225 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

And then Zelda used it to restore Hyrule. We can see the power of life (i.e., life force) raining down on the land.

It's debatable whether Zelda is still in possession of it at that point. The game seems to imply the Light Force being part of the land now.

Edited by LionHarted, 11 April 2008 - 04:26 PM.

[Raien]

Wait, wait, who said the Light Force is spread around Hyrule? Last I checked, a third is in Zelda, and Vaati got the other two third, which apparently died with him.

Lex said it. The "power of life" (aka life force, aka Light Force) was bestowed upon Hyrule thanks to Zelda's wish.

[LionHarted]

Well, we don't know if it was "bestowed on Hyrule" or if it was simply used to right the wrongs that Vaati wrought, but the point remains that Zelda donates it to restoring Hyrule.

It's not 100% clear that Zelda is no longer in possession of that powerful Force, but that seems to be the implication.

[CID Farwin]

And to CID Farwin, do you know what I see with the destruction of Hyrule? I see the Triforce returning to the heavens (where it came into existence) and Zelda becoming the form of Tetra. In other words, two of the most recognizable symbols with Hyrule apparently disappear along with the kingdom. To me, that just symbolizes the destruction of Hyrule, along with the rise of the floodwaters.

Alright, I see that. Although, I'll press that those(The Triforce more than Tetra) are debatable. Like I said, it's how it works in my head; my idea of how things work. That's probably where we differ.

[Raien]

Well, we don't know if it was "bestowed on Hyrule" or if it was simply used to right the wrongs that Vaati wrought, but the point remains that Zelda donates it to restoring Hyrule.

It still guides Link and Zelda, according to TMC's ending.

Alright, I see that. Although, I'll press that those(The Triforce more than Tetra) are debatable. Like I said, it's how it works in my head; my idea of how things work. That's probably where we differ.

The King wished for Hyrule to be flooded and hope for the future, so maybe the Triforce was meant to guide Link and Zelda to new lands. Does that make those new lands Hyrule? The King of Hyrule suggests not.

[LionHarted]

It still guides Link and Zelda, according to TMC's ending.

Well, the trouble is, if it's the "force" that guides Link and Zelda, are we talking about the particularly strong Force that was the Light Force, or just the magical energy bestowed by the common life force possessed by all living things?

[Raien]

Well, the trouble is, if it's the "force" that guides Link and Zelda, are we talking about the particularly strong Force that was the Light Force, or just the magical energy bestowed by the common life force possessed by all living things?

Common life force doesn't play a part in TMC's story; "Force" is only used to refer to the Light Force in TMC (as Jumbie tells us).

[Arturo]

The Light Force is called simply force in Japanese. So there's no ambiguity there.

[Jumbie]

Common life force doesn't play a part in TMC's story; "Force" is only used to refer to the Light Force in TMC (as Jumbie tells us).

In Japanese TMC, the Light Force is called "Force".
In Japanese FSA, the Force Gems are called "Force".
In Japanese PH, the Life Force is called "Force".
And needless to say, in Japanese StarWars, the Force is called the very same as in Zelda.

[Raien]

I know that Jumbie, but my point is that within the context of the game, not the context of the general timeline, "force" is referring to the Light Force. Common life force does not play a role in TMC's story.

[Duke Serkol]

And in Japanese


translates to

[MikePetersSucks]

I still don't see the implication that Zelda used up the Light Force or rained it over Hyrule. She had the Wishing Cap on, after all, and Elzo specifically states that, "The cap's power, with the Princess's pure heart, has created a miracle!" The Light Force does not need to be invoked at all, much less SPREAD across the country.

[Impossible]

It's implied that the light force was invoked. It's not implied that the use of the light force also results in its loss, which seems blatantly false. Zelda possesses a large amount of "force" in both TMC and PH. The Japanese version doesn't distinguish between the two. Because Zelda's force was a gift from the Minish, that has to precede PH. And TMC is clearly in the same Hyrule as its backstory.

Edited by Impossible, 12 April 2008 - 12:02 AM.

[LionHarted]

I know that Jumbie, but my point is that within the context of the game, not the context of the general timeline, "force" is referring to the Light Force. Common life force does not play a role in TMC's story.

EAD's ideas about "Force" supersede Capcom's, I'd say.

[Raien]

EAD's ideas about "Force" supersede Capcom's, I'd say.

You're missing the entire point. If the same word is used to represent several different meanings, we must then apply the context in which the word is used.

In the context of FSA, "Force" means "Force Gems". Thus, we can deduce that when "Force" is mentioned in FSA, it is not referring to the Light Force.
In the context of TMC, "Force" means "Light Force". Thus, we can deduce that when "Force" is mentioned in TMC, it is not referring to Force Gems or common Life Force.

Edited by jhurvid, 12 April 2008 - 07:06 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

It's implied that the light force was invoked. It's not implied that the use of the light force also results in its loss, which seems blatantly false.

Agreed, wouldn't losing the Light Force kill her?

Zelda possesses a large amount of "force" in both TMC and PH. The Japanese version doesn't distinguish between the two. Because Zelda's force was a gift from the Minish, that has to precede PH. And TMC is clearly in the same Hyrule as its backstory.

This is, of course, assuming that TMC predates PH and that Tetra's force is the same as the Light Force. I would presume that Tetra, being Zelda, naturally has a high amount of life force whether she has the Light Force or not.

[Raien]

It's implied that the light force was invoked. It's not implied that the use of the light force also results in its loss, which seems blatantly false. Zelda possesses a large amount of "force" in both TMC and PH. The Japanese version doesn't distinguish between the two. Because Zelda's force was a gift from the Minish, that has to precede PH. And TMC is clearly in the same Hyrule as its backstory.

The distinction between the Light Force and Force Gems in the Japanese games is created by the context in which the word "Force" is used. In TMC, "Force" has only one meaning, and that is the Light Force. In FSA, "Force" has only one meaning, and that is the Force Gems. Thus, when "Force" is used in FSA, we can deduce it is not referring to the Light Force, and vice versa.

But with that said, I agree with you that the Light Force being invoked would make a perfect alternative to the solution Lex and myself suggested. It explains why Zelda possesses such powerful magic. I'm going to go with your idea from now on.

[LionHarted]

I wouldn't say that the Light Force is Zelda/Tetra's life force, because then how could it have been given to her (the original recipient)?

[Raien]

I wouldn't say that the Light Force is Zelda/Tetra's life force, because then how could it have been given to her (the original recipient)?

The Light Force's relationship with Princess Zelda is spiritual, not physical. It is implied that the Light Force does not need to be manually transferred from mother to daughter, but it is within whoever happens to be Princess Zelda. Likewise, the "guiding" of Link and Zelda would also be spiritual; something which Link and Zelda might not be consciously aware of.

[Hero of Legend]

The distinction between the Light Force and Force Gems in the Japanese games is created by the context in which the word "Force" is used. In TMC, "Force" has only one meaning, and that is the Light Force. In FSA, "Force" has only one meaning, and that is the Force Gems. Thus, when "Force" is used in FSA, we can deduce it is not referring to the Light Force, and vice versa.

I think you're missing the point here. The ?Force? in TMC isn't different from the ?Force? in FSA because the words are used in reference to different objects, rather the implication is that the ?different objects? are the same (or at least are connected) because they have the same name. This is made painfully obvious in PH. And hell, even TMC didn't exactly imply otherwise:



Say, isn't that a Force Gem?

Edited by Hero of Legend, 12 April 2008 - 01:19 PM.

[Raien]

I think you're missing the point here. The “Force” in TMC isn't different from the “Force” in FSA because the words are used in reference to different objects, rather the implication is that the “different objects” are the same (or at least are connected) because they have the same name. This is made painfully obvious in PH. And hell, even TMC didn't exactly imply otherwise:



Say, isn't that a Force Gem?

"Force" in TMC is referring to a specific powerful force gem (what we know to be The Light Force). "Force" in FSA is referring to force gems in general, regardless of power, source or relevance to the story. The word "Force" remains the same, but the context of what it refers to changes between the two games.

There is no reason to believe that "Force" in TMC's ending does not mean exactly what it means in every other quotation in the game, as the Light Force. That's the context that Capcom created for it, that is clearly what it is meant to entail. What you are proposing is like the argument that ALTTP refers to two different Ganons; you're forcing a discrepancy within the game that doesn't belong.

[LionHarted]

I must protest something.

The argument is not that ALttP refers to two Ganons; it is that ALttP does NOT refer to the Ganon from the IW.

That said, even if TMC is referring to a specific Force Gem, interpreting "Force" as simply referring to life force is acceptable, since it's that specific "Force" that's being sought by Vaati.

[Hero of Legend]

There is no reason to believe that "Force" in TMC's ending does not mean exactly what it means in every other quotation in the game, as the Light Force. That's the context that Capcom created for it, that is clearly what it is meant to entail. What you are proposing is like the argument that ALTTP refers to two different Ganons; you're forcing a discrepancy within the game that doesn't belong.

What? I didn't say anything about the ending. I pointed out the fact that the Force Gems are, as PH and FSA say, crystallized Force; that is, Life Force/Light Force. Now as for what to make of that, I don?t know. Impossible is right about TMC's ending, but beyond that, Vaati links the Light Force to Zelda?s life by saying that he is sapping her Life force away, leaving her as nothing but ?cold, dead stone? which, incidentally, is also exactly what Bellum did. As for FSA, the Force Gems come mainly from the Four Sword and the land itself (the latter of which would be Life Force). Of course, this means the elements are also some kind of Force, but that too is implied by it's ability to restore people who have been turned to stone.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 12 April 2008 - 02:35 PM.

[Raien]

What? I didn't say anything about the ending.

Then you missed the point of the recent debate. It was being suggested that the meaning of "Force" in TMC's ending was referring to common life force, not the Light Force. Since it was used to mean the Light Force in every other reference, my argument is it means the Light Force in the ending.

[CID Farwin]

The distinction between the Light Force and Force Gems in the Japanese games is created by the context in which the word "Force" is used. In TMC, "Force" has only one meaning, and that is the Light Force. In FSA, "Force" has only one meaning, and that is the Force Gems. Thus, when "Force" is used in FSA, we can deduce it is not referring to the Light Force, and vice versa.

I think you're missing the point here. The ?Force? in TMC isn't different from the ?Force? in FSA because the words are used in reference to different objects, rather the implication is that the ?different objects? are the same (or at least are connected) because they have the same name. This is made painfully obvious in PH. And hell, even TMC didn't exactly imply otherwise:



Say, isn't that a Force Gem?

Yes it is. And it looks mighty...golden, if you catch my drift...

Then you missed the point of the recent debate. It was being suggested that the meaning of "Force" in TMC's ending was referring to common life force, not the Light Force. Since it was used to mean the Light Force in every other reference, my argument is it means the Light Force in the ending.

And then there's what Jumbie said:

In Japanese TMC, the Light Force is called "Force".
In Japanese FSA, the Force Gems are called "Force".
In Japanese PH, the Life Force is called "Force".
And needless to say, in Japanese StarWars, the Force is called the very same as in Zelda.

Light Force, Life Force, Force Gems--They're all midichlorians "Force."

[Hero of Legend]

Yes it is. And it looks mighty...golden, if you catch my drift...

Yeah, that's why it's called the golden light... Unless I totally missed the point?

[Raien]

I just think it's silly to accept that "Force" refers to the Light Force in all quotations except one. If it has one meaning within TMC, it should be accepted in all quotations. If two meanings are meant to be present in TMC, then that discrepancy should be explained in TMC. As I interpret it, it is the Light Force that guides Link and Zelda because that is what "Force" refers to in TMC.

Right, I'm just repeating myself now, so I'll move back and see what comes up next.

[CID Farwin]

Yes it is. And it looks mighty...golden, if you catch my drift...

Yeah, that's why it's called the golden light... Unless I totally missed the point?

No, I think you missed the point. It's a "golden light" that's represented with a golden triangle. Ring any bells?

Think hard now.

I just think it's silly to accept that "Force" refers to the Light Force in all quotations except one. If it has one meaning within TMC, it should be accepted in all quotations. If two meanings are meant to be present in TMC, then that discrepancy should be explained in TMC. As I interpret it, it is the Light Force that guides Link and Zelda because that is what "Force" refers to in TMC.

Right, I'm just repeating myself now, so I'll move back and see what comes up next.

No, what I'm saying is that they're not three different things, because the Japanese calls them all the same thing.

[Hero of Legend]

No, I think you missed the point. It's a "golden light" that's represented with a golden triangle. Ring any bells?

Think hard now.

Yeah, I kinda figured, but I thought we'd been over that already. Thing it, it doesn't make sense, so why not just accept that it is a Force Gem, which is not a Triforce piece?

Edited by Hero of Legend, 12 April 2008 - 05:06 PM.

[Raien]

No, what I'm saying is that they're not three different things, because the Japanese calls them all the same thing.

So if it was called "power", does that make it impossible for there to be different types of power? Or different meanings for which the word "power" is used?

The word "Force" has three different meanings depending on the context in which you place it. One meaning is what NOA translated as life force. One meaning is what NOA translated as force gems (the physical embodiment of life force). One meaning is what NOA translated as Light Force (a specific powerful force gem). In TMC, the meaning that "force" represents is Light Force.