225 replies to this topic

[CID Farwin]

THE TIMELINE IS A LIE!

I fail to understand how people are able to get so bent out of shape over such trivial details; How I get so bent out of shape sometimes.

For the record, I still fail to see anything in this thread that states why TMC would go anywhere else but first other than "THE HAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH!" meaning, I've only seen attacking of proof of it being first, not any suggestions of it going anywhere else. Please, show me a good enough reason for it going somewhere else (not against it going first, but for it going somewhere else) instead of crying blasphemy. I'm starting to get sick of it.

[Raien]

For the record, I still fail to see anything in this thread that states why TMC would go anywhere else but first other than "THE HAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH!" meaning, I've only seen attacking of proof of it being first, not any suggestions of it going anywhere else. Please, show me a good enough reason for it going somewhere else (not against it going first, but for it going somewhere else) instead of crying blasphemy. I'm starting to get sick of it.

Well, such points supporting a post-TWW are being argued on the Zelda Universe forums as we speak. I've linked you straight to my post there because that way you get the points more easily, and my counterarguments as a nice bonus.

http://www.zeldauniv...528-post13.html

[Jumbie]

and he leaves at the end of the Oracles to return to Hyrule by boat.

Not quite right, he doesn't sail back to Hyrule from Labrynna's or Holodrum's shores - rather he sails off from Hyrule's shores to destination unknown, because we see Hyrule Castle in the background of the beach.

You can't really rely on Japanese names of places when we're speaking in English.

Eh, I find that statement a bit strange...

Am I correct that "the first adventure of Link" would also be a possible translation for the line in the ending?

You are. "Rinku no.." may be translated to either "Link's.." or "..of Link", as those are identical in meaning.

Besides, the 'Link's first adventure' line is a silly thing to base a whole theory on. Sure, it's THAT Link's first adventure, it has nothing to do with any later Link, because they're all seperate people.

Didn't you read all the posts in this thread? That point had been defeated by Impossible before you even made it...

[Impossible]

Thanks for the confirmation... I think that means it's not very specific. I don't know how the other European translations handle it, though, except for the French one... And French doesn't have a possessive form at all, so it's definitely "the first adventure of Link".

What I meant by that name comment is that Hebra Mountain was the Japanese name for Death Mountain. It's not anymore, and even in ALttP, it was also called Death Mountain, as well as in LoZ. It's not really a useful point. Mt. Crenel was deliberately chosen as a different name, and I'm sure that's the case in all versions of the game.

Here's one list of what is supposed to be the evidence for a post-TWW TMC placement.

• People called humans rather than Hylians. (They are definitely Hylians, which is evidence for pre-OoT.)
• Hyrule only very recently been unified for the first time in OoT, preventing TMC from coming before it. (Almost certainly NOT for the first time as this would contradict OoT, and it doesn't make sense if Hyrule wasn't unified.)
• Very different races in OoT and TMC. (TMC fits no better with FSA than with OoT in this respect. The absence of races is VERY easily explained.)
• Process of evolution works with TWW-TMC, but not with TMC-OoT. (Huh? This is what I get for using Sentient's arguments.)
• Knowledge of the Triforce is against TMC-OoT. (The only thing TMC suggests about knowledge of the Triforce is that it is, as always, known to the Royal Family. Triumph Forks is bullshit.)
• Enemies and items near identical to TWW, and very different from OoT. (Who cares? It's not plot evidence.)
• Hyrule is an island on a vast sea in TMC, which is unlikely to be so if TMC is pre-Flood. (There's no evidence Hyrule wasn't surrounded by sea in other games - FSA and ALttP have the same Hyrule, yet in ALttP it's not. There are references in other games to going to or from Hyrule by boat.)

Oh, and I disagree that it's Hyrule Castle in the background in the Oracles ending... Why would all the people from Labrynna and Holodrum suddenly be in Hyrule? They don't seem to be that close. Didn't Labrynna have a castle in it?

Of course, then the question is... Why aren't Zelda and Impa going back to Hyrule yet?

Edited by Impossible, 25 March 2008 - 08:01 PM.

[Raien]

A couple of points:

1) The line "Link's first adventure" is not important on its own; the following line "So, the story goes on as long as there is the Force's guidance." is much more evidential of an overreaching continuity because we know that "the story" is that of Link's adventures in other Zelda games.

2) We can't even be sure that the background to the Palace of Winds realistically depicts Hyrule as an island on an ocean. As I made the point below:

"I presume you say Hyrule is an island because the background to the Fortress of Winds shows an island on the ocean. But in motion, the background actually scrolls across the screen and loops; so the image of one island represents several different islands. And so if the Fortress of Winds is constantly moving, then the islands that we see are not going to be Hyrule. And if the Fortress of Winds is actually stationary, as the game suggests, then the background cannot be representative of Hyrule's size. Clearly the choice of a blue background was to differentiate it from the ground that Link could actually walk on, which on a traditional GBA screen can be difficult to see."

[Duke Serkol]

People called humans rather than Hylians. (They are definitely Hylians, which is evidence for pre-OoT.)

Hold on a sec, I must have missed something in the depths of this thread, what proves they are Hylians?
I'd actually love it if something did, because I too place MC before OoT, but as far as I could see, there were no definite indications in the game.

[Raien]

Hold on a sec, I must have missed something in the depths of this thread, what proves they are Hylians?
I'd actually love it if something did, because I too place MC before OoT, but as far as I could see, there were no definite indications in the game.

The long ears that every character possesses would be proof that they are Hylians. Yes, there are examples of non-Hylians with long ears, but when every human character in the game has long ears, like in OoT and TP, it's clear that this characteristic is meant to draw attention to the fact that these people are Hylians.

[Fyxe]

Didn't you read all the posts in this thread? That point had been defeated by Impossible before you even made it...

'Defeated'? Really? Maybe in your eyes Jumbie, but apparently not everyone necessarily believes you and Impossible's assumptive interpretation of an annoyingly vague line.

Oh, and I disagree that it's Hyrule Castle in the background in the Oracles ending... Why would all the people from Labrynna and Holodrum suddenly be in Hyrule? They don't seem to be that close. Didn't Labrynna have a castle in it?

You see Zelda on the castle balcony during the same sequence, and the design of the castle is pretty much identical to it's appearance in Ocarina of Time. It's quite blatantly the same castle.

So some of the people from Labrynna and Holodrum visit Hyrule, is that really that hard to imagine? It's not like every bit of the ending is set in Hyrule anyway, just the bits with the castle really.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of the Oracles, isn't there a bit of text in TMC that largely implies that it occurs after the Oracle games, due to the appearance of Din, Nayru and Farore?

[LionHarted]

• People called humans rather than Hylians. (They are definitely Hylians, which is evidence for pre-OoT.)
• Hyrule only very recently been unified for the first time in OoT, preventing TMC from coming before it. (Almost certainly NOT for the first time as this would contradict OoT, and it doesn't make sense if Hyrule wasn't unified.)
• Very different races in OoT and TMC. (TMC fits no better with FSA than with OoT in this respect. The absence of races is VERY easily explained.)
• Process of evolution works with TWW-TMC, but not with TMC-OoT. (Huh? This is what I get for using Sentient's arguments.)
• Knowledge of the Triforce is against TMC-OoT. (The only thing TMC suggests about knowledge of the Triforce is that it is, as always, known to the Royal Family. Triumph Forks is bullshit.)
• Enemies and items near identical to TWW, and very different from OoT. (Who cares? It's not plot evidence.)
• Hyrule is an island on a vast sea in TMC, which is unlikely to be so if TMC is pre-Flood. (There's no evidence Hyrule wasn't surrounded by sea in other games - FSA and ALttP have the same Hyrule, yet in ALttP it's not. There are references in other games to going to or from Hyrule by boat.)

1) Long ears =/= Hylian. ALttP has people with long ears, but they are referred to as descendants of Hylians, not Hylians.
2) How would it contradict OoT? (Present evidence, please, not just your statements.)
3) I've never seen this argument before, unless you're referring to the absence of [sea] Zoras, which have been seen in every other pre-FS game. Also consider that the source of Hyrule's water (Veil Falls) is seen and that there are no Zoras.
4) There are no land Octos in any of the 3D games except for PH (Big Octos notwithstanding). They deferred to water-bound octoroks in all of them, and TP doesn't have them at all.
5) "Triumph Forks" is a more concrete reference to a game than an image that draws from old official art.
6) Zoras > Ritos is supposedly significant enough to be plot evidence, so why can't the enemy differences be?
7) Hyrule was "surrounded by mountains and forests" before TWW. There is no official art world map for ALttP to compare to FSA's.

"I presume you say Hyrule is an island because the background to the Fortress of Winds shows an island on the ocean. But in motion, the background actually scrolls across the screen and loops; so the image of one island represents several different islands. And so if the Fortress of Winds is constantly moving, then the islands that we see are not going to be Hyrule. And if the Fortress of Winds is actually stationary, as the game suggests, then the background cannot be representative of Hyrule's size. Clearly the choice of a blue background was to differentiate it from the ground that Link could actually walk on, which on a traditional GBA screen can be difficult to see."

Then they could have used the mountain/forest/river backdrop of Mount Crenel.

Edited by LionHarted, 26 March 2008 - 01:17 PM.

[Raien]

1) Long ears =/= Hylian. ALttP has people with long ears, but they are referred to as descendants of Hylians, not Hylians.

Most people in ALTTP did not possess long ears, which leaves us with the conclusion that those people who did have long ears have simply inherited it more strongly from their Hylian ancestors. All the human characters in TMC possess long ears, which strongly implies that these people are meant to be Hylians. Likewise, all the characters in TP's Castle Town had long ears, which leads us to deduce they are Hylians, but the people of Ordon (which is not Hyrule proper) do not have long ears so we can deduce that these are the first "Hylian descendants".

5) "Triumph Forks" is a more concrete reference to a game than an image that draws from old official art.

If the developers wanted to tell the players "This game goes after TWW", they would have placed the references where the player could actually access them. There is no official source for the Hylian alphabet; there is no way that anyone without knowing the alphabet would be able to find the reference. And given that the alphabet in TMC was based on Japanese, knowing the alphabet would require knowing Japanese as well. 99.9% of players would not be able to find this reference during play; it's quite obvious that the developers were not trying to implicate a timeline placement through it. It makes as much sense as saying the developers would deliberately place timeline implications in the game's text dump, where no one except the dedicated fans would find it.

At least artwork comparisons, as unrealistic the connections might be, are something which more people have access to. And if that wasn't enough, the fog around the Sacred Grove dissipates when Link removes the Master Sword, which was a clear connection to the same scene ALTTP's Lost Woods.

Then they could have used the mountain/forest/river backdrop of Mount Crenel.

The point is that the detailed mountain/forest/river backdrop might make it difficult for the player to distinguish between it and the floor on a traditional GBA screen. By making the background a stark sea blue, it's much easier to see where the floor is and where the background is.

Edited by jhurvid, 26 March 2008 - 04:10 PM.

[Showsni]

Hylians first knew of the Picori when they came and gave a hero the light force.

Proof, please? I can't see anything that stops the Minish being known of before they gave the Picori Blade and Light Force. Indeed, it's more likely they'd give powerful gifts to help friends, rather than to complete strangers...

[Jumbie]

Mt. Crenel was deliberately chosen as a different name, and I'm sure that's the case in all versions of the game.

To be correct, Mt Crenel is only the English name, everywhere else it's called a variation of Mt Gonguru. But never Death Mountain, that's true.
The mountain does not even share the characteristic shape or ring of clouds of Death Mountain, nor formations such as Spectactle Rock, nor any other implications that it could be Death Mountain. So it's got lava inside, so what? In TP there is a great cavern of lava very far from DM (near Eldin Bridge), too.

Oh, and I disagree that it's Hyrule Castle in the background in the Oracles ending...
Didn't Labrynna have a castle in it?

No, Queen Ambi's castle only existed in the past age. And since Holodrum never had one, they couldn't possibly have used one image to represent both countries anyway.

Why would all the people from Labrynna and Holodrum suddenly be in Hyrule? They don't seem to be that close.

Because the people on the beach are Hyruleans. The scenes right before that, with the Maku Tree and the dancing troupe and whoever, still take place in Labrynna/Holodrum, whereas Link's embarking takes place back in Hyrule.

Of course, then the question is... Why aren't Zelda and Impa going back to Hyrule yet?

Question answered

You see Zelda on the castle balcony during the same sequence, and the design of the castle is pretty much identical to it's appearance in Ocarina of Time. It's quite blatantly the same castle.

The image of the OoT-looking castle is shown in the intro, while I was referring to the castle silhouette in the background of the beach scene.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of the Oracles, isn't there a bit of text in TMC that largely implies that it occurs after the Oracle games, due to the appearance of Din, Nayru and Farore?

You mean the figurine entries of Din, Nayru and Farore, well, they don't imply any timeline placement at all. It just says Nayru comes from a long line of priestesses from a foreign land. That family line may have existed since the beginning of time (with the Oracles possibly being avatars of the three Goddesses) up to the point in distant future when the Oracle games take place, so no problems regardless if you place TMC before or after Oracles.
Their figurine entries are a nice hint at Capcom making both TMC and Oracles, without any visible timeline statement though.

Also consider that the source of Hyrule's water (Veil Falls) is seen and that there are no Zoras.

Not yet.

Zoras > Ritos is supposedly significant enough to be plot evidence, so why can't the enemy differences be?

Enemies are gameplay devices more than anything, whereas NPC races are parts of the plot.
They certainly implement the enemies looking at which do best in the respective game's engine, not paying attention to timeline logic.
Want to know why there are no land Octoroks in OoT? Because the Deku Scrubs took that place. You can see in OoT's beta screenshots that land Octoroks were being tried out at one point, but were probably regarded too funny-looking later on. That's the reason.

Hyrule was "surrounded by mountains and forests" before TWW. There is no official art world map for ALttP to compare to FSA's.

Throughout all ages, Hyrule is surrounded by mountains and forests and then by the sea. All in one.

Then they could have used the mountain/forest/river backdrop of Mount Crenel.

No, that wouldn't have looked as high up as necessary.

Likewise, all the characters in TP's Castle Town had long ears, which leads us to deduce they are Hylians, but the people of Ordon (which is not Hyrule proper) do not have long ears so we can deduce that these are the first "Hylian descendants".

Or just common humans who have always coexisted with Hylians.

Edited by Jumbie, 26 March 2008 - 03:29 PM.

[Impossible]

1) The line "Link's first adventure" is not important on its own; the following line "So, the story goes on as long as there is the Force's guidance." is much more evidential of an overreaching continuity because we know that "the story" is that of Link's adventures in other Zelda games.

Hm, I thought I pointed this out already, I'm not sure. You're right, it's the combination of the two lines that makes it certain. I think I mentioned this with respect to the English version's "as long as the light force echoes throughout the ages". That tells us that this is about all Links, the entire story, not just one Link.

2) We can't even be sure that the background to the Palace of Winds realistically depicts Hyrule as an island on an ocean.

I noticed something about this in TMC yesterday, so replaying it is doing us some good here. At the top of Mt. Crenel, there's also a background, but it only seems to show mountains and rivers, not ocean. That said, I couldn't see it clearly. Someone ripped the image of the Palace of Winds background, right? So we should be able to get this one, too. That only seems fair. If Hyrule were an island, that direction would all be ocean. Oh, and I noticed this before I read the posts where you're talking about it. >_> Does anyone have pictures of the two backgrounds?

jhurvid is right, by the way. They could have just reused the Mt. Crenel background, they didn't because they wanted to make it easier for the player. Not because they were trying to hide some kind of mega timeline implication there that proves everything. We don't even know how high up the Palace of Winds is.

Also, while I would be prepared to discount anything that's only on a figurine (the Goron figurine contradicts what we know no matter where you put TMC), the Armos being created by the Minish is actually relevant to the game, something I'd completely forgotten. One of the newsletters calls them "Armos, fabled creations of the Minish". It's also important because a Minish tells you how to get past an Armos that has been turned off: "These soldier statues here were built by the Minish ages ago to help humans. It's kind of a secret, but there's a switch inside that turns them on or off." That means it's definitely not a mistake.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of the Oracles, isn't there a bit of text in TMC that largely implies that it occurs after the Oracle games, due to the appearance of Din, Nayru and Farore?

...Yeah, and it also has Malon, Talon, Carlov, Anju and Tingle. THEY'RE CALLED CAMEOS. They could just as easily be the ancestors of the ones we know, anyway. TMC can't possibly be after the Oracles, because the Oracles must be after ALttP, and FSA must be before it.

1) Long ears =/= Hylian. ALttP has people with long ears, but they are referred to as descendants of Hylians, not Hylians.

...It's completely different when EVERY PERSON has long ears. The generic NPCs in ALttP and FSA don't have long ears. Long ears mean Hylian blood, and if EVERYONE is still Hylian, then there can't have been anyone who came and diluted the bloodline yet. Or there would be people with shorter ears. Especially after TWW, as you suggest, where most people don't have long ears. Just drop this one goddamn point, there's no way they aren't Hylian, based on everything we know from throughout the series. You can't win on this.

2) How would it contradict OoT? (Present evidence, please, not just your statements.)

Because the Temple of Time, and the seals on the Master Sword and the Sacred Realm, suggest an ancient alliance. There are plenty of reasons why Hyrule could have been unified before, too. The point doesn't hold up.

3) I've never seen this argument before, unless you're referring to the absence of [sea] Zoras, which have been seen in every other pre-FS game. Also consider that the source of Hyrule's water (Veil Falls) is seen and that there are no Zoras.

I didn't write that. The absence of races doesn't mean anything. Actually, I find it interesting that there aren't evil Zoras, because like land Octoroks, the 2D Zelda games ALWAYS have them. Maybe they were trying to suggest that Zoras weren't evil yet? They're just outside of the Hyrule we see.

4) There are no land Octos in any of the 3D games except for PH (Big Octos notwithstanding). They deferred to water-bound octoroks in all of them, and TP doesn't have them at all.

WHO CARES? Seriously. Not evidence. 2D Zelda games have land Octoroks. You can't seriously suggest this was a conscious story decision, but the ending and the cap and "first adventure" and Hylians weren't.

5) "Triumph Forks" is a more concrete reference to a game than an image that draws from old official art.

LOL, no, and Triumph Forks is meaningless for far too many reasons that I've already pointed out. It's not concrete, it's more like a goddamn liquid. Also, ever play TMC? The Triforce and Hylian crest are both all over Hyrule Castle, and the town to some extent as well. Meanwhile, the soldiers claim to have no idea what the light force is or what it looks like.

6) Zoras > Ritos is supposedly significant enough to be plot evidence, so why can't the enemy differences be?

What's Zoras > Ritos "evidence" of? It's something we're told in the game, anyway. It's not a fucking graphical difference, it's a plot element. Enemies don't mean anything, they're only gameplay.

7) Hyrule was "surrounded by mountains and forests" before TWW. There is no official art world map for ALttP to compare to FSA's.

Where the hell is your evidence for this?

And I doubt how accurate FSA's map can be, considering it omits crucial things that we KNOW exist based on other games. It might just be a border that means nothing.

There is no possible interpretation under which the evidence more strongly supports a placement for TMC besides pre-OoT. It's insane to accept Triumph Forks, enemies, art style, cameos, etc. which have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PLOT OF THE GAME, let alone the timeline, but to ignore all the evidence directly relating to the plot and timeline. That's called bias, and nothing else. It's even worse than when Lex is using individual game plot details as part of the timeline, this stuff isn't even plot.

Edited by Impossible, 26 March 2008 - 07:33 PM.

[Fyxe]

...Yeah, and it also has Malon, Talon, Carlov, Anju and Tingle. THEY'RE CALLED CAMEOS. They could just as easily be the ancestors of the ones we know, anyway. TMC can't possibly be after the Oracles, because the Oracles must be after ALttP, and FSA must be before it.

You are readily becoming the most disagreeable person in this forum. I was talking about a specific line that I vaguely remember POSSIBLY implying that TMC would have to be a sequel. If anyone could find what I'm talking about, that'd be great, ta.

Also... While I'm all for an after-ALttP placement of the Oracle games, why the hell must FSA be before it? Is there any proof whatsoever for that? I sure can't think of anything.

[Impossible]

The line you're talking about doesn't exist. I'm disagreeable because you're mistaken? The Oracles are shown, and their figurines say that they're descended from a long line... So? Their descendants in a thousand years time will also be descended from a long line. In any case, it's a cameo. It's no more evidence than Tingle's appearance is.

...You can't think of evidence for FSA being before ALttP? REALLY? It's... not very hard. Pretty much everything shared between those games follows the FSA -> ALttP structure. Ganon getting the trident (this can't be after ALttP), the Forest of Light becoming the Lost Woods, various places changing their function or people going from one place to another... We know that FSA is setting up for ALttP. FSA also has Gorons and Gerudo, ALttP has all the exact same locations and those races are gone.

Besides, there are next to no Hylians after ALttP, TMC certainly isn't there.

[LionHarted]

The point about the Oracles has nothing to do with the fact that they\'re of a long line; more to do with the fact that the Oracles have left their respective lands to settle down in Hyrule.

Fyxe: The Kakariko thieves referenced in ALttP are evicted from Kakariko Village in FSA and are seen in the Lost Woods at the end of the game, where they are in ALttP.

jhurvid: Even the characters with long ears in TP refer to Hylians as an ancient race.

Also, I'm pretty sure the style of the developers of such things (as far as they've been interviewed) has been to offer moments of "secret recognition" to dedicated players.

And let's face it, the timeline exists for dedicated players and fans of the series as a whole.

As for artwork comparisons:

-TWW Link was based off the design for Oracle Link. (Stated by Miyamoto) TWW-Oracles connection?
-FS/A and TMC Link share the design for TWW Link. TWW-FS games connection?
-A transparent seal was cast around the Four Sword at the end of FSA that is identical in shape and it appears in size to a similar seal on Ganon in official art for ALttP. FSA seal = ALttP seal?
-TMC\'s Mount Crenel is depicted as a two-peak mountain just like Death Mountain, whereas Death Mountain in OoT and TP is depicted as a single peak. Death Mountain in OoT and TP is also active, while it is inactive in every other game. Crenel = Death Mountain? (On top of this, Crenel is described as the home of the Gorons)

On the other hand, TP is actually the game that departed MOST in the art department from other games, with most of its influences in that area coming from OoT.

And yet we can't count all art homages as storyline references. We can only count story elements as part of the story.

At the top of Mt. Crenel, there's also a background, but it only seems to show mountains and rivers, not ocean.

I thought it'd been established that there was stuff north of the Death Mountain region, and that this was where FS takes place?

jhurvid is right, by the way. They could have just reused the Mt. Crenel background, they didn't because they wanted to make it easier for the player.

As I recall, jhurvid's original argument involved the blue background vs. a background made up mostly of clouds. He's apparently since modified his argument so that any background but the blue background apparently would interfere with the visibility of the platforms.

ARMOS: The Armos being made by the Minish for the Wind Tribe is relevant to the Armos made for the Wind Tribe, not those in the Tower of the Gods, on Death Mountain, in the Eastern Palace region, in Termina, on PH's islands, or in the Temple of Time.

Even beyond that, we don't know when the Minish originally appeared, only that at some point a group of them descended to give humans the Four Sword/Picori Blade and Light Force.

CAMEOS:

Tingle has already recruited his lackeys.
Beedle has settled down and opened up a shop, something he expresses the desire to do in TWW.
The Oracles have left their respective lands to settle down together in Hyrule.
The Gorons no longer live in the mountains.

All of these are references to sidestories from other games.

LONG EARS:

Hylian
Hylian woman
Lots of people with long ears
Flute boy with long ears

Also, Bug-catching net boy\'s sprite definitely indicates long ears. Same with, wait everybody else.

So can you stop completely making things up that are actually certifiably and demonstrably false, please?

TWW LONG EARS:
Actually, I've checked recently, and most people do have long ears. I apologize for wasting your time with that argument to begin with way back when.

Because the Temple of Time, and the seals on the Master Sword and the Sacred Realm, suggest an ancient alliance.

Do you argue that the TP sages are Hylian?

Because if you do, then your point falls apart, as they are the ancient sages responsible for all of these things, and there need not be any alliance whatsoever.

Actually, I find it interesting that there aren't evil Zoras

I wasn't referring to evil Zoras, if you were actually reading my post.

WHO CARES? Seriously. Not evidence. 2D Zelda games have land Octoroks.

And PH.

the ending and the cap and "first adventure" and Hylians weren\'t.

1) What about the ending?
2) Link gets a hat in TP and TWW, too. What\'s your point? Bill Trinen saying the hat is supposed to be the first time Link gets a hat doesn\'t mean anything by itself, since Bill Trinen is also responsible for a number of mistranslations in TP.
3) "Link's first adventure\" doesn\'t have to refer to the series at large. It's the first of the Four Sword games, which Capcom has stated they never really made a connection to the Ganon or Triforce with, and guess what, outside of the other Four Sword games, this happens to be every game/Link in the series.
4) Long ears =//////= Hylian!

Also, ever play TMC? The Triforce and Hylian crest are both all over Hyrule Castle

They're all over TWW, too. What's your point?

Where the hell is your evidence for this?

"Long ago, there existed a kingdom where
a golden power lay hidden.

It was a prosperous land blessed with green
forests, tall mountains, and peace."

Obvious reference to:

"Long ago, in the beautiful
kingdom of Hyrule surrounded
by mountains and forests...

legends told of an omnipotent
and omniscient Golden Power
that resided in a hidden land."

And I doubt how accurate FSA\'s map can be, considering it omits crucial things that we KNOW exist based on other games. It might just be a border that means nothing.

What it does show can be assumed to be accurate.

And, no, it\'s not a meaningless border, as part of it is an actual gameplay area.

It\'s insane to accept Triumph Forks, enemies, art style, cameos, etc. which have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PLOT OF THE GAME, let alone the timeline, but to ignore all the evidence directly relating to the plot and timeline.

The plot of TMC has nothing to do with the timeline outside of the Four Sword games.

Edited by LionHarted, 27 March 2008 - 09:44 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

Long ears mean Hylian blood, and if EVERYONE is still Hylian, then there can't have been anyone who came and diluted the bloodline yet. Or there would be people with shorter ears.

Is that the only evidence there is for believing the people in MC are Hylian? (I'm not going to tell you whether that's enough or not, it's up to you if you to call it satysfying or not. I'd just like to know if you got any further proof that would indicate this).

[Impossible]

That's all the evidence necessary. The "most people" in FSA and ALttP are the people in Kakariko Village and other places with NPCs. Ordinary people are not Hylian. In TMC, EVERYONE is Hylian. Just think of this with some kind of common sense here. Long ears definitely mean Hylian blood. But they can't be part Hylian, or there would also be non-Hylians among them who are diluting the blood. If it's nothing but long ears giving birth to more long ears, they can only be Hylian. This is IMPOSSIBLE after TWW. Flat out impossible, most people in TWW do NOT have long ears.

No, we can't, as even the characters with long ears in TP refer to Hylians as an ancient race.

It seems like all you're doing lately is referring to evidence you claim exists all over the place, without any actual quote or real point. Probably because once we see these things, we'll know you're full of it and deliberately twisting the meaning.

Really? I'm pretty sure the style of the developers of such things (as far as they've been interviewed) has been to offer moments of "secret recognition" to dedicated players.

And let's face it, the timeline exists for dedicated players.

No, what they say is that they put in Easter eggs and references that have nothing to do with the game itself. Any timeline evidence is going to be clearly evident. You can't seriously suggest all the reasons to place TMC after TWW are "hidden", even though the reasons for TMC to be first are in plain sight for everyone to see. Your whole idea is nonsense.

Here's my counterargument to the Triumph Forks bullshit from my in-progress timeline document.

One rather annoying criticism of placing TMC first comes from a supposed reference to TWW in TMC. In the library, it is possible to see the names of various books on the shelves. One of these is called “Triumph Forks”, referring to the erroneous name used in relation to the Triforce in TWW, where the legend is barely known. Somehow, this has been twisted into definitive evidence of a post-TWW placement, despite all the many other points to the contrary. But to start with, it’s not a part of the actual plot of the game, meaning that it’s already too minor to prove anything on its own, and it was put there with absolutely no regard for the story. It’s not given ANY context, either, so for all we know Triumph Forks was a term that existed in Hyrule long before, maybe in a period when the Triforce wasn’t well known to the public. Or it could be talking about something else entirely, since the Triforce isn’t mentioned. For that matter, Triumph Forks is only written in Hylian text, which must be translated to Japanese and then English. If the developers were really trying to indicate a timeline placement, then they wouldn't show it in an obscure fictional writing that no one but dedicated timeline theorists would see, without any significance given to it in the plot. And with neither context nor story relevance, it pretty much remains an Easter egg. That’s not exactly something that can combat TMC’s very clear ending, which is most certainly part of the game’s story. Triumph Forks aren’t, and the Triforce isn’t. This point means nothing. There’s evidence for the pre-OoT placement that is much more deliberate, in context, and part of the story.

It’s ridiculous to suggest that the Triforce was unknown in TMC the way it is in TWW, anyway. The Triforce is EVERYWHERE in TMC, particularly all over Hyrule Castle and on the royal crest. I think it’s safe to assume that as long as Hyrule is around, the Triforce is known to some extent. Knowledge of the Sacred Realm and the Triforce is passed down through the royal family, it can’t be unknown. You can’t separate the Triforce from Hyrule. It may not be a part of TMC’s story, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t known.

Both in real world and in-game contexts, the evidence doesn't work. It WASN'T added for that purpose, and in the story of the game it makes no sense.

And yet we can't count all art homages as storyline references. We can only count story elements as part of the story.

LOL

I think it's times like this when you prove that you're just a troll.

[Duke Serkol]

Is that the only evidence there is for believing the people in MC are Hylian? (I'm not going to tell you whether that's enough or not, it's up to you if you to call it satysfying or not. I'd just like to know if you got any further proof that would indicate this).

That's all the evidence necessary.

As I was saying, I did not mean to ask if you deem this sufficient or not, just if it is the only evidence or not.
But I assume your answer may be read as a yes, that there is no other evidence.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 26 March 2008 - 09:55 PM.

[Raien]

The Kakariko thieves referenced in ALttP are evicted from Kakariko Village in FSA and are seen in the Lost Woods at the end of the game, where they are in ALttP.

Actually, the thieves weren't evicted. The thieves were put in prison to stop them from stealing, according to the man who built the holding pen.

Such as?

*double-checks*

Alright, I made a mistake. All the characters in ALTTP that have short hair, also have long ears.

No, we can't, as even the characters with long ears in TP refer to Hylians as an ancient race.

Where? And is it in the context of an ancient and deceased race, or is someone just saying the Hylians have been around since the creation of Hyrule (which is true, no matter who speaks it)?

Really? I'm pretty sure the style of the developers of such things (as far as they've been interviewed) has been to offer moments of "secret recognition" to dedicated players.

Yes, but for goodness sake, apply reason. I'm sure there are fans dedicated enough to open the game's text dump, but the developers would not realistically place timeline references there. The developers know that there is a dedicated fanbase, but they're also going to take into account that the majority of this dedicated fanbase are not going to have access to the Hyrulian alphabet or be able to speak Japanese. Thus, they're not going to place timeline references there in that way.

And yet we can't count all art homages as storyline references. We can only count story elements as part of the story.

So, art similarities are timeline references, but art homages are not?

[Impossible]

Alright, I made a mistake. All the characters in ALTTP that have short hair, also have long ears.

Really? When I looked, I didn't see this at all. The ears aren't very clear, at least compared to Link's, or to anyone in TMC. They could easily be normal ears, and we're told that most of the people in ALttP aren't Hylian.

[Raien]

Really? When I looked, I didn't see this at all. The ears aren't very clear, at least compared to Link's, or to anyone in TMC. They could easily be normal ears, and we're told that most of the people in ALttP aren't Hylian.

Well, in ALTTP, the characters' long ears all curve upwards to a point, whereas in OoT and afterwards, the long ears pointed outwards. Sometimes though, the points aren't visible until the characters turn sideways. And the characters need to have short hair.

Edited by jhurvid, 26 March 2008 - 10:04 PM.

[Impossible]

Zelda has long hair, and her ears stick out of them. So short hair isn't necessary. The maidens have hair that's very thick around the sides, so that actually does cover their ears entirely.


Link's ears are practically up with his hat. Very few people have ears like that, all I've confirmed are the flute boy and the known Hylian Sahasrahla.

We can definitely see some people who don't have long ears. There are people with visible ears, but we can't really tell if they're pointed or rounded most of the time. There are some people who definitely don't have pointed ears. There are people in ALttP I could see being partially Hylian, but we know for a fact that there are non-Hylians, they're a legendary race, and their blood has weakened. I doubt there are many true Hylians in ALttP, because of what the game itself tells us. We know from TP and TWW, one of which is definitely before ALttP, that there are many non-Hylian humans. If you really do want to argue that ALttP's people are Hylian, then you have to say it's after TP, because almost nobody in TWW has long ears. TP at least has many part Hylians and probably pure Hylians.

Edit: I'm also going to say that these two are not Hylian. And also that this is a ridiculous tangent that has little to do with TMC and we're over analysing it. >_<

Edited by Impossible, 26 March 2008 - 10:37 PM.

[LionHarted]

Actually, the thieves weren't evicted. The thieves were put in prison to stop them from stealing, according to the man who built the holding pen.

In any case, they are no longer there.

All the characters in ALTTP that have short hair, also have long ears.

More accurately any ears we see in ALttP on humans are long ears.

Where? And is it in the context of an ancient and deceased race, or is someone just saying the Hylians have been around since the creation of Hyrule (which is true, no matter who speaks it)?

Shad refers to the Hylians in third person, as though he's not a part of the race, and he has long ears. He makes absolutely no indication that he's talking about his own people. When referring to themselves, the Gorons and Zoras always clue

SHAD:
"Yes, according to legend, Hyrule was made by the Hylians, who, as we all know,
are the closest race to the gods... But also according to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to the
gods, and some say THESE creatures made the Hylians."

All of the references made to Hylians refers to them as "the Hylians" (3rd person) and all of them to ancient legends and events. Each of the other races at least has one instance in which its members identify themselves as part of that race.

Of course, this is the English, so it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Really? I'm pretty sure the style of the developers of such things (as far as they've been interviewed) has been to offer moments of "secret recognition" to dedicated players.

Thus, they're not going to place timeline references there in that way.

But developer interviews that are just as accessible are the Word of God?

[Impossible]

I think this is starting to get us WAY off the actual point of this, which is that TMC has to be before TWW. The Hylian situation makes that certain. And ALttP (from the Japanese version) says:

Long before now, a people called the Hylians prospered in this land...

If the people in Kakariko were Hylian, she wouldn't say that. And also...

It is said that the Hylians could manipulate mysterious powers. The Seven Sages were also like that.

But, over the long years, the Hylian blood has faded, and even we descendants of the Seven Sages do not have strong powers.

If you look through the text, there are several other references to Hylians in the past tense, and only their descendants exist now. The people in TMC are Hylians, not merely Hylian descendants. Otherwise there would be people without Hylian blood living in Hyrule. Hylians are clearly MUCH more prominent than in TWW.

More accurately any ears we see in ALttP on humans are long ears.

Not true, there are some rounded ears, and there are also people whose ears we would be able to see if they were long.

Nothing about that line in TP means that the Hylians don't exist now. They don't say that the Hylians are purely a thing of the past, or talk about being descendants of Hylians. We would talk in exactly the same way about God creating humans.

Edit: Ooh, let me try one.

Yes, according to legend, America was made by the Americans, who, as we all know,
are the closest race to God... But also according to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to
God, and some say THESE people made the Americans."

I'd suggest that ONLY an American would say that, if anything. You can talk about your own race's history in the third person. However, you can't do it if you say that there USED TO be Americans and that American blood has faded, and that Americans, when they existed, were said to be able to do something or other.

Edited by Impossible, 26 March 2008 - 11:00 PM.

[Jumbie]

We can definitely see some people who don't have long ears. There are people with visible ears, but we can't really tell if they're pointed or rounded most of the time. There are some people who definitely don't have pointed ears. There are people in ALttP I could see being partially Hylian, but we know for a fact that there are non-Hylians, they're a legendary race, and their blood has weakened.

AOL!!!

because almost nobody in TWW has long ears.

Hah, that's a very good joke. Could you do me the favour of searching TWW artwork/screenshots showing round-eared people?
Actually wait, I can disclose to you right away the only 5 humans in TWW who do *not* have Hylian ears:
- on Outset Island, the mother of the two boys
- those said two boys
- the figurine-lover in Carlov's gallery
- and the teacher on Windfall Island.

Those are the only non-Hylian humans in TWW, everyone else has long and pointed ears.
Now, don't try to claim these pointed ears were shorter than the pointed ears in OoT/TP, because otherwise I'll have to scream:
TMC!!!

Shad refers to the Hylians in third person, as though he's not a part of the race, and he has long ears. He makes absolutely no indication that he's talking about his own people. When referring to themselves, the Gorons and Zoras always clue

SHAD:
"Yes, according to legend, Hyrule was made by the Hylians, who, as we all know,
are the closest race to the gods... But also according to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to the
gods, and some say THESE creatures made the Hylians."

All of the references made to Hylians refers to them as "the Hylians" (3rd person) and all of them to ancient legends and events. Each of the other races at least has one instance in which its members identify themselves as part of that race.

Of course, this is the English, so it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I already posted the Japanese version of this quote.

It's a fact that in Japanese, people often talk about themselves without making it clear in the slightest. Want another example of that? Midna talking about the Shadow Clan as if she was unrelated to them, although she's just explained that she is one of them.
Therefore, we may well translate "the Hylians" into "we Hylians" without it being incorrect.

[Raien]

More accurately any ears we see in ALttP on humans are long ears.

Not true, as Impossible has recently shown.

Shad refers to the Hylians in third person, as though he's not a part of the race, and he has long ears. He makes absolutely no indication that he's talking about his own people. When referring to themselves, the Gorons and Zoras always clue.

An ancestor doesn't need to be of another race/tribe to be referred to in the third person. If an English historian referred to English people living hundreds of years ago, he would not refer to them as "us".

But developer interviews that are just as accessible are the Word of God?

The developers don't intend for players to rely on interviews to understand timeline placements; what we learn from them is only in addition to what the games tell us.

[Impossible]

I don't think it's true that most people in TWW are Hylian. If you compare their ears to Link's or Zelda's ears, the difference is pretty clear. Real Hylian ears in TWW go further outwards, this is evident on Link, Zelda, the King, the pirates, and what appear to be their ancestors and Zelda in a painting. At best, they're a little bit pointy because the people still have some Hylian blood (which is fairly believable). Some of them don't seem anything more than a little exaggerated due to the art style making them look best that way, but not pointed like the definite Hylians in TWW. It's actually specified that girls with long ears are being kidnapped. That means that even if most people in TWW have somewhat long or pointy ears, they're not AS long/pointy as the girls Ganon specifically chooses the kidnap. Their Hylian blood is much weaker, there must be some reason for their ears being distinguished like that. People would observe Tetra or Aryll and see that their ears are different to those of most NPCs. How would Ganon tell the difference, otherwist? The blood is also weaker in ALttP, where the people don't even consider themselves Hylian anymore.

In any case, there's definitely no argument that the people in TMC are humans and therefore it can't be before OoT. They can definitely be pure Hylian, explaining the lack of anything else, and their long ears means they most likely are Hylian, regardless of whether or not people in other games like ALttP are Hylian. And in ALttP's case, the game says they aren't and we have to believe it. TMC doesn't say people aren't Hylian, it just uses "human". So do other games, like TP.

Also, there are definitely signs of weakened Hylian blood and non-Hylians in TWW, TP and ALttP. There aren't in TMC, not that we've found yet. I'll keep looking as I play through the game.

Edited by Impossible, 26 March 2008 - 11:38 PM.

[SOAP]

People prefer to place TMC directly before FS for the same reason that people prefer to place FSA directly before ALTTP; better continuity. For the people who see FSA as the bridge between TWW and ALTTP, placing TMC at the beginning of the timeline doesn't make sense when you have to factor a flood into the continuity.

Convince people that FSA is not a bridge between TWW and ALTTP, and you can better convince people that TMC takes place at the beginning of the timeline.

AS similar FSA was to TWW, graphically at least, I just imagine FSA as being parallel to TWW in the split timeline, rather than it take place sometime after. In my mind, FSA is what TWW would've been if Hyrule was not lost to the flood and Zelda's family still ruled from Hyrule Castle. In TWW's backstory, no hero appeared and flooding Hyrule was the only way the Gods could defeat Ganondorf. In the child timeline, which had already diverged a great deal from the adult timeline as it is, a hero did appaer: TP Link. After FSA you could have ALttP as so forth so no I don't see much continuity break unless you place FSA after TWW, which can be done but it could just as easily fit after TP. Actually it can fit after any game that ends with Ganon dead but I'm inclined to place it after TP because the similarities between the Trident of Power and Midna's Trident when she goes all Shiva on Ganon.

Also, someone stated before that TMC could not take place before OoT because before then Hyrule was not a united nation. Hyrule wasn't a nation at all TMC. It was barely even a town. TMC seems to be a Hyrule far back in it's early settlement days and the surrounding areas.

Edited by SOAP, 27 March 2008 - 01:14 AM.

[Impossible]

In TMC, they've gone out of their way to give every single NPC visible long, pointy ears. They didn't do that in ALttP, and they obviously didn't have to because Hylians were a thing of the past. But in TMC, ears stick out of hair, aren't covered by hats, and are very distinct and deliberate looking. I know it's hard to compare across different games... That's why I say that TWW's NPCs have ears that look less pointy, in comparison to known Hylians and people Ganondorf believed look Hylian enough to be Zelda. Still, it seems like an intentional design choice, one that's not in any other 2D Zelda. They even go out sideways, like Link's and Zelda's ears do in TWW, but unlike most other people.

Edited by Impossible, 27 March 2008 - 03:05 AM.