1600 replies to this topic

[Atrus's Homeboy]

MikePetersSucks, on Oct 7 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

tvtropes

Well, there goes my night of sleep.

[Prime Blue]

I've learned a lot about romanization since the last time I posted here and...I guess it was meant to be "Talmina" after all. When transcribing words with a long vowel followed by an "r" into katakana, the "r" ("ru") is swallowed and replaced with a chōonpu (so "Termina" would be "ターミナ / Tāmina" instead of "タルミナ / Tarumina").

Another game in the series, Oracle of Seasons, actually uses something similar: The Tarm Ruins ("ターム遺跡"), which would probably be more accurately translated as "Term Ruins", picking up the theme to solve its puzzle.

[Average Gamer]

I'm currently having a discussion about Orca from TWW on ZU. In the English version of TWW, Orca's figurine description and Orca himself give conflicting explanations for why Orca quit being a traveling warrior. Could someone please translate the Japanese text to see if the apparent contradiction existed in the Japanese script as well?

Here are the quotes in English:

'Orca' said

Both my brother and I dreamt of learning
this technique in our youth. We worked so
hard to collect the crests...

But it took many long years and adventures
beyond count before we even approached
finding ten of them, and we both grew old...

'Figurine Description' said

Orca
Birthplace: Outset Island
Talent: Swordplay

In his younger days, Orca had hoped to be
a swordsman, but he suffered a serious
injury that ended that dream. He soon
returned to Outset and became a fisherman.
On a ledge on one wall of his house is a
memento from his days of training with a
blade. Orca is a lifelong bachelor.

Thanks in advance and, though it's eight days late, Happy New Year.

Edited by Average Gamer, 08 January 2010 - 02:57 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I don't get it, where's the contradiction?

[Average Gamer]

Orca himself makes it very clear that he quit being a traveling warrior due to age, whereas Orca's figurine description says that Orca quit being a traveling warrior due to an injury.

[MikePetersSucks]

Not really. He just say he grew old, not that it was the reason he quit. Maybe he suffered an injury that made him realize how old and out of steam he had become, and retired on that basis.

[Nerushi]

I found what I think is an interesting tidbit on Wikipedia. The Japanese one.

Quote

『ふしぎの木の実』は、カプコン制作。最初から3つのトライフォースが揃っており、ガノンが既に封印され、リンクがハイラル城に出入りできる立場にあり、ゼルダ姫とも面識がある世界観から、『神々のトライフォース』『夢を見る島』の後の話と推測される。当時発売された『64DREAM』等の雑誌では、『ふしぎの木の実』の情報として『神々のトライフォース』のリンクと同一人物と報じていた。『時のオカリナ』とは同名の別人と思われるツインローバがガノン復活に尽力し、最後はその身を捧げてガノンを召喚するも、トライフォースを宿したリンクに再び滅ぼされる。『夢を見る島』と『ふしぎの木の実』がどちらが前か後かははっきりしていない。しかし、『ふしぎの木の実』のエンディングにリンクが海へ出航するシーンが存在し、『夢をみる島』ではリンクが船で遭難するところから始まるため、『ふしぎの木の実』から『夢をみる島』へと物語が続いていると見る事もできる。

Anyway, the online translator is a bit confusing, but from what I can make out of it he/she, whoever wrote it, apparently interprets Link and Zelda as alredy being acquainted, although I guess that could be an personal interpretation. More imporantly, he cites an an magazine which apparently states an connection between Oracles Link and ALTTP Link ( That they're the same? )

Here is an online translation.

Quote

『Nut in Wonderland』 is Capcom Production. From the first three and the two have all the Triforce, Ganon has already been sealed, in a position to enter and leave the castle Hailar links from the view of the world I have met with Princess Zelda, Triforce gods 『Guide『 Island Dreams show presumably after the talk. 『64DREAM』 was released in the magazine and then, see the information 『nut in Wonderland』 Guide triforce gods were reportedly linked to the same person. Ocarina of Time 』and『 committed to revive the non-gadget Tsuinroba that someone else thought of the same name, and finally also devoted himself to summon the Ganon, the Triforce be destroyed again 宿Shita link. 『Island Dreams show in Wonderland and The nut is either before or after』 is not clear. But a slowly nuts in Wonderland scene 』sail to the sea there is a link to the ending, access the island to explore Dreams begins with a link to lost in the ship, the fruit of Illusion『 a 』from『 explore the island dream also show that the things that also followed the story to.

Err, so the online translation is not very reliable. But I think it would be somewhat interesting to see what is really said here.

Edited by Nerushi, 09 January 2010 - 04:01 PM.

[Average Gamer]

'MikePetersSucks', on 09 Jan 2010 - 7:23 PM, said:

Not really. He just say he grew old, not that it was the reason he quit.

Orca's implication that he became too old to continue traveling is quite blatant while the figurine description is written in a such a way that it sounds like he was crippled and had to quit.

[Arturo]

Ok guys, I have some kind of "mission" for you

I am playing Spirit Tracks right now (in Spanish, obviously), and was talking yesterday to Serkol because he asked me whether the origin of the trains is ever stated. I told him what I knew: that the Gods are explicitly said to have created the tracks and the train Link uses is as well of divine origin. That's why I assumed that the Gods gave humans the technology to make trains.

Yes, I am talking about Gods... Because what the English translation calls "Spirits of Good" are called Gods in Spanish. That's why I want to ask you how they are called originally in Japanese.

(Although it doesn't really matter whether they are Gods or Spirits because it seems clear they taught men how to make trains)

[Erimgard]

'Arturo', on 10 Jan 2010 - 1:08 PM, said:

Ok guys, I have some kind of "mission" for you

I am playing Spirit Tracks right now (in Spanish, obviously), and was talking yesterday to Serkol because he asked me whether the origin of the trains is ever stated. I told him what I knew: that the Gods are explicitly said to have created the tracks and the train Link uses is as well of divine origin. That's why I assumed that the Gods gave humans the technology to make trains.

Yes, I am talking about Gods... Because what the English translation calls "Spirits of Good" are called Gods in Spanish. That's why I want to ask you how they are called originally in Japanese.

(Although it doesn't really matter whether they are Gods or Spirits because it seems clear they taught men how to make trains)

Pretty sure it's Gods in the Japanese too. But there are a lot of different words for God in the Japanese. That's why the "Tower of the Gods" was translated to "Tower of Spirits" in the NoA version, probably to avoid confusion with WW's Tower of the Gods.

[MikePetersSucks]

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Orca's implication that he became too old to continue traveling is quite blatant while the figurine description is written in a such a way that it sounds like he was crippled and had to quit.

When people grow old, they become more likely to be injured in crippling ways. When people are crippled by injuries, they usually link it to their unsettling age. Come on, dude, I know you're capable of connecting dots.

Quote

I am playing Spirit Tracks right now (in Spanish, obviously), and was talking yesterday to Serkol because he asked me whether the origin of the trains is ever stated. I told him what I knew: that the Gods are explicitly said to have created the tracks and the train Link uses is as well of divine origin. That's why I assumed that the Gods gave humans the technology to make trains.

Nothing in the game states that the Spirits/Gods gave humans the technology for trains. They left the Spirit Train behind as a statue, and the game insinuates that the Hylians figured out trains on their own once they realized what the tracks could be used for. They had already come up with steam-powered boats, so it's no stretch.

Quote

Yes, I am talking about Gods... Because what the English translation calls "Spirits of Good" are called Gods in Spanish. That's why I want to ask you how they are called originally in Japanese.

Someone get me the Japanese text and I'll clarify.

[Average Gamer]

'MikePetersSucks', on 10 Jan 2010 - 7:17 PM, said:

When people grow old, they become more likely to be injured in crippling ways. When people are crippled by injuries, they usually link it to their unsettling age. Come on, dude, I know you're capable of connecting dots.

But the elderly are naturally slower, weaker, and more fragile than young people. Why couldn't Orca have simply realized he became too old? Again, the figurine description is written in a way that sounds like a crippling injury (that Orca doesn't appear to bear) ended his journey, whereas Orca himself twice points toward time as the thing that ended his dream. That's why I requested a translation; I want to see if the Japanese text allows the descriptions to fit better with each other.

Edited by Average Gamer, 10 January 2010 - 05:18 PM.

[FDL]

Or, he simply was injured and by the time he recovered he was much older and had a harder time journeying. They're not necessarily mutually exclusive.

[Average Gamer]

'FDL', on 11 Jan 2010 - 04:16 AM, said:

Or, he simply was injured and by the time he recovered he was much older and had a harder time journeying. They're not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Again, the figurine description places all of the blame on a crippling injury while Orca himself focuses solely on time. That's why I want to see the Japanese text.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

But the elderly are naturally slower, weaker, and more fragile than young people. Why couldn't Orca have simply realized he became too old? Again, the figurine description is written in a way that sounds like a crippling injury (that Orca doesn't appear to bear) ended his journey, whereas Orca himself twice points toward time as the thing that ended his dream. That's why I requested a translation; I want to see if the Japanese text allows the descriptions to fit better with each other.

He may have believed that his fitness and training allowed him to transcend these problems until he was humbly disproven.

[Average Gamer]

'MikePetersSucks', on 11 Jan 2010 - 05:27 AM, said:

He may have believed that his fitness and training allowed him to transcend these problems until he was humbly disproven.

Still, I'd like to see the original text. Even if he was injured in his old age, his old age would still be what ultimately prevented his dream.

[MikePetersSucks]

Does it really fucking matter? Christ, it's not like anyone gives a shit about Orca. His only purpose in life is to give you a sword and a spin attack.

[Average Gamer]

'MikePetersSucks', on 11 Jan 2010 - 7:43 PM, said:

Does it really fucking matter? Christ, it's not like anyone gives a shit about Orca. His only purpose in life is to give you a sword and a spin attack.

It's part of a larger discussion on ZU involving Vaati. Vaati's figurine description in TMC states that he's a ghost of sorts in the final battle, even though he appears to be very much alive during the fight. Orca was brought up because his figurine description and his own words seem to clash, which would lessen the value and importance of the figurine descriptions and shoot down the "Vaati was a ghost" theory.

Edited by Average Gamer, 11 January 2010 - 05:07 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

It's part of a larger discussion on ZU involving Vaati. Vaati's figurine description in TMC states that he's a ghost of sorts in the final battle, even though he appears to be very much alive during the fight. Orca was brought up because his figurine description and his own words seem to clash, which would lessen the value and importance of the figurine descriptions and shoot down the "Vaati was a ghost" theory.

Well, in a way he technically is. In the third phase of the fight, Vaati is describable as being "lingering hatred."

[Average Gamer]

'MikePetersSucks', on 12 Jan 2010 - 07:23 AM, said:

Well, in a way he technically is. In the third phase of the fight, Vaati is describable as being "lingering hatred."

But isn't he still ultimately alive though? His body is very much physical, he still possesses the Light Force, and he apparently dies when he is defeated. Since we know that his soul wasn't erased from existence thanks to FS and FSA, how would he really be a spirit or one of the undead in TMC?

[MikePetersSucks]

It's not uncommon for someone to cheat death by having a particularly strong sentiment or resentment towards the living world, and if powerful enough, keep existing as a physical, destructible being despite being a "ghost." Killing them would not be destroying their soul, but a forcible exorcism.

Also, considering that Vaati has the Light Force, which grants wishes, and he fights Link in an alternate dimension of some sort for that final fight, I wouldn't put much in his "but he's physical!" argument. For all we know he's attacking Link in his mind or something.

[Average Gamer]

[quote name='MikePetersSucks' date='12 January 2010 - 11:52 AM' timestamp='1263322378' post='501448']It's not uncommon for someone to cheat death by having a particularly strong sentiment or resentment towards the living world, and if powerful enough, keep existing as a physical, destructible being despite being a "ghost." Killing them would not be destroying their soul, but a forcible exorcism.[/quote]

How would it be a forcible exorcism if he wasn't possessing anything? Also, how would he keep the Light Force in death?

[quote name='MikePetersSucks]Also, considering that Vaati has the Light Force, which grants wishes, and he fights Link in an alternate dimension of some sort for that final fight, I wouldn't put much in his "but he's physical!" argument. For all we know he's attacking Link in his mind or something.[/quote]

However, all of TMC's Vaati battles take place in strange rooms or alternate dimensions, so I wouldn't call that a ghostly trait. Defeating Vaati also makes him drop the Minish Cap, which Link physically brings back with him after the boss battle. I don't see how the final fight could have been in Link's mind.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

How would it be a forcible exorcism if he wasn't possessing anything? Also, how would he keep the Light Force in death?

A spirit doesn't have to be possessing something to be "exorcised." Exorcism and Banishment are essentially synonyms, and you can exorcise a spirit from the area, or from the living world in general. We also don't know the mechanics of the Light Force; it's possible that he could use it's wish-granting nature to hold onto it and cheat death; I personally speculate the Light Force he would still possess is what allows Vaati to come back in future games and keep his dark, sorcerous powers, since he no longer has the Minish Cap.

Quote

However, all of TMC's Vaati battles take place in strange rooms or alternate dimensions, so I wouldn't call that a ghostly trait.

The first two phases take place in a normal room, and a twisted, distorted space of that same room made to bound within itself in a moebius strip. The third fight has Link and Vaati fight in a realm with no correlation to any real-world topography, wherein it's basically a platform floating in a chaotic abyss.

Quote

Defeating Vaati also makes him drop the Minish Cap, which Link physically brings back with him after the boss battle. I don't see how the final fight could have been in Link's mind.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourMindMakesItReal ^__^

But it was never a serious consideration anyway; the point is that his possessing corporeality doesn't mean anything about his living status, as many spiritual undead in the Zelda series have had physicality and presence.

[Average Gamer]

'MikePetersSucks', on 13 Jan 2010 - 02:44 AM, said:

A spirit doesn't have to be possessing something to be "exorcised." Exorcism and Banishment are essentially synonyms, and you can exorcise a spirit from the area, or from the living world in general.

Exorcism generally refers to possession though.

'MikePetersSucks' said

We also don't know the mechanics of the Light Force; it's possible that he could use it's wish-granting nature to hold onto it and cheat death

While we don't know too much about the Light Force, characters typically lose additional magical powers/artifacts when they die in Zelda. Also, isn't the Light Force ultimately just a large collection of Force magic/energy? Additionally, regarding the whole mind thing, Vaati clearly shoots a lightning bolt down in front of Link and Zelda before the battle, indicating that he's not a mind-assaulting spirit.

'MikePetersSucks' said

The first two phases take place in a normal room, and a twisted, distorted space of that same room made to bound within itself in a moebius strip.

Vaati still demonstrates the ability to distort/create worlds though, and Link is taken from and returned to the same place before and after defeating Vaati in the third phase, meaning that the site of the final battle may have also been a twisted distortion of the space Link was in. Doesn't the alter with the petrified Zelda hang in a sort of abyss as well?

'MikePetersSucks' said

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourMindMakesItReal

That still sounds doubtful, considering the specific details of the situation.

'MikePetersSucks' said

But it was never a serious consideration anyway; the point is that his possessing corporeality doesn't mean anything about his living status, as many spiritual undead in the Zelda series have had physicality and presence.

Said undead, however, are typically transparent, capable of passing through walls, etc. Vaati lacks those traits in the final battle, and his pre-battle speech sounds quite calm and confident; he certainly doesn't sound like a guy who just got murdered, and bosses in general usually save their real power, or final form, for last.

Edited by Average Gamer, 13 January 2010 - 02:57 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

Exorcism generally refers to possession though.

Only in Catholicism. Animism and Shamanism and Vodun and Shintoism all call for exorcismic ceremonies for purifying buildings and areas.

Quote

While we don't know too much about the Light Force, characters typically lose additional magical powers/artifacts when they die in Zelda. Also, isn't the Light Force ultimately just a large collection of Force magic/energy? Additionally, regarding the whole mind thing, Vaati clearly shoots a lightning bolt down in front of Link and Zelda before the battle, indicating that he's not a mind-assaulting spirit.

The bolt of lightning was a hallucination.

If Vaati loses both the Light Force and the Minish Cap, how come he comes back in his demon lord form and not as a Minish? Clearly he kept his power, and I wager that with his near-mindless state in the later games, he's still "undead" to some degree and has become an eroded, deteriorated lingering sentiment that only vaguely remembers his goals and power, which is why Ganon eventually seems to gain control of him.

Also, Bellum is a "Phantom", but still has plenty of "life force." It's clearly not just "force of the living", it seems to be more in line with a quintessence sort of thing that everything is composed of, which makes sense since Oshus says that it's "Part of everything in the world", which I assume includes inanimate and dead things.

Quote

Vaati still demonstrates the ability to distort/create worlds though, and Link is taken from and returned to the same place before and after defeating Vaati in the third phase, meaning that the site of the final battle may have also been a twisted distortion of the space Link was in. Doesn't the alter with the petrified Zelda hang in a sort of abyss as well?

The altar is just at the top of the castle. It's not merely a twisted distortion that Vaati's third phase is fought in, because Zelda is removed from the scene entirely. No matter how you look at it, an alternate plane of existence is invoked, and this is a trait he doesn't demonstrate at any other time ever.

Quote

Said undead, however, are typically transparent, capable of passing through walls, etc. Vaati lacks those traits in the final battle, and his pre-battle speech sounds quite calm and confident; he certainly doesn't sound like a guy who just got murdered, and bosses in general usually save their real power, or final form, for last.

The sprites in Minish Cap for ghosts and stuff aren't transparent, so that's moot, and there's no walls for him to pass through, so also moot. He does come up through the floor though.

And sorry, but King Daphnes sounds calm and confident and perfectly lucid even though he's a ghost, so that doesn't mean anything, and a Boss saving his power for a final form isn't exclusive from said boss being undead or a lingering sentiment: See Zeromus or Exdeath from the Final Fantasy series, or Sephiroth.


Vaati is, as far as I'm concerned, an undead spirit at this point in the fight. There's lots of support for it and no refutation for any points.

EDIT: Hold on, here's a couple of Vaati's figurine descriptions in the game.

Description from The Minish Cap's Vaati Transfigured figurine:
Once Vaati's body has been shattered, this dark form rises up, all that remains of the evil sorcerer. Only the sacred Four Sword can defeat him.

Description from The Minish Cap's Vaati's Wrath figurine:
This is the embodiment of purest evil, the final form of the power-mad Vaati. Its mind is consumed with a hunger for destruction. Find its weakness.

I win.

Edited by MikePetersSucks, 13 January 2010 - 02:55 AM.

[Average Gamer]

'MikePetersSucks', on 13 Jan 2010 - 07:51 AM, said:

Only in Catholicism. Animism and Shamanism and Vodun and Shintoism all call for exorcismic ceremonies for purifying buildings and areas.

Alright. Thanks.

'MikePetersSucks' said

If Vaati loses both the Light Force and the Minish Cap, how come he comes back in his demon lord form and not as a Minish?

Karma perhaps? Also, wasn't it mentioned in the translations thread that a person can eventually become a demon over time just by being wicked and corrupt enough?

'MikePetersSucks' said

Clearly he kept his power, and I wager that with his near-mindless state in the later games, he's still "undead" to some degree and has become an eroded, deteriorated lingering sentiment that only vaguely remembers his goals and power, which is why Ganon eventually seems to gain control of him.

Vaati has some wit and personality in FS though, and wasn't he actually acting independent of Ganon in FSA, unintentionally being a diversion of sorts?

'MikePetersSucks' said

Also, Bellum is a "Phantom", but still has plenty of "life force."

This is the first I've heard of Bellum being a "Phantom". Please elaborate. Also, while we're discussing phantoms, would the various Phantom Ganons in the series be like Bellum, or simply regular enemies made in Ganondorf's image?

'MikePetersSucks' said

The altar is just at the top of the castle.

I checked on Youtube and it appears to be an unsupported platform (not counting the thin bridge leading to it) in the middle of a purple and red void.

'MikePetersSucks' said

It's not merely a twisted distortion that Vaati's third phase is fought in, because Zelda is removed from the scene entirely.

However, the walls were seemingly removed in the second phase of the fight as well, and the background vaguely resembles the corrupted room from the second phase and the void seen from the altar platform.

'MikePetersSucks' said

The sprites in Minish Cap for ghosts and stuff aren't transparent, so that's moot,

But do they still have any traditional ghostly traits, such as halos, lanterns, or "blanket bodies"?

'MikePetersSucks' said

and there's no walls for him to pass through, so also moot.

He powerfully shakes the ground/screen when he's shot out of the air though, and he also generates wings to make himself more mobile in the air.

'MikePetersSucks' said

He does come up through the floor though.

He appears to use some sort of portal for that move.

'MikePetersSucks' said

And sorry, but King Daphnes sounds calm and confident and perfectly lucid even though he's a ghost,

Is there any real proof that Daphnes is a ghost though? He could have just had a long life due to magic, similar to the Twinrova sisters, and his teleportation in Hyrule Castle may just simply be that; he turns around during the cutscene, so it's not like he can't interact with the ground or anything.

'MikePetersSucks' said

so that doesn't mean anything, and a Boss saving his power for a final form isn't exclusive from said boss being undead or a lingering sentiment: See Zeromus or Exdeath from the Final Fantasy series, or Sephiroth.

It still seems rather unlikely that a villain would hold back to the point where they would actually die before using their full strength though, and Zelda villains often like to, for a lack of a better word, troll. Veran from OoX also apparently had a "delayed" final form.

While I don't remember the situation with Zeromus, Exdeath's final form was something random that he didn't account for, and wasn't Sephiroth already dead by the time of the final battles or something?

'MikePetersSucks' said

EDIT: Hold on, here's a couple of Vaati's figurine descriptions in the game.

But the point of this discussion was to see if said figurines were accurate in the first place. Also, Vaati transformed into his second state; he wasn't "shattered" or anything.

Edited by Average Gamer, 13 January 2010 - 03:49 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

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Karma perhaps? Also, wasn't it mentioned in the translations thread that a person can eventually become a demon over time just by being wicked and corrupt enough?

There's still the issue of having badass, awe-inspiring powers.

Quote

Vaati has some wit and personality in FS though, and wasn't he actually acting independent of Ganon in FSA, unintentionally being a diversion of sorts?

Said personality is fairly subdued though, and he doesn't seem to understand why he's kidnapping maidens, possibly a residual memory of TMC. And I'm pretty sure Vaati was working for Ganon, since he was feeding him energy.

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This is the first I've heard of Bellum being a "Phantom". Please elaborate. Also, while we're discussing phantoms, would the various Phantom Ganons in the series be like Bellum, or simply regular enemies made in Ganondorf's image?

It's explicitly stated that Bellum and the Phantoms are a synonymous group-entity, and he created the Ghost Ship and consumes life force and possesses living people. Obvious implication is obvious. And no, the Phantom Ganon's seem to just be enemies in Ganondorf's image.

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I checked on Youtube and it appears to be an unsupported platform (not counting the thin bridge leading to it) in the middle of a purple and red void.

That's clearly the sky, dude.

Quote

However, the walls were seemingly removed in the second phase of the fight as well, and the background vaguely resembles the corrupted room from the second phase and the void seen from the altar platform.

It's still not analogous to any actual physical location, even if it's a portmanteau of familiar locales. As I already explained, the second phase room was made into a Moebius Strip. Please pay attention.

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But do they still have any traditional ghostly traits, such as halos, lanterns, or "blanket bodies"?

Are you seriously suggesting you need Vaati to look like a cartoon ghost?

Quote

He powerfully shakes the ground/screen when he's shot out of the air though, and he also generates wings to make himself more mobile in the air.

Various spiritual entities have wings they don't need, and even so, not all ghosts can fly. And as we've established that the undead can possess corporeality, this doesn't mean anything anyway.

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Is there any real proof that Daphnes is a ghost though? He could have just had a long life due to magic, similar to the Twinrova sisters, and his teleportation in Hyrule Castle may just simply be that; he turns around during the cutscene, so it's not like he can't interact with the ground or anything.

He also possesses a wooden boat and can breathe underwater well enough to talk without creating air bubbles or suffer asphyxiation. Come on.

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It still seems rather unlikely that a villain would hold back to the point where they would actually die before using their full strength though, and Zelda villains often like to, for a lack of a better word, troll. Veran from OoX also apparently had a "delayed" final form.

While I don't remember the situation with Zeromus, Exdeath's final form was something random that he didn't account for, and wasn't Sephiroth already dead by the time of the final battles or something?

So why can't Vaati's third form be some unexpected power-upgrade he received post-mortem due to his intense hatred for Link? You're using extremely circular logic, here.

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But the point of this discussion was to see if said figurines were accurate in the first place. Also, Vaati transformed into his second state; he wasn't "shattered" or anything.

Flowery text is flowery. The term is also translatable as "broken", which it was, since the body had been cut up with swords and shit over and over, and eventually Vaati abandoned his humanoid, fleshy body to become some energy thing. The figurines are accurate; they don't contradict at any point and they're within the game itself. You're making problems where they don't exist.

[Average Gamer]

'MikePetersSucks', on 13 Jan 2010 - 09:17 AM, said:

There's still the issue of having badass, awe-inspiring powers.

They might just originate from being a demon. If I recall correctly, the translations thread mentioned something about a woman in Okami whose vanity and wickedness inadvertently created a powerful mirror demon.

'MikePetersSucks' said

Said personality is fairly subdued though,

FS didn't have much of a plot and was a side game of sorts, so that would probably explain a lack of depth or dialogue.

'MikePetersSucks' said

and he doesn't seem to understand why he's kidnapping maidens, possibly a residual memory of TMC.

Couldn't that just be chalked up to Vaati being a vain douche?

'MikePetersSucks' said

And I'm pretty sure Vaati was working for Ganon, since he was feeding him energy.

I've heard something about Vaati trying to take over Hyrule, or at least gather minions, on his own.

'MikePetersSucks' said

It's explicitly stated that Bellum and the Phantoms are a synonymous group-entity, and he created the Ghost Ship and consumes life force and possesses living people.

He created them, but I never heard anything about Bellum necessarily being a ghostly figure in his own right. Thanks.

'MikePetersSucks' said

That's clearly the sky, dude.

The lighting and position of the colors look rather strange to be the sky, and the platform still seems to be unsupported.

'MikePetersSucks' said

As I already explained, the second phase room was made into a Moebius Strip.

I was referring to the color when I said that the void background in the third fight vaguely resembled the second phase's room.

'MikePetersSucks' said

Are you seriously suggesting you need Vaati to look like a cartoon ghost?

No, I was just wondering if the ghosts in TMC had any features that would immediately identify them as ghosts.

'MikePetersSucks' said

Various spiritual entities have wings they don't need

Vaati's wings actually speed him up, so they aren't superficial.

'MikePetersSucks' said

He also possesses a wooden boat

Seeing as how Link can possess seagulls with a pear, I don't see why Daphnes couldn't have been using magic.

'MikePetersSucks' said

and can breathe underwater well enough to talk without creating air bubbles or suffer asphyxiation.

Yet, aside from his magic, Daphnes was the master of the Triforce at that time; he may have possibly been able to choose when he'd be killed in that instance. Also, as far as giving the kids hope, Daphnes instantly getting ground to a pulp by the ocean wouldn't have exactly left them with a good parting image. As for Daphnes talking, the screen has faded to black by the time he delivers his only line underwater, and the series' use of text wouldn't have let us hear him gurgling anyway.

'MikePetersSucks' said

So why can't Vaati's third form be some unexpected power-upgrade he received post-mortem due to his intense hatred for Link?

Again, Vaati's pre-battle speech sounds rather calm. If Vaati had forced himself back into the world of the living through sheer rage, one would expect that his words would contain far more anger and venom. Also, how would he have kept the Minish Cap after the second phase if he were dead? Villains in Zelda typically don't get to take magical artifacts or additional powers beyond the grave.

'MikePetersSucks' said

Flowery text is flowery.

But it still doesn't make sense even when that's accounted for. Vaati, still clearly alive, floated down in his first form and basically made a "The kid gloves are coming off," statement before physically transforming. It seems comparable to Ganondorf taking on his false god form in TP.

[MikePetersSucks]

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They might just originate from being a demon. If I recall correctly, the translations thread mentioned something about a woman in Okami whose vanity and wickedness inadvertently created a powerful mirror demon.

Other people in Hyrule who ascend to demon status become weak little Poes or Moblins; not gonna fly.

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Couldn't that just be chalked up to Vaati being a vain douche?

In TMC, he had no interest in women except for where it was necessary for his quest for power, and then in his future incarnations he was obsessed with women for no defined reason.

Then next time we see him, he doesn't say anything at all, and just absorbs energy to be fed to Ganon.

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I've heard something about Vaati trying to take over Hyrule, or at least gather minions, on his own.

Ganon's involvement was a plot twist, remember?

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The lighting and position of the colors look rather strange to be the sky, and the platform still seems to be unsupported.

Remember, the castle was transformed. Having an unsupported platform (which is supported, technically, by the bridge) doesn't mean anything.

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Vaati's wings actually speed him up, so they aren't superficial.

It still doesn't change the fact that ghosts don't always correlate to having no need for any wings they might possess. Case in point, cartoon angels.

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Seeing as how Link can possess seagulls with a pear, I don't see why Daphnes couldn't have been using magic.

Link can't do things with the birds that would be against physical possibility, and it only lasts for a certain period of time, and if you get hit, it cancels out, and it's a game mechanic.

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Yet, aside from his magic, Daphnes was the master of the Triforce at that time; he may have possibly been able to choose when he'd be killed in that instance. Also, as far as giving the kids hope, Daphnes instantly getting ground to a pulp by the ocean wouldn't have exactly left them with a good parting image. As for Daphnes talking, the screen has faded to black by the time he delivers his only line underwater, and the series' use of text wouldn't have let us hear him gurgling anyway.

Yea, he was master of the Triforce for about two seconds before he surrendered it due to his wish. He still exhibits absolutely zero signs of being alive.

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Again, Vaati's pre-battle speech sounds rather calm. If Vaati had forced himself back into the world of the living through sheer rage, one would expect that his words would contain far more anger and venom. Also, how would he have kept the Minish Cap after the second phase if he were dead? Villains in Zelda typically don't get to take magical artifacts or additional powers beyond the grave.

I can name loads upon loads of villains who remain calm despite seething with rage; such as, say, Naraku from Inuyasha, who's an easily recognizable example.

The Minish Cap is something that grants wishes, and it seems to cease physically existing when he transforms anyway. He may have absorbed it into himself entirely.

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But it still doesn't make sense even when that's accounted for. Vaati, still clearly alive, floated down in his first form and basically made a "The kid gloves are coming off," statement before physically transforming. It seems comparable to Ganondorf taking on his false god form in TP.

It doesn't change the fact that his body shatters and he's called a lingering sentiment. He's described exactly the same way as a Poe is: A spirit of pure hatred and evil. You're fighting against intuitive reasoning and evidence, dude. Don't turn into Lex.

[Average Gamer]

'MikePetersSucks', on 14 Jan 2010 - 02:20 AM, said:

Other people in Hyrule who ascend to demon status become weak little Poes or Moblins

What about Ganondorf? He's certainly not a weak little Poe or Moblin.

'MikePetersSucks' said

In TMC, he had no interest in women except for where it was necessary for his quest for power, and then in his future incarnations he was obsessed with women for no defined reason.

What I mean is, why couldn't he just be abducting them to stroke his ego? He did take Hyrule Castle as his own in TMC after all.

'MikePetersSucks' said

Then next time we see him, he doesn't say anything at all, and just absorbs energy to be fed to Ganon.

We're not exactly put in a situation where he'd really be talking to Link though.

'MikePetersSucks' said

Ganon's involvement was a plot twist, remember?

Yes, but the stuff I've heard about supposedly came after that reveal. I'll try to find it.

'MikePetersSucks' said

Remember, the castle was transformed. Having an unsupported platform (which is supported, technically, by the bridge) doesn't mean anything.

How would changing the castle itself alter the sky though? Even then, if Vaati's just good at distorting things, why couldn't the site of the final battle just be incredibly distorted to reflect Vaati's sheer power at that point? If Vaati can create mobius strips and people like Zant can change the world around them, I don't see why the location of the final battle couldn't be created or put together by Vaati.

'MikePetersSucks' said

It still doesn't change the fact that ghosts don't always correlate to having no need for any wings they might possess.

Ghostly wings typically serve no function though, and angels aren't exactly ghosts either.

'MikePetersSucks' said

Link can't do things with the birds that would be against physical possibility,

He's possessing a bird with a piece of fruit; that itself doesn't exactly stick to physical possibility, and Daphnes has magical powers, explaining why he could alter the boat.

'MikePetersSucks' said

Yea, he was master of the Triforce for about two seconds before he surrendered it due to his wish.

The Triforce doesn't have to be present for someone to be the master of it; see Ganon in ALttP. Daphnes clearly wanted to stick around and tell the kids one last thing before sending them off.

'MikePetersSucks' said

I can name loads upon loads of villains who remain calm despite seething with rage; such as, say, Naraku from Inuyasha, who's an easily recognizable example.

However, Vaati would have just been killed about three minutes ago after giving an angry "I can't lose to a mortal!" speech. His calmness, smug laugh, and the timing of the lightning bolt make it feel more like a "Lol I troll you" moment.

'MikePetersSucks' said

The Minish Cap is something that grants wishes,

The Triforce also grants wishes, but people lose the Triforce/the Triforce pieces when they die.

'MikePetersSucks' said

and it seems to cease physically existing when he transforms anyway. He may have absorbed it into himself entirely.

I just figured that Vaati had a magical pocket of his own or something. Also, if the Minish Cap had become one with Vaati and stayed a part of him even after death, why would he lose it after the third phase?

'MikePetersSucks' said

It doesn't change the fact that his body shatters and he's called a lingering sentiment.

Except his body doesn't shatter or break at all; Vaati clearly wills his transformation, changing his body into the flying eye while flaunting his power.

'MikePetersSucks' said

He's described exactly the same way as a Poe is: A spirit of pure hatred and evil.

While he is said to be a being of pure hatred and evil, Ganondorf was known as the evil incarnation of darkness in OoT yet wasn't dead, and Sharp, Flat, and possibly Dampe just muddle the whole issue. Also, didn't the description of Poes in the translations thread merely define them as the spirits of people who hated the world up till their deaths?

Also, no other enemy in the series has demonstrated an ability to immediately become a super Poe or something along those lines.

'MikePetersSucks' said

Don't turn into Lex.

I'm certainly not trying to be like Lex and I apologize if I sounded similar to him. I just don't see any reason in the game itself to believe that Vaati died before Link defeated his final form. The stuff leading up to that just seems like general "Tremble at my power you filthy peasants/final form/lol jk this is my real final form" villainy.

This discussion probably won't get anywhere, so let's end it here.