1600 replies to this topic

[Raien]

You don't believe evolution exists at all in Hyrule?

Nope. From my Symbolism article:

As a fantasy series, The Legend of Zelda is quick to borrow the conventions of myths and legends to build its universe. But a lot of players can’t distinguish the mythology from the real world, and so they discuss a lot of ideas that really don’t apply to the Zelda universe, such as genetics and tectonic plates. What separates mythology from science is symbolism, and this article will explain how and why the Zelda universe is grounded upon symbolism.

First of all, I need to explain what symbolism is. Symbolism is the process of explaining the world through meaning and purpose, as opposed to physical causality. For example, water has always been recognised for its apparent purpose to nourish life, but not the actual process of nourishment. This is because we can only symbolise what we can physically and emotionally sense. The feeling of thirst, and the emotional satisfaction of drinking water when thirsty, defines the symbolism of water having purpose for nourishment. But we cannot see or feel the intake of water into the cells of our body; that is something we know exists only through scientific analysis, and so that aspect of nourishment holds no symbolic meaning to us. The Zelda universe functions on this basis, with the creation of the elements of earth, air, fire and water, and the Triforce possessing the human traits of power, wisdom and courage. Genetics and tectonic plates do not exist in a symbolic universe.

One argument to support the application of modern science into the Zelda mythology is that the authors are contemporary, and thus contemporary scientific knowledge is expected to be carried across in their writing. However, contemporary writers are aware that symbolism is more emotionally powerful to audiences than science is, and symbolism is actually responsible for why we enjoy these stories so much. The writers for Disney's The Lion King make that case in the commentaries, establishing the film’s success as an emotional response to the symbolism present in the story. In particular, the scene in which Simba discovered the spiritual connection with his father was cited as the most emotional part of the film. And so if symbolism is important to the audience, then it is not surprising that the Zelda series has built such an emotional reaction from the general public. It's not a large step to take from "natural king of the Pridelands" to "natural hero of Hyrule", after all. And so I think we would be truer to the writers if we start looking at the symbolism inherent in the Zelda mythology, as opposed to discussing the inclusion of scientific facts.

Edited by Raien, 17 March 2009 - 11:05 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

LOL, no one believed in DARWINIAN evolution in Zelda. Atleast no one who wasn't absolutely dipstick retarded.

[FDL]

Interesting. I don't have much of an opinion on evolution in Zelda, but it's still interesting to think about.

[jacensolo06]

Here's the Zora Armor stuff:

我が夫が生前、勇者のために作らせた ゾーラの力　宿りし衣を これで私も　ようやく王とともに　眠りにつくことができます
When my husband was alive, for the sake of the hero, he had a garment that had the power of the Zoras in it created. Now I too can finally rest along with the king.
During his lifetime, my husband created garments specifically for the chosen hero, garments that house the abilities of the Zora. Now, at last, I can join the king in slumber.

ゾーラの服を　受け取った! ゾーラ王家に伝わる　特別な衣
You got the Zora Tunic! It is a special garment passed down by the Zora Royal Family.
You got Zora armor! This special garment was handed down through the Zora royal family.

[Raien]

The second Zora Armor quote is a significant change. The NOA translation suggests that the Zora Armor was passed down over generations of Zora royalty, whereas the original Japanese translation merely suggests that Link inherited it from the Zora royal family. Unless I'm forgetting a quote, I think we can safely put this inconsistency to rest.

[FDL]

jacen, do you think maybe you could please translate the quotes about the previous hero from TP at some point(besides the ones you already have)? Jumbie translated some of 'em towards the beginning of this topic, but he has allegedly said he wasn't as good then as he was now, and I'd like a second opinion now that it seems like the text dump/accesible quotes are more...complete? So to speak. You don't need to do it at any specific time, just when you get the chance and when you want to do it. Thanks.

Edited by FDL, 19 March 2009 - 01:29 PM.

[Average Gamer]

Lexxi Aileron has recently been claiming on ZU that Jumbie and Jacensolo06 ignored the kanji in parenthesis when translating Zelda's statement regarding Ganon in FSA. To clear things up, I sent a PM to Jacensolo06 and asked him to clarify on the parenthesis and the kanji within. This is what he had to say:

The parenthesis just explains how to pronounce it, nothing more.

Here's an example of the same thing from OoT:

デクの盾(たて)を　手に入れた!
You got a Deku Shield (tate)!
You got a Deku Shield!

There's a parenthesis after "盾", the kanji for "shield", telling the reader that it's pronounced "tate".

Hopefully that issue is now cleared up for those who have been interested in it.

[Impossible]

Jumbie said AT THE VERY GODDAMN BEGINNING OF THIS that the brackets were a pronunciation guide, i.e. furigana. Yet Lex lies and says it's been ignored. By three objective sources who all claim otherwise and actually understand Japanese.

[Average Gamer]

Jumbie said AT THE VERY GODDAMN BEGINNING OF THIS that the brackets were a pronunciation guide, i.e. furigana. Yet Lex lies and says it's been ignored. By three objective sources who all claim otherwise and actually understand Japanese.

Brackets? As far as I know, they're parenthesis. Of course, you might be using a British term or something.

Anyway, Lex was being persistent about that, so I just decided to PM Jacen and get that settled.

[MikePetersSucks]

Impossible might have misspoken. Jumbie treated both ( ) and [ ] as pronunciation guides.

Doesn't stop Lex from lying, though.

[Impossible]

Geez, must you be so picky? Brackets, while not technically accurate, is shorter and easier to type. >_> (Also, I'm sure Lex would abuse square brackets if he could.)

Edited by Impossible, 24 March 2009 - 05:47 PM.

[Average Gamer]

Bad news; despite the fact that Lex was specifically shown that the parenthesis were just for pronunciation, he still thinks that Jumbie and Jacensolo06 are wrong, despite the fact that they know Japanese and he doesn't. I'm sending his PM to Jacensolo06.

Edited by Average Gamer, 24 March 2009 - 07:14 PM.

[Raien]

Is it just me, or is Lex becoming increasingly like news-pundit Glenn Beck? He's repeatedly wrong about meanings and definitions, he disregards evidence, spreads lies and speculation, and now he's starting to believe the world is conspiring against him. The only thing left for him to do now is organise a "We surround them" convention and cry about the state of theorising.

[Average Gamer]

Jacensolo06 has responded to Lexxi Aileron's PM. The conversation is below.

In Phantom Hourglass, the developers included an in-depth kanji help system which allowed Japanese players to place their stylus on words in kanji, bringing up an alternative form of the word in another Japanese script to help players understand what the game was saying. I imagine that something like that was employed here to aid players in interpreting what "ja-ki" is supposed to mean.

All the PH thing does is show the furigana of a kanji when the player touched it. All furigana does is tell how the kanji is pronounced in case the reader doesn't know. TP has furigana throughout the entire game.

In this case, we see the kana for "evil spirit" alongside the kanji for a word that can mean "device," "instrument," "container," or "vessel." So I would say this probably means that the ja-ki, the trident, is both an object and a spirit- a vessel.

Furigana can be used to apply a double meaning to a word, but if the writers of FSA wanted "jaki" to also mean "evil spirit" they would have put the kanji, "邪鬼", in the parentheses instead of the kana, "じゃき".
The kana for "jaki" don't necessarily mean "evil spirit". They could just as easily mean "noxious gas". What gives the word meaning is the kanji.

邪器 = Evil Tool
邪鬼 = Evil Spirit
邪気 = Noxious Gas/Maliciousness

All three of these would have the furigana "じゃき (jaki)".

"じゃき," on the other hand, has a different meaning than "邪器," at least as far as I know, one that connotes "spirit" or "malice" instead of "device."

That's the problem, you don't know what you're talking about. As I already said, "じゃき" does not necessarily mean "evil spirit", "邪鬼" does.

I'd just be repeating myself if I responded to the rest of what Lex said, so I'll stop.

Once again, thank you for this Jacen.

[Theorizing_is_just_a_hobby]

From OoT:

She claims to be a chivalrous
robber, but...no way!

As long as you hold the Ocarina
of Time and the Master Sword,
you hold time itself in your
hands...

Translate, Thank You

[Impossible]

Oh my god. I don't speak ANY Japanese and I still know that furigana are there to explain pronunciation, not the meaning - the entire point of the kanji is to have a specific meaning, when the syllables alone could mean multiple things.

[Arturo]

Impossible might have misspoken. Jumbie treated both ( ) and [ ] as pronunciation guides.

Doesn't stop Lex from lying, though.

In British English "()" can be called "brackets". So it's correct.

[Fin]

Jeez, why doesn't Lex just swear off an official understanding of the timeline, ignore all the unofficial translations and put an "I'm going by the English version of the games, neener neener" disclaimer on his theories. Sure, he'd be sacrificing any credibility, but at least he'd be upfront about that being the point.

[Duke Serkol]

Good heavens, why don't we just ignore naysayers and continue from where we left?
I mean, this IS a service done for the community, not some kind of scam.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 09 April 2009 - 12:33 PM.

[Showsni]

Jeez, why doesn't Lex just swear off an official understanding of the timeline, ignore all the unofficial translations and put an "I'm going by the English version of the games, neener neener" disclaimer on his theories. Sure, he'd be sacrificing any credibility, but at least he'd be upfront about that being the point.

Making clear which version of the games you hold as canon is a good start to any theory. I like it when people go by just the English versions, because then it's entirely impossible to equate OoT and the IW, thanks to the Master Sword...

[DarkZero24]

Just wanted to pop in, and say lol. I can't believe Lex is STILL doing the same shit as always.

[Fin]

In response to Showsni's alt text...

Shame the Japanese is more ambiguous about when it was made.

I've always had a pet theory that the Temple of Time and the Master Sword were both created in response to the uprising of the Twili's ancestors. After they were banished to the twilight realm the gods ordered the sages to seal up the sacred realm, forge the Master Sword, etc.

Although, now that I think of it, I'm not sure most of those ideas survive jacen's translations that well. >_> Well... I still defiantly stand by them for the English versions.

[Duke Serkol]

Hey Jacen, I have a small request.

You know how on Zelda Legends there's a retranslation of the manual for the first game by Johan and Zethar II, right? Well there is one passage from it that I would like to have clarified further:

ハイラル地方にある小王国には、神秘の力を持つ"トライフォース"と呼ばれる黄金の三角形が、代々伝えられていた。

They translated it as:
In a little kingdom, located in the Hyrule region, generations had told about the golden triangular Triforce, which hold mysterious powers.

whereas the official translation was:
in a little kingdom in the land of Hyrule, a legend was being banded down from generation to generation, the legend of the "Triforce"; golden triangles possessing mystical powers.

What I'm interested about, is the lack of the word legend. This seems more appropriate since they still have the Triforce up to shortly before the beginning of the game, so it shouldn't really be a legend as much as a fact.
But then how is the line to be interpreted exactly? I mean "generations had told about the golden triangular Triforce"? Had told whom? The subsequent generation?

Also, I wonder about the mysterious powers... do they use the same word used for the Triforce of Power (chikara)? or is an effort made to draw a distinction?

Edited by Duke Serkol, 26 March 2009 - 09:33 PM.

[jacensolo06]

I would translate it as:

In a small kingdom in the Hyrule region, the golden triangle called the "Triforce" that possesses mysterious powers was passed on for generations.

The confusion comes from the fact that the verb used literally means "to transmit/convey" and is usually used to refer to telling someone something.

As for the mysterious powers, it does use "chikara", but it's a common enough word that it doesn't really matter.

[Duke Serkol]

Ah, thank you, that certainly makes more sense

[FDL]

So jacen, will you be able to translate that stuff for me at some point? I asked a while ago so I wanted to make sure you saw my post.

[MikePetersSucks]

Oh shush. You gave him a fairly huge job and it hasn't even been ten days since you did it. Be patient, translations take time.

[FDL]

I don't want him to go out of his way, I just wanted acknowledgement that he'd seen my post and a "yes" or "no" so I knew what was going on.

[jacensolo06]

Here's all the ancient hero lines I could find with a quick search through the text dump:

勇者の弓を　手に入れた! 古の勇者が遺したと伝えられる ゴロン族の宝
You got the Hero’s Bow! It is a treasure of the Goron race said to have been left behind by the ancient hero.
You got the Hero's Bow! This treasure of the Gorons is said to have once belonged to a Hero from the past.

その昔、ハイラルの危機を救った 伝説の勇者が身につけていたとされる衣
These clothes are said to have been worn by the legendary hero who saved Hyrule from a crisis long ago.
Green clothes. It is said that the hero who long ago saved Hyrule from danger wore these.

身にまといし　緑の衣は かつて神に選ばれし古の勇者のもの・・・
The green clothes you wear once belonged to the ancient hero who was chosen by the gods…
The green tunic that is your garb once belonged to the ancient hero chosen by the gods...

そのお姿を見ていると、ハイラルに伝わる 古の勇者を思い出します
When I see you, it reminds me of the ancient hero told of in Hyrule.
In Hyrule, countless tales are told of the ancient hero...and your deeds bring them all to mind.

古の勇者の武器 どうやら　役に立ったようじゃのぉ
It seems the ancient hero’s weapon was helpful.
Looks like the Hero's weapon came in handy...

その流行を完全に無視したデザイン・・・ 伝説の勇者風　だよね~
That design that completely ignores fashion… It’s the legendary hero style.
That timeless design... You're sporting the legendary hero LOOK, aren't you?

伝説の勇者気取り・・・か、 大した自信だな
Dressing like the legendary hero…you have a lot of self confidence.
Dressing like the legendary hero...Wow, gutsy.

・・・よし! 古の勇者の武器、持って行けゴロ!
…Okay! Take the ancient hero’s weapon-goro!
...Ah! So THAT is why you are here! In that case, take the weapon of the Hero of the past...

この鉱山には、古の勇者が遺したと 言い伝えられる　武器があるゴロ
In this mine, there is a weapon that is said to have been left behind by the ancient hero-goro.
There is something that may help you... A weapon said to have been left in this mine by a hero of old.

There were a lot more lines with Gorons referring to the bow as the "ancient hero's weapon (古の勇者の武器)" that I skipped because they don't really add anything.
Also, as usual, the Japanese could mean either "the hero" or "a hero".

[Duke Serkol]

What about the one that says the hero used the bow to rid the land of some of the most terrible monsters it ever saw (or something like that)?

Anyway good, it seems everything was translated correctly (except for some added color which is welcome I'd say).