1600 replies to this topic

[Jumbie]

LionHarted, on Jun 9 2008, 01:51 AM, said:

I also think it appropriate considering this line:

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"Seemed to have been sealed away by the hero" (JP)

Knowing you would bring that up, I considered to rebut it right in the notes, but I was lazy. Anyway, we know that Ganon was sealed away because OoT and this TWW intro state it. I honestly find NoA's line, "all thought had been forever sealed away", the luckier solution. Instead of "seemed", it's also correct to translate かに見えた as "was thought to". All we lack in the Japanese line is the word "forever", and apparently that was meant to go without saying.

[LionHarted]

Jumbie, on Jun 8 2008, 06:38 PM, said:

Knowing you would bring that up, I considered to rebut it right in the notes, but I was lazy. Anyway, we know that Ganon was sealed away because OoT and this TWW intro state it. I honestly find NoA's line, "all thought had been forever sealed away", the luckier solution. Instead of "seemed", it's also correct to translate かに見えた as "was thought to". All we lack in the Japanese line is the word "forever", and apparently that was meant to go without saying.

I was hoping it might leave an opening as to how he escaped (a back door, or something that would prevent him from being completely sealed).

I guess it's still a mystery for now.

[Vertiboy]

Hey, I've been away for a while, so excuse me if my post is a little off-topic.

I have a simple question about the Oracle games. In Japanese, what does Zelda say when she meets Link? I don't know if this question has already been asked, but I couldn't find it or anything similar when I searched.

[Hero of Legend]

Jumbie said

You think so? In that case you'll be in for a surprise...

Let me guess; you're refering to when the KoRL first tells Link about Ganondorf - I didn't need the Japanese version to figure out what "The emperor of the dark realm" meant.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 09 June 2008 - 09:09 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

Jumbie, on Jun 9 2008, 01:20 AM, said:

From all the texts I've seen "revived" appear in, I've learned that it most often doesn't imply death. It means to return from a long state of incapacitation, which can be applied to living things just as well as to objects.

That's good. It's the only way the word can make sense in this context.

[FDL]

Nice work Jumbie! I have a question about one of the lines though. When it says Ganondorf used "evil forces" to take over Hyrule does it mean his army? Or does it mean it in a different sense? Because I had a theory about his armies that may involve this quote if it is in fact talking about his army. Thanks.

[Jumbie]

Vertiboy, on Jun 9 2008, 12:29 PM, said:

I have a simple question about the Oracle games. In Japanese, what does Zelda say when she meets Link? I don't know if this question has already been asked, but I couldn't find it or anything similar when I searched.

I'd like to know that as much as you, but sadly there is no Japanese textdump of the Oracles (nor one of TMC)
Not even on YouTube do they have Japanese walkthroughs of Oracles, it's such a shame...

Hero of Legend, on Jun 9 2008, 03:44 PM, said:

Let me guess; you're refering to when the KoRL first tells Link about Ganondorf - I didn't need the Japanese version to figure out what "The emperor of the dark realm" meant.

Spot-on.

Fierce Deity Link, on Jun 9 2008, 10:21 PM, said:

Nice work Jumbie! I have a question about one of the lines though. When it says Ganondorf used "evil forces" to take over Hyrule does it mean his army? Or does it mean it in a different sense? Because I had a theory about his armies that may involve this quote if it is in fact talking about his army. Thanks.

Well, 悪しき力 literally means "evil power", but power is the same as force in Japanese, so I went with the latter. NoA's "onslaught of evil" is a good solution. Anyway, due to Ganondorf's army appearing frozen in Hyrule Castle, we know that this interpretation is correct.

[FDL]

Jumbie, on Jun 9 2008, 04:58 PM, said:

Well, 悪しき力 literally means "evil power", but power is the same as force in Japanese, so I went with the latter. NoA's "onslaught of evil" is a good solution. Anyway, due to Ganondorf's army appearing frozen in Hyrule Castle, we know that this interpretation is correct.

Oh, sorry, I forgot it was used twice. I meant the first instance of that phrase when it's describing Ganondorf's conquering of Hyrule in OoT. Am I to assume that your explanation still stands? Because I think it'd help the theory I have to know whether his army is given some credit for his being King for seven years or not.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 09 June 2008 - 05:53 PM.

[Jumbie]

Yes, it still stands regardless of that.

[Raien]

What's that about Ganondorf's army conquering Hyrule in OoT?

[FDL]

Jumbie, on Jun 10 2008, 12:27 AM, said:

Yes, it still stands regardless of that.

Alright, good to know.

Raian, on Jun 10 2008, 08:28 AM, said:

What's that about Ganondorf's army conquering Hyrule in OoT?

I had a theory that part of what the Triforce of Power granted him was an enhancement of his ability to create/control/ressurect monsters(yes, I know he uses the SR in some games, but not neccessarily for all of the monsters, such as Volvagia). Anyway, it is my belief that the time in which he was building his army of monsters to invade Hyrule(which he used to destroy the castle and the town) he was stopped in the TP timeline. This translation seems to agree with the idea that his army of is part of the reason for his success and that he didn't single-handedly destroy the castle town as soon as he got the ToP as some people have claimed when attempting to disprove what I said previously about the Triforce actually being in TP. Now, I'm not saying the military might is the only, or even the primary type, of strength that the ToP embodies, just that it's one thing. This quote seems to agree with at least that.

[Raien]

It would be logical that if Ganondorf had an army of demons in every Zelda game, that he should do so in TP. I've always thought the Light World monsters in TP were his minions.

Edited by Raian, 10 June 2008 - 11:44 AM.

[LionHarted]

To forward recent discussion on Ganondorf's abilities in OoT: I'd kind of like the Phantom Ganon speech from OoT to be translated. He seems to have created Phantom Ganon, but banishes him to another world through a portal. A similar portal appears when Nabooru is captured by the witches. What is this other world called in the Japanese? It seems to be tied to monsters.

[Raien]

LionHarted, on Jun 10 2008, 09:56 PM, said:

To forward recent discussion on Ganondorf's abilities in OoT: I'd kind of like the Phantom Ganon speech from OoT to be translated. He seems to have created Phantom Ganon, but banishes him to another world through a portal. A similar portal appears when Nabooru is captured by the witches. What is this other world called in the Japanese? It seems to be tied to monsters.

It was also the portal that Phantom Ganon used to escape the paintings. I think the portal sprite is simply being re-used; this is the N64 after all.

[LionHarted]

It's quite possible, although that still leaves the question as to what this other world is.

[Jumbie]

LionHarted, on Jun 10 2008, 10:56 PM, said:

To forward recent discussion on Ganondorf's abilities in OoT: I'd kind of like the Phantom Ganon speech from OoT to be translated. He seems to have created Phantom Ganon, but banishes him to another world through a portal. A similar portal appears when Nabooru is captured by the witches. What is this other world called in the Japanese? It seems to be tied to monsters.

No problem:

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だが?　貴様が　倒したのは　所詮、オレの幻影に　すぎぬ?
However? what you've defeated was no more than an illusion/phantom of me, after all?
But you have defeated only my phantom?

?それにしても　不甲斐なき奴！　次元の狭間に　消え去れい！！
?Anyway, worthless one! Disappear in a dimensional gap!!
What a worthless creation that ghost was! I will banish it to the gap between dimensions!!

On another note, yesterday when checking old translations, I noticed that the second text I ever did, Ganondorf's execution, could be done much smoother nowadays. So I revised that post. There's no need to re-read it all though, just in one line I made a beginner's mistake (wrong word order) that I'd like to bring to your attention:

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だが、奴は気づいてはいなかった・・・
But he was not aware?
But he was blind?

力の持つ危うさを知らぬ者には必ず、隙がうまれることを・・・
Possessing such power, peril wasn't known to him at all, and thus was he caught off guard?
In all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger, and thus was he exposed, subdued, and brought to justice.

The bolded line wasn't so good. I know now that it has to read:

Quote

だが、奴は気づいてはいなかった・・・
But he was not aware?
But he was blind?

力の持つ危うさを知らぬ者には必ず、隙がうまれることを・・・
?that those who do not know the danger of wielding power will inevitably expose a weak point?
In all of his fury and might, he was blind to any danger, and thus was he exposed, subdued, and brought to justice.

The problem was this piece: 力の持つ危うさを知らぬ者, which is "person not knowing the danger of having power". On my first attempt I mixed up the words, as you can see.

Anyway, as soon as I saw "the danger of having power", I thought of Lanayru... Here's a line that wasn't included in my translation of Lanayru's speech:

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力というものが持つ危うさを知らぬ者は　やがてその力に、支配される
Those who do not know the danger of wielding the thing called power will, before long, be ruled by it.
Those who do not know the danger of wielding power will, before long, be ruled by it.

It begins the same, quite the surprise!
Now we have three reappearing quotes: both Ganondorf and the mages tried to establish dominion, both were ruled by their power (Midna also says 力に支配される (ruled by power) about their ancestors), and both didn't know the danger of having power. Do you think this could mean something? Maybe give new evidence for the infamous Gerudo=Twili theory?

And btw, sorry about that error. I was a beginner after all.

Edited by Jumbie, 10 June 2008 - 07:04 PM.

[LionHarted]

That seems rather like a throwback to Zelda's remark about Ganondorf after the first fight in OoT, that he didn't have a strong, righteous mind.

EDIT: Thanks for the translation. Looks like he might even just refer to a portal, not an actual world between dimensions.

And of course you were a beginner; that's why I expressed my misgivings about the older translations possibly being "sloppy." (Not, of course, implying that you were careless in your translations; simply that you lacked the finesse you have now.) =]

Edited by LionHarted, 10 June 2008 - 08:10 PM.

[Raien]

Thanks Jumbie. It seems to me that the inability to control power really means the inability to understand power and how other people are affected by power (because power is a relationship). All Ganondorf does is throw his power at Link, and he leaves weakpoints open for Link to attack. This sounds to me like power without wisdom; a sign of an unbalanced heart?

Edited by Raian, 10 June 2008 - 09:10 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Thanks, as always, Jumbie!!

Raian, on Jun 10 2008, 08:07 PM, said:

Thanks Jumbie. It seems to me that the inability to control power really means the inability to understand power and how other people are affected by power (because power is a relationship). All Ganondorf does is throw his power at Link, and he leaves weakpoints open for Link to attack. This sounds to me like power without wisdom; a sign of an unbalanced heart?

You seem to be stuck on one type of 'power,' being control over people.

There's also Power to do things.

Quote

This sounds to me like power without wisdom; a sign of an unbalanced heart?

I'm inclined to agree here.


In all, the whole controlling power vs. it controlling you reminds me of saidin from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. I'm sure it's a more common concept than I think it is.

[Raien]

CID Farwin, on Jun 11 2008, 07:21 AM, said:

You seem to be stuck on one type of 'power,' being control over people.

There's also Power to do things.

I know, but what Ganondorf is able to do is not relevant to the story until he actually uses that power to invade Hyrule. "Means to an end" is more relevant than the means alone because it drives the story.

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In all, the whole controlling power vs. it controlling you reminds me of saidin from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. I'm sure it's a more common concept than I think it is.

Certainly. I can remember an X-Men cartoon making the same statement; it appears to be a popular symbol to demonstrate power in evil hands.

[Hero of Legend]

This makes me think the virtues of the Triforce do not only apply to the use of the power of the gods: one needs to have all virtues in balance, or else it will lead to ones destruction. As for Power, that is obviously the virtue that is most often misused, and this harkens back to human greed being the catalyst for evil in the series (how one is being ruled by power, as TP says), which explains why such misuse is especially bad. It also seems to lead to overconfidence - a lack of wisdom - which explains why Ganondorf exposed his weak point.

I'm not sure what that weak point was, however...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 11 June 2008 - 10:17 AM.

[FDL]

Raian, on Jun 10 2008, 12:44 PM, said:

It would be logical that if Ganondorf had an army of demons in every Zelda game, that he should do so in TP. I've always thought the Light World monsters in TP were his minions.

I wasn't saying he didn't by then, I was just saying his preparations for his conquest of Hyrule the first time were stopped before he was able to build a full army.

[Jumbie]

LionHarted, on Jun 11 2008, 03:07 AM, said:

That seems rather like a throwback to Zelda's remark about Ganondorf after the first fight in OoT, that he didn't have a strong, righteous mind.

Ah, true.

Raian, on Jun 11 2008, 04:07 AM, said:

Thanks Jumbie. It seems to me that the inability to control power really means the inability to understand power and how other people are affected by power (because power is a relationship). All Ganondorf does is throw his power at Link, and he leaves weakpoints open for Link to attack. This sounds to me like power without wisdom; a sign of an unbalanced heart?

Yes. He lacks Wisdom because he does "not know", and having Courage would mean to "know the danger", so he wasn't appropriate for either, making him like a reckless fool, to pick that back up.

CID Farwin, on Jun 11 2008, 08:21 AM, said:

In all, the whole controlling power vs. it controlling you reminds me of saidin from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. I'm sure it's a more common concept than I think it is.

Doesn't it also appear in Lord of the Rings in some form? I might be mistaken...

Hero of Legend, on Jun 11 2008, 05:08 PM, said:

This makes me think the virtues of the Triforce do not only apply to the use of the power of the gods: one needs to have all virtues in balance, or else it will lead to ones destruction.

Definitely, just take Zant and the mages. (Well, and Ganondorf himself, since he didn't have the Triforce yet at the time that quote refers to.)

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As for Power, that is obviously the virtue that is most often misused, and this harkens back to human greed being the catalyst for evil in the series (how one is being ruled by power, as TP says), which explains why such misuse is especially bad. It also seems to lead to overconfidence - a lack of wisdom - which explains why Ganondorf exposed his weak point.

Right. And since ALttP, too, speaks about being ruled by greed, I say Ganondorf is bound to have an imbalanced heart in ALttP as well.

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I'm not sure what that weak point was, however...

I bet Nintendo didn't want to think about that, and that's why that line was left so unspecific.
But maybe we could draw inspiration from looking at how the mages and Zant got ruled by power?

[Raien]

The weakness changes with each incarnation; at no point did Ganon try to protect his tail in OoT, or his scar in TP.

[Hero of Legend]

Raian said

The weakness changes with each incarnation; at no point did Ganon try to protect his tail in OoT, or his scar in TP.

That's not what the Sages mean. "Weak point" is not meant to be taken literally. In their story, Ganondorf doesn't even have his scar yet.

Their point is that he was reckless and unaware of his danger, essentially saying that he picked a fight he couldn't win. That's what happens in the final battle as well; Ganondorf doesn't realize his danger and fails to recognize the power of the Master Sword. He is indeed a fool in TP.

This makes me wonder about ALttP, though. Jumbie is right about Ganon's greed, but in that game, he was still wise enough to fear Link. Maybe he had a more balanced heart after all...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 12 June 2008 - 07:58 AM.

[Raien]

Hero of Legend, on Jun 12 2008, 01:53 PM, said:

This makes me wonder about ALttP, though. Jumbie is right about Ganon's greed, but in that game, he was still wise enough to fear Link. Maybe he had a more balanced heart after all...

I didn't get the impression that Ganon feared Link in ALTTP; he recombined his soul after Agahnim's defeat, but he didn't suggest fear before the final battle.

[Hero of Legend]

Zelda says they have to defeat Ganon before he escapes to the Light World, or else they might never find him. But in the Dark World "you can find him wherever he runs." It is clear Ganon did not want to stick around and face Link unless he had to. Of course he didn't just throw down his arms once Link had him cornered. I never said he was a coward.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 12 June 2008 - 08:10 AM.

[Raien]

So Jumbie, got a new translation for us to peruse?

[Jumbie]

The other day I said I wanted to revisit a quote from ALttP's manual, because of this:

Quote

Hmm, the expression 勇気を知る者 (one who knows courage) totally reminds me of ALttP's 勇気を鍛える者 (one who trains/tempers courage)... In TWW it undoubtedly describes the hero, so wouldn't it make sense for the three titles in ALttP's manual to describe an evil one, a hero, and a wise one, respectively, as well? I feel that a re-translation of said paragraph is inevitable for me!^^

And yeah, I think it paid out to do so!

Now, what I translated contradicts the work of Johan and Zethar-II... I don't have the audacity to say they were "wrong", but we're dealing with a very subtle thing here, a grammatical form followed by a comma, which - according to previous examples that I had - is to be interpreted differently than the other translators said.
That part alone is responsible for my throwing around the order of words and even phrases. To reassure, I'd like other Japanese translators (I know you're here!) to check the sentence and consider my solution. That said, I'm confident of my translation because that particular complication resembles instances I had before.

Anyway, look at the quote now. I've added the other guys' translations.

Quote

トライフォースは、それぞれ「力を支配する者」「知恵を司る者」「勇気を鍛える者」の三つの紋章を持ち、その力を受け継ぐにふさわしい者が現れるまで、世界のどこかに ある聖地で輝き続けているそうです。
Jumbie: The Triforce would continue to shine in a sacred place that exists somewhere in the world, until persons would appear who had the three crests of, respectively, "one who rules power", "one who administers wisdom", and "one who trains/tempers courage", and who were suitable of inheriting this power.
Johan: Each part of the Triforce, "the Ruler of Power", "the Administrator of Wisdom" and "the Forger of Courage", carried a crest. Until the appearance of an appropiate person who would take over this force, it was located in a holy place somewhere in the world, shining continiously.
Zethar-II: The Triforce, respectively: "one who would Conquer Power," "one who would Govern Wisdom," and "one who would Temper Courage" held three different emblems. It would shine in the Sacred Realm, somewhere in the world, until one who was worthy of inheriting those powers appeared.
NoA: Although it was an inanimate object, the Triforce had the power to bestow three titles which gave the person who received them great powers: "The Forger of Strength", "The Keeper of Knowledge", and "The Juror of Courage". From its hiding place in the so-called Golden Land where the Gods placed it, the Triforce beckoned people from the outside world to seek it in the hope that someone worthy of these titles would find it.

As you can see, I went for a word-for-word approach so that the truth may be found.

Assuming my version is correct (please a Japanese translator adept in comma rules check it!), this would mean the following:
- The three descriptions apply to the bearer of the respective crest.
- "Persons" of course doesn't have to be in plural, but the presence of "respectively", together with what is shown in OoT and TP, makes the plural interpretation more likely.
- "One who" is expressed by the Kanji for "person", 者. While this could still refer to a Triforce piece in a metaphorical way, the resemblance of those descriptions with the thing from TWW's intro, 勇気を知る者 (one who knows courage), leads me to think the descriptions belong to the crest-bearers.
- 鍛える can both mean "to forge/temper", or "to train/study hard". The latter makes more sense to me.
- "This power" could refer to the Triforce, since it is the topic of the line, but perhaps also to the three crests (then rendered "these powers").
- To elaborate about the comma mentioned, it's the usual means to divide two attributes that describe the same noun. Therefore, "having the crests" and "being suitable of inherting this power" both refer to "person". So, I doubt that "having the crests" refers to the Triforce, but that's precisely where I need someone else's opinion.

At any rate, this sentence is very flexible to the rules established by later games, which is great!^^
(Also reminiscent of 紋章を持つ者が現れる ("The ones having the crests appear"), said by TP Ganondorf in his removed speech.)

Edited by Jumbie, 17 June 2008 - 04:19 AM.

[Raien]

Very nice, Jumbie. Not only does your translation make more sense, but it fits perfectly with OoT's legend of the Triforce.