323 replies to this topic

[Hero of Legend]

Raian said

The power of the gods represents absolute power to Ganondorf, which is why he compares it to the Fused Shadows.

Yes, but that doesn’t change my point, which was that the story would have worked without the ‘power of the gods’. All it would take was a few changes and to have Ganondorf (or Zant) use the Fused Shadow instead.

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Ganondorf's own evil magic was not nearly as strong, and that's why (like the Dark Tribe) he initially failed to conquer Hyrule.

That's just plain false and you know it. The shadow clan succeeded; they were stopped by the gods themselves (which ties into my point about Midna).

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Doesn't that just apply to the chosen who possess the power of the gods? Ganondorf was chosen to wield power and Link was chosen as his antithesis; I don't see how Midna fits into that.

Well, it's obvious by context that fate is a power that affects everyone in the Zelda mythos - or did you not notice how well everything fit together? Ganondorf was executed, but saved by the gods, and sent to the Twilight Realm: causing the events of Twilight Princess. Thus, Midna was important because the goddesses chose to involve her in these events. Zelda even says it was by their design that they met - which means the parting was destined as well.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 18 May 2008 - 05:39 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Hero of Legend, on May 18 2008, 11:29 PM, said:

I like your summary, Duke. I will point out that it is not an irrefutable fact that Ganondorf received his power during the execution scene (however it would make sense with how the goddesses apparently orchestrate events in TP) but as a whole, it makes a lot of sense.

Thanks
My "proof" that Ganondorf obtained the power of the gods during the execution would be this consideration:

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an incurable wound remains, making it all the more clear Ganondorf could NOT break free before being stabbed or he would have avoided it

I also very much doubt the Sages would have been succesful in capturing him, if he already had the power to break the chains binding him. Not to mention this it the most immediate interpretation of what the Sages say (about Ganonbeing captured, with no mention of him succeeding first and then the whole divine prank thing).
I consider all of that more than enough to dismiss the remote possibility of Ganondorf obtaining the Triforce part earlier as implausible.

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In general we need to decide if the omission of the word "Triforce" in TP was meant to signify something or was merely intended as a nod to the fans; evidence seem contradictory on this point, though Ganondorf's final words are plain enough.

Speaking of that, I'm not sure how they are supposed to foreshadow ALttP, or any game for that matter. We are so used to the Triforce marks by now, we often forget they were not present in earlier games; even AoL only had one person with a mark, and Ganondorf speaks specifically of three. As such, it is likely a spiritual reference, if anything.

That's right. In LoZ Link got two Triforce parts, but AoL's prologue makes it evident that he had no mark on his hand during it. And up to now, in no game besides TP the three characters have Triforce parts "just because". Perhaps this is why Ganondorf' speech was cut, because while explaining the creator's intention with the whole power of the gods thing in TP and referencing later games in the timeline with the beginning of bloodsmeared history concept, it could end up murking everything by suggesting that this arbitrary attribution of the Triforce would occur in the very same manner.

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if, as you say, TP is supposed to make way for ALttP, I have some trouble understanding why Nintendo felt it necessary to include the Triforce marks at all. Ganondorf was supposed to posses’ terrible power even before the execution (he was known as the demon thief, after all) and the Fused Shadow was right there, ready to be misused. The plot would have worked without the marks. So if you ask me, if Nintendo wanted TP to mark the end of the OoT aftermath and make way for the IW, they could've done a lot better.

Admittdely, this might be the result of Nintendo’s philosophy of prioritizing the stand-alone game over the overarching story, as well as what I deem to be a somewhat rushed and confused plot.

I concur. Odds are they "figured" it wasn't kosher to have a major game with Ganondorf, Link and Zelda but no Triforce to be seen at all. So for the sake of OoT fanboys the hand crests got worked into the story. Or at least that could be a possible explanation *lol*

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I admit, the story would’ve lost something without Ganondorf’s decree about the fate imposed by the goddesses

...or it could be because of that too

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I’ve finally understood the meaning of the ending. Remember, both Zelda and Ganondorf say these events occurred at the bidding of the gods; which includes the destruction of the Mirror of Twilight. Ergo, it was Midna’s destiny to give up her newfound friendship (and possibly love) for the sake of the greater good. And that is a pretty harsh (and personal) punishment from the goddesses for her ancestors’ crimes, I’d say.

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did you not notice how well everything fit together? Ganondorf was executed, but saved by the gods, and sent to the Twilight Realm: causing the events of Twilight Princess. Thus, Midna was important because the goddesses chose to involve her into these events. Zelda even says it was by their design that they met - which means the parting was destined as well.

I think I understand what you mean. I too have a similar interpretation (again from my Q&A):

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Midna broke the mirror so that no one could again attempt what Zant and Ganondorf did: putting the two worlds against one another. Not to mention that her people held nothing but resentment against the inhabitants of the world of Light, so leaving that link open wouldn not have been a benefit for anybody.
However, on the note of resentment, putting an end to that may be what the mirror was meant for. Though Zelda was hoping for them to meet again, her statement about the mirror existing to let them meet isn't necessarily rejected by Midna shattering it. During her journey with Link, Midna had to re-evaluate her beliefs (in particular concerning light dwellers). Changing the mindset of the Twili's ruler, making her understand that living in Twilight has never really been a punishment but a way for the Gods to help them better themselves... that may be what the mirror was meant for, and realizing this Midna may have decided it had served its purpose (and destroyed it for the reasons above).

As you say, this couldn't happen had Ganon not been saved when the Sages executed him, causing them to banish him in the Twilight Realm and starting the chain of events that begun TP.
However, I wouldn't view Midna's task at the end as a punishment, more like a noble burden she chose to accept on herself.

[Raien]

Hero of Legend, on May 18 2008, 11:23 PM, said:

That's just plain false and you know it. The shadow clan succeeded; they were stopped by the gods themselves (which ties into my point about Midna).

Sorry. Yes, you're right. It doesn't change the meaning of Ganondorf's comparison between the power of the gods and the power of the Dark Tribe, but I can see your point now.

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Well, it's obvious by context that fate is a power that affects everyone in the Zelda mythos - or did you not notice how well everything fit together? Ganondorf was executed, but saved by the gods, and sent to the Twilight Realm: causing the events of Twilight Princess. Thus, Midna was important because the goddesses chose to involve her in these events. Zelda even says it was by their design that they met - which means the parting was destined as well.

It's true that according to logic, destiny affects everyone in the Zelda mythos, but there's normally an active distinction of certain destined events, which often relates in some way to divine intervention. Like the Triforce-splitting in OoT, for example, or the Master Sword sealing the Hero of Time away for seven years. In that context, the destiny that applies to the chosen trio is not related to the fate that Midna would break the Twilight Mirror. It's an action that Midna chose to perform, rather than an action the goddesses chose for her.

Edited by Raian, 18 May 2008 - 06:09 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

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Because Ganondorf can't take those powers, since they aren't Triforce pieces?

He'd still display interest in taking them if he wanted the power, even if he couldn't.

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In the midpoint of the game Midna receives all of Zelda's powers. Surely then Midna would have to have a crest if Zelda had held the Triforce of Wisdom. Clearly this inconsistency strengthens the argument that the Triforce was not present in TP.

It really doesn't. Zelda's the one who got the Triforce of Wisdom, not Midna. It's imbued in Zelda's soul, who just happens to be inhabiting Zelda. Even if it is a Power of the Gods, the same crest rules would seem to apply.

[CID Farwin]

Suppose TP Ganondorf had the Triforce, but was completely unaware that that was what he held. All he knew was that he had suddenly obtained a great amount of power. Would not this fit with TP? Ganondorf's aims would be different as he did not know that he held the Triforce, and thusly would not aim to attain the other two pieces. Would he not assume that he was chosen by the Gods to house this grand power? Surely, being granted power after his attempt to grab the Triforce was thwarted would mean that he was meant to have this power, that he was even meant to rule Hyrule!

If we are to assume that Ganondorf was gifted the 'Power of the Gods' at the moment of his execution, are we also to assume that Link was granted the 'Power of the Gods' when he first entered the Twilight? And when was Zelda gifted her power? Would it not be possible for Link and Ganondorf to have the power, but simply be unaware? Is this not also true for the Triforce? In OoT Link certainly was unaware that he held a Triforce piece before Zelda told him.

And if Ganondorf never entered the 'Sacred Realm,' but instead attained the Triforce by 'maybe some sort of divine prank,' why should he know that what he holds is the Triforce?

As far as I see, the only arguments for the 'Power of the Gods' to not be the Triforce are 1) the absence of the word "Triforce" from TP altogether, and 2) 'it fits better with ALttP that way.' Whereas there is definite reason to believe that they hold the Triforce.

Edited by CID Farwin, 19 May 2008 - 02:00 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

Duke Serkol said

However, I wouldn't view Midna's task at the end as a punishment, more like a noble burden she chose to accept on herself.

Yes, it was a punishment she accepted willingly and without bitterness - so perhaps it wasn't a punishment at all. However, I do believe the destruction of the mirror was the intent of the goddesses, and so it did happen by their design. That was the point I was trying to make.

Raian said

It's true that according to logic, destiny affects everyone in the Zelda mythos, but there's normally an active distinction of certain destined events, which often relates in some way to divine intervention. Like the Triforce-splitting in OoT, for example, or the Master Sword sealing the Hero of Time away for seven years. In that context, the destiny that applies to the chosen trio is not related to the fate that Midna would break the Twilight Mirror. It's an action that Midna chose to perform, rather than an action the goddesses chose for her.

I agree. They are not directly related, but consider this; what was the point of Twilight Princess? Why was Ganondorf granted the power of the gods? In other words, what good came of it? It had little to do with Link and Zelda, or Hyrule for that matter. No, it was the redemption of the Twili that was important here. That in itself is evidence of what I am saying. But in terms of the Mirror, I don't think Zelda would have said their meeting was destined, only to have Midna destroy the Mirror right afterwards if there were no connection. Now, Midna admitted had previously admitted that she destroyed the Mirror because she thought that was best; but why did she think that? Well, people have often speculated why the goddesses would create an evil Mirror. And that's the answer - because, by their design, it was up to Midna to denote for her ancestor's crimes and accept the fate imposed on her people by the gods. This is made even more apparent by the fact that only she could truly destroy it; a feat not even Ganondorf's power could achieve. Of course, Midna was not actively forced to do this, but if she had not, more evil would have come of it; and that’s similar to how Ganondorf’s defiance of the gods ultimately ended in his own destruction.

Of course, another reason the Mirror was destroyed was so that Nintendo would not need to bother with the Twilight Realm in future games, but the in-game explanation was this, I am sure.

CID Farwin said

If we are to assume that Ganondorf was gifted the 'Power of the Gods' at the moment of his execution, are we also to assume that Link was granted the 'Power of the Gods' when he first entered the Twilight? And when was Zelda gifted her power?

No, it is obvious Link and Zelda had held their power since birth. At least Link had always had the Triforce mark on his hand, and that fits with Ganondorf's final words. The same words also imply it is not the Triforce proper that is seen in TP, but that's up to personal interpretation.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 19 May 2008 - 02:31 AM.

[FDL]

Raian, on May 17 2008, 05:59 PM, said:

If it was the same, Ganondorf would be actively searching for the Triforce pieces of Courage and Wisdom, thus mentioning this search in the game, and Link's/Zelda's/Midna's crests would be resonating when they all get close to each other. Obviously, the situation isn't the same (or at least the context referred to the players is not the same), and we should as theorists ask why it isn't the same. That the crests are not Triforce pieces is just one explanation.

He was searching for it. If you'd notice, everything that people consider "plotholes" in TP are explained if you realize that the actual Triforce is in it. Why did the Bulblin's raid Ordon Village? Because they knew the ToC was close by but weren't sure who had it. Why did the Shadow Beast drag Link all the way to Hyrule Castle after seeing the mark? Because Zant was trying to unify the Triforce for his master. What is the "power" that Midna wants to restore to Zelda? The ToW, which Zelda's soul has been imbued with. Why did Ganondorf sit on his ass after he was revived rather than do anything that would "unify light and shadow"? Because he needed the "True Force" to get his wish. There are more examples but I think that's enough.

As for the "Ganondorf couldn't break the chains" point, you guys are working under the misconception that the Triforce automatically grants the user amazing power. That doesn't seem to be the case. As we've seen in TWW, no power is automatically gained by being "chosen to bear the Triforce". If you compare Link before you open the passage into Hyrule and after there's no difference. In fact, Link is still beaten by Ganondorf. Furthermore, the end of OoT heavily hints that Ganondorf did not have full control over the Triforce of Power until he was beaten by Link and buried under the rubble. Zelda's words and the fact that he didn't turn into Ganon until he was basically dead tell us that this is extremely likely. Also, compare the ending of OoT to the execution scene in TP. There are many similarities. Both have Ganondorf being near death and then suddenly gaining super strength and pupil-less eyes. Even the music playing references the ending of OoT. I have to say, I suspect Ganondorf would have turned into his pig form right at the Arbiter's Grounds if not for the Sages using the Mirror.

Now I'm not saying some of youse guys, particularly DS, haven't thought this out [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. You all clearly have. However, I still don't believe what you guys are saying is true. The stuff I've mentioned above, along with the DoT being open and Link having the ToC in the ending of OoT, make me pretty sure of what I'm saying.

[Marty]

I must say, after my own impressions and the various arguments presented in this thread I was pretty much decided that the Triforce was not present in TP, but after that very strong and well-reasoned argument by Fierce Diety Link I'm firmly back on the fence.

My interpretation of Ganondorf's actions after his revival were that the crystal around Hyrule castle was a gateway that needed time to phase-in to the realm. Also, sitting in Hyrule castle just seems to be his style. Afterall, thats all he did in the adult timeline of OoT.

The attack on Ordon village, I associated that with an attack on the final light spirit. The children were present and therefore taken prisoner. Link was taken back to Hyrule castle as he had been affected differently by the Twilight and presumably Zant would want to lock him up under closer guard.

MPS - You'll have to clarify your crest rules for me

Edited by Marty, 19 May 2008 - 12:23 PM.

[NM87]

Fierce Deity Link, on May 19 2008, 12:28 PM, said:

He was searching for it. If you'd notice, everything that people consider "plotholes" in TP are explained if you realize that the actual Triforce is in it. Why did the Bulblin's raid Ordon Village? Because they knew the ToC was close by but weren't sure who had it. Why did the Shadow Beast drag Link all the way to Hyrule Castle after seeing the mark? Because Zant was trying to unify the Triforce for his master. What is the "power" that Midna wants to restore to Zelda? The ToW, which Zelda's soul has been imbued with. Why did Ganondorf sit on his ass after he was revived rather than do anything that would "unify light and shadow"? Because he needed the "True Force" to get his wish. There are more examples but I think that's enough.

You twisted every one of those examples. The Bulbins were attacking the village because it was one of the last places on the map still peaceful. It is never stated why the Shadow Beasts capture Link, and one can draw their own conclusions. The power Midna wants to restore is the power of the goddesses, which can reside in someone regardless of owning a Triforce. Ganondorf remaining inactive after his revival is due to the fact he had already become the king of light and dark, at least in his mind. He completed his goal. If he was looking for the other Triforces, he would have searched, as Raian has stated.

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As for the "Ganondorf couldn't break the chains" point, you guys are working under the misconception that the Triforce automatically grants the user amazing power. That doesn't seem to be the case. As we've seen in TWW, no power is automatically gained by being "chosen to bear the Triforce". If you compare Link before you open the passage into Hyrule and after there's no difference. In fact, Link is still beaten by Ganondorf.

Citing WW Link, or any Link as an example of the Triforce not granting immediate power is benign. Link is the character the player controls, if he gains omni-potency, then he wouldn’t need to lift a finger any longer in the dungeons and against bosses ho are meek in the face of the gods.

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Furthermore, the end of OoT heavily hints that Ganondorf did not have full control over the Triforce of Power until he was beaten by Link and buried under the rubble. Zelda's words and the fact that he didn't turn into Ganon until he was basically dead tell us that this is extremely likely. Also, compare the ending of OoT to the execution scene in TP. There are many similarities. Both have Ganondorf being near death and then suddenly gaining super strength and pupil-less eyes. Even the music playing references the ending of OoT. I have to say, I suspect Ganondorf would have turned into his pig form right at the Arbiter's Grounds if not for the Sages using the Mirror.

Ganondorf did not die after the first half of the battle in OOT, nor was he near death. He did not know how to control the power of the gods and therefore turned into a monster, and turned back when he was subdued. His is why the anon we see in OOT and TP is merely a Ganon hat this specific Ganondorf turns into when angry or whatever.

You also seem to be implying that Ganondorf had somehow obtained the Triforce of Power before the execution scene, since he would have to for all of your statements to make sense. His is impossible since we know Ganonorf was brought to justice before conquering Hyrule. You state in passing at the end that “the door of time was open at the en of OOT”, although that has nothing to do with TP. Unless you place TP after OOT Future…which is another argument in and of itself.

Edited by NM87, 19 May 2008 - 12:55 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Hero of Legend, on May 19 2008, 01:08 AM, said:

No, it is obvious Link and Zelda had held their power since birth. At least Link had always had the Triforce mark on his hand, and that fits with Ganondorf's final words. The same words also imply it is not the Triforce proper that is seen in TP, but that's up to personal interpretation.

Link always had the crest? Really?I don't really remember that. proof maybe?(not that I doubt you, really, I just want to see this for myself)

I feel similar to Showsni, the final words sound like the Prophecy of the Great Cataclysm, but Ganondorf says it works both ways. I still don't see how Ganondorf's final words imply that it's not the Triforce, though.

I ask this: Isn't it just simpler that they have the Triforce, but don't know that it's the Triforce, rather than having some other ambiguous power of the Gods symbolized by a Triforce crest where one triangle glows brighter than the other two? What is that power, then? Why does it seem to be the Triforce if it isn't?

FDL said

As for the "Ganondorf couldn't break the chains" point, you guys are working under the misconception that the Triforce automatically grants the user amazing power. That doesn't seem to be the case. As we've seen in TWW, no power is automatically gained by being "chosen to bear the Triforce". If you compare Link before you open the passage into Hyrule and after there's no difference. In fact, Link is still beaten by Ganondorf. Furthermore, the end of OoT heavily hints that Ganondorf did not have full control over the Triforce of Power until he was beaten by Link and buried under the rubble. Zelda's words and the fact that he didn't turn into Ganon until he was basically dead tell us that this is extremely likely. Also, compare the ending of OoT to the execution scene in TP. There are many similarities. Both have Ganondorf being near death and then suddenly gaining super strength and pupil-less eyes. Even the music playing references the ending of OoT. I have to say, I suspect Ganondorf would have turned into his pig form right at the Arbiter's Grounds if not for the Sages using the Mirror.

This seems to coincide with what I'm saying. Just 'cause Ganny had this awesome power (Triforce or not) it doesn't mean that he knew how to use its full potential before the sages executed him. (or maybe he couldn't use it period)

[MikePetersSucks]

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He was searching for it. If you'd notice, everything that people consider "plotholes" in TP are explained if you realize that the actual Triforce is in it. Why did the Bulblin's raid Ordon Village? Because they knew the ToC was close by but weren't sure who had it. Why did the Shadow Beast drag Link all the way to Hyrule Castle after seeing the mark? Because Zant was trying to unify the Triforce for his master. What is the "power" that Midna wants to restore to Zelda? The ToW, which Zelda's soul has been imbued with. Why did Ganondorf sit on his ass after he was revived rather than do anything that would "unify light and shadow"? Because he needed the "True Force" to get his wish. There are more examples but I think that's enough.

As for the "Ganondorf couldn't break the chains" point, you guys are working under the misconception that the Triforce automatically grants the user amazing power. That doesn't seem to be the case. As we've seen in TWW, no power is automatically gained by being "chosen to bear the Triforce". If you compare Link before you open the passage into Hyrule and after there's no difference. In fact, Link is still beaten by Ganondorf. Furthermore, the end of OoT heavily hints that Ganondorf did not have full control over the Triforce of Power until he was beaten by Link and buried under the rubble. Zelda's words and the fact that he didn't turn into Ganon until he was basically dead tell us that this is extremely likely. Also, compare the ending of OoT to the execution scene in TP. There are many similarities. Both have Ganondorf being near death and then suddenly gaining super strength and pupil-less eyes. Even the music playing references the ending of OoT. I have to say, I suspect Ganondorf would have turned into his pig form right at the Arbiter's Grounds if not for the Sages using the Mirror.

Now I'm not saying some of youse guys, particularly DS, haven't thought this out [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. You all clearly have. However, I still don't believe what you guys are saying is true. The stuff I've mentioned above, along with the DoT being open and Link having the ToC in the ending of OoT, make me pretty sure of what I'm saying.

Beat me to it. Otherwise I agree.

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MPS - You'll have to clarify your crest rules for me

Well, what I mean is, let's look at the precedent. There are two types of Triforce marks. There's the "Chosen For a Prophecy" type, as shown in OOX and AOL, where all the Triforce parts in the crest are the same color, and it never glows except for the door opening thing in AOL. In other words, this crest functions as part of a spell, instead of representing a bearing of the Triforce.

Then there's the "Triforce Bearer" mark. It remains on the hand the whole time just like the other kind, but one triangle is a brighter gold, depending on what Triforce piece you own, and when you draw on it's power, or if you're brought together with the the other two bearers, the crest glows, with the certain triangle glowing brightest.

Now let's look at the marks of TP. They remain the whole time, check. They have a single triangle that glows brightest, check. They glow when drawing upon special powers, check. Unfortunately, there is never a time when all three of the Triforce Bearers are brought together in a significant way during a cutscene. They might resonate, they might not, but there's no way to check. Just like we can't tell if the Triforce marks are still blinking during the final TWW fight. As for Midna, while Zelda's soul entered her body, Zelda was still the Triforce Bearer. The Triforce pieces seem to imbue the soul of the chosen one, which Midna is not. Thus, Midna doesn't get a crest, and thus Ganondorf's and Link's crests do not resonate.

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You twisted every one of those examples. The Bulbins were attacking the village because it was one of the last places on the map still peaceful. It is never stated why the Shadow Beasts capture Link, and one can draw their own conclusions.

Fair enough.

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The power Midna wants to restore is the power of the goddesses, which can reside in someone regardless of owning a Triforce.

CIRCULAR LOGIC.

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Ganondorf remaining inactive after his revival is due to the fact he had already become the king of light and dark, at least in his mind. He completed his goal. If he was looking for the other Triforces, he would have searched, as Raian has stated.

Or he could just be using Zant and all his other minions to do it while he sits all cushy.

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Citing WW Link, or any Link as an example of the Triforce not granting immediate power is benign. Link is the character the player controls, if he gains omni-potency, then he wouldn’t need to lift a finger any longer in the dungeons and against bosses ho are meek in the face of the gods.

The thing is that the Triforce pieces don't grant omnipotency. NONE of them. Besides, I have a theory that the Triforce of Courage promotes drive, the Triforce of Wisdom boosts clairvoyant, extrasensory abilities and certain benign magics, and the Triforce of Power boosts the magic and powers you already have.

And besides, we don't know how much control anyone has over the use of a Triforce piece. They might work subconsciously or only in accordance with the will of the gods or something.

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Ganondorf did not die after the first half of the battle in OOT, nor was he near death. He did not know how to control the power of the gods and therefore turned into a monster, and turned back when he was subdued. His is why the anon we see in OOT and TP is merely a Ganon hat this specific Ganondorf turns into when angry or whatever.

[citation needed]

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You also seem to be implying that Ganondorf had somehow obtained the Triforce of Power before the execution scene, since he would have to for all of your statements to make sense. His is impossible since we know Ganonorf was brought to justice before conquering Hyrule. You state in passing at the end that “the door of time was open at the en of OOT”, although that has nothing to do with TP. Unless you place TP after OOT Future…which is another argument in and of itself.

Perhaps TP is the result of Ganondorf managing to enter the Sacred Realm in the child timeline, while Link was doing his skipping around thing. It's perfectly plausible, and not as impossible as you make it seem.

[CID Farwin]

MikePetersSucks, on May 19 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

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He was searching for it. If you'd notice, everything that people consider "plotholes" in TP are explained if you realize that the actual Triforce is in it. Why did the Bulblin's raid Ordon Village? Because they knew the ToC was close by but weren't sure who had it. Why did the Shadow Beast drag Link all the way to Hyrule Castle after seeing the mark? Because Zant was trying to unify the Triforce for his master. What is the "power" that Midna wants to restore to Zelda? The ToW, which Zelda's soul has been imbued with. Why did Ganondorf sit on his ass after he was revived rather than do anything that would "unify light and shadow"? Because he needed the "True Force" to get his wish. There are more examples but I think that's enough.

As for the "Ganondorf couldn't break the chains" point, you guys are working under the misconception that the Triforce automatically grants the user amazing power. That doesn't seem to be the case. As we've seen in TWW, no power is automatically gained by being "chosen to bear the Triforce". If you compare Link before you open the passage into Hyrule and after there's no difference. In fact, Link is still beaten by Ganondorf. Furthermore, the end of OoT heavily hints that Ganondorf did not have full control over the Triforce of Power until he was beaten by Link and buried under the rubble. Zelda's words and the fact that he didn't turn into Ganon until he was basically dead tell us that this is extremely likely. Also, compare the ending of OoT to the execution scene in TP. There are many similarities. Both have Ganondorf being near death and then suddenly gaining super strength and pupil-less eyes. Even the music playing references the ending of OoT. I have to say, I suspect Ganondorf would have turned into his pig form right at the Arbiter's Grounds if not for the Sages using the Mirror.

Now I'm not saying some of youse guys, particularly DS, haven't thought this out [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. You all clearly have. However, I still don't believe what you guys are saying is true. The stuff I've mentioned above, along with the DoT being open and Link having the ToC in the ending of OoT, make me pretty sure of what I'm saying.

Beat me to it. Otherwise I agree.

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MPS - You'll have to clarify your crest rules for me

Well, what I mean is, let's look at the precedent. There are two types of Triforce marks. There's the "Chosen For a Prophecy" type, as shown in OOX and AOL, where all the Triforce parts in the crest are the same color, and it never glows except for the door opening thing in AOL. In other words, this crest functions as part of a spell, instead of representing a bearing of the Triforce.

Then there's the "Triforce Bearer" mark. It remains on the hand the whole time just like the other kind, but one triangle is a brighter gold, depending on what Triforce piece you own, and when you draw on it's power, or if you're brought together with the the other two bearers, the crest glows, with the certain triangle glowing brightest.

Now let's look at the marks of TP. They remain the whole time, check. They have a single triangle that glows brightest, check. They glow when drawing upon special powers, check. Unfortunately, there is never a time when all three of the Triforce Bearers are brought together in a significant way during a cutscene. They might resonate, they might not, but there's no way to check. Just like we can't tell if the Triforce marks are still blinking during the final TWW fight. As for Midna, while Zelda's soul entered her body, Zelda was still the Triforce Bearer. The Triforce pieces seem to imbue the soul of the chosen one, which Midna is not. Thus, Midna doesn't get a crest, and thus Ganondorf's and Link's crests do not resonate.

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You twisted every one of those examples. The Bulbins were attacking the village because it was one of the last places on the map still peaceful. It is never stated why the Shadow Beasts capture Link, and one can draw their own conclusions.

Fair enough.

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The power Midna wants to restore is the power of the goddesses, which can reside in someone regardless of owning a Triforce.

CIRCULAR LOGIC.

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Ganondorf remaining inactive after his revival is due to the fact he had already become the king of light and dark, at least in his mind. He completed his goal. If he was looking for the other Triforces, he would have searched, as Raian has stated.

Or he could just be using Zant and all his other minions to do it while he sits all cushy.

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Citing WW Link, or any Link as an example of the Triforce not granting immediate power is benign. Link is the character the player controls, if he gains omni-potency, then he wouldn’t need to lift a finger any longer in the dungeons and against bosses ho are meek in the face of the gods.

The thing is that the Triforce pieces don't grant omnipotency. NONE of them. Besides, I have a theory that the Triforce of Courage promotes drive, the Triforce of Wisdom boosts clairvoyant, extrasensory abilities and certain benign magics, and the Triforce of Power boosts the magic and powers you already have.

And besides, we don't know how much control anyone has over the use of a Triforce piece. They might work subconsciously or only in accordance with the will of the gods or something.

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Ganondorf did not die after the first half of the battle in OOT, nor was he near death. He did not know how to control the power of the gods and therefore turned into a monster, and turned back when he was subdued. His is why the Ganon we see in OOT and TP is merely a Ganon hat this specific Ganondorf turns into when angry or whatever.

[citation needed]

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You also seem to be implying that Ganondorf had somehow obtained the Triforce of Power before the execution scene, since he would have to for all of your statements to make sense. His is impossible since we know Ganonorf was brought to justice before conquering Hyrule. You state in passing at the end that “the door of time was open at the en of OOT”, although that has nothing to do with TP. Unless you place TP after OOT Future…which is another argument in and of itself.

Perhaps TP is the result of Ganondorf managing to enter the Sacred Realm in the child timeline, while Link was doing his skipping around thing. It's perfectly plausible, and not as impossible as you make it seem.

Whole thing quoted for truth. And fixed a couple things.

[Duke Serkol]

NM87, on May 19 2008, 07:54 PM, said:

The Bulbins were attacking the village because it was one of the last places on the map still peaceful.

That's not completely accurate. As Marty says:

Marty, on May 19 2008, 07:17 PM, said:

The attack on Ordon village, I associated that with an attack on the final light spirit. The children were present and therefore taken prisoner.

Keep in mind they blow the horn to make that tunnel to the Twilight Realm appear (this so that the Shadow Assassins can steal the Light Spirit's power).

NM87, on May 19 2008, 07:54 PM, said:

It is never stated why the Shadow Beasts capture Link, and one can draw their own conclusions.

Yep, but to the casual player (and I always presume Nintendo want the bigger points in the plot of their games understandable to the casual gamer) it would appear a reasonable conclusion to assume it was because of Link's unusual reaction to Twilight.

NM87, on May 19 2008, 07:54 PM, said:

The power Midna wants to restore is the power of the goddesses, which can reside in someone regardless of owning a Triforce. Ganondorf remaining inactive after his revival is due to the fact he had already become the king of light and dark, at least in his mind. He completed his goal. If he was looking for the other Triforces, he would have searched, as Raian has stated.

These statements are made of God and Win.

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You state in passing at the end that “the door of time was open at the en of OOT”, although that has nothing to do with TP. Unless you place TP after OOT Future…which is another argument in and of itself.

If I'm not mistaken, he means when Link is returned to the past at the end of OoT. He says since the Door of Time is open (to let him out) that Ganondorf must already have entered the Sacred Realm and split the Triforce (suggesting that Link has returned to the past in the same fashion as he does normally by placing back the Master Sword, yet changing the future and causing a split). In this fashion, he explains why Link still has a Triforce mark on his hand in the ending shot.
I probably don't need to, but I wish to point out that I do not believe any of that to be correct.

CID Farwin, on May 19 2008, 08:30 PM, said:

I ask this: Isn't it just simpler that they have the Triforce, but don't know that it's the Triforce, rather than having some other ambiguous power of the Gods symbolized by a Triforce crest where one triangle glows brighter than the other two?

Yeah, isn't it... *eyes the GameBoy Advance game featuring a mystical force that can make one like a god and is represented by a golden triangle*

CID Farwin, on May 19 2008, 08:30 PM, said:

What is that power, then? Why does it seem to be the Triforce if it isn't?

Like I keep saying, it is possible that the three have a connection to the very Triforce without physically possessing it. Alternatively, the Goddesses could each (hence the different triangles on their hands) have conferred their power to one of the three. Essentially that would make them living, breathing Triforces. And don't come and tell me that's not possible. It's the Gods. They can inbue their power in anything they please.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 19 May 2008 - 02:11 PM.

[NM87]

MikePetersSucks, on May 19 2008, 02:31 PM, said:

Now let's look at the marks of TP. They remain the whole time, check. They have a single triangle that glows brightest, check. They glow when drawing upon special powers, check. Unfortunately, there is never a time when all three of the Triforce Bearers are brought together in a significant way during a cutscene. They might resonate, they might not, but there's no way to check. Just like we can't tell if the Triforce marks are still blinking during the final TWW fight. As for Midna, while Zelda's soul entered her body, Zelda was still the Triforce Bearer. The Triforce pieces seem to imbue the soul of the chosen one, which Midna is not. Thus, Midna doesn't get a crest, and thus Ganondorf's and Link's crests do not resonate.

You stated that Triforce marks appear on hands of the chosen. There are three chosen ones in TP (Ganondorf, Link and Zelda). To differentiate them, the crest doesn't appear as an outline for each of them, it appears as individual pieces representing what they are chosen for. Ganondorf for power, Link for courage and Zelda for wisdom.

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The thing is that the Triforce pieces don't grant omnipotency. NONE of them.

If the Triforces contain the power of the gods, wouldn't they be omnipotent?

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Perhaps TP is the result of Ganondorf managing to enter the Sacred Realm in the child timeline, while Link was doing his skipping around thing. It's perfectly plausible, and not as impossible as you make it seem.

TP Ganondorf never entered the SR or accomplished anything, he was brought to justice before doing so because of his blindness.

Addressing the end of OOT Future, that is my theory on Ganon. If you disagree fine, but the fact remains Ganondorf was not dead or near death. Nothing really supports that.

[NM87]

Duke Serkol, on May 19 2008, 03:03 PM, said:

Keep in mind the blow the horn to make that tunnel to the Twilight Realm appear (this so that the Shadow Assassins can steal the Light Spirit's power).

Ah yes, that would be the complete details of the plot, but I didn't go into specifics like I should have.

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Yep, but to the casual player (and I always presume Nintendo want the bigger points in the plot of their games understandable to the casual gamer) it would appear a reasonable conclusion to assume it was because of Link's unusual reaction to Twilight.

My sentiments exactly, but I didn't want to post anything that would trigger Mike's response "wrong, never says that".

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If I'm not mistaken, he means when Link is returned to the past at the end of OoT. He says since the Door of Time is open (to let him out) that Ganondorf must already have entered the Sacred Realm and split the Triforce (suggesting that Link has returned to the past in the same fashion as he does normally by placing back the Master Sword, yet changing the future and causing a split). In this fashion, he explains why Link still has a Triforce mark on his hand in the ending shot.
I probably don't need to, but I wish to point out that I do not believe any of that to be correct.

That clears things up, but wouldn't Ganondorf have to slip in the door at the exact moment Link was sent back, thus rendering the events of OOT useless in the first place? Link possessing the Triforce mark at the end of the game...could signal the fact the prank already took place and the trio was chosen? Then the crests are passed down to the next Link and Zelda while Ganondorf keeps his. CAUTION: This is a simple theory I just came up with in about three seconds.

[Duke Serkol]

NM87, on May 19 2008, 09:13 PM, said:

That clears things up, but wouldn't Ganondorf have to slip in the door at the exact moment Link was sent back, thus rendering the events of OOT useless in the first place?

Well, the way I understand it, when Link places back the Master Sword in OoT (in-game, not the end) he returns to after Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm (after all, we hear him talk to Link before he is put to sleep).
FDL and the otehrs who subscribe to his interpretation believe this is no different in the ending, whereas I think there are more than enough indications to believe Link went back to before first meeting Zelda.

NM87, on May 19 2008, 09:13 PM, said:

Link possessing the Triforce mark at the end of the game...could signal the fact the prank already took place and the trio was chosen? Then the crests are passed down to the next Link and Zelda while Ganondorf keeps his. CAUTION: This is a simple theory I just came up with in about three seconds.

That's definitely very different from my interpretation (I can detail that if you'd like), but it is certainly an interesting idea well worth pondering. Of course this conflict with the whole "Ganondorf couldn't have the power of the gods before being chained or he wouldn't be chained in the first place" thing.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 19 May 2008 - 02:30 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Duke Serkol, on May 19 2008, 01:03 PM, said:

Yeah, isn't it... *eyes the GameBoy Advance game featuring a mystical force that can make one like a god and is represented by a golden triangle*

Are you telling me it's that power, then? I might allow that...

Quote

Like I keep saying, it is possible that the three have a connection to the very Triforce without physically possessing it. Alternatively, the Goddesses could each (hence the different triangles on their hands) have conferred their power to one of the three. Essentially that would make them living, breathing Triforces. And don't come and tell me that's not possible. It's the Gods. They can inbue their power in anything they please.

Before I answer: who exactly are the 'living, breathing, Triforces?' your scentence allows for confusion.

[FDL]

NM87, on May 19 2008, 01:54 PM, said:

You twisted every one of those examples. The Bulbins were attacking the village because it was one of the last places on the map still peaceful.

They wouldn't have kidnapped the kids if that were the only reason. There has to be some reason they did that, and looking for the Triforce is a reason that fits with the other games.

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It is never stated why the Shadow Beasts capture Link, and one can draw their own conclusions.

Such as? Why lug him all the way there? The "it was just curious" argument holds no weight.

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The power Midna wants to restore is the power of the goddesses, which can reside in someone regardless of owning a Triforce.

Okay, I'm trying to be patient with you guys but that's just stupid. You're making up a completely new concept simply because of some vague lines that could be interpreted in a variety of ways. So far everything I've said has some basis in the games. Yours is merely an interpretation that has no backing, at all. The fact that you accuse me of "twisting" my examples and then say this crap is ridiculous.

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Ganondorf remaining inactive after his revival is due to the fact he had already become the king of light and dark, at least in his mind. He completed his goal. If he was looking for the other Triforces, he would have searched, as Raian has stated.

His behavior is no different in TWW or OoT, so that's a moot point. Furthermore, Zant AND Ganondorf both claim that they're goal is to do that, and that it hasn't happened. So you're falt-out wrong in this case.

Quote

Citing WW Link, or any Link as an example of the Triforce not granting immediate power is benign. Link is the character the player controls, if he gains omni-potency, then he wouldn’t need to lift a finger any longer in the dungeons and against bosses ho are meek in the face of the gods.

Then how about the fact that neither Ganondorf nor Zelda automatically gain omnipotence either. Really, there's little difference in any of them. You're grasping at straws here.

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Ganondorf did not die after the first half of the battle in OOT, nor was he near death. He did not know how to control the power of the gods and therefore turned into a monster, and turned back when he was subdued. His is why the anon we see in OOT and TP is merely a Ganon hat this specific Ganondorf turns into when angry or whatever.

Ganondorf said

The Great Evil King Ganondorf...beaten by this kid?! (spits blood) Link....!

Zelda said

Ganondorf...pitiful man...
Without a strong, righteous mind, he could not control the power of the gods...and...Link, listen to me! This tower will collapse soon! With his last breath, Ganondorf is trying to crush us in the ruins of the tower! We need to hurry and escape! Please follow me!

Emphasis all mine.

Quote

You also seem to be implying that Ganondorf had somehow obtained the Triforce of Power before the execution scene, since he would have to for all of your statements to make sense. His is impossible since we know Ganonorf was brought to justice before conquering Hyrule. You state in passing at the end that “the door of time was open at the en of OOT”, although that has nothing to do with TP.

Yes, I'm saying that he could have gotten it when he did in OoT and that as long as Link stopped him before he actually conquered Hyrule the future could still change. I'll use an example of what I mean. Let's say you actually know how to travel through time. Then someone, lets call him G, murders a person named D. With your amazing time travelling powers you go back in time, but unfortunately you were only able to go back to a point after G bought the gun he was going to use. However, G had to learn how to use it first, giving you ample time to stop him. That's what I think happened here. Nothing I'm aware of contradicts this interpretation.

Duke Serkol, on May 19 2008, 03:03 PM, said:

These statements are made of God and Win.

I didn't know conjecture with little basis in fact was made of God and Win, learn something new every day.

Quote

Like I keep saying, it is possible that the three have a connection to the very Triforce without physically possessing it. Alternatively, the Goddesses could each (hence the different triangles on their hands) have conferred their power to one of the three. Essentially that would make them living, breathing Triforces. And don't come and tell me that's not possible. It's the Gods. They can inbue their power in anything they please.

Problem is, in situations like this you need something to base this belief on. There is very little in the game that points to what you're saying being true. I could just use "the gods did it" to prove everything in a debate but I'd be considered a fool for doing so.

NM87, on May 19 2008, 03:03 PM, said:

You stated that Triforce marks appear on hands of the chosen. There are three chosen ones in TP (Ganondorf, Link and Zelda). To differentiate them, the crest doesn't appear as an outline for each of them, it appears as individual pieces representing what they are chosen for. Ganondorf for power, Link for courage and Zelda for wisdom.

I'll say it again, anyone who possesses the Triforce in their own bodies rather than as an item is a chosen one. TWW says as much.

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If the Triforces contain the power of the gods, wouldn't they be omnipotent?

If you wrote a fictional story perhaps that would be true but it isn't in this case at all.

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TP Ganondorf never entered the SR or accomplished anything, he was brought to justice before doing so because of his blindness.

That's not necessarily correct. In fact, if you go by what Jumbie says, the only thing that we can be positive of is that Ganondorf didn't conquer Hyrule. He could still have found his way into the Sacred Realm without actually ruling over it or Hyrule.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 19 May 2008 - 03:28 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Duke Serkol said

Keep in mind they blow the horn to make that tunnel to the Twilight Realm appear (this so that the Shadow Assassins can steal the Light Spirit's power).

Hmm... I should point out that the Bullblins are looking for a person with the crest, though. At least, they check the back of the hands of the kids, though they conveniently forget Link (not that it matters since he's captured right afterwards anyway). Unfortunately, that is one scene that's never elaborated upon in the latter game. I don't think it tells us anything much about Ganondorf's motives either, since this search works with both Triforce pieces and chosen ones.

I do wonder in what ways Ganondorf's actions and motives in TP so obviously differ from those in OoT though. It's not like he did anything but wait in his castle in that game either. In fact, it was his stated intent to lure Zelda and Link to him - which is precisely what happens in TP. Ganondorf never actively tried to take their pieces either, as I recall, so the lack of such an attempt in TP is not much of an argument.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 19 May 2008 - 03:36 PM.

[NM87]

Duke Serkol, on May 19 2008, 03:24 PM, said:

Well, the way I understand it, when Link places back the Master Sword in OoT (in-game, not the end) he returns to after Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm (after all, we hear him talk to Link before he is put to sleep).
FDL and the otehrs who subscribe to his interpretation believe this is no different in the ending, whereas I think there are more than enough indications to believe Link went back to before first meeting Zelda.

I agree with you.

Quote

That's definitely very different from my interpretation (I can detail that if you'd like), but it is certainly an interesting idea well worth pondering. Of course this conflict with the whole "Ganondorf couldn't have the power of the gods before being chained or he wouldn't be chained in the first place" thing.

Yes, he has the power of the gods in my three-second theory, it just hasn't awakened yet. Of course, without such an explanation that would be a problem, and I understand the point.

[Duke Serkol]

CID Farwin, on May 19 2008, 09:40 PM, said:

Duke Serkol, on May 19 2008, 01:03 PM, said:

Yeah, isn't it... *eyes the GameBoy Advance game featuring a mystical force that can make one like a god and is represented by a golden triangle*

Are you telling me it's that power, then? I might allow that...

Not necessarily. What I was saying, is that it wouldn't be the first time we had a new Triforce-like divine power.

CID Farwin, on May 19 2008, 09:40 PM, said:

who exactly are the 'living, breathing, Triforces?' your scentence allows for confusion.

Sorry about that, I meant Ganondorf, Link and Zelda.

Fierce Deity Link, on May 19 2008, 10:25 PM, said:

I could just use "the gods did it" to prove everything in a debate but I'd be considered a fool for doing so.

That isn't necessary.

Hero of Legend, on May 19 2008, 10:29 PM, said:

Hmm... I should point out that the Bullblins are looking for a person with the crest, though. At least, they check the back of the hands of the kids

I've heard that before, but no matter how many times I watch the cutscene, it does not seem like that to me. I mean, the bullblin picks Ilia up by the hand yes (not so Colin), but never looks at the back of it.

Hero of Legend, on May 19 2008, 10:29 PM, said:

I do wonder in what ways Ganondorf's actions and motives in TP so obviously differ from those in OoT though.

Dialogue. In both OoT and TWW Ganondorf is all about getting Link and Zelda's power (the Triforce parts, in those games). In this one he scarcely acknowledges Link's existance and rather boasts to Midna about how cool being chosen by the Gods is.

[Raien]

That's it. There's too much ambiguity in TP to make any effective statements for or against any given point; I'm washing my hands with this topic. I'll comment when Jumbie releases a new translation.

PS: Hero of Legend makes a good point. According to the removed section of Ganondorf's dying speech, Ganondorf knew that there would be other people chosen by the gods; the crest in that context could simply determine those chosen or those possessing a Triforce piece. But at least we know why the village was raided; I wouldn't have noticed that otherwise.

Edited by Raian, 19 May 2008 - 05:43 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Duke Serkol said

Dialogue. In both OoT and TWW Ganondorf is all about getting Link and Zelda's power (the Triforce parts, in those games). In this one he scarcely acknowledges Link's existance and rather boasts to Midna about how cool being chosen by the Gods is.

Actions speak louder than words.

But yes, Ganondorf does seem rather apathetic towards Link in TP, doesn't he? (and that's in spite of knowing that he was a chosen one - unless he only realized that after Link beat him? But then, I always assumed Ganondorf possessed Zelda mainly to get her power - which flies in the face of the idea that Midna had already recieved it) Still, that's more related to the fact that the Triforce (in its typical form) is taboo in TP than it is proof of any theory. I’m not saying you claimed it was, but you get my point.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 19 May 2008 - 06:08 PM.

[NM87]

Fierce Deity Link, on May 19 2008, 04:25 PM, said:

Ganondorf said

The Great Evil King Ganondorf...beaten by this kid?! (spits blood) Link....!

Zelda said

Ganondorf...pitiful man...
Without a strong, righteous mind, he could not control the power of the gods...and...Link, listen to me! This tower will collapse soon! With his last breath, Ganondorf is trying to crush us in the ruins of the tower! We need to hurry and escape! Please follow me!

Emphasis all mine.

Ganondorf saying he was "beaten" doesn't imply he is dead. Zelda also had said those things when she had thought he was dead, but we find out soon after she was wrong to think so. Those quotes don't prove anything.

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His behavior is no different in TWW or OoT, so that's a moot point. Furthermore, Zant AND Ganondorf both claim that they're goal is to do that, and that it hasn't happened. So you're falt-out wrong in this case.

Quote

Yes, I'm saying that he could have gotten it when he did in OoT and that as long as Link stopped him before he actually conquered Hyrule the future could still change. I'll use an example of what I mean. Let's say you actually know how to travel through time. Then someone, lets call him G, murders a person named D. With your amazing time travelling powers you go back in time, but unfortunately you were only able to go back to a point after G bought the gun he was going to use. However, G had to learn how to use it first, giving you ample time to stop him. That's what I think happened here. Nothing I'm aware of contradicts this interpretation.

Quote

That's not necessarily correct. In fact, if you go by what Jumbie says, the only thing that we can be positive of is that Ganondorf didn't conquer Hyrule. He could still have found his way into the Sacred Realm without actually ruling over it or Hyrule.

Ganondorf always ends up capturing Zelda and her Triforce and then tells Link he wants his piece. In OOT and WW he always goes into detail about the Triforce. In TP he skates along the lines of the power he had received and seems to have no knowledge of the Master Sword, even though it is the weapon that can defeat the Triforce's magic. If he did obtain a piece of the Triforce prior to TP the Master Sword is the only weapon that can stop him. He also wouldn’t have let himself be inflicted with such a mortal wound at his execution…he would have escaped.

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I'll say it again, anyone who possesses the Triforce in their own bodies rather than as an item is a chosen one. TWW says as much.

One has to have a Triforce to be chosen? LOZ Link doesn’t’ have a Triforce and he is a chosen one. WW Link was never really chosen, he had to prove himself, which is why the gods were at first reluctant. He also didn’t have any Triforce piece until he had collected the fragments.

Quote

They wouldn't have kidnapped the kids if that were the only reason. There has to be some reason they did that, and looking for the Triforce is a reason that fits with the other games. Such as? Why lug him all the way there? The "it was just curious" argument holds no weight. Okay, I'm trying to be patient with you guys but that's just stupid. You're making up a completely new concept simply because of some vague lines that could be interpreted in a variety of ways. So far everything I've said has some basis in the games. Yours is merely an interpretation that has no backing, at all. The fact that you accuse me of "twisting" my examples and then say this crap is ridiculous.

The same way you have this conspiracy theory that everything that happened in the game, is because of what you say that it happened for. Even though there is no narrative to tell us what has really taken place. Why don't you calm the hell down, and stop going around telling everyone they are wrong because you think so. Never were we stating facts, like you claim to be doing. We are discussing the possibilities and theorizing., not to sling insults at each other, speak in rotten tones, and “grow impatient” in a debate about a video game. Duke, jhurvid, we might as well pack our bags and go home since Fierce Deity Link and co. say that we are wrong.

[Hero of Legend]

NM87 said

WW Link was never really chosen, he had to prove himself, which is why the gods were at first reluctant.

Then you agree with FDL; though he argues, correctly, that if one has a Triforce piece resting within him, that is proof he is chosen by the gods, as stated by the King of Hyrule. Also, I maintain that is an error to assume TWW was not chosen since birth, for the simple reason that he is said to be chosen, and there is no reason to believe he is not - for instance, he did not, as you claim, have to prove himself any more than any other Link had to. Likewise, he could wield the Master Sword, which only the chosen Hero can do. That should be enough, but people still claim there is some difference here, even though there is no evidence of such.

Quote

Ganondorf saying he was "beaten" doesn't imply he is dead. Zelda also had said those things when she had thought he was dead, but we find out soon after she was wrong to think so. Those quotes don't prove anything.

Even so, that's the obvious intent of those statements. The player is led to believe Ganondorf is dead, so that his return (and transformation) is made all the more dramatic. As such, it is folly to deny the meaning of these words, given their context.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 19 May 2008 - 06:37 PM.

[NM87]

Hero of Legend, on May 19 2008, 07:26 PM, said:

Then you agree with FDL; though he argues, correctly, that if one has a Triforce piece resting within him, that is proof he is chosen by the gods, as stated by the King of Hyrule. Also, I maintain that is an error to assume TWW was not chosen since birth, for the simple reason that he is said to be chosen, and there is no reason to believe he is not - for instance, he did not, as you claim, have to prove himself any more than any other Link had to. Likewise, he could wield the Master Sword, which only the chosen Hero can do. That should be enough, but people still claim there is some difference here, even though there is no evidence of such.

Link had to prove himself in the Tower of the Gods in order to wield the Master Sword, and take his place as the chosen one.

Quote

Even so, that's the obvious intent of those statements. The player is led to believe Ganondorf is dead, so that his return (and transformation) is made all the more dramatic. As such, it is folly to deny the meaning of these words, given their context.

You are enforcing what I just stated. We are led to believe he is dead, but he is not, simple as that.

[FDL]

NM87, on May 19 2008, 06:59 PM, said:

Ganondorf saying he was "beaten" doesn't imply he is dead. Zelda also had said those things when she had thought he was dead, but we find out soon after she was wrong to think so. Those quotes don't prove anything.

Yes, they do. They say, point blank, that Ganondorf believed he had no other options. He was using the last of his strength to pull the tower down because he didn't know that the ToP would save him. That's why he pulled down the castle rather than turning into pig form. There's no other explanation as to why he'd pull a flippin' castle down on himself instead of going pig.

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Ganondorf always ends up capturing Zelda and her Triforce and then tells Link he wants his piece. In OOT and WW he always goes into detail about the Triforce. In TP he skates along the lines of the power he had received and seems to have no knowledge of the Master Sword, even though it is the weapon that can defeat the Triforce's magic. If he did obtain a piece of the Triforce prior to TP the Master Sword is the only weapon that can stop him. He also wouldn’t have let himself be inflicted with such a mortal wound at his execution…he would have escaped.

Not mentioning those things merely means the people doing the story wanted to cover other things or didn't want to be repetitive. Furthermore, in OoT he doesn't mention the Master Sword either. As for the "mortal wound" comment, I've already explained why he could've been wounded even with the Triforce. Hell, I'm not even taking into account the fact that the Sages weapons probably also have magical properties.

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One has to have a Triforce to be chosen? LOZ Link doesn’t’ have a Triforce and he is a chosen one. WW Link was never really chosen, he had to prove himself, which is why the gods were at first reluctant. He also didn’t have any Triforce piece until he had collected the fragments.

King of the Red Lions said

Oh! What is this? There, on your hand--the
Triforce piece now dwells within you!

It is the Triforce of Courage--proof
that you are indeed the true hero.

You have controlled the wind and crossed
the seas, and here, near the end of your
quest, the power of the gods has been
bestowed upon you...

Despite the fact that he collected and assembled the Triforce of Courage, it's stated that he had it "bestowed" upon him. This proves that Ganondorf can still find the Triforce and still be considered chosen by the gods. Link has done exactly that before.

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The same way you have this conspiracy theory that everything that happened in the game, is because of what you say that it happened for. Even though there is no narrative to tell us what has really taken place. Why don't you calm the hell down, and stop going around telling everyone they are wrong because you think so. Never were we stating facts, like you claim to be doing. We are discussing the possibilities and theorizing., not to sling insults at each other, speak in rotten tones, and “grow impatient” in a debate about a video game. Duke, jhurvid, we might as well pack our bags and go home since Fierce Deity Link and co. say that we are wrong.

Stop being a hypocrite and I won't act like this. You accuse me of "twisting" things and then you say that crap about the "power of the goddesses" with such certainty.

[NM87]

Fierce Deity Link, on May 19 2008, 07:21 PM, said:

Yes, they do. They say, point blank, that Ganondorf believed he had no other options. He was using the last of his strength to pull the tower down because he didn't know that the ToP would save him. That's why he pulled down the castle rather than turning into pig form. There's no other explanation as to why he'd pull a flippin' castle down on himself instead of going pig.

There you go doing exactly what you accuse me of doing - assuming/interpreting the wrong way. He was in a rage and didn't expect Link and Zelda to escape the castle in time - but wait, you will probably tell me there isn't any proof of him thinking that, although you get to say he didn’t think the Triforce of Power would save him.

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Not mentioning those things merely means the people doing the story wanted to cover other things or didn't want to be repetitive. Furthermore, in OoT he doesn't mention the Master Sword either. As for the "mortal wound" comment, I've already explained why he could've been wounded even with the Triforce. Hell, I'm not even taking into account the fact that the Sages weapons probably also have magical properties.

...ok. Got it. Whatever you say, as always.

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King of the Red Lions said

Oh! What is this? There, on your hand--the
Triforce piece now dwells within you!

It is the Triforce of Courage--proof
that you are indeed the true hero.

You have controlled the wind and crossed
the seas, and here, near the end of your
quest, the power of the gods has been
bestowed upon you...

Despite the fact that he collected and assembled the Triforce of Courage, it's stated that he had it "bestowed" upon him. This proves that Ganondorf can still find the Triforce and still be considered chosen by the gods. Link has done exactly that before.

This is after Link had proven himself worthy to be the chosen hero at the Tower of the Gods.

[Ize]

I don't think the triforce left the sacred realm during TP physically, but the three chosen ones 'drew their powers from' or 'were bound to' their respective triangle. This way we can say the triforce never left the realm and yet the three in TP used the triforce pieces' power.
Ganondorf just recieve what he wanted (hyrule), he clearly doesn't care about anything else.
And I don't think his deleted final speech should be canon.

[Marty]

Just another point of interest to mull over - for the Wii version Link's crest is on his right hand while Ganondorf and Zelda's crest glow on their left hand...