1600 replies to this topic

[MikePetersSucks]

This is all assuming we're using "Judge" in the right context, as the Triforce and human beings certainly recognize good and evil people (Zelda isn't a world with much gray morality). Perhaps the passage means that only the gods can JUDGE Good or Evil in the sense of judging someone's karma in some sort of cosmic court.

[Erimgard]

Excellent work!
I kinda of figured it was not specified that evil beings emerged from the SR, but just evil power.

[Jumbie]

Yes it could, and might support something I've been thinking on.

What's that?

To be fair, "sorcerer" has a much more negative connotation.

Than wizard? Okay, didn't know that.

That's actually not anything new - The NoA version says it in the Intro legend. Now we just know it is correct.

Oh, right. ^^;

I could have gone with Raian, if not for the fact the full quote from the ALttP manual is "The Triforce cannot judge between good and evil. That is because only the gods can do that." (Jumbie might want to re-translate that passage, just to make sure) So, no-one except the goddesses can truly tell good from evil.

トライフォースは自らで善悪を判断しません。善悪を判断するのは神だけだからです。
The Triforce itself does not judge good and evil. For only the gods judge good and evil.

Instead of "good and evil", 善悪 can also be translated as "right and wrong".

Good, that's all I wanted to say as well.

Btw, Raian's explanation goes for me, too.

This is all assuming we're using "Judge" in the right context, as the Triforce and human beings certainly recognize good and evil people (Zelda isn't a world with much gray morality). Perhaps the passage means that only the gods can JUDGE Good or Evil in the sense of judging someone's karma in some sort of cosmic court.

I think you're right. In fact, the kanji 善悪 are part of the Japanese word for karma.

[CID Farwin]

What's that?

It's kind of hard to explain, since I don't have it fully worked out in my head yet, but basically it concerns the role of the Triforce (specifically the spirit of the Triforce) in the newer games where the Triforce is split, and if maybe it's more involved than I thought.

Than wizard? Okay, didn't know that.

Yeah, I think of it this way: People who dab in black magic and witchcraft and stuff are "Sorcerers" so the word carries more of a negative connotation. It can mean "Wizard," (which is pretty much neutral, they could be good or bad (or neither))but it depends on the situation. And while I'm at it" "Priests" are generally associated with some sort of Church, therefore the connotation is good. There are exceptions to all of these, of course.

I hope that makes sense.

This is all assuming we're using "Judge" in the right context, as the Triforce and human beings certainly recognize good and evil people (Zelda isn't a world with much gray morality). Perhaps the passage means that only the gods can JUDGE Good or Evil in the sense of judging someone's karma in some sort of cosmic court.

More to think about. Hm.

[NM87]

I find it amazing that people can still argue about what a word could mean or what a word might have been. Its sooooo funny, that the line "The Triforce can not judge between good and evil" can't be any clearer, yet one could make it sound so ambiguous.

About wizard/priest/sorcerer: who cares?

Edited by NM87, 20 June 2008 - 08:35 PM.

[Fyxe]

About wizard/priest/sorcerer: who cares?

In many Japanese games, manga and anime, there's actually a large difference between the various titles for these sort of things. Not a good example to pick on if you're gonna complain about nitpickin'.

Besides, if you don't know the difference between a priest and a sorcerer, you're having a mental lapse somewhere.

[Jumbie]

Today I have the manual story of Four Swords GBA. Honestly, I didn't expect that many differences in there... But so it is, and they're quite interesting too:

ストーリー
Story
Legend of the Four Sword

その昔、ハイラルという国の奥地にグフーという風の魔人があらわれて、美しい娘を次々にさらっていきました。
Long ago, in the inner reaches of a land called Hyrule, there appeared a wind sorcerer named Gufuu and began kidnapping beautiful girls, one after another.
Long ago, in the kingdom of Hyrule, there appeared a wind sorcerer named Vaati. Vaati could bend the wind to his will and used this awful power to terrorize many villages of Hyrule. In his assaults on the villages, Vaati would kidnap any beautiful girls who caught his fancy.

お城の騎士や勇気ある者が、魔人を退治してさらわれた娘たちを救い出そうとしましたが、グフーの強さの前には、まったくかないません。
Knights from the castle and brave men tried to defeat the sorcerer and rescue the kidnapped girls, but they couldn't match the strength of Gufuu at all.
Many knights from the castle and other brave men set out to subdue the sorcerer and rescue the girls, but each one fell in turn to Vaati's awesome power.

人々が困り果てていると、そこへ一本の剣をたずさえた旅の少年が現れ「ぼくが魔人を退治しましょう」と言うました。
Just as the people had fallen into despair, there appeared a travelling boy who carried only a single sword, and he said, "I will defeat this sorcerer."
Just as the people had begun to lose hope, a lone young boy travelling with little but a sword at his side appeared. When this boy heard what was happening, he said only, "I will defeat this sorcerer."

そして魔人の棲家に乗り込んだ少年はたちまちグフーをその剣に封印し、森の奥深くに突き刺して何処かへ去っていったのです。
And the boy entered the sorcerer's abode, instantly sealed Gufuu in that sword, stuck it deep into the forest, and disappeared somewhere.
He boldly entered Vaati's palace, mystically trapped the evil sorcerer inside the blade of his sword, and returned the young girls to their villages. The boy then went deep into the forest and disappeared.

人々は、少年がどうやってグフーを退治したのか、助け出された娘たちに聞きました。
The people asked the rescued girls how the boy defeated Gufuu.
The villagers asked the girls how a boy so young could have saved them all and defeated the sorcerer when no one else could.

彼女たちは口々に、少年が剣を抜くと身体が４つに分かれ、その４人で力を合わせてグフーを退治したのだといいます。
In unison, the girls said that when the boy drew his sword, his body split into four, and uniting their powers those four defeated Gufuu.
The young girls told a story of how, with just a wave of his sword, the boy's body shattered into four pieces, each of which then formed a complete copy of the boy. These four young boys then worked together to defeat the sorcerer.

夢を見たのような娘たちの言葉に、人々はそれを信じませんでしたが、森に封印された剣を"フォーソード"となづけ、触ると身体が分かれてしまうという噂と共に、神殿を作り大切に祭ったのでした??
Although the people did not believe the girls' dreamlike words, they christened the sword sealed in the forest the "Four Sword", and since it was rumoured to divide one's body at a touch, they built a temple to carefully enshrine it??
The people did not believe the story, but they called it the Four Sword nonetheless. As rumours of the blade's power to divide a person into four entities spread, the people built a shrine to protect it.

ハイラル国のゼルダ姫は、生まれながらに邪悪を感じる不思議な力を持っている、とても美しい王女さまでした。
Princess Zelda of the land of Hyrule was a beautiful princess born with the mysterious power to sense evil.
Princess Zelda of the land of Hyrule was a beautiful young girl born with the mysterious power to sense approaching forces of evil.

そのため、その昔魔人を封じたといわれるフォーソードの神殿の守護もゼルダ姫の仕事のひとつです。
For this reason, the protection of the temple of the Four Sword that was said to have sealed the wind sorcerer long ago was also one of Princess Zelda's tasks.
For this reason, she was assigned the sacred duty of protecting the Shrine of the Four Sword and the blade itself.

ある日「フォーソードの神殿に異変が?」そう感じたゼルダ姫はハイラルで自分が最も信頼を置くを少年、リンクをお供にフォーソードの神殿を訪れたのでした。
One day, Princess Zelda felt, "An accident at the temple of the Four Sword?", and went to inspect the temple accompanied by Link, a boy whom she trusted most in Hyrule.
One day, Zelda was in Hyrule Castle when she sensed that something unusual was occurring at the Four Sword Shrine. She asked a boy named Link, whom she trusted above anyone else, to accompany her to investigate the happenings at the shrine?

Notes:
- No idea why the Japanese specifies "inner reaches of Hyrule", but that expression was carried over to NoA's manual story of FSA.
- 魔人 (majin), which means something like "sorcerer", is slightly different from the homonymous 魔神 (majin), "demon", which later is Vaati's title in all other sources. But instead of attaching importance to that change, we should think of it as an error or uncertainty on Nintendo's part.
- NoA added some extra crap about villages..ehh, more eloquence, I mean
- Just like I predicted a while ago: there is no mention of Vaati's palace, just his "abode" or "housing", which sounds quite makeshift.
- Now we actually hear a reason why the boy left to the forest: to seal away the sword! Also, he doesn't return to any potential villages.
- The people found the sword already sealed in the forest, and erected the well-known shrine around it which is in all later sources called the Sacred Precincts of the Four Sword. Their motivation to enshrine it seems to be more fear than reverence... Well, let's just say awe, that covers both.
- Japanese is very clear about the fact that protecting the Four Sword is just one of several duties Princess Zelda has. That makes it more comfortable for the shrine to possibly be present during other games, though unseen.
- I find Zelda's direct speech quite cheesy, but what can I do.

[Impossible]

Well, it's not overly useful, but it is kind of interesting.

Excuse my forgetfulness, but did that passage from TP I posted at the end of page 5 ever get translated? I recall it taking a while to finish, and you said that it was nearly done or something, but now you've moved on to various other things and other games, so I wasn't sure if you'd forgotten it.

And I know I've left some various topics and discussions unfinished... My life is really full up at the moment. I intended to release an updated version of my document by now as well, but it's on hold for a while. Maybe until the TWW translations I'm most interested in are done, then I can add something substantial.

[Jumbie]

Excuse my forgetfulness, but did that passage from TP I posted at the end of page 5 ever get translated? I recall it taking a while to finish, and you said that it was nearly done or something, but now you've moved on to various other things and other games, so I wasn't sure if you'd forgotten it.

I haven't forgotten it, and in addition to you, I also owe it to Raian and a ZUer. But well... now TWW and these new things have come in between^^;

And I know I've left some various topics and discussions unfinished... My life is really full up at the moment. I intended to release an updated version of my document by now as well, but it's on hold for a while. Maybe until the TWW translations I'm most interested in are done, then I can add something substantial.

Ah I see, I was wondering where you had gone. Hopefully it gets more relaxed soon.
Mhm, you should probably await that. The question is, TWW or TP first? There's still 3 or 4 texts from TP to look at, too.

[Raien]

I haven't forgotten it, and in addition to you, I also owe it to Raian and a ZUer. But well... now TWW and these new things have come in between^^;

As far as I'm aware, this is the last TP quote which is deemed to have any timeline importance, so it might be more suitable to just get it out of the way and then focus the discussion on TWW.

I find it amazing that people can still argue about what a word could mean or what a word might have been. Its sooooo funny, that the line "The Triforce can not judge between good and evil" can't be any clearer, yet one could make it sound so ambiguous.

If a word has several meanings, which can be the case in both Japanese and English, then we should discuss possible meanings if some of them are doubtful. If I recall correctly, you have been effectively arguing that because the Triforce cannot judge good and evil, that it cannot recognise good and evil, and yet the Essence of the Triforce shows recognition. So with that possibility eliminated, judgment can either refer to the Triforce being unable to independently react to an evil heart or to some kind of cosmic court, as MPS suggested, in which the souls are ultimately judged.

Anyway, everyone else has agreed on the explanation which I put forward in my previous post. It fits all arguments, including yours, so I don't know why you can't just accept it and move on.

Edited by Raian, 21 June 2008 - 10:21 AM.

[NM87]

In many Japanese games, manga and anime, there's actually a large difference between the various titles for these sort of things. Not a good example to pick on if you're gonna complain about nitpickin'.

Besides, if you don't know the difference between a priest and a sorcerer, you're having a mental lapse somewhere.

It still doesn't matter.

Anyway, everyone else has agreed on the explanation which I put forward in my previous post. It fits all arguments, including yours, so I don't know why you can't just accept it and move on.

I didn't intend for that post to be directed toward you personally. I didn't respond to your last explanation. I accepted that last explanation. I didn't try to argue with you about it, did I? So what is the problem/issue/concern.

...the Essence of the Triforce could be the goddesses themselves remember.

Edited by NM87, 21 June 2008 - 10:41 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

1) Wizard, Sorcerer, and Priest are not the same thing. Deal with it. Though "Sorcerer" isn't inheritly negative.

2) I personally doubt the Essence of the Triforce is the Goddesses, since it refers to itself as "I" and not "We".

[NM87]

1) Wizard, Sorcerer, and Priest are not the same thing. Deal with it. Though "Sorcerer" isn't inheritly negative.

2) I personally doubt the Essence of the Triforce is the Goddesses, since it refers to itself as "I" and not "We".

1) I understand they are not the same thing, but it still doesn't matter.
2) Maybe they were speaking as one essence? I don't know.

[Fyxe]

It still doesn't matter.

And what, pray tell, does?

[NM87]

It still doesn't matter.

And what, pray tell, does?

...nothing? I'm just not seeing a difference if we call Agahnim a priest, wizard or sorcerer. He still is the same old same old. Maybe someone can point it out to me instead of just claiming it is significant.

[Raien]

"Priest" infers a connection to God/the Gods, and a "Wizard/Sorceror" controls magic undefined in its nature (there can be good wizards and evil wizards). Agahnim's first action was to save Hyrule from a mysterious calamity, so I think the Hylians connected the nature of his magic to the benevolence of the goddesses. It was only when Agahnim was revealed to be evil that the "priest" title was dropped.

Edited by Raian, 21 June 2008 - 12:25 PM.

[NM87]

"Priest" infers a connection to God/the Gods, and a "Wizard/Sorceror" controls magic undefined in its nature (there can be good wizards and evil wizards). Agahnim's first action was to save Hyrule from a mysterious calamity, so I think the Hylians connected the nature of his magic to the benevolence of the goddesses. It was only when Agahnim was revealed to be evil that the "priest" title was dropped.

That does give a meaningful purpose to the debate of his title, but I think NOA got it right from the beginning. Calling him a Wizard and all. The explanation you give for him being a Priest to the Hylians is great, but never implied, even though I would support it anyway as it goes hand in hand with your benevolence theory. Even so, it doesn't really matter what we call him, and my point was we shouldn't get hung up on what he was. If you claim the Hylians called him Priest - that?s just what they called him, not what he really was.

Basically, in the old ALTTP Manual Translation, they made a big deal about the word and now its coming up again. It has always bothered me.

[Impossible]

Mhm, you should probably await that. The question is, TWW or TP first? There's still 3 or 4 texts from TP to look at, too.

I'd say if there's anything important left in TP, get it out of the way so you don't have too many games to worry about at once. But obviously, some major scenes from TWW (like the last few) are a priority, too.

[Jumbie]

...nothing? I'm just not seeing a difference if we call Agahnim a priest, wizard or sorcerer. He still is the same old same old. Maybe someone can point it out to me instead of just claiming it is significant.

The reason Agahnim was given his high position at Hyrule's court is that he was regarded as a second coming of the Seven Sages. The sages in Zelda are close to the gods, so that's why he is called a priest. As you can see, it certainly does matter.

In any case, it's a difference in text, and differences need to be pointed out, whether they're small or big. Simple as that.

And please, stop the complaints. I'm aware that you couldn't care less about my work, but please don't make this place look untidy with uncalled-for taunting. You've chosen to value your own fanfic over factual knowledge, going as far as ignoring insight we got from the translations, so, good luck to you.

[Raien]

If you claim the Hylians called him Priest - that’s just what they called him, not what he really was.

Thanks for stating the obvious, Captain Obvious. No one in this topic suggested that Agahnim was a real priest. He was a sorceror, but the Hyrulians referred to him as a priest because Agahnim presented himself as a priest by saving Hyrule from the mysterious calamity.

Even if a title is fake, it still means something to the story.

[NM87]

You've chosen to value your own fanfic over factual knowledge, going as far as ignoring insight we got from the translations, so, good luck to you.

That has really taken its toll on you hasn't it? I'm starting to think you care about it even more than I do. If its breaking your heart I did no respond to the translation here is my response: I like the Zethar/Johan translation better. (who's to say they were wrong and your translations are more credible)

About Agahnim, I wasn't complaining about your translation of that word specifically, Zethar & Johan also called him a Priest, and even back then I really didn't see the big deal, other than a simple anecdote in the story, which means absolutely nothing aside from what the people think.

Oh and Raian: Ok?

[Arturo]

It's not like he began the debate on wizard/priest/sorcerer. You were the one who started saying nonsense about the different titles of Agahnim. Yes, they are just titles, it's not like hey mean much, but priest and sorcerer are not the same at all.

And as far as I know there's only one contradiction between what Jumbie has said and what Zethar and Johan translation said. Translations that you don't seem to have read, because there's no such a thing as the "Zethar/Johan" translation. They are two independent translations, which have some slight differences with each other, as does Jumbie's.

And with this I am done. You have the right to believe more whichever translation you like more. But you don't have the right to be disdainful about anyone's work. It's a matter of respect. So please, drop it. If you have nothing positive to say about someone's work, say nothing.

And Jumbie, please don't answer to that certain post. I don't want another controversy.

Let's finish the argument now.

Edited by Arturo, 22 June 2008 - 05:12 PM.

[Raien]

Sooo... any more translations, Jumbie?

[Jumbie]

On our way to the Zant quote, we're slowly proceeding through the Twilight Realm. This is Midna at the start:

なあ、[Link]・・・最後のわがままを聞いてくれないか？
So, Link? Would you mind one last selfishness?
Um, listen, Link. Can I ask you one last selfish favor?

どんな理由があったにしろ、ワタシは一度　この影の世界から逃げ出したんだ・・・
Regardless of what my reasons may have been, I once fled this Shadow World?
Regardless of what my reasons may have been, I once abandoned this world.

自分を長として認め、慕ってくれた　影の人達を残して・・・
Leaving behind the Shadow People who declared me their ruler and adored me?
I left behind the Twili. Those who had followed me? Who considered me their ruler.

今も残された人達は、苦しみながらも　この世界で助けが来ると信じてる・・・
The people who even now, as they remain here suffering, believe that help will come for this world?
Even now, as they remain here suffering, they believe that help will come for this world.

それなのに、助けに来たのが　こんな醜い姿をした怪物だと知ったら・・・がっかりするだろ？
However, if they knew that the one coming to help is such a hideously-shaped monster? Don't you think they'd feel let down?
But if they were to see that the only help for them was a hideous little imp? Don't you think they'd feel let down?

だから、もう少しの間だけでいいんだ　迷惑かもしれないけど・・・[Link]の影になってていいかな？
So, it'd be good for just a little bit longer, though it's possibly a bother, but? could I become Link's shadow?
It's only for a little bit longer? Do you mind if I continue to hide as your shadow while you're in human form?

ゴメンな・・・
I'm sorry?
I'm sorry.

Oddly enough, Midna addresses Link using the third person here... But it has happened before.

[Link]、待ってくれ！　彼等には手を出さないでやってくれ
Link, wait! Don't use violence on them.
Wait! This guy isn't an enemy, [Link].

ワタシ達を襲ってこないってことは、まだ人の心までは　失ってないはず・・・
Given the fact that they're not attacking us, they should still be people at heart?
They might look different, but? they're inhabitants of this world? They're my people.

ザント・・・ワタシは奴を絶対に許さない！
Zant? I will most certainly not let him get away!
Zant? How could he?

It's curious that this quote differs so much between the versions. NoA used it to point out that those monsters are actually the Twilis, whereas NoJ expected everyone to already know that much (from the cutscene at the desert entrance). Well, the Japanese texts hardly ever spoon-feed the players!

[Raien]

Thanks, Jumbie. I think the last line from NOA, "Zant... How could he...", was a nice touch and added a good bit of emotional drama to that aspect of the story. It didn't really hurt the story, so I think it worked.

[Duke Serkol]

I think it actually makes more sense to emphasize why these are different from regular shadow assassins (who also were originally Twili). I for one am glad to finally have an explanation of that.

[SOAP]

Perhaps she addresses Link in the third person when referring to him in his human form?

[Jumbie]

Let's get all of Midna's speeches in the Twilight Realm out of the way now in one go. They yield surprising information!

ザントに好き勝手されて　ここも随分　変わってしまったよ・・・
Zant has changed this place extremely at his leisure, too…!
Zant had his way with this place… So much has changed…

姿は現せないけど、皆を助けたいんだ・・・　力を貸してほしい、[Link]
I'm not showing my appearance, but I want to save everyone… I wish that you lend me your power, [Link].
I can't show myself to them, but I want to save everyone I can… Please help me, [Link].

[Link]、急ごう！
[Link], hurry!
[Link], hurry!

ここの皆、まだ完全に　影の魔物になった訳じゃない
It's not the case that everyone here has completely transformed into shadow monsters yet.
My people are still not true beasts.

ザントを見つけ出して、仲間を元に戻してやりたいんだ・・・
I want to track down Zant and bring my mates back to normal…
If we can defeat Zant, there still might be time to save everyone!

[Link]、気をつけな・・・　この中では、光の者の姿ではいられないよ
[Link], be careful… People of the light cannot be inside this!
[Link], be careful…

この黒い霧は、ザントが魔力で作り出した　光を吸い取る影の結晶・・・
This black fog is the light-absorbing shadow crystals that Zant magically produced…
This black fog is made up of shadow crystals created by Zant. They blot out light…

精霊の光を奪い、ハイラルを　トワイライトに変えていた張本人なんだ
It's responsible for stealing the light from the spirits and turning Hyrule into Twilight.
He's responsible for stealing the light from the spirits and turning your world into twilight…

元の姿に戻りたいなら、霧を抜け出してから　ワタシに言いな？
If you want to return to your normal state, tell me so after slipping out of the fog.
But he's not all-powerful. We're prepared too. I can return you to your normal state whenever you need me, so don't worry, OK?

This part requires a note. Here we get fundamental information about the Twilight which has been totally lost in the NoA version:
- Midna explains the black fog, the shadow crystals created by Zant, while he himself is actually not of concern in this quote. First she says they absorb light, then she says they are responsible for stealing Hyrule's light. It certainly makes sense, and we never got to see it because NoA thought the quote was about Zant!
- She also adds that light-dwellers should not touch the fog. But hey, doesn't this mean that light-dwellers could walk in the Twilight Realm without problems? I do think so. The shadow crystals obviously are what turns light-dwellers into spirits, and since Midna just said they are the cause of Twilit Hyrule, this supports that Hyrulean Twilight is dark and dangerous, whereas the normal Twilight Realm is not. I've already shown a while ago that this may go vice versa for Twilis in the Light World.
- The shadow crystals, 影の結晶, look very similar to the name of the Fused Shadows, 影の結晶石 = Shadow Crystal Stone. This may mean that the Fused Shadows were made of petrified shadow crystals.

この世界を照らす光・・・ソルだよ
It's the light that illuminates this world… a Sol!
That shining sphere illuminates this world. It's called a Sol.

ハイラルの光の輝きとは　随分　違うだろ？
It's entirely different from the radiance of Hyrule's light, don't you think?
It's like the sun of your world, [Link].

だけど・・・ソルの力は、この世界の生命の源　パワーそのものなんだ
However… the power of the Sol is the very source of life in this world.
The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world… It is pure power.

[Link]、このソルを　この世界の入口にいた、仲間の元に　運んでやってくれないか？
[Link], would you take this Sol to my former mates at the entrance to this world?
Would you take this Sol to the Twili at the entrance to this world? Please, [Link]!

I won't have to point out the glaring difference here Isn't NoA's ignorance simply astounding?

ソルは　この世界を照らす　太陽みたいなものなんだ
The Sols are like suns that illuminate this world.
The Sols were like the suns that illuminate this world.

それが失われたから、みんな　あんな姿に・・・
Once they were lost, everyone changed into those forms…
Once they were lost, everyone began to transform…

はやく助けてやらなきゃ！
If we don't save them quickly…!
We've got to save them quickly…

[Link]、ありがとう・・・　お陰で仲間を元の姿に戻してやれたよ
Thank you, [Link]… Because of you, my mates were reverted to their original forms!
Thank you, [Link]… Because of you, these Twili returned to normal.

すごい・・・　ソルの力が　剣に宿ったんだ・・・
Awesome… The power of the Sols dwells in your sword…
Amazing… The power of the Sols has been transferred to your sword…

この世界の守護神も　味方してくれてる！
The guardian deities of this world are on our side, too!
The guardian deities of my world are on our side, too!

やっぱり、[Link]は　選ばれし者・・・真の勇者なんだ！
After all you're the chosen one, Link… A true hero!
You really are the chosen one, [Link]… A true hero!

- A hotly debated line finally gets examined - what's really up with those guardian deities? First thing, Midna does refer to the Sols. But! "Guardian deity", 守護神, is not to be taken literally. It's the same expression that's also used for the bosses in AoL, the Giants in MM, and in general Japanese can simply refer to a lucky charm. Or in other words, inanimate objects, which I guess the Sols to be since they're counterparts of Hyrule's inanimate sun.
- And a little irony was lost: Midna in fact speaks as if she had always been convinced that Link is a true hero, contrary to how she taunted him earlier on.^^

Okay, this is already such a long post so I have to keep the rest for tomorrow.

Edited by Jumbie, 28 June 2008 - 10:05 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Good, that settles that.

Oh yeah, about NoA...

It's entirely different from the radiance of Hyrule's light, don't you think?
It's like the sun of your world, [Link].

Wow, you gotta love that one.

[Raien]

- She also adds that light-dwellers should not touch the fog. But hey, doesn't this mean that light-dwellers could walk in the Twilight Realm without problems? I do think so. The shadow crystals obviously are what turns light-dwellers into spirits, and since Midna just said they are the cause of Twilit Hyrule, this supports that Hyrulean Twilight is dark and dangerous, whereas the normal Twilight Realm is not. I've already shown a while ago that this may go vice versa for Twilis in the Light World.

This is perfect. I've had difficulty explaining why Link does not transform in the Twilight Realm and I finally have it! At last...

However, I would not say that it is vice versa for the Twilis in the Light World; the black fog is attacking the Twili as well, remember. I compare the Twili's situation to people living in caves for hundreds of years. Over time, their bodies change to adapt to the dark surroundings (like the Dark Tribe became Twili over time) and trying to venture out would leave them exposed to the dangers of sunlight that their bodies are no longer protected against.

- The shadow crystals, 影の結晶, look very similar to the name of the Fused Shadows, 影の結晶石 = Shadow Crystal Stone. This may mean that the Fused Shadows were made of petrified shadow crystals.

At the very least, it tells us that both the Fused Shadows and the Shadow Crystals are made from Darkness, which we already know.

- A hotly debated line finally gets examined - what's really up with those guardian deities? First thing, Midna does refer to the Sols. But! "Guardian deity", 守護神, is not to be taken literally. It's the same expression that's also used for the bosses in AoL, the Giants in MM, and in general Japanese can simply refer to a lucky charm. Or in other words, inanimate objects, which I guess the Sols to be since they're counterparts of Hyrule's inanimate sun.

What about the Great Deku Tree and the Light Spirits? Is the expression used with them?

Edited by Raian, 29 June 2008 - 05:54 AM.