Jump to content

IPBoard Styles©Fisana

Photo

Let's talk about The Minish Cap


  • Please log in to reply
225 replies to this topic

Poll: The Minish Cap (21 member(s) have cast votes)

Where does TMC go in the Timeline?

  1. Before OoT (12 votes [57.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.14%

  2. After TWW (3 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  3. After TP (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Some other place, because I'm crazy (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. I don't know, what are you asking me for? (3 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  6. THE TIMELINE IS A LIE (3 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#61 Arturo

Arturo

    I swear this game is Adults Only!

  • ZL Staff
  • 3,356 posts
  • Location:Un lugar de la Mancha
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 March 2008 - 06:48 AM

...You can't think of evidence for FSA being before ALttP? REALLY? It's... not very hard. Pretty much everything shared between those games follows the FSA -> ALttP structure. Ganon getting the trident (this can't be after ALttP), the Forest of Light becoming the Lost Woods, various places changing their function or people going from one place to another... We know that FSA is setting up for ALttP. FSA also has Gorons and Gerudo, ALttP has all the exact same locations and those races are gone.

Those evidences are not as strong as you think:
-The Trident contains an "evil spirit" that makes Ganondorf become Ganon, the "ancient demon reborn". Whose spirit could it be? Saying that FSA Gabnon was the first to use the Trident is simply not understanding FSA. The spirit within the Trident cannot be anyone but ALttP Ganon. Plus, in OoT Phantom Ganon had a Trident which is much more similar to FSA Truident than ALttP or OoX Tridents.
-The Lost Woods reverted to their old appearance (Light Forest) at the ending.
-Those are irrelevant to timeline. It's not like developers dedicate their tiem to think any tiny detail.
-How about Gerudos and Gorons not existing as a fullty developed race in 1991?

There is evidence for your placing, but there's also against. Perosnally I think FSA is clearly ALttP's sequel.

#62 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 27 March 2008 - 07:08 AM

I think this is starting to get us WAY off the actual point of this, which is that TMC has to be before TWW. The Hylian situation makes that certain. And ALttP (from the Japanese version) says:

Long before now, a people called the Hylians prospered in this land...


If the people in Kakariko were Hylian, she wouldn't say that. And also...

It is said that the Hylians could manipulate mysterious powers. The Seven Sages were also like that.

But, over the long years, the Hylian blood has faded, and even we descendants of the Seven Sages do not have strong powers.


If you look through the text, there are several other references to Hylians in the past tense, and only their descendants exist now. The people in TMC are Hylians, not merely Hylian descendants. Otherwise there would be people without Hylian blood living in Hyrule. Hylians are clearly MUCH more prominent than in TWW.


1) There are no references to Hylians in TMC.
2) Find me a piece of official art that depicts a character in ALttP without long ears, despite the fact that Hylians are apparently an ancient race.
3) The references to Hylians in TP are of the same quality as the same references in ALttP--references to an ancient race.

Not true, there are some rounded ears, and there are also people whose ears we would be able to see if they were long.


The long ears is a non-sequitur in any case, both in the assertion that people with long ears are Hylian and in the assertion that descendants of Hylians don't have long ears. Not that all of the characters in ALttP even have to be descended from them in the first place.

We would talk in exactly the same way about God creating humans.


We would say "god created the humans"? We might say "god created the human race", but we would not say "god created the humans." Again, this could be a matter of translation, so I really can't say how strong this phrasing is.

Yes, according to legend, America was made by the Americans, who, as we all know,
are the closest race to God... But also according to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to
God, and some say THESE people made the Americans."


1) First of all, America was made by the Britons.
2) Secondly, members of a culture do not refer to "the Americans" as "the Americans" in dialogue; that's third-person. They would say simply "Americans." "The Americans" is how foreigners would refer to us.

You can talk about your own race's history in the third person.


I wouldn't refer to them as "the Americans," though. That would suggest I'm not a part of that group.

-The Trident contains an "evil spirit" that makes Ganondorf become Ganon, the "ancient demon reborn". Whose spirit could it be? Saying that FSA Gabnon was the first to use the Trident is simply not understanding FSA. The spirit within the Trident cannot be anyone but ALttP Ganon. Plus, in OoT Phantom Ganon had a Trident which is much more similar to FSA Truident than ALttP or OoX Tridents.
-The Lost Woods reverted to their old appearance (Light Forest) at the ending.


1) Wasn't "Ganon" "born" during the IW/OoT?
2) ALttP Ganon is not the only incarnation of Ganon in the series. It could just as well be a reincarnation of LoZ and/or Oracles Ganon.
3) They didn't.

Edited by LionHarted, 27 March 2008 - 07:09 AM.


#63 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 27 March 2008 - 07:26 AM

1) There are no references to Hylians in TMC.


The Hylian race doesn't play a part in the story, so why should it be referenced?

2) Find me a piece of official art that depicts a character in ALttP without long ears, despite the fact that Hylians are apparently an ancient race.


Lol, if character sprites don't support a point, pretend it's only official art (for which the depiction of characters is mostly limited to Link, Zelda and Agahnim) that matters.

The long ears is a non-sequitur in any case, both in the assertion that people with long ears are Hylian and in the assertion that descendants of Hylians don't have long ears. Not that all of the characters in ALttP even have to be descended from them in the first place.


TWW is good evidence of an active decline in the long ears, which makes it impossible to say "People without long ears must not be Hylian descendants". In fact, ALTTP's manual made clear that the Hylians spread themselves over the world and that the people we see, long ears or without, are all Hylian descendants.

I wouldn't refer to them as "the Americans," though. That would suggest I'm not a part of that group.


If you were a historian, as Shad is, you would refer to "the Americans", in order to clarify which group of people you were referring to.

Edited by jhurvid, 27 March 2008 - 07:27 AM.


#64 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 27 March 2008 - 07:28 AM

Lol, if character sprites don't support a point, pretend it's only official art (for which the depiction of characters is mostly limited to Link, Zelda and Agahnim) that matters.


All characters who are depicted in official art have long ears. How's that?

TWW is good evidence of an active decline in the long ears, which makes it impossible to say "People without long ears must not be Hylian descendants". In fact, ALTTP's made clear that the Hylians spread themselves over the world and that the people we see, long ears or without, are all Hylian descendants.


1) TWW actually doesn't show an active decline in the long ears. I was mistaken in ever claiming this.
2) We don't see people with short ears in ALttP's character sprites, though.

Those that we don't see long ears on are similar to characters who we do not see pronounced long ears on in TMC's spritesheet, either, which is found here.

Examples:
ALttP Merchant
Beedle

ALttP Old Man
Marshall

These are, by the way, the two people Impy pointed out as not having long ears.

I defer to Jumbie on the other point, although I don't think TP is on the same timeline as the other games, so it doesn't really matter to me.

Edited by LionHarted, 27 March 2008 - 07:40 AM.


#65 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 27 March 2008 - 07:52 AM

All characters who are depicted in official art have long ears. How's that?


Show me official character art of anyone other than the main storyline characters (Link, Zelda, Agahnim, Sahasrahla) and then we'll talk.

1) TWW actually doesn't show an active decline in the long ears.


We know that the survivors of the Great Flood were all Hylian because only they could hear the guiding voices of the gods. Thus, all the short eared people are Hylian descendants.

These are, by the way, the two people Impy pointed out as not having long ears.


Marshall appears to have long ears, due to the black outline where his ears would be, as opposed to the brown outline that covers the top of his head.
Beedle is clearly not from Hyrule, so he would not have the Hylian long ears.

Edited by jhurvid, 27 March 2008 - 08:07 AM.


#66 Arturo

Arturo

    I swear this game is Adults Only!

  • ZL Staff
  • 3,356 posts
  • Location:Un lugar de la Mancha
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 March 2008 - 08:37 AM

1) Wasn't "Ganon" "born" during the IW/OoT?
2) ALttP Ganon is not the only incarnation of Ganon in the series. It could just as well be a reincarnation of LoZ and/or Oracles Ganon.
3) They didn't.

1)He was born during the SW/OoT, was sealed within the Dark World and didn't die until ALttP. It was reborn in FSA
2)He didn't have the Trident in LoZ, which btw comes after ALttP. And in the Oracles he was just briefly revived, though he didn't take a human body. Oracles illustrate my point better. In FSA, Ganon possesed Ganondorf, so he was capable of thinking and all that. In OoX he took teh dead body of Twinrova (it needed a body, just like in FSA), but since it lacked teh conscious element, it was just a raging beast.
3) I remember taht, but I am going to play it again today to check it.

#67 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 27 March 2008 - 09:45 AM

Show me official character art of anyone other than the main storyline characters (Link, Zelda, Agahnim, Sahasrahla) and then we'll talk.


I did several posts ago.

LONG EARS:

Hylian
Hylian woman
Lots of people with long ears
Flute boy with long ears


We know that the survivors of the Great Flood were all Hylian because only they could hear the guiding voices of the gods. Thus, all the short eared people are Hylian descendants.


Except none of their ears are really any shorter than Link's or Zelda's.

Marshall appears to have long ears, due to the black outline where his ears would be, as opposed to the brown outline that covers the top of his head.
Beedle is clearly not from Hyrule, so he would not have the Hylian long ears.


These arguments could both be applied to their counterparts, thank you very much.

1)He was born during the SW/OoT, was sealed within the Dark World and didn't die until ALttP. It was reborn in FSA
2)He didn't have the Trident in LoZ, which btw comes after ALttP. And in the Oracles he was just briefly revived, though he didn't take a human body. Oracles illustrate my point better. In FSA, Ganon possesed Ganondorf, so he was capable of thinking and all that. In OoX he took teh dead body of Twinrova (it needed a body, just like in FSA), but since it lacked teh conscious element, it was just a raging beast.
3) I remember taht, but I am going to play it again today to check it.


1) He died after OoT in both timelines in TP and TWW, respectively. This means ALttP is at least his second incarnation, which means that he could have been reborn prior during FSA and/or LoZ.
2) He does in the Official art. The form he takes in Oracles is really irrelevant to my point, since I was only referring to a Ganon-death that FSA could come after.
3) I'm 99% sure the Dark World trees are still there at the end of the game.

Edited by LionHarted, 27 March 2008 - 09:48 AM.


#68 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 27 March 2008 - 10:05 AM

I did several posts ago.


Aren't these American/European illustrations?

Except none of their ears are really any shorter than Link's or Zelda's.


And yet Ganondorf notably targeted certain girls for their long ears. Clearly if the art style makes it harder to differentiate long and short ears, we can at least rely on the storyline to tell us which people have long ears and which have short ears.

PS: We should also ask ourselves how Ganondorf knew Princess Zelda would have long ears. Clearly the long ears are a symbol of the Hylian blood running strongly in her veins.

These arguments could both be applied to their counterparts, thank you very much.


It can be applied to the ALTTP Merchant, but not the ALTTP Old Man, because there is no colour differentiation of the ears and the hair.

Edited by jhurvid, 27 March 2008 - 10:10 AM.


#69 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 27 March 2008 - 12:30 PM

And yet Ganondorf notably targeted certain girls for their long ears. Clearly if the art style makes it harder to differentiate long and short ears, we can at least rely on the storyline to tell us which people have long ears and which have short ears.


The Helmaroc King captured every girl seen in the game who is between the ages of 8 and 18.

Clearly they weren't trying to form a distinction.

Edited by LionHarted, 27 March 2008 - 12:31 PM.


#70 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 27 March 2008 - 12:40 PM

The Helmaroc King captured every girl seen in the game who is between the ages of 8 and 18.

Clearly they weren't trying to form a distinction.


Stating "The Helmaroc King has been capturing girls with long ears" is not a distinction?

#71 Fyxe

Fyxe

    hwhere is fyxckz adn her big boobs/>?

  • Members
  • 7,132 posts
  • Location:England

Posted 27 March 2008 - 01:02 PM

LONG EARS:

Hylian
Hylian woman
Lots of people with long ears
Flute boy with long ears

Official art from the US (or European) guide is not 'official' in the same sense as standard official art.

1) He died after OoT in both timelines in TP and TWW, respectively. This means ALttP is at least his second incarnation, which means that he could have been reborn prior during FSA and/or LoZ.

TLoZ is a sequel to ALttP, so no. FSA merely requires Ganon (that's GANON, not Ganondorf) to have died beforehand. Nobody equates the name Ganondorf with Ganon, they are considered seperate entitities at first. Therefore it actually makes a lot more sense for FSA to occur in a similar time period to the Oracle games, where there is no mention of Ganondorf.

2) He does in the Official art. The form he takes in Oracles is really irrelevant to my point, since I was only referring to a Ganon-death that FSA could come after.

That is retroactive official art from the Zelda III US guide, and yet again, that isn't official. It is merely a representation. That said, Ganon has a trident in the BS-X Zelda remake, so hey. Frankly I don't think it matters one jot whether he has a trident in TLoZ or not.

3) I'm 99% sure the Dark World trees are still there at the end of the game.

In FSA, those trees do not appear solely in the Dark World. Those trees may or may not have been there when the forest was 'light' or not. I vaguely remember them appearing elsewhere in the game anyway, and everyone knows they're on Koholint as well, not that that necessarily means much.

Edited by Fyxe, 27 March 2008 - 01:03 PM.


#72 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 27 March 2008 - 01:23 PM

Stating "The Helmaroc King has been capturing girls with long ears" is not a distinction?


Does it matter, when we know there are peoples without long ears who are not Hylian and not provably related to them?

That Ganon is capturing girls with long ears could just as well mean he's going after descendants of Hylians as opposed to ordinary humans as much as it could mean that there are still pure Hylians.

Official art from the US (or European) guide is not 'official' in the same sense as standard official art.


It's still licensed, though, is it not?

TLoZ is a sequel to ALttP


Proof?

FSA merely requires Ganon (that's GANON, not Ganondorf) to have died beforehand.


The names are interchangeable in TWW.

2) He does in the Official art. The form he takes in Oracles is really irrelevant to my point, since I was only referring to a Ganon-death that FSA could come after.

That is retroactive official art from the Zelda III US guide, and yet again, that isn't official. It is merely a representation. That said, Ganon has a trident in the BS-X Zelda remake, so hey. Frankly I don't think it matters one jot whether he has a trident in TLoZ or not.

In FSA, those trees do not appear solely in the Dark World.


I was distinguishing them from normal trees.

Edited by LionHarted, 27 March 2008 - 01:24 PM.


#73 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 27 March 2008 - 01:37 PM

Does it matter, when we know there are peoples without long ears who are not Hylian and not probably related to them?

That Ganon is capturing girls with long ears could just as well mean he's going after descendants of Hylians as opposed to ordinary humans as much as it could mean that there are still pure Hylians.


1) As I said in a previous post, the survivors of the Great Flood must all be Hylian descendants because only the Hylians could hear the voices of the gods that guided them to safety.

2) The reason why Ganon was capturing girls with long ears was to capture Princess Zelda, the keeper of the Triforce of Wisdom. Ganondorf knew that Zelda would be a girl with long ears, and so he sent the Helmaroc King to kidnap girls with long ears in the hope that she would be found. But how would Ganondorf know that Zelda had long ears? Well, the long ears are the symbol of the Hylian bloodline, and as a descendant of the Hylian Royal Family, Zelda would still possess long ears when that trait had declined amongst others.


It's still licensed, though, is it not?


The NOA intruction manual was licensed; doesn't make it accurate.

Edited by jhurvid, 27 March 2008 - 01:37 PM.


#74 Fyxe

Fyxe

    hwhere is fyxckz adn her big boobs/>?

  • Members
  • 7,132 posts
  • Location:England

Posted 27 March 2008 - 01:38 PM

Official art from the US (or European) guide is not 'official' in the same sense as standard official art.


It's still licensed, though, is it not?

No idea, but it wouldn't be licenced for a game, it was licenced by NoA for a guidebook. Nothing to do with the people who made the game.

Proof?

ALttP was made as a prequel to TLoZ, focusing on the mythology surrounding Ganon, the Triforce and Hyrule that was absent from TLoZ and Zelda II. There has been nothing to imply that this relationship has been retconned in the slightest, and thus it still stands.

The names are interchangeable in TWW.

Exactly my point. They're not interchangable in FSA. Historically they only know of Ganon, not Ganondorf. Thus FSA must occur a long time after Ganon's death, and his death as Ganon specifically. I therefore do not see how it could occur shortly after TWW or TP, considering Ganondorf and Ganon are interchangable figures in both games. It isn't until after ALttP that we know that the name Ganondorf is lost in the mythology. In all games following ALttP, such as TLoZ, Zelda II and, in my opinion, the Oracle games and FSA, only the name Ganon is known, and he is only thought of (and makes appearances) as a beast.

I was distinguishing them from normal trees.

My point is that we don't know that there were ever 'normal' trees in the forest of FSA. Those trees may simply be the way they represent the forest in FSA. The Lost Woods in ALttP doesn't have trees like that either, anyway.

Edited by Fyxe, 27 March 2008 - 03:19 PM.


#75 Mourngriever

Mourngriever

    Novice

  • Members
  • 11 posts
  • Location:Bristol
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 March 2008 - 03:10 PM

In TMC the words 'Hylian Lore' is spoken of by Vaati. So Hylians are referenced.

Bill Trinen also said the Legend of the Fairy was important to the Zelda Timeline in an interview. I remember when Impossible stated that only the Japanese Developers could be trusted and that his information could not be considered Canon. I also remember a time when the mention of Hylians dying out was absolute blasphemy because 'Link is Hylian in all games.'

What changed your mind on both these things?

#76 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 27 March 2008 - 03:17 PM

ALttP was made as a prequel to TLoZ, focusing on the mythology surrounding Ganon, the Triforce and Hyrule that was absent from TLoZ and Zelda II.


There's no clear continuity between ALttP and LoZ/AoL, especially regarding Ganon. Aside from tradition and that ALttP references legends that would certainly have predated LoZ/AoL, I see little reason for ALttP to be a prequel to LoZ/AoL, much less for there to be a connection at all between those games independently. If the developers do mean for them to be connected, it would be through the Oracle games, but even then that doesn't force LoZ to be after.

There has been nothing to imply that this relationship has been retconned in the slightest, and thus is still stands.


There has only been one statement placing LoZ/AoL in any sort of timeline and it says that LoZ and AoL are before ALttP. There is nothing about that statement itself that makes it impossible; in fact, recent developments in the timeline (the impossibility of a clear OoT-ALttP progression) make ALttP being before LoZ/AoL entirely unnecessary because ALttP can no longer possibly be viewed as the oldest game in the timeline.

I therefore do not see how it could occur shortly after TWW or TP, considering Ganondorf and Ganon are interchangable figures in both games.


Personally I do not place it shortly after either.

I place it after both LoZ/AoL and Oracles, as well as TMC. In LoZ/AoL and Oracles the demon beast Ganon takes center-stage, with Ganondorf being entirely absent. The appearance of Vaati as the primary threat to the peace in Hyrule during TMC and FS would also serve to minimize the knowledge of Ganon. Remember that it was thought that Vaati was the King of Darkness at first in FSA.

So, in my opinion, the Ganon progression is as follows:

1) OoT - Birth of Ganon when the King of Thieves, Ganondorf, takes the Triforce of Power from the Sacred Realm. (Birth of Ganon took place when the Triforce was taken from the Sacred Realm after creation - ALttP manual)
2) Adult OoT - Ganon/dorf is sealed in the Sacred Realm by the seven sages of Hyrule during the Imprisoning War, with the help of the Hero of Time. (OoT = IW; creator quote)
3) Pre-TWW - Ganon and/or Ganondorf escapes the sages' seal, finding the way out of the sealed Dark World. (Possibility of soul-splitting a la Agahnim?)
4) TWW - The Triforce is reunited by the King of Hyrule, bringing it into the possession of the royal family. Ganon/dorf is killed by the Hero of Winds. (Only time we actually see the full Triforce being obtained by a member the royal family.)
5) LoZ - Ganon the demon beast escapes the Dark World (was the NoA official site correct?) or is revived (depending on the circumstances of 3). He takes the Triforce of Power from the hands of the royal family. He is defeated by a wandering hero recruited by Zelda's nursemaid, Impa.
6) Oracles - Twinrova attempts to revive Ganon by sacrificing Zelda. Instead they revive a mindless, raging Ganon, which is defeated by the Hero of Legend.
7) FSA - Ganon's Trident, which houses his spirit, is sealed in the desert pyramid. Ganondorf the guardian of the Gerudo violates Gerudo law and proceeds to the Pyramid and releases the spirit of Ganon. Ganon is sealed in the Four Sword / in the Dark World by the maidens of Hyrule. He escapes the Four Sword, but is unable to fully return to the world of light. (FSA ending meant to tie in to the ALttP Four Sword extra dungeon?)
8) ALttP - Ganon attempts to break the sages' seal by splitting his soul and sending a persona named Agahnim into the light world to offer maidens descended from the sages to break the seal.

#77 Showsni

Showsni

    The Fallen

  • Members
  • 13,386 posts
  • Location:Gloucester
  • Gender:Male
  • England

Posted 27 March 2008 - 06:44 PM

All this talk of Hylians is useless, I'm afraid, because Hylian blood can just as easily become stronger as weaker; an influx of pure blooded Hylians from outside Hyrule could mean that there are more pure Hylians in a later game than an earlier one.

#78 Impossible

Impossible

    Mage

  • Members
  • 586 posts

Posted 27 March 2008 - 07:56 PM

-How about Gerudos and Gorons not existing as a fullty developed race in 1991?


That's not the point. They DID exist in 2004. Nintendo deliberately put them in the game, and they knew that those races weren't in ALttP. I don't think Nintendo intend to make a new Zelda after ALttP any time soon. It makes more sense if FSA was supposed to be between OoT and ALttP. All the little details also do work as evidence, if you consider that they were probably all added with the assumption of FSA being before ALttP in mind (like the thieves in Kakariko moving to the forest). I just don't see how it makes more sense for Ganon to have a trident, then lose it, then get it again. Especially with the implications that ALttP and LoZ have the same Ganon. More importantly, in FSA, Ganondorf's name is recognised by the sages only as a Gerudo from the desert. They've never heard of Ganon at all. That's ridiculous after the IW, and particularly after ALttP. It's only even plausible after TP (Ganon never conquered Hyrule on that timeline, and his role in TP's events wasn't well-known). Especially as these maidens must be in the same line as ALttP's.

This placement has been argued before and failed... I just don't exactly remember what the deciding evidence was. There are definitely contradictions there, but I always forget what the biggest problem is because it's rarely an order I consider much. I would suggest that based on how the Trident is found, someone had to put it there, which would be odd after ALttP, but I can't remember if much was said about the trident's origins that would contradict a placement after ALttP. There's no evidence that it has anything to do with ALttP, anyway, where there's no sign of Ganon's trident - and if there were, it would be in the Sacred Realm.

What about the Knights of Hyrule? Link in ALttP is the last of their bloodline, but they're still around in FSA. They're a part of the story, which at least gives them some value as evidence. There's also the fact that Ganon is permanently in his pig form from FSA onwards, so it makes sense to include ALttP and LoZ there.

The spirit within the Trident cannot be anyone but ALttP Ganon.


It doesn't have be be Ganon. It could be just what the game tells us, an ancient evil demonic power. I don't see why FSA is so "clearly" a sequel, because if it were that clear, other people would be able to see the reasons. Most of us don't.
Lex, just drop the fucking Hylian argument. It's over. ALttP states for a fact that Hylians are a race of the past, meaning that regardless of their ears - which are not as long or seen as often as actual Hylian ears in other games like TMC - they are not Hylian. Even if they were, that wouldn't prove anything about TMC being later. There is no way in which you can form this argument into something that proves that TMC isn't first. Do you even know what the hell you're trying to prove anymore? All you're doing is suggesting that TMC could just as easily be anywhere, but the evidence, and the fact that the ears in TMC seem so deliberate, suggest the people are most likely Hylian.

2) Secondly, members of a culture do not refer to "the Americans" as "the Americans" in dialogue; that's third-person. They would say simply "Americans."


Not if they were speaking about something historically, as Shad is.

1) TWW actually doesn't show an active decline in the long ears. I was mistaken in ever claiming this.


THIS LINE IS WHERE THIS ARGUMENT SHOULD HAVE ENDED. Yes, we can keep going, because you're mistaken and because the ears of most people in TWW only suggest that they are Hylian descendants (which makes sense with the flood), compared to real Hylians like Link and Zelda. This is a necessary fact, because Ganon chose people with long ears, knowing Zelda would have them. But continuing this would prove NOTHING about TMC. It's over. And by the way, does anyone have pictures of the other kidnapped girls?

I do think there are probably flood survivors who weren't Hylian, and there are people without any sign of Hylian ancestry in TWW to reflect that. The Hylians wouldn't just have left everyone else to die. And we know that the Kokiri and Zora survived, in some form.

2) We don't see people with short ears in ALttP's character sprites, though.


A couple of the ones I pointed out had non-pointed ears. And you'll notice that unlike in TMC, you can't find long ears on every person, aside from ONE, Beedle (who I did notice since I last posted, by the way), who is OBVIOUSLY supposed to be a foreigner.

Bill Trinen also said the Legend of the Fairy was important to the Zelda Timeline in an interview. I remember when Impossible stated that only the Japanese Developers could be trusted and that his information could not be considered Canon. I also remember a time when the mention of Hylians dying out was absolute blasphemy because 'Link is Hylian in all games.'


Sounds like you're misrepresenting my arguments, and I'm not entirely sure where you're getting them from. Bill Trinen never said that to my knowledge. Why on earth WOULD he say a thing like that? I've never seen this interview, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist. And you're right, I said Hylians don't COMPLETELY die out. Link is always Hylian, denying that would be stupid. There is always a Hylian bloodline in Hyrule. In ALttP, it's weakened, and there are few Hylians, but we know Link (who is descended from Hylian knights) and Zelda are among them. And many others are Hylian descendants, but I would never argue that ALttP's people are Hylian because THEY SAY THAT THEY AREN'T.

4) TWW - The Triforce is reunited by the King of Hyrule, bringing it into the possession of the royal family.


There are no words for how wrong you are. Let's invent one. This is downright Lionhartical. Also, this topic is meant to be about TMC. Let me guess, you've forgotten about TMC because you realised you don't have any evidence?

Edited by Impossible, 27 March 2008 - 08:09 PM.


#79 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 27 March 2008 - 08:28 PM

From my understanding, it is actually quite well known that Bill Trinen said the Legend of the Fairy was canon. But then again, NOA believed in a single timeline up until the release of Twilight Princess. I remember them saying this as well.

#80 Impossible

Impossible

    Mage

  • Members
  • 586 posts

Posted 27 March 2008 - 08:33 PM

Is there a link to this? If it were true, I would think some single timeline theorist would have pointed it out years ago. Why would Bill Trinen have commented on a useless detail like that, rather than something relevant to the actual story? "Canon" and "relevant to the timeline" are also not the same thing.

#81 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 27 March 2008 - 09:01 PM

Is there a link to this? If it were true, I would think some single timeline theorist would have pointed it out years ago. Why would Bill Trinen have commented on a useless detail like that, rather than something relevant to the actual story? "Canon" and "relevant to the timeline" are also not the same thing.


People never point out Bill Trinen because everyone came to the conclusion he didn't know what he was talking about, like Miyamoto. It was only when you raised a quote from Trinen that the LotF quote arose. And no, I don't know where the link is. Google search?

#82 avroillusion

avroillusion

    Healer

  • Members
  • 86 posts
  • Location:Canada
  • Gender:Female

Posted 27 March 2008 - 09:45 PM

It doesn't matter to me. As was mentioned before, the Minish Cap is awfully vague about things. It would fit at the beginning, I suppose. With the Minish Cap, you can't be sure if some things are just supposed to be a joke or a cameo. The Four Sword series' island Hyrule looks smaller than the normal island Hyrule, but that might just be the WW Style way of exaggerating things. The different landmarks make me a bit doubtful, but I guess names change and cities move/are destroyed over time. I mean, TP's Hyrule Town moved from OOT's Town, didn't it? I do think the Light Force makes itself in all magic wielding Zeldas so far; since I thought it to meant strong magic with a light/holy? affinity.

The Zelda Timeline is an unstable thing. I don't think you can trust even the creators since what they say is always changing. It reflects how they see the series at the moment they are asked, though, so I just keep their ideas in mind until the next game comes out and they decide to retcon something.

#83 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 27 March 2008 - 10:46 PM

That's not the point. They DID exist in 2004. Nintendo deliberately put them in the game, and they knew that those races weren't in ALttP.


They're in Oracles, too, though, which I believe is being placed before FSA by a few who put it after ALttP.

Unfortunately for that argument most of the world environment details (the Kakariko thieves, the decline of the Desert Palace, et cetera) point to a pre-ALttP FSA.

What about the Knights of Hyrule? Link in ALttP is the last of their bloodline, but they're still around in FSA.


Surely the royal family will recruit more knights?

Link in ALttP is the last of the bloodline of a certain family of knights, according to the ALttP text, if I'm not mistaken.

It doesn't have be be Ganon. It could be just what the game tells us, an ancient evil demonic power. I don't see why FSA is so "clearly" a sequel, because if it were that clear, other people would be able to see the reasons. Most of us don't.


Actually, I think it's meant to be read "Ganon, ancient demon reborn", with the king of darkness title thrown in-between, but I could be wrong.

the fact that the ears in TMC seem so deliberate, suggest the people are most likely Hylian.


The ears in ALttP are just as deliberate. XD

Not if they were speaking about something historically, as Shad is.


My point was that the references to Hylians are of the same quality as the ones in ALttP, which is true. Sure, we don't have the bloodline thinning line, but I think it can be assumed by the fact that non-Hylians coexist with Hylians that it will happen and has happened.

THIS LINE IS WHERE THIS ARGUMENT SHOULD HAVE ENDED. Yes, we can keep going, because you're mistaken and because the ears of most people in TWW only suggest that they are Hylian descendants (which makes sense with the flood), compared to real Hylians like Link and Zelda.


No, no, all long/pointed ears in the game look more or less the same. They vary in how well they're pronounced in official art, but this really doesn't mean anything (especially since Zelda's ears are longer than Tetra's, and Daphnes's ears are probably among the shortest). xD

That's where I was mistaken.



And by the way, does anyone have pictures of the other kidnapped girls?

I do think there are probably flood survivors who weren't Hylian, and there are people without any sign of Hylian ancestry in TWW to reflect that. The Hylians wouldn't just have left everyone else to die. And we know that the Kokiri and Zora survived, in some form.

A couple of the ones I pointed out had non-pointed ears. And you'll notice that unlike in TMC, you can't find long ears on every person, aside from ONE, Beedle (who I did notice since I last posted, by the way), who is OBVIOUSLY supposed to be a foreigner.


And the other sprite I pointed out. There are a couple others, women, that I didn't point out.

And it actually looks like Beedle's ears are just hidden under his weird do.

(With respect to my statement that the King of Hyrule got the Triforce) There are no words for how wrong you are.


I didn't assert anything besides that a member of the royal family got the Triforce, something we haven't seen in any other game, yet something that we know happened prior to LoZ.

Also, this topic is meant to be about TMC. Let me guess, you've forgotten about TMC because you realised you don't have any evidence?


I'm trying to discuss where TMC might fit in the general Triforce/Ganon story. That involves discussing a number of other things involving which games surround TMC.

#84 Jumbie

Jumbie

    Language Freak

  • ZL Staff
  • 1,023 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Gender:Female

Posted 27 March 2008 - 10:52 PM

In one European text version of TWW, the Helmaroc King is said to abduct blonde girls instead of long-eared ones. It might therefore be that the Japanese text talks about something else than long ears - and we cannot check.

None of you got what I meant with AoL, right? AoL happens long after ALttP, but look at the ears of all the NPCs in the game: long pointed ears!

And by the way, does anyone have pictures of the other kidnapped girls?


Sure, here and here. These clearly are long and pointed Hylian ears. For comparison with what non-Hylian ears look like in TWW: Sue-Belle from Outset.

And then, here's also what you requested earlier.

#85 Impossible

Impossible

    Mage

  • Members
  • 586 posts

Posted 28 March 2008 - 12:04 AM

They're in Oracles, too, though, which I believe is being placed before FSA by a few who put it after ALttP.


The Oracles aren't in Hyrule. Why do you always fail to understand this and bring them up in irrelevant discussions?

Surely the royal family will recruit more knights?


That makes no sense. They're part of a specific group of knights that existed years before ALttP. They died out LONG before ALttP, and they weren't replaced. There were normal knights, but that has nothing to do with the lineage we're talking about. Link in ALttP is the last of that lineage, and FSA's knights seem to be part of that, too. I believe they're called by the same name in Japanese as the Knights of Hyrule are called in the Japanese ALttP manual, too, as well as being Knights of Hyrule in the GBA ALttP and in FSA.

The ears in ALttP are just as deliberate. XD


Yes, especially when they aren't visible on most NPCs. How is that as deliberate as having them stick through hair and making sure they can be seen on every person?

You were already proven wrong about Shad's line (by someone who translated it in the Japanese version!), not even responding to that.

No, no, all long/pointed ears in the game look more or less the same. They vary in how well they're pronounced in official art, but this really doesn't mean anything (especially since Zelda's ears are longer than Tetra's, and Daphnes's ears are probably among the shortest). xD


Go play TWW again. You're wrong, a quick look at Windfall Island will show you the difference between Link's ears and almost everyone else's. And the plot itself distinguishes between people that have long ears and normal people, I think we have to trust that. It means that not everyone has the same amount of Hylian ancestry.

And are you blind? This guy does have long ears, under his hair. Maybe you should play the game yourself so you can see him from the side. He's near the upper part of the inn in Hyrule Town, and his ears are the same as what many people in the game have. If there are any others you think don't have their ears shown, point them out.

I didn't assert anything besides that a member of the royal family got the Triforce, something we haven't seen in any other game, yet something that we know happened prior to LoZ.


He also died, and Hyrule no longer exists. Oops.

Thanks for those pictures, Jumbie. It looks to me like their ears, along with Link's, Zelda's, and most of the pirates', stick out sideways. The people in Windfall have big-ish ears, some of them pointy-looking, but they aren't long like that. Funnily enough, the snot-nosed kid has round ears in TWW, but pointed ears in TMC. Also, I think we can discount the idea of the kidnapped girls having blond hair... That has to be a mistake.

AoL is a pain to deal with, because it's before much Hylian history was established by ALttP... And it's also an NES game, so it doesn't look the best. I would still say that we should trust what ALttP tell us. Which is NOT like what TP tells us.

Also, one other thing...

Hyrule wasn't a nation at all TMC. It was barely even a town. TMC seems to be a Hyrule far back in it's early settlement days and the surrounding areas.


This isn't true. There's a king, that means it's a kingdom, not just a town. And we know that there were kings before him, since we meet the ghost of one of them. TMC can't be that early in Hyrule's history, although it is the earliest we see.

Edited by Impossible, 28 March 2008 - 12:06 AM.


#86 CID Farwin

CID Farwin

    Disciple

  • Members
  • 2,935 posts
  • Location:At the threshold
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 March 2008 - 12:53 AM

There are a couple others, women, that I didn't point out.

you mean the ones wearing scarves?

Link in ALttP is the last of the bloodline of a certain family of knights, according to the ALttP text, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, if I remember the ZL stuff correctly, ALttP does belong to a "Clan of Knights." The "Knights of Hyrule" was the NoA version. I would actually go so far as to say that it's a 'certain' clan or 'Knight's Bloodline' if you will. ;)

That makes no sense. They're part of a specific group of knights that existed years before ALttP. They died out LONG before ALttP, and they weren't replaced. There were normal knights, but that has nothing to do with the lineage we're talking about. Link in ALttP is the last of that lineage, and FSA's knights seem to be part of that, too. I believe they're called by the same name in Japanese as the Knights of Hyrule are called in the Japanese ALttP manual, too, as well as being Knights of Hyrule in the GBA ALttP and in FSA.

Jumbie will have to field what they're called, but I would like to see pictures of the Knights, as a reminder. Do they look much like Link, or the Hero of Men from TMC? That would definitely be interesting.

As for the Shad argument, he is ONE PERSON that refers to the Hylians in third person. ONE not "the characters with long ears." ONE. which is by no means representative of a whole. Besides, there are TWO Sky Beings('Occa') who refer to Link as HYLIAN (now if you'll EXCUSE my MAKING LOUD POINTS..) This is in sharp contrast to ALttP, where it is stated multiple times to my knowledge that the Hylian blood is thinning.

#87 Impossible

Impossible

    Mage

  • Members
  • 586 posts

Posted 28 March 2008 - 02:21 AM

I'm pretty sure Jumbie was the one who said that, somewhere in the translation topic. It's something about a family of knights, it's the same in FSA and ALttP's manual, but I think different in ALttP itself or something (not sure if that's always the case).

#88 Jumbie

Jumbie

    Language Freak

  • ZL Staff
  • 1,023 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Gender:Female

Posted 28 March 2008 - 05:18 PM

In one European text version of TWW, the Helmaroc King is said to abduct blonde girls instead of long-eared ones. It might therefore be that the Japanese text talks about something else than long ears - and we cannot check.

It's probably wrong, because Maggie is not blonde.

Well, first of all it's wrong because I must have misremembered that. I probably read it in a fan comic or so.. ^^;

To CID: the Swiftblades look like the Hero of Men from TMC, and also pass down the hero's sword techniques. ;)

Ah yeah, that theory was a good one, let's not forget about it. There are no arguments against it, are there?

The distinction in TWW doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with the decline of a trait, either, since we know that many humans exist on the Great Sea who are definitely not Hylian, otherwise the decline of the trait could never have taken place anyway. So, really, in order for the decline of long ears to have taken place, we must assume that non-Hylian humans exist on the Great Sea, in which case we can't necessarily determine short-eared Hylian descendants from short-eared non-Hylian humans.

You are completely correct here.

It's a complete assumption that anyone on the Great Sea in TWW is not a Hylian descendant.

Why should there *not* be non-Hylian humans on the Great Sea?! Non-Hylian humans have always lived around Hyrule, as early as TP.

In fact, it's a complete assumption that the Ordonians in TP are not Hylian descendants themselves.

Why should they be descendants, with TP being so early in the timeline and Ordon not being a part of Hyrule anyway?

In which case the long ears would not be a good process of elimination to find Princess Zelda. The fact is that the decline of the long ears is a plot point by which Ganondorf finding Zelda relied upon. To say it didn't happen defeats that plot point.

So how can we determine whether other characters in TWW have long ears or short ears? With difficulty, which is why we have the "Ganondorf-finding-Zelda" plot point to make that distinction for us.

We can determine it by simply looking at the two pics I posted in my last post. The Outset girl has short round ears, most other TWW charas have long pointed ears. As simple as that.

And did you consider that Ganondorf did not capture any round-eared girls, such as said Outset girl would be?

What causes the decline? I think it's tied to the land of Hyrule; those who live in Hyrule proper share the gods' blessings whereas those who live outside of it (or above it, in the case of the Great Flood) lose their blessing.

...Nice invention. No wait, I don't find it that nice at all.

But you said that there's lots of long-eared people on the Great Sea, so how would targeting the long ears lead Ganondorf to Zelda? It's like getting the Helmaroc King to kidnap anyone with a nose; it's not going to be something that would distinguish Zelda from anyone else.

It's at least sorting out those few who have round ears. Btw, Ritos also have long ears - so why doesn't Ganondorf capture Medli?

My argument is that you are wrong about the majority of people in TWW having long ears; the ear size of characters is inconsistent with that of other games because of the change in art style and therefore it's unreliable to determine who has long ears and who doesn't.

This is outright wrong, as image material has proven.

Hylians don't hear the voices of the gods during OoT

I've got an interesting translation coming up about that issue...

There's no precedent for this.

There is:

When the Hero of Time was called to
embark on another journey and left the
land of Hyrule, he was separated from the
elements that made him a hero.

Link lost the Triforce of Courage because he abandoned Hyrule. Now go and find a precedence for "genetic pool" in Hyrule.

This is about trying to take away the most divine relic into another timeline, not about the Hylians losing an innate ability just because of a place change.

#89 Arturo

Arturo

    I swear this game is Adults Only!

  • ZL Staff
  • 3,356 posts
  • Location:Un lugar de la Mancha
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 March 2008 - 08:50 PM

I splitted the thread. Sorry if you are not too happy with the way I did it but I needed to cut somewhere...
The TMC discussion goes her. Keep on topic people... ^^

#90 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 30 March 2008 - 11:48 AM

I forgot to address this from pages ago:

A few things fit ALttP's map there... The swamp area could actually be the future Lost Woods. This might be unintentional, but the other story elements in TMC certainly aren't.
Edit: I'm an idiot for only just realising this, because I've looked at this map loads of times, but the Minish Woods might turn into the somewhat foresty southern area of ALttP's Hyrule (which isn't really in what we see of OoT's Hyrule), and then the desert would be to the west somewhere. Obviously Lake Hylia fits, so this might work better than I thought. The graveyard fits with ALttP, too. >_>


Mount Crenel is in roughly the same place as Death Mountain
The Graveyard is in roughly the same place as in ALttP
Veil Falls seems to be Zora's Fountain/Domain, judging from the fact that it's Hyrule's water source
Lake Hylia is in about the same place it's in in FSA
Hyrule Castle is obviously about the same
The Wind Ruins highly resemble the Light World area of the region in which the Swamp Palace is found in ALttP
The Trillby Highlands and Western Wood seem to be the area south of Kakariko in ALttP
The Minish Woods, of course, obviously could be the forests where the village of the Blue Maiden is in FSA (which, since you put them in the Child timeline, might be the same forest as Kokiri Forest)
Lon Lon Ranch is in roughly the same place in both TMC and FSA




Copyright © 2021 Your Company Name