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Poll: The Minish Cap (21 member(s) have cast votes)

Where does TMC go in the Timeline?

  1. Before OoT (12 votes [57.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.14%

  2. After TWW (3 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  3. After TP (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Some other place, because I'm crazy (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. I don't know, what are you asking me for? (3 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  6. THE TIMELINE IS A LIE (3 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

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#121 Impossible

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 02:40 AM

I don't see how there are "few" points in favour of TMC being before OoT, if there are many for it being after TWW. Considering the very low standard of evidence for TMC to not be first (which gets lower and lower every time the existing points are debunked), there are just as many reasons for TMC to be first. Don't forget the hat (which is all but certain), the Armos origins, Trinen's comments (which most likely come from the developers, I seriously doubt he was using his own ideas to talk about something like the timeline), the light force (particularly with respect to the ending and to PH), and various other points of great or small significance. There's evidence in TMC that necessitates its placement, but that has no impact on someone with clear double standards.

I'm sure that this claim of LionHarted supposedly having supported TMC being pre-OoT is, as with many things he argues, being misrepresented through a lack of information. I'm guessing that he believed it initially, solely because of the Aonuma quote, regardless of other evidence, and he was just waiting in desperation for someone to provide enough evidence to disregard the quote. I know for a fact that he NEVER wanted any other game besides TMC to be first, because he says it himself all the time, so I seriously doubt he changed his mind from what he truly believed. That's a pretty subjective reason for a timeline placement, though.

Edited by Impossible, 08 April 2008 - 02:44 AM.


#122 LionHarted

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 03:21 AM

I'm sure that this claim of LionHarted supposedly having supported TMC being pre-OoT is, as with many things he argues, being misrepresented through a lack of information. I'm guessing that he believed it initially, solely because of the Aonuma quote, regardless of other evidence, and he was just waiting in desperation for someone to provide enough evidence to disregard the quote. I know for a fact that he NEVER wanted any other game besides TMC to be first, because he says it himself all the time, so I seriously doubt he changed his mind from what he truly believed. That's a pretty subjective reason for a timeline placement, though.


None of that is true, but I'm positive this claim is an argument ad hominem, just like every other argument I've seen you pose since, well, ever.

I also originally thought FS and FSA were first on the child timeline (OMG LEX BELIEVED IN THE SPLIT TIMELINE AT SOME POINT BEFORE THE TP INTERVIEW), that TWW was the last game in the adult timeline (before I noticed the decline of the Hylians before ALttP, really thought much about the IW, or reconsidered TMC's placement), that Oracles were between ALttP and LA (a single line from OoX didn't seem substantial to me), and that LoZ and AoL were after ALttP, but of course you wouldn't know that.

The only thing you know about my theorizing history is that I used to hold a single timeline and that I'm following the Miyamoto Order now that I'm seeing that it's entirely unnecessary for ALttP to be at all close to the beginning of the timeline and especially now that I'm seeing references to LoZ and AoL in the most recent installment in the series.

You're forgetting that my idea that FS was directly before FSA instead of first was met with just as much effing opposition, and I wound up being the voice of reason.

As for the points you raise:

- Link gets a hat in TMC, yes, but the origins of the hero's tunic have always hinged on OoT
- The Armos in TMC are not the same as those in ALttP, OoT, MM, TWW, and TP, since they were built strictly for the Wind Tribe, and these others are in the Eastern Palace, Dodongo's Cavern and various other dungeons, Stone Tower, Tower of the Gods and various temples, and the Temple of Time, respectively
- Trinen also said that Legend of the Fairy is canon
- The Light Force hasn't been seen or substantially referenced in other games, so its existence in TMC really doesn't make a difference

Edited by LionHarted, 08 April 2008 - 03:54 AM.


#123 Impossible

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 06:10 AM

Yeah, all my evidence is just ad hominem attacking, of course. Never mind that of the two of us, I'm the only one capable of understanding and directly responding to the point of someone else's argument.

- Link gets a hat in TMC, yes, but the origins of the hero's tunic have always hinged on OoT


...Don't even try to start this again. You're wrong. Could you accept that just once? You're arguing something that has already been proven irrelevant not only numerous times, but IN THIS TOPIC. Surely, you can see that.

- The Armos in TMC are not the same as those in ALttP, OoT, MM, TWW, and TP, since they were built strictly for the Wind Tribe, and these others are in the Eastern Palace, Dodongo's Cavern and various other dungeons, Stone Tower, Tower of the Gods and various temples, and the Temple of Time, respectively


However, all the evidence for TMC to be after TWW is just as bad as this.

- Trinen also said that Legend of the Fairy is canon


Good, now I'd like a source before you go spouting off stuff that people only claim to have seen. I can't even imagine a context in which this would be stated. Trinen directly communicates with the people responsible for the story, including Aonuma, and this is something he didn't just make up, because it's clear in the game itself.

- The Light Force hasn't been seen or substantially referenced in other games, so its existence in TMC really doesn't make a difference


That doesn't change the fact of what TMC says about it. Why don't you understand that the strongest evidence for a game's placement should come from that game itself?

#124 Fyxe

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 06:45 AM

Does TMC have to be before OoT or after TWW? Can't it be elsewhere? All we know for certain is that it's before Four Swords.

#125 Impossible

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 07:30 AM

However, the only evidence with any merit suggests the pre-OoT placement, as well as much of it implying that this was the actual creator intent. I mean, come on, you don't put a thing like "first adventure of Link"/"Link's first adventure" in by accident, not when the immediately following text talks about the distant future.

Meanwhile, what evidence is there for it to be elsewhere? After TP is the only thing I can think of, and it would simply be there because it works (with fewer contradictions than after TWW, in fact), not because there's anything to suggest it. There are no contradictions with it being before OoT.

Unfortunately, some people will never, ever concede a point.

Edited by Impossible, 08 April 2008 - 07:31 AM.


#126 LionHarted

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 08:46 AM

...Don't even try to start this again. You're wrong.


That's nice. Prove it.

You're arguing something that has already been proven irrelevant not only numerous times, but IN THIS TOPIC.


If I recall correctly, we never got anywhere on this subject. YOU simply declared it meaningless and the topic moved on.

However, all the evidence for TMC to be after TWW is just as bad as this.


This is not an argument. Try again, please.

That doesn't change the fact of what TMC says about it. Why don't you understand that the strongest evidence for a game's placement should come from that game itself?


What about what TMC says about it? It says it's a source of power given to humans/the hero/princess Zelda by the Minish, and that "the legend will continue as long as the Light Force echoes throughout the ages." Which legend? The legend of the Picori? The legend of Link's battles in TMC? The series legend? The Light Force is echoing throughout the ages? How come it's never mentioned in other games? And wasn't it spread across all of Hyrule by Zelda, anyway?

#127 Raien

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 09:01 AM

What about what TMC says about it? It says it's a source of power given to humans/the hero/princess Zelda by the Minish, and that "the legend will continue as long as the Light Force echoes throughout the ages." Which legend? The legend of the Picori? The legend of Link's battles in TMC? The series legend? The Light Force is echoing throughout the ages? How come it's never mentioned in other games? And wasn't it spread across all of Hyrule by Zelda, anyway?


According to the Japanese translation, it says "the story goes on". Since the ending refers to Link and Zelda specifically, and the story of The Legend of Zelda always features Link and Zelda, "the story" is clearly referring to their adventures in later games.

And also, the Light Force is said to be guiding them, which would clearly be occurring on a spritual level; not on a physical level. Hence we don't see it in other games.

Edited by jhurvid, 08 April 2008 - 10:03 AM.


#128 Impossible

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:53 AM

If I recall correctly, we never got anywhere on this subject. YOU simply declared it meaningless and the topic moved on.

This is not an argument. Try again, please.


On both of these cases, multiple people clearly showed with evidence and logic that the points in question were meaningless. I am NOT repeating myself for you, and there's no goddamn expectation for me to do so because you have the memory span of the girl from 50 First Dates (or so your constant parroting of the same repeatedly disproved arguments for years would seem to suggest). If you want to actually make point, show some evidence for the contrary that WASN'T debunked entirely already.

If my tone seems especially harsh and rude, it's because I've fucking had enough of your constant attempts to ruin timeline debating as much as possible with your total lack of principles and inability to ever understand someone else's point. You're just preventing ANY progress. I'm simply not going to put up with it anymore. You have no evidence (in this topic or the mirror one), and no fucking moral high ground as you seem to have convinced yourself.

#129 Raien

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 07:52 AM

Link's outfit in OoT did come from the Kokiri, but it can hardly be justified that all later Links wear the same tunic as the result of the Hero of Time. We have TP, in which it was given by magic, and TWW, in which it was passed down in tradition. Neither of these plot points exist in other games, and so I see no reason why a symbolic origin of Link through the hat should be contradictive of OoT in any way.

#130 Impossible

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 08:02 AM

Don't bother, jhurvid. You don't need to prove something that was already proven in this topic. Everyone knows that the Kokiri garb is irrelevant to TMC, and exists on a completely different level to TMC's cap. It's not a valid counterargument. Only one person in this topic still has any obligation to prove anything right now, but he'd rather take some kind of pathetic high ground and act cocky with no evidence. Not only that, but his attempts at already disproven counterarguments do absolutely nothing to show why his own placement deserves any favour... Of which there is no evidence.

#131 Fyxe

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 08:11 AM

Tell me, does Link wear his hat or tunic in TLoZ, Zelda II, ALttP or LA (and other games) as a result of the events of TMC? Is that is what is being suggested here? Because I don't see the correlation.

#132 Impossible

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 08:24 AM

That's exactly the point, although it's unfortunate that you don't realise the significance of what you just said. Link in those games does NOT wear anything because of a past Link, not OoT Link and not TMC Link. Any beginning of a tradition in those games is purely symbolic. The Kokiri garb argument has nothing to do with symbolism, it's all about the literal fact that the Kokiri is where Link's clothes came from. That's why I said that it's on a completely unrelated level to the cap idea.

I'd still like to know where this crap about Bill Trinen commenting on the Legend of the Fairy comes from. You can't just ignore someone entirely credible because you can conjure up a nonexistent reason for him to be wrong.

#133 Raien

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 08:25 AM

Tell me, does Link wear his hat or tunic in TLoZ, Zelda II, ALttP or LA (and other games) as a result of the events of TMC? Is that is what is being suggested here? Because I don't see the correlation.


No, that's not what is being suggested. As Impossible said, it's meant to be symbolic; meaning it has no physical impact on the clothing of later Links, but it symbolises that TMC stars the first Link.

EDIT: Looks like I'm not entirely in agreement with Impossible, but hey ho.

Edited by jhurvid, 09 April 2008 - 08:26 AM.


#134 LionHarted

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 08:26 AM

Not only that, but his attempts at already disproven counterarguments do absolutely nothing to show why his own placement deserves any favour... Of which there is no evidence.


As I recall it, you ignored most of my points earlier in this topic when I argued against your rebuttals to some pro-TWW-TMC arguments, and those you did respond to you said, and I quote: "They don't mean anything." That was the resounding tone of your counterargument.

Well, guess what, Impossible. I don't think your evidence for TMC being first means anything. Heck, even you yourself admit that all of what might be considered origins are merely symbolic references.

Now then, why do you have the high ground, and why am I being cocky?

Edited by LionHarted, 09 April 2008 - 08:29 AM.


#135 Fyxe

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 08:45 AM

No, that's not what is being suggested. As Impossible said, it's meant to be symbolic; meaning it has no physical impact on the clothing of later Links, but it symbolises that TMC stars the first Link.

EDIT: Looks like I'm not entirely in agreement with Impossible, but hey ho.

I still fail to see the correlation, and the fact that you and Impossible are sorta saying opposite things makes me more than a little sceptical about the hat being in any way significant. It's symbolic, yes, but symbolic within the confines of TMC's story.

The line in the Japanese version, to me, seems to be the only evidence to suggest that TMC comes first, but even then it's open to a lot of interpretation.

#136 Impossible

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 08:52 AM

...Wow. What the hell do you find so hard to understand about the concept of a contention? It's not something you need to respond to, it's something that becomes evident through the points following (or preceding). You can't take a contention out of context and say that means I didn't make an argument, just because I had a sentence which was not evidence (kind of like every sentence in one of your posts). "They don't mean anything" is a perfectly valid contention. Of course that was my point, because it's true, and I can prove that entirely. And I have. For example, Triumph Forks is an Easter egg with no part in the plot. And the unification of Hyrule is being taken out of context and in no way implies anything about TMC (as it was necessary for Hyrule to be unified long before that for the Temple of Time and its four keys to exist as they do) - and again, it has no part in TMC's plot. I'm the only one of us who can draw evidence from the story of TMC itself, and without that ability, a timeline placement simply can't be valid.

Similarly, I find it hilarious that you felt the need to write a response solely to the statement that you're wrong, which is entirely fucking useless, because on its own, you make it look like I haven't proven the things I have. Anyway, if you haven't provided evidence, I can only say that you're wrong. It's a statement on the same level as your own, there's little more I can add. If you say that you're right, with no evidence or argument to counter, there's nothing else to say.

No, that's not what is being suggested. As Impossible said, it's meant to be symbolic; meaning it has no physical impact on the clothing of later Links, but it symbolises that TMC stars the first Link.

EDIT: Looks like I'm not entirely in agreement with Impossible, but hey ho.


Huh? That's exactly what I said. Fyxe was absolutely right, that was what I meant by my first sentence there. There's no physical correlation between TMC Link and ALttP Link, and the importance of that is that in the same way, there's no physical correlation between OoT Link and ALttP Link. It's irrelevant to the point of the cap.

And once more, it's a joke for LH to claim that because something is symbolic, it's not evidence. Still as little a concept of creator intent and narrative technique as ever, huh?

Edited by Impossible, 09 April 2008 - 08:58 AM.


#137 LionHarted

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 12:47 PM

I understand perfectly well what contention means. In a debate such as this where nothing is certain, contention is never proven, because the standard of what constitutes evidence obviously differs between theorists. We're debating a storyline, and a videogame storyline of all things, so significance is a very muddy area.

And once more, it's a joke for LH to claim that because something is symbolic, it's not evidence. Still as little a concept of creator intent and narrative technique as ever, huh?


About as much of a joke as it is that you claim that because something's hard to see (i.e., Triumph Forks), it's not evidence.

Yay for selective use of references. I love it.

you make it look like I haven't proven the things I have.


This should be impossible to do if you've actually proven them.

Edited by LionHarted, 09 April 2008 - 12:52 PM.


#138 Raien

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 12:54 PM

About as much of a joke as it is that you claim that because something's hard to see (i.e., Triumph Forks), it's not evidence.


If clear symbology is made accessible to the players, then it is clear that the developers wanted the players to notice it and make reference to it within the game storyline or with timeline theorising in general.

If specific references are included in the game, but not made accessible to the players, then clearly the developers did not want the players to notice and reference it in storyline/timeline theorising.

It is a selective use of references, but at least there is a coherent logic to it.

#139 LionHarted

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 01:47 PM

If clear symbology is made accessible to the players, then it is clear that the developers wanted the players to notice it and make reference to it within the game storyline or with timeline theorising in general.

If specific references are included in the game, but not made accessible to the players, then clearly the developers did not want the players to notice and reference it in storyline/timeline theorising.


Except Link symbolically getting a hat in TMC is useless if there's already a literal origin for the tunic and cap which has been upheld as the origin in two other titles. If anything, the cap "origin" in TMC is a retrospective parody of the choice to give the series' protagonist such a silly hat. In particular, TMC in a rather subtle way seems to jokingly reference a question from fans that I see creep up all the time, that is, "How does Link's cap stay on?" But of course TMC does not actually answer this question in any sense significant to the rest of the series, since obviously his hats in the future are not Ezlo and therefore not actively affixing themselves to his head.

Similarly, the Minish are said to hide objects under rocks, in jars, and in the grass, but obviously there are some instances in the series where this would be simply preposterous, such as in the Twilight Realm in TP, in the Palace of Winds, and arguably on the Great Sea. It's clearly not meant to be the literal series-wide explanation for this phenomenon, but it does suffice to give a symbolic tribute to it. Of course, this doesn't mean that the Minish don't hide stuff in pots and jars. It just means that the series is being referenced, not that this is to be a reference for the series.

The reason why I don't accept either of these things as really valid is precisely because they reference hallmarks of the series as opposed to specific, concrete events, characters (i.e., the fisherman from OoT in TP, Ganon's actions in OoT and TWW in TWW and PH, respectively, etc.), items, etc. (which "Triumph Forks" fits into, from my perspective). This is why most people see character cameos as insignificant, for example.

The accessibility of the references is really not especially important. For instance, you claim that because most people do not know how to translate Hylian, that the content of Hylian texts are irrelevant. Yet it is Hylian text that specifies the nature of the hero's departure in TWW, and the line "journeyed into the flows of time" is used widely by theorists. This line was widely used by theorists to prove that MM and TWW were incompatible because the hero left Hyrule forever, journeying into an alternate

Edited by LionHarted, 09 April 2008 - 01:49 PM.


#140 Raien

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 02:17 PM

Except Link symbolically getting a hat in TMC is useless if there's already a literal origin for the tunic and cap which has been upheld as the origin in two other titles. If anything, the cap "origin" in TMC is a retrospective parody of the choice to give the series' protagonist such a silly hat. In particular, TMC in a rather subtle way seems to jokingly reference a question from fans that I see creep up all the time, that is, "How does Link's cap stay on?" But of course TMC does not actually answer this question in any sense significant to the rest of the series, since obviously his hats in the future are not Ezlo and therefore not actively affixing themselves to his head.


I don't agree that Link's hat is meant to be silly. It's Link's most defining physical characteristic, beside his long ears. Why would the developers want to add negative connotations to it? The reason why I think many people believe the symbology of the hat is important is because of a reverence towards it, as a staple of the series. And I'm sure Capcom recognise that reverence.

Similarly, the Minish are said to hide objects under rocks, in jars, and in the grass, but obviously there are some instances in the series where this would be simply preposterous, such as in the Twilight Realm in TP, in the Palace of Winds, and arguably on the Great Sea. It's clearly not meant to be the literal series-wide explanation for this phenomenon, but it does suffice to give a symbolic tribute to it. Of course, this doesn't mean that the Minish don't hide stuff in pots and jars. It just means that the series is being referenced, not that this is to be a reference for the series.

The reason why I don't accept either of these things as really valid is precisely because they reference hallmarks of the series as opposed to specific, concrete events, characters (i.e., the fisherman from OoT in TP, Ganon's actions in OoT and TWW in TWW and PH, respectively, etc.), items, etc. (which "Triumph Forks" fits into, from my perspective). This is why most people see character cameos as insignificant, for example.


It's perfectly acceptable to believe that the hat is a fun reference, which is why I don't personally include it in my small list of timeline proofs. But nonetheless, if it is supposed to have real meaning, its' overt position in the story suggests it would be important.

The accessibility of the references is really not especially important. For instance, you claim that because most people do not know how to translate Hylian, that the content of Hylian texts are irrelevant. Yet it is Hylian text that specifies the nature of the hero's departure in TWW, and the line "journeyed into the flows of time" is used widely by theorists. This line was widely used by theorists to prove that MM and TWW were incompatible because the hero left Hyrule forever, journeying into an alternate


If I remember rightly, it was revealed (before Jumbie's translation topic) that the Japanese translation of the main text refers to Link returning through time as well. The sentence "the Hero left the land of Hyrule" was an NOA invention. I can't remember exactly where I read this, but I remember discussing the implications with Arturo. Or maybe it was the Spanish translation we were discussing... Anyway, I wouldn't go with this example just yet, since we don't know exactly what was said.

And even if we theorists saw no problem with interpreting the Hylian language in the past, I am arguing now that it doesn't likely have timeline importance, due its general inaccessibility.

Edited by jhurvid, 09 April 2008 - 02:17 PM.


#141 LionHarted

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 03:22 PM

I don't agree that Link's hat is meant to be silly. It's Link's most defining physical characteristic, beside his long ears. Why would the developers want to add negative connotations to it? The reason why I think many people believe the symbology of the hat is important is because of a reverence towards it, as a staple of the series. And I'm sure Capcom recognise that reverence.


Who said silly had a negative connotation, in this case?

I am saying it is odd, and that's the cause for it being iconic.

And even if we theorists saw no problem with interpreting the Hylian language in the past, I am arguing now that it doesn't likely have timeline importance, due its general inaccessibility.


Perfectly fine. :]

I'm of the opinion that most of the references are for longtime fans anyway, and that the timeline in particular is for hardcore gamers, so I'd disagree with you.

#142 Raien

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 03:55 PM

I'm of the opinion that most of the references are for longtime fans anyway, and that the timeline in particular is for hardcore gamers, so I'd disagree with you.


Well, think of the topic like this. In the hardcore Zelda fanbase, there are a few people who take the time to rip the game's text dump, and they find quotations not included in character scripts. Does that mean these quotes were placed for hardcore fans to find and theorise about? After all, the developers must have known that there would be hardcore fans, and that the hardcore fans would be interested in the timeline. So why leave the quotes in the text dump unless they intentionally knew players would find them and theorise them?

I think we're both sensible enough to accept that text dump quotations aren't part of the canon timeline, which leaves us with the point that just because developers can appreciate the hardcore fanbase does not mean that they're going to hide important timeline references in places so inaccessible that only the hardcore fans could find them. Surely in order to get more people interested in the timeline, they'd make timeline references more available to everyone.

#143 Impossible

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 04:56 PM

I can't believe you just brought up the physical side of this. AGAIN. Are you trying to destroy your credibility?

The accessibility of the references is really not especially important. For instance, you claim that because most people do not know how to translate Hylian, that the content of Hylian texts are irrelevant. Yet it is Hylian text that specifies the nature of the hero's departure in TWW, and the line "journeyed into the flows of time" is used widely by theorists. This line was widely used by theorists to prove that MM and TWW were incompatible because the hero left Hyrule forever, journeying into an alternate


Again, you obviously haven't read my posts, because it was mostly jhurvid who raised the issue of accessibility. At one point, I'd actually forgotten that it was written in Hylian. We don't count cameos and Easter eggs as evidence in any other game, so why should we in TMC? The Hylian in TWW is part of the PLOT. The Hylian text in TMC has no CONTEXT, in TWW it does and it's extremely important to the story. It was obviously added because the way Link left Hyrule was a canonical fact, you can't possibly argue that it was meaningless. The Triumph Forks reference was not put in there to say anything about the story. I'm doubtful that Aonuma has any idea it exists. It was just to make the books look more interesting, and hide some Easter eggs in there for fans.

The reason why you respond unnecessarily to parts of posts that don't need it, or even parts that do, and give an entirely useless response, probably has something to do with your lack of comprehension of context. You respond to each sentence as something entire individual, ignoring any points surrounding it. That's why you make responses that are often unnecessary, and that's why I get pissed off at you. Or more accurately, I get pissed off because you won't even TRY to see things from the perspective of someone else, so you fail to understand how we use context, so you lead arguments in circles. And I'm putting a stop to it.

The way you interpret the games themselves, the way you respond to other arguments, the way you read and respond to other posts in general, and even the way you structure and form your own arguments... All of it centers around this one problem of context, or specifically, a lack thereof. Nobody even knows what your own contention is when you start posting half the time, because you fail to establish a context for your statements, and your arguments lack any proper structure. You often end up posting "evidence", or arguments anyway (often not backed up by evidence, but that's a separate problem), without it being clear what the hell you're trying to prove. Because you don't see the context in the posts you're responding to, or in your own posts. I learnt about structure, coherence and context in high school English, so I'm not sure how you can know nothing about this. If you can't establish a context for your points, they won't make sense to anyone except yourself.

Honestly, I see context as something crucial to the timeline itself. It's something that's VERY significant to the timeline placement of a game like TMC. It's significant to understanding TWW, and the reasons behind its ending and what they suggest. However, in order to comprehend these things, you need to learn to look at the games from a whole new perspective. I'm not saying it will be easy for you, but it's the only way you'll be able to understand where other people are coming from. What you have a habit of doing is looking at quotes in isolation - or worse, looking at just a few words of a quote in isolation. You search for any remotely possiible interpretation, but what you don't realise is that, given CONTEXT (there's that magic word), your use of the quote is actually completely irrelevant, or your interpretation is invalid, and doesn't prove anything. As well as that, your inability to recognise the presence or absence of context has made you incapable of distinguishing between things that DO have context and importance, and things that don't, which where most of our differences on TMC come from.

My use of TWW's ending is pretty much the very definition of how context is applied to the interpretation and analysis of a plot - if you've ever studied novels in depth, you may know what I'm talking about. We can NOT look at each line from the King, or from any other character, in isolation, which is exactly what you do. We have to consider it with respect to the rest of that conversation, the rest of that scene, and even the rest of the game. I'm absolutely positive that I have a stronger understanding of the underlying themes in TWW than you, because I understand the context. And in that, don't think I'm talking about some timeline superiority - I'm talking about the plot and characters itself. I do enjoy that kind of thing, too. Fortunately, this is one case where that informs the timeline itself greatly, too (I know people with a similar understanding who could hardly care less about the timeline, but still don't see why games would be after PH). The same thing comes out of TMC - don't look at the hat, the "first adventure" and the "light force echoes" quotes in isolation. Look at them in the context of the entire game. Of the developer intent. Of the narrative structure. It's all really important!

One question I'd like to ask to demonstrate what I said about TWW in my last paragraph, is this: What were Ganondorf's dying word about? Without the context of TWW, it has absolutely NO meaning, except to sound cool. Think about it for a while, though, because with all of TWW considered, it's actually an amazingly meaningful line. It sums up what the game is about. I'll give you one hint, it heavily relates to the King's dialogue in the same scene (and the one before it). That's kind of too complex to use as evidence, but I think it's an interesting point, and it only has any meaning in context. Once you learn to apply context to the games, you can start applying it to the timeline. And once you apply it to the timeline, you can apply it to your style of debating and posting, too. You may find yourself noticing many things throughout several games in the Zelda series that seem meaningless by themselves, but actually have great significance within their proper context... But up until now, you haven't seen their meaning, and have taken the former approach of disregarding it as meaningless because there's no one quote that proves what is being said.

A perfect example of that would be the cap in TMC, which is a good one to bring up, because its impact on the timeline is more direct and obvious than the Ganondorf example. Out of context, Ezlo giving Link a hat in the game's final moments means nothing. In context, it takes on a whole new significance - you've got the intro backstory, for starters, which literally serves to establish the context of TMC... That's what backstories do, and that's pretty much the basest, most blatant way to create an obvious context - probably because they wanted the meaning of those later scenes in TMC to be obvious. So take the backstory and its hero, then Link at the beginning, then Link at the end, then Ezlo's little comment about the hat, and then the ending text about Link's first adventure. Actually, jhurvid mentioned something about this, when he said (I think, I just remember elaborating on it) that combination of all the aspects of TMC's ending were what made it important, not just any one thing like the "first adventure" part. It all ties together, when you understand the symbolism in it - Link is the first hero to wear a hat like that. Even the backstory hero himself is really irrelevant to the plot and isn't really mentioned in the game at all. He only exists to illustrate this fact, by also being symbolic. He represents past heroes, and Link represents future heroes.

We have all these stupid arguments about Hylian traits and science, neither of which are even in the minds of the developers when they make a Zelda game, so I don't see why we should bother. What the developers are deliberately doing is creating context, and using it to give us hints about the story. Minor evidence, Easter eggs, cameos and the like will pretty much never have any connection to this context, which is why some evidence is much more important than others. And it's why we use the plot of a specific game to determine its intended timeline placement (hints of which will practically always be found in THAT game), not the plot of other games, which will usually say nothing about a particular other game's intent. Where's the evidence in TMC's story for it to be anywhere but first?

#144 Raien

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 05:15 PM

Impossible's last post reminded me of something I talked about with Arturo the other day. I asked about the different interpretations of Christianity, and he said that conservative views mostly stem from people outlining specific quotes in the Bible and ignoring the general message. When I look at Lex's style of debate, I get the distinct impression that Lex also takes quotes and references without applying a general meaning. From the perspective of quotes, I could easily argue that ALTTP follows TWW. But when I look at the general meaning of TWW's ending, I can see that the destruction of Hyrule was meant to convey a significant emotional impact to the public. To say that Hyrule will be brought back defeats the emotional impact of that scene.

The Great Deku Tree tells the players that he will give the people a happier way of life on the Great Sea, for the obvious reason that this gives the player comfort that the destruction of Ganondorf did not come without compensation for the people on the Great Sea. But the Deku Tree is not saying that he's actually going to bring Hyrule back. If he did, the developers would incorporate that statement into the game's ending, so that the players would be made to understand its' significance. The context in which the Deku Tree tells Link his plan is completely wrong for the significance in which Lex and others place on it.

Edited by jhurvid, 09 April 2008 - 05:42 PM.


#145 LionHarted

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:03 PM

But when I look at the general meaning of TWW's ending, I can see that the destruction of Hyrule was meant to convey a significant emotional impact to the public. To say that Hyrule will be brought back defeats the emotional impact of that scene.


Yeah. It's meant to suggest that Daphnes, who is essentially the central character of the game, has discovered that his efforts to restore his old kingdom were futile and foolish. He then tells the children to have hope, for they will be able to build a world of their own. He knows it will never be his Hyrule, but he gives them his blessing and bids them farewell.

Now explain to me how this excludes the building of another country by the Hylians/descendants of the Hylians and calling it Hyrule in any way contradicts this context?

And, yes, there is a reference to the Deku Tree's words, in the end, for Daphnes says he has "scattered the seeds of the future."

This is the LAST SPOKEN LINE IN THE GAME.

We don't count cameos and Easter eggs as evidence in any other game, so why should we in TMC?


"We."

I prefer to include as many Easter Eggs as possible, and defer to textual ones whenever possible.

The Hylian in TWW is part of the PLOT.


No it's not. It's just artsy and happens to tell us things the intro text does not.

That doesn't mean it's not a storyline indicator, though.

I get pissed off because you won't even TRY to see things from the perspective of someone else, so you fail to understand how we use context, so you lead arguments in circles. And I'm putting a stop to it.


I understand precisely how "you" use context. I accept your arguments as valid, but disagree with them.

You, on the other hand, are essentially calling me retarded for disagreeing with you.

Edited by LionHarted, 09 April 2008 - 06:07 PM.


#146 Raien

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:10 PM

Now explain to me how this excludes the building of another country by the Hylians/descendants of the Hylians and calling it Hyrule in any way contradicts this context?


If you kill a character and then say "Lol, he's back to life now.", that would ultimately defeat the impact of the character's death. Apply this to Hyrule.

And, yes, there is a reference to the Deku Tree's words, in the end, for Daphnes says he has "scattered the seeds of the future."


*facepalm* The King of Hyrule is referring to hope. On the Triforce, the King of Hyrule wished for hope for the children.

#147 LionHarted

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:14 PM

If you kill a character and then say "Lol, he's back to life now.", that would ultimately defeat the impact of the character's death. Apply this to Hyrule.


Kind of like Ganon dying in TWW/TP, but being alive in FSA.

*facepalm* The King of Hyrule is referring to hope. On the Triforce, the King of Hyrule wished for hope for the children.


This hope cannot be the Deku Tree creating a new country (literally)?

#148 Arturo

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:19 PM

No it's not. It's just artsy and happens to tell us things the intro text does not.

That doesn't mean it's not a storyline indicator, though.

There's nothing relevant to storyline that has been found in Hylian text and not in in-game text. The part of "traveling through time" is not meant to be hidden, because it's clear in Japanese (and also, in French, Spanish, German and Italian, if I recall correctly) that the Hero of Time left Hyrule via time travel.

#149 Raien

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:24 PM

Kind of like Ganon dying in TWW/TP, but being alive in FSA.


The death of Ganon in TWW is not actively connected to the rebirth of Ganon in FSA. They may be part of the same timeline, but they are two completely separate chapters; emotionally separated from one another.

This hope cannot be the Deku Tree creating a new country (literally)?


As I said, if you want to attach significance to something, you have to place it within a context that emphasises that significance. If the King of Hyrule was referring to the Deku Tree, the camera might focus on the Deku Tree, or the little trees that the Deku Tree planted, in order to signify that they can grow again with the death of Ganondorf. Furthermore, if the King wanted to place emphasis on the Deku Tree, he would have said the Koroks have scattered the seeds of the future. But he doesn't; he says "I", meaning the king, has scattered the seeds of the future. Clearly, he is referring to his own actions; to his wish.

There is no such emphasis on the Deku Tree or the Koroks; the King of Hyrule's only important role in establishing a new future is to destroy Hyrule and to give the people hope for a new land to call their own. This hope is the seeds of the future. And that is why you need to take context into account before you pass judgment on quotations.

#150 LionHarted

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 11:01 PM

The death of Ganon in TWW is not actively connected to the rebirth of Ganon in FSA. They may be part of the same timeline, but they are two completely separate chapters; emotionally separated from one another.


The Deku Tree is attempting to reconnect the lands regardless of whether or not Hyrule is actually flooded. He is doing so prior to the defeat of Ganon; there is no reason he should stop after the defeat of Ganon. This effort is in response to the Great Flood, not at all connected to the intervention of the King of Red Lions.

As I said, if you want to attach significance to something, you have to place it within a context that emphasises that significance. If the King of Hyrule was referring to the Deku Tree, the camera might focus on the Deku Tree, or the little trees that the Deku Tree planted, in order to signify that they can grow again with the death of Ganondorf. Furthermore, if the King wanted to place emphasis on the Deku Tree, he would have said the Koroks have scattered the seeds of the future. But he doesn't; he says "I", meaning the king, has scattered the seeds of the future. Clearly, he is referring to his own actions; to his wish.


Of course. But the fact of the matter is that his wish for hope for the children and the choice of diction correspond quite nicely with the Deku Tree's plans.

There is no such emphasis on the Deku Tree or the Koroks; the King of Hyrule's only important role in establishing a new future is to destroy Hyrule and to give the people hope for a new land to call their own. This hope is the seeds of the future. And that is why you need to take context into account before you pass judgment on quotations.


This is precisely what I claim about the King of Hyrule's role in events.

Edited by LionHarted, 09 April 2008 - 11:02 PM.





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