda implies that she is dong this out of her own free will, not by the will of the gods.

In response to the idea the sages got the drop on Ganondorf - I don’t think it would matter. Clearly the sages are no match for him when he is at his max power as seen in OOT, as he can easily kill them off as seen in the execution scene. This is why they too need another who can match his power and carries the blade of evils bane.

“A single Triforce part doesn't grant nigh-omnipotence though.”

I am not responding to the person who wrote, this, I am responding to the idea. If all the while the rest of you have been equating “power of the gods” to definitely mean a Triforce, and if a Triforce is supposedly “Din herself” or “the essence of the gods power”, why now does it not grant the full omnipotence it stands for?

Edited by NM87, 22 May 2008 - 10:03 PM.

[Showsni]

The ending scene implies this was their first meeting as Zelda gives the same reaction she did when they had first met. If he was sent back to the time after he had pulled it, what would be the point of the entire game?

Surely you mean the opposite? If he's sent back to before he pulled it, then the entire game has no point. He may as well have travelled back to that point immediately instead of bothering with wakening sages and fighting Ganon.

[FDL]

Me too actually. And I reckon that's an unpopular opinion (most people think he received it again in the past)

Yeah, I thought you were the one that came up with that. Personally, I think it could swing either way, but there is possible explanations of TP/divine prank if Ganondorf never reached the Sacred Realm.

I'd just like to clarify for the sake of making sure no one's confused that I was not saying I believe this theory correct, I was merely responding to the "It was the Triforce" part. I mainly disagree with the idea of it being the ToC from the future(and the other Triforce being undisturbed) because of the point NM87 made below, and the fact that I believe it's the actual Triforce in TP. I'm actually surprised, CID, I thought you were arguing that it was as well.

That is all true, but I also think it is supported with other factors. I believe the SR was never disturbed during that time, so I still think Ganondorf never entered it. Ize pointed out that the only weapon to defeat Ganondorf is the Master Sword, something Link could not wield when a child, so if Link was sent back to the time he first pulled it, then he would be helpless against Ganondorf. If we know Ganondorf attacked a short time after obtaining the ToP, the events in TP would have been put into motion right after TP, which is unlikely, since Link went to Termina not three months afterward.

Thing is, a "short time later" could mean many things. It doesn't mean that he attacked a week later, or even a month later. Besides, Link's meeting with Zelda at the end of the game could have been an even shorter time later. I mean, if you'll remember, when you go back in time all the other times Ganondorf is implied as being somewhere else. For all we know, that's when he was trying to prepare to conquer Hyrule.

The ending scene implies this was their first meeting as Zelda gives the same reaction she did when they had first met. If he was sent back to the time after he had pulled it, what would be the point of the entire game? Even if he was sent back to the time right before he had pulled the Master Sword, the crest not appearing there and then appearing later on could mean that it appeared at the time it would have appeared, had he pulled the Master Sword in the adult timeline. Which would compliment the “destiny” argument that the goddesses granted the three chosen ones the power they were destined to receive, even with the meddling of Zelda sending Link back to his original time. In the statement “As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it.” Zelda implies that she is dong this out of her own free will, not by the will of the gods.

Nothing except the fact that Zelda has her hand over her mouth makes it seem like it's their first meeting again, I'd say. I mean, in their first meeting Link has a fairy and doesn't have the Triforce on his hand. I'd also like to know why Link is still known as a legendary hero to all the peoples of Hyrule even in a timeline where he supposedly did absolutely nothing except get chased out of his own village and break into the castle and how Zelda convinced anyone this time if no one aside from Impa and Link believed her before.

In response to the idea the sages got the drop on Ganondorf - I don’t think it would matter. Clearly the sages are no match for him when he is at his max power as seen in OOT, as he can easily kill them off as seen in the execution scene. This is why they too need another who can match his power and carries the blade of evils bane.

The game explicitly says they caught him unawares and even suggests that's the main reason they were able to capture him.

I am not responding to the person who wrote, this, I am responding to the idea. If all the while the rest of you have been equating “power of the gods” to definitely mean a Triforce, and if a Triforce is supposedly “Din herself” or “the essence of the gods power”, why now does it not grant the full omnipotence it stands for?

Because it doesn't. We've never seen this be the case in any Zelda-related thing, so it's not the case.

The ending scene implies this was their first meeting as Zelda gives the same reaction she did when they had first met. If he was sent back to the time after he had pulled it, what would be the point of the entire game?

Surely you mean the opposite? If he's sent back to before he pulled it, then the entire game has no point. He may as well have travelled back to that point immediately instead of bothering with wakening sages and fighting Ganon.

This is a really good point as well.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 23 May 2008 - 09:08 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yes. There was no reason not to state so if it was the Minish who had created the Light Force. Besides, if they could create it, Vaati wouldn't be looking all over Hyrule to get it, he'd just make it on his own or steal it from another Minish like he did the mage's cap. And then there's PH which explains that force is inherent to living beings, so it can't be constructed.

Keep in mind that Vaati is only a young, apprentice Minish and that even the Minish Cap, which was made by Elzo, a wise, ancient and powerful Minish, pales in comparison to the Light Force, which was brought by the ancient Picori, who are said to have stronger magic than their modern incarnations.

Besides, maybe the Minish used Life Force to construct the Light Force, like using the willingly given life energy of their fallen comrades or something, who the hell knows? The Light Force was introduced before PH anyway.

Whoever spoke of genes? In TWW Tetra possessed part of the Triforce of Wisdom without being aware of it. In TP Link has his crest from birth but doesn't know its significance. And lastsly, single Triforce parts can certainly be taken away.

Being passed a physical Triforce piece as a family heirloom isn't the same as having the Light Force flow through you as a bloodline trait through the generations. And yes, while Triforce pieces can be taken, it's only when all three are brought together when they return to their neutral form. You can't just rip someone open and take the Triforce out of their gut or something.

I am not responding to the person who wrote, this, I am responding to the idea. If all the while the rest of you have been equating “power of the gods” to definitely mean a Triforce, and if a Triforce is supposedly “Din herself” or “the essence of the gods power”, why now does it not grant the full omnipotence it stands for?

...yea...um...no one's claiming that a Triforce piece grants you the entirety of a goddess's power, just a microcosm.

[CID Farwin]

Me too actually. And I reckon that's an unpopular opinion (most people think he received it again in the past)

Yeah, I thought you were the one that came up with that. Personally, I think it could swing either way, but there is possible explanations of TP/divine prank if Ganondorf never reached the Sacred Realm.

I'd just like to clarify for the sake of making sure no one's confused that I was not saying I believe this theory correct, I was merely responding to the "It was the Triforce" part. I mainly disagree with the idea of it being the ToC from the future(and the other Triforce being undisturbed) because of the point NM87 made below, and the fact that I believe it's the actual Triforce in TP. I'm actually surprised, CID, I thought you were arguing that it was as well.

Well, I deliberately left it vague, because the rest of this is completely theoretical, and has no real grounds except for my perception of time travel/paradoxes.

It's not the actual ToC from the adult timeline, because 1) Super duper über paradox, with two Triforces of Courage. 2) the ToC from the adult timeline is still there in TWW, just split up(as a result of Link severing the link between times or otherwise). My theoretical two cents is that in order to compensate for the über paradox, Link instead gets the ToC from the child timeline. (which again, I think DS actually came up with) Since someone has the Triforce, that means that it's split, so the other two pieces go to Zelda and Ganny ("divine prank," anyone?) Ganondorf doesn't take over Hyrule like in Adult OoT because he doesn't know that he's got the Triforce of Power (plus what I've already pointed out, with the whole Link's there and so are the Sages). The same is true of after he gets captured.

This theory makes sense, because as I said in previous posts, Ganondorf not knowing that this power was the Triforce would justify his actions in TP. 1)"He doesn't go after the other two pieces" check. He doesn't know that he's got a piece (or maybe that others were granted this power. Maybe), so he would never have thought of it. 2) "He would have taken over Hyrule like in the adult OoT" I've already addressed. a) the sages overpowered him, and b) he didn't know the extent of the power(or perhaps even know of it altogether) until it revived him.

Of course, this is only necessary if Link was sent to a time before he met Zelda, (and thusly he wouldn't be the hero of the Gorons or Zoras) or at least right before he pulled the sword (he would be the hero, the door of time would be open, and Ganondorf never entered the Sacred Realm. Should Link go back anytime before he pulled the sword, right before makes the most sense.) As opposed to right after he pulled the sword like in the rest of the game, which works too, you just still have to explain the Ganondorf stuff, while this theory explains itself.

This stuff could also be justification for 'connections' to the Triforce, except 1)only Link would have the connection, and 2) it would be to the Adult Timeline Triforce.

The ending scene implies this was their first meeting as Zelda gives the same reaction she did when they had first met. If he was sent back to the time after he had pulled it, what would be the point of the entire game? Even if he was sent back to the time right before he had pulled the Master Sword, the crest not appearing there and then appearing later on could mean that it appeared at the time it would have appeared, had he pulled the Master Sword in the adult timeline. Which would compliment the “destiny” argument that the goddesses granted the three chosen ones the power they were destined to receive, even with the meddling of Zelda sending Link back to his original time. In the statement “As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it.” Zelda implies that she is dong this out of her own free will, not by the will of the gods.

All we can say for certain is that Zelda sent Link back to a time where history could be changed. She knew full well what she was doing with her "the doorway between times will close" and whatnot. Whether that point was before Link met Zelda, before he pulled the Master Sword, or after he pulled the Master Sword is what's not specified.