225 replies to this topic

[Impossible]

Keep in mind that Veil Falls is pretty far from Death Mountain, which it shouldn't be if it's also Zora's Fountain. It's so far that the river goes straight into Lake Hylia, when it circulates Hyrule in other games. Even if it's the same water source, it really seems more like a different part of Hyrule...

[LionHarted]

It's so far that the river goes straight into Lake Hylia, when it circulates Hyrule in other games.

It does this in FSA, too...

[Impossible]

In FSA, Lake Hylia IS the source of Hyrule's water. In fact, based on its geographical position, I'd say it makes more sense as Zora's Fountain.

[LionHarted]

In FSA, Lake Hylia IS the source of Hyrule's water. In fact, based on its geographical position, I'd say it makes more sense as Zora's Fountain.

The Lake seems to be the body of water at the FOOT of the waterfall, not atop it.

[CID Farwin]

In FSA, Lake Hylia IS the source of Hyrule's water. In fact, based on its geographical position, I'd say it makes more sense as Zora's Fountain.

The Lake seems to be the body of water at the FOOT of the waterfall, not atop it.

And in ALttP it was at the foot of the waterfall.

[LionHarted]

And in ALttP it was at the foot of the waterfall.

Well, at the end of the winding river which has its source at the waterfall but sure.

[Impossible]

Two points on that...

Whether it's above the waterfall or below it, Lake Hylia is at the water's source, NOT at the end. It's at the end in OoT and ALttP. Also, I'm pretty sure the entrance to the Lake Hylia stage is at the upper, crater-like formation.

In both OoT and TP, Zora's Domain has a waterfall, and a large, lake-like area at the bottom.

[LionHarted]

Also, I'm pretty sure the entrance to the Lake Hylia stage is at the upper, crater-like formation.

Despite the fact that you're at the bottom of a waterfall at the beginning of the level?

As for your point about OoT and TP--neither of those were called "Lake Hylia."

Edited by LionHarted, 06 April 2008 - 12:58 AM.

[Impossible]

You're the one who makes logical jumps based on Hyrule's water source, don't criticise me. They aren't called Veil Falls, either, and that's the only one I think has reason to be a different location to the others. Lake Hylia is at the source of Hyrule's water. So is Zora's Domain. It makes perfect sense, and is backed up by the geography matching perfectly. Zora's Domain no longer exists in FSA's time, and has become a lake.

Lake Hylia's level entrance marker is definitely at the top area. The second level's entrance is at the bottom of the waterfall.

Edited by Impossible, 06 April 2008 - 03:06 AM.

[rayne85]

As for your point about OoT and TP--neither of those were called "Lake Hylia."

actually, they were

[Impossible]

He's talking about Zora's Domain.

[LionHarted]

You're the one who makes logical jumps based on Hyrule's water source, don't criticise me. They aren't called Veil Falls, either, and that's the only one I think has reason to be a different location to the others.

The falls themselves aren't called anything.

Lake Hylia is at the source of Hyrule's water.

Only in TMC and FSA, not in any other game. In other games, it's at the END of the river. In this game it's at the head of the river.

Zora's Domain no longer exists in FSA's time

Nice assumption.

Lake Hylia's level entrance marker is definitely at the top area. The second level's entrance is at the bottom of the waterfall.

In the actual level, you definitely don't start at the top area. You have to climb a cliff to get to the top of the waterfall.

[Impossible]

Is English not your first language? You seem to be really fucking good at completely ignoring someone's actual point in favour of your idiotic literal interpretation of the LEAST IMPORTANT WORDS IN A SENTENCE, and having no idea what the actual point is... Holy shit, that's EXACTLY how you treat the games themselves, too! I've made a breakthrough into Lex's psyche! But... why do you also never seem to know what your OWN point is? You just go with the flow and start fights over semantics.

The falls themselves aren't called anything.

Why the hell are you completely ignoring the point? Stop leading this in circles. Veil Falls is the name of the area where Hyrule's water flow begins. In OoT and TP, this is Zora's Domain. In FSA, this is Lake Hylia. We don't know if Veil Falls is the same as the rest, because TMC's map is so different and could be a different part of Hyrule. No such claim can be made about FSA.

Only in TMC and FSA, not in any other game. In other games, it's at the END of the river. In this game it's at the head of the river.

Yeah, and I'm only talking about TMC and FSA! That's my point, why would I be saying it's the beginning in other games? It's a different Lake Hylia. At least, in FSA, we can clearly see that it's exactly where Zora's Domain is in OoT. That's not an assumption, that's just obvious. It's the beginning of Hyrule's water flow, not its end. Exact same place, exact same purpose, and even their appearances can be reconciled, as both have a lake and a waterfall. Zora's Domain isn't there, or it's not relevant.

However, with TMC, Lake Hylia isn't the beginning of the water flow. It's just right next to the beginning, but the actual river flows somewhere completely different. It's not the source itself like Lake Hylia. And while FSA's Lake Hylia is right next to Death Mountain and exactly where we almost always see Hyrule's water flow begin, Veil Falls is nowhere near it and seems to be somewhere quite different.

In the actual level, you definitely don't start at the top area. You have to climb a cliff to get to the top of the waterfall.

I don't give a shit where you start. That's where the level is set, that's Lake Hylia, and that's the source of Hyrule's water. Just be glad for the sake of the Hyrulian people that there isn't a fatass Zora sitting in it at all times, presumably releasing his fecal matter into Hyrule's drinking water. At least, not anymore.

I wonder when we find out why TMC isn't first. I hope it has something to do with the snot-nosed kid.

[LionHarted]

Is English not your first language?

Are you here to debate, or ridicule people?

Veil Falls is the name of the area where Hyrule's water flow begins. In OoT and TP, this is Zora's Domain.

Yes, that's precisely correct. But, as you said, Zora's Domain doesn't exist in TMC, FSA, or ALttP.

TMC's map is so different and could be a different part of Hyrule. No such claim can be made about FSA.

TMC's map is different? Let me name the similarities to FSA/ALttP's maps.

There's a forest to the southeast. (FSA)
There's a volcanic mountain to the north where Gorons live/used to live. (FSA)
There's a graveyard nearby the mountain and nearby the castle. (ALttP)
There's a waterfall east of the mountain that's the source of Hyrule's water. (FSA, ALttP)
Lake Hylia is at the foot of this waterfall. (FSA)
There're swamp ruins to the far south. (ALttP)
Link's House is in the center of the map, and he actually has family. (ALttP)

The first four could actually be applied to OoT as well, but the following three are connections that don't exist between TMC's map and the maps of the 3D games. Additionally, it is interesting to note that you reach the graveyard in TMC by going through an area reminiscent of the Lost Woods, and this was the same prerequisite for reaching it in LoZ.

Yeah, and I'm only talking about TMC and FSA! That's my point, why would I be saying it's the beginning in other games?

Why is it the beginning in TMC, the end in OoT and TP, the beginning AGAIN in FSA, and the end AGAIN in ALttP?

Occam's Razor would have us have a less complicated picture of Hyrule's geography.

However, with TMC, Lake Hylia isn't the beginning of the water flow.

You've yet to prove that it is in FSA.

The lake could be the top of the waterfall, but it could just as well be the lake area beneath the waterfall. Since the area beneath the waterfall comprises the majority of the level, I'd go with the latter. Besides, having replayed it, you STILL don't ever get to the top of the falls. So the level doesn't even take place at that highest point to any degree.

Edited by LionHarted, 06 April 2008 - 10:01 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Are you here to debate, or ridicule people?

I've been wondering that too. Almost all of his posts have him personally insulting someone. It's why I dropped that other debate with him.

[Jumbie]

To be correct, the lake in which Jabu-Jabu swam is Zora's Fountain, the source of Zora's River. Zora's Domain is just the cave below that Fountain.

So, we see Zora's Fountain in OoT, ALttP, LoZ, arguably TMC, and in FSA (where it's called "Lake Hylia" for no reason).

 oot.jpg   111K   10 downloads  alttp.jpg   125.16K   11 downloads  fsa.jpg   130.85K   20 downloads
 tmc.jpg   257.93K   9 downloads  loz.jpg   128.94K   5 downloads

Edited by Jumbie, 06 April 2008 - 02:09 PM.

[LionHarted]

Note on the FSA map: we don't see the top of the waterfalls, for see, even the lake atop the highest point is at the foot of a waterfall.

And Zora's Fountain is called the source of Hyrule's water, not just Zora's River, although you could have meant this.

Edited by LionHarted, 06 April 2008 - 02:33 PM.

[Arturo]

Impossible, if you have nothing nicer to say, please shut up.

I love the map of FSA, where did you get those, Jumbie?

Edited by Arturo, 06 April 2008 - 05:04 PM.

[Jumbie]

I love the map of FSA, where did you get those, Jumbie?

On Ganon's Tower.

[Impossible]

There's a different between a lake near the foot of Hyrule's water source, and a lake that IS Hyrule's water source, something all the water runs directly through. TMC's map, without any manipulation, doesn't resemble any other maps. You're taking random points in isolation, but you're ignoring the fact that they don't fit at all. There's a mountain to the north, but it's to the west, not the east. Lake Hylia in FSA (and the equivalent in ALttP) isn't east of the mountain, it's south of it. There's isn't a swamp in ALttP's Hyrule. Lake Hylia isn't actually part of the flow of water throughout Hyrule, it's a completely separate area where the water diverges from Hyrule's water source, which is not Lake Hylia.

However, with TMC, Lake Hylia isn't the beginning of the water flow.

You've yet to prove that it is in FSA.

...This isn't something that needs to be "proven". It's a fact. It's a question with a yes or no answer, and the answer is yes. Lake Hylia is where Hyrule's water is before anywhere else in Hyrule. It's at the beginning of the flow.

Is English not your first language?

Are you here to debate, or ridicule people?

It seems like I'm the one who's here to actually try and accomplish something. Unlike you, I'm not here to debate nonsense that has no actual meaning or bearing on the timeline. Nor do I appreciate nonsense in response to valid points. And I have every right to get pissed off when someone is going to pull crap like that in my topic responding to my posts. What I said in my last post is an entirely valid assessment of your approach to both the Zelda games and timeline debates... You take EVERYTHING out of context, and that's the kind of response you can expect when you do that.

For example, I said that the entrance to the Lake Hylia stage in FSA was at the top part in that crater-like area, and so you started arguing that you actually enter the stage from a lower part and have to go up the cliff. WHO GIVES A DAMN? That wasn't my point, I was talking about the level marker on the map anyway. Why is it that when you're wrong, you just ignore the damn point and argue over semantics? That's not an acceptable method of timeline debating, and that's why I responded the way I did.

And I haven't attacked anyone else. I'm only hostile when I have to repeat myself, usually multiple times, because someone won't listen and won't acknowledge the other side of an argument. If MikePetersSucks is talking about the debate in this topic, it seems more like he's insulting me over accepting that he was wrong. He was being hostile as soon as he posted, so I think showing his mistakes with actual evidence was the least I could do.

[MikePetersSucks]

It seems like I'm the one who's here to actually try and accomplish something. Unlike you, I'm not here to debate nonsense that has no actual meaning or bearing on the timeline.

*Big ol' Irony Bomb.*

And I have every right to get pissed off when someone is going to pull crap like that in my topic responding to my posts.

You don't, however, have the right to speak to him in the way you did.

[Impossible]

Funny, you're the one who just made a post that had absolutely no bearing on timeline discussion. I didn't.

And do you see me participating in discussions that are completely meaningless? Even if I have an opinion on those things, I usually make brief comments and leave the rest to jhurvid or someone else. It's always LionHarted who is intent on leading an argument in circles.

All I want to do in this topic is talk about TMC, and you're not. Can we get back to that now?

Something I think is fairly likely is that the powerful life force in Zelda in PH is actually the light force - which is, itself, a concentrated source of life force. It's only a theory, but it's also the only explanation we have in the series for why Zelda's life force is so strong. This would mean that TMC's backstory happened before the flood, and probably before the timeline split... Which I think by extension would surely place TMC before then, too, because it's implied to be the same Hyrule, complete with the Minish, the portal to their world, the Picori Blade, and records relating to the light force and the events of that backstory.

...Not that the presence of races, major one-of-a-kind locations, swords, records or history has ever impacted on the post-TWW placement of any games before.

[LionHarted]

Something I think is fairly likely is that the powerful life force in Zelda in PH is actually the light force - which is, itself, a concentrated source of life force. It's only a theory, but it's also the only explanation we have in the series for why Zelda's life force is so strong.

Well, you already know my objection to this argument--people would then predate their own life force, which seems rather contradictory.

The idea that the Light Force is the source of Zelda's extra-powerful life force is more likely, but still unnecessary, I think. The Light Force was originally gifted to the hero who battled the monsters that threatened the world, so it seems more like yet another powerful counteracting agent for evil threats.

Edited by LionHarted, 07 April 2008 - 07:29 AM.

[Impossible]

Well, you already know my objection to this argument--people would then predate their own life force, which seems rather contradictory.

I never said anything even remotely along those lines in that post, try again. That was a theory I was playing around with before I'd even played PH, and I never meant to imply that light force was the same as life force - just the possibility that the scattered light force (following TMC) was actually what Bellum was after. I think it's much more likely, though, that the light force is simply a very powerful source of life force... Making that the reason for Zelda's strong life force in PH, because the rest of the light force was still passed down through her anestors. (I'm also doubtful that what Vaati had just vanished from existence.)

The Light Force was originally gifted to the hero who battled the monsters that threatened the world, so it seems more like yet another powerful counteracting agent for evil threats.

I don't care what you think it "seems like", TMC says that it's a source of limitless power, and Vaati uses some of it to amplify his own powers and transform. Power can be used for evil just the same as it can be for good, we've seen that with the Triforce. Light force, which I believe is just called force in the Japanese version, is basically exactly the same in concept as life force, so it's pretty logical to suggest that light force is made of life force.

It's unnecessary, but then, it's also unnecessary for the Mirror of Twilight and the Dark Mirror to be the same or even similar. So I guess it just depends on what fits your timeline.

[LionHarted]

I never said anything even remotely along those lines in that post, try again.

My mistake, I read "in Zelda" as "in the Zelda series."

That was a theory I was playing around with before I'd even played PH, and I never meant to imply that light force was the same as life force - just the possibility that the scattered light force (following TMC) was actually what Bellum was after.

I thought he was after the life force of the Ocean King?

(I'm also doubtful that what Vaati had just vanished from existence.)

I'd surmise that he still has it.

I don't care what you think it "seems like", TMC says that it's a source of limitless power, and Vaati uses some of it to amplify his own powers and transform. Power can be used for evil just the same as it can be for good, we've seen that with the Triforce. Light force, which I believe is just called force in the Japanese version, is basically exactly the same in concept as life force, so it's pretty logical to suggest that light force is made of life force.

I think it's pretty obvious that the light force is a source of life force--it's got the same physical form and properties.

It's unnecessary, but then, it's also unnecessary for the Mirror of Twilight and the Dark Mirror to be the same or even similar. So I guess it just depends on what fits your timeline.

I'd easily accept TMC as first if there was any reason it had to be. As of yet I think the environment of the game relates far too much to every game released at the time except OoT, so placing it in close proximity to OoT doesn't really make sense to me. The plot is rather open to interpretation, especially since gifts of evil-repelling swords and extraordinary magical abilities isn't exactly a new concept in the series.

[Impossible]

I think it's pretty obvious that the light force is a source of life force--it's got the same physical form and properties.

Good, so we agree. Now, why does Zelda have such a powerful life force in PH? Considering what you just said, isn't there one obvious answer that we've already been given? You're the one intent on connecting similar things in games all the time, from what I recall of... another currently progressing argument.

I'd easily accept TMC as first if there was any reason it had to be.

...There's no getting through to you, is there?

No, I think this is absolutely false. I think that no matter how many reasons there may be for TMC to be first, you won't accept it because you're dead set on your own theory as the only possibility, and can't see things from another perspective. Do you know what my basis for that is? It's the fact that there are already many, many reasons for TMC to be first, and no reasons for anything else. That doesn't matter to you now, and to suggest it ever will is probably a lie. You'll debate the timeline the way you choose, and nobody can stop you from doing that, even if they had a hundred pages of reasoned arguments.

Fun fact: I have a hundred pages of reasoned arguments for my timeline.

[LionHarted]

Good, so we agree. Now, why does Zelda have such a powerful life force in PH?

Because she's the freaking Princess of Destiny who wielded the Triforce of Wisdom?

As far as I know, she lost most of the light force to Vaati, and what little of it she had left was used in tandem with Ezlo's hat to restore the kingdom.

...There's no getting through to you, is there?

I said had to be.

I think that no matter how many reasons there may be for TMC to be first, you won't accept it because you're dead set on your own theory as the only possibility, and can't see things from another perspective.

Considering how many times I've changed my theory, that's kind of a silly thing to be accusing me of. One of those changes was that I removed TMC from being first. I can link you to my posts to confirm this, if you'd like.

But of course you'd never consider me reassessing facts as a possibility.

[Impossible]

Because she's the freaking Princess of Destiny who wielded the Triforce of Wisdom?

"Princess of Destiny"? Really? That's meaningful. (That's from OoT, by the way, from what I remember.) If that were the case, Link would also have been targeted just as much, since he had the ToC. There's absolutely no evidence that former possession of a Triforce piece has any bearing on life force. She doesn't have it anymore, so her life force is something else. There's no other reason why she would be born with so much life force.

As far as I know, she lost most of the light force to Vaati, and what little of it she had left was used in tandem with Ezlo's hat to restore the kingdom.

Zelda always seems to have some magical powers, though, Triforce piece or not, so maybe that's not true, especially in light of PH. She uses the light force to restore the kingdom, but that doesn't mean that using it also depletes it.

But of course you'd never consider me reassessing facts as a possibility.

Yeah, because I know what your current timeline is. Part of it is based on an unreliable quote from 1998, isn't it?

And you certainly didn't reassess the single/split timeline when TP came out, which was a pretty obvious mistake. If evidence THAT decisive wasn't enough, then no, absolutely nothing would convince you to change your mind. You would simply speculate to fill the gaps, until Aonuma confirmed it.

[Raien]

As I see it, the points raised in support of a post-TWW placement for TMC are numerous, but each individual point does not stand well in debate. I had the pleasure of reading through such points on Zelda Universe and successfully debating every one. Some points were raised which actually requires the post-TWW placement to be assumed, not vice versa.

And while the points raised in support of a pre-OoT placement are very few (I can think of two definite implications; the ending and the long ears), they are much easier to hold up in debate. I think at the end of the day, the few strong points are worth more than the numerous doubtful points.

[Mourngriever]

I don't know why people can't accept different possibilities for different placements.
Different people put more emphasis on different facts, different interviews, none of us can say what is more canon than something else. If Lionhearted agrees with the miyamoto interview, fair enough, if Impossible doesn't, fair enough. Why not agree that both are possible?
I don't know whether TMC is pre-OOT or post WW or whatever. Cause there's evidence for both. So accept that and move on. This debate will go nowhere.
One thing i don't agree with is getting insulted by someone from behind a computer screen. Though its been happening for years, you'd have thought we'd be used to it. People come on here to debate, not to flame.
Ive been theorising for years, im only 18 and already i feel too old for this.