1600 replies to this topic

[MikePetersSucks]

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I advertise symbolism because addressing symbolism actually forces theorists to think about the general meanings and not split hairs over the details. Dark clouds come in different forms and at different times, but what they represent to the people of Hyrule (an invasion of evil) is exactly the same.

Do you realize how much splitting hairs over details accurate and reliable symbolism requires?

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Of course. From what I can see, the Twilight Realm possesses a "nature" (best word I can think of right now) that exists independently of whether it is covered by Light or Darkness, and that atmosphere of Twilight has indeed covered Hyrule. However, it doesn't change the fact that living under the Twilight has caused people to feel fear (the children of Kakariko refer to it as a nightmare), which certainly does implicate an evil presence. But the nature of Dark Twilight is best explained in response to your next reply.

I figured it was just the "Light/Shadow dualism." Even if the Twilight is totally uncorrupted, a Light-Dweller won't feel "right" there. Also keep in mind that there were monsters eating people at the time that Kakariko quote was made.

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Also, Midna said that Ganondorf's magic could only be repulsed by the Sols' magic in the Master Sword, yet they were in the Light World.

When was this?

[Hero of Legend]

Jumbie said

Well, the Twilight Realm is called Shadow Realm, where there is perpetual "tasogare" (twilight), but the Twilight in Hyrule is called "Towairaito, area of shadows". Here, the usage of the English word "twilight" as a proper name seems to signify a certain artificiality to that world.

Oh right, I thought it was the other way around. Well that makes sense: The Shadow People live in the Shadow Realm. That it is "twilight" in Hyrule also makes sense if you think about the opening scene with Russl.

Raian said

But everything that is real exists for an ultimately deeper meaning or purpose

No offence, but you are deluded if you think Nintendo thought of a deeper meaning behind *everything* that happens in the series. Most of the stuff that is symbolic is just standard fare, and has no 'deeper meaning' beyond what little it has in every work of fiction. Why light and darkness are good/evil is a good example of this.

More importantly, you try to squeeze this symbolism into things that were not meant to be symbolic. Fact of the matter is, when Nintendo decided to use 'black clouds' as a means to portray the Twilight in TP, they didn't think "Symbolism!" they thought "How can we best cover the land in Twilight? Oh, yeah, a cloud!" As I have told you, if you want clouds that exist for symbolic purposes, look at the clouds before you enter Ganondorf's throne room, or any other case where such clouds are not an essential part of the plot.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 06 June 2008 - 03:47 PM.

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on Jun 6 2008, 08:13 PM, said:

Do you realize how much splitting hairs over details accurate and reliable symbolism requires?

I can't think of any times in which I've been splitting hairs to establish symbolism so far.

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I figured it was just the "Light/Shadow dualism." Even if the Twilight is totally uncorrupted, a Light-Dweller won't feel "right" there. Also keep in mind that there were monsters eating people at the time that Kakariko quote was made.

This is true, but didn't the Kakariko bomb-maker implicate that an old woman had been transformed into a shadow beast? It certainly implies that the corruption is occurring even to the spirits of the Hyrulians.

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When was this?

Let Puppet Zelda hit you during the final battle, and Midna will regain consciousness and tell you.

Hero of Legend, on Jun 6 2008, 09:43 PM, said:

No offence, but you are deluded if you think Nintendo thought of a deeper meaning behind *everything* that happens in the series. Most of the stuff that is symbolic is just standard fare, and has no 'deeper meaning' beyond what little it has in every work of fiction. Why light and darkness are good/evil is a good example of this.

Quick question, have you read my Symbolism topic? Because I feel that one particular section addresses your argument well:

I recently began watching Disney's The Lion King in order to the find the things that made the film such a success, and what the writers said in the commentaries was that the general public were especially emotionally responsive to the symbolism present in the story. For example, when Simba questioned his connection to his father, Rafiki showed Simba his father's appearance in the water and said, "Your father lives in you.", and that spiritual connection between father and son meant more to the audience than the concept of a shared gene pool would have done. And so if symbolism is so important to people, it is not very surprising that the Zelda series, which is entirely built on symbolism, has created such an emotional reaction from the general public. It's not a large step to take from "natural king of the Pridelands" to "natural hero of Hyrule", after all. And so I think it would be more in line with the developers if we start looking at the symbolism inherent in the Zelda mythology, as opposed to discussing soulless scientific facts.

Point is, if symbolism has a more powerful emotional impact than cold-hearted logic, then we have every reason to believe that the developers used symbolism to bring out this reaction from the audience. And I would bet my entire Zelda collection that the reason why the series is so emotionally-provoking is because of symbolism, because it certainly isn't because of narrative complexity like the Final Fantasy series. And the use of symbolism isn't even something specific to Nintendo; symbolism is central to the myths from which all narratives have taken inspiration from because it is well known that audiences identify with it.

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More importantly, you try to squeeze this symbolism into things that were not meant to be symbolic. Fact of the matter is, when Nintendo decided to use 'black clouds' as a means to portray the Twilight in TP, they didn't think "Symbolism!" they thought "How can we best cover the land in Twilight? Oh, yeah, a cloud!" As I have told you, if you want clouds that exist for symbolic purposes, look at the clouds before you enter Ganondorf's throne room, or any other case where such clouds are not an essential part of the plot.

Why cannot something essential to the plot possess symbolism? By that logic, Light and Darkness can't possess symbolism because they're essential to the plot. The fact is that it has been established in all forms of media that dark clouds convey the presence of evil. Many Disney examples come to mind, like when Scar rules Pride Rock, when Ursula takes King Trident's power, when Jafar grants his wish to be Sultan, etc. And then there's The Matrix Revolutions, in which dark clouds appear upon Smith's corruption of the Matrix.

When Zelda first revealed Twilight, she presented it as an invasion of evil, in which the people of Hyrule were living in fear. To assume that the dark clouds were not related to this representation makes it sound like the Zelda writers just stumbled upon the symbolism by accident. And yet the symbolic importance of dark clouds has been central to storytelling for years, including previous Zelda games. It would be silly to assume the writers were not aware of the implications that have been so clearly put in place.

Edited by Raian, 06 June 2008 - 05:38 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Raian said

To assume that the dark clouds were not related to this representation makes it sound like the Zelda writers just stumbled upon the symbolism by accident.

Exactly. It was an accident - a second thought. The reason I say this is very simple: Twilight is not simply a 'dark clouds in the sky' message, unlike every single one of the example's you mentioned. In fact, it's not even a real cloud. Therefore, yes, your claims of symbolism are misdirected.

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And I would bet my entire Zelda collection that the reason why the series is so emotionally-provoking is because of symbolism, because it certainly isn't because of narrative complexity like the Final Fantasy series. And the use of symbolism isn't even something specific to Nintendo; symbolism is central to the myths from which all narratives have taken inspiration from because it is well known that audiences identify with it.

I don't think there is any huge difference between the old (good) Final Fantasies and the more recent Zeldas in terms of narrative complexity. But more importantly, the notion that those games would not make use of symbolism to (at least) the same extent as Zelda games is laughable. You have yourself established that the use of symbolism is a very common narative tehnique. Ergo, if you think Zelda is anything special, you should look to something else for the cause.

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Why cannot something essential to the plot possess symbolism? By that logic, Light and Darkness can't possess symbolism because they're essential to the plot.

That's not what I said. Because the cloud of twilight is an important part of the plot, we cannot assume the main reason the creators included it was to convey a symbolic message to the player. Moreover, since the Twilight does not appear as the typical evil clouds do, there is absolutely no reason for us to think it is such a cloud.

[Raien]

Hero of Legend, on Jun 7 2008, 12:09 AM, said:

Exactly. It was an accident - a second thought.

Here's the thing which I don't think you understand. The audience is not ultimately interested in the sequence of events; they are interested in the mood that surrounds these events. A scene in a film performed by a bad actor, or with bad lighting, or bad editing, will be criticised for breaking the mood. The same applies to video games in which the same properties of lighting, design and music must be considered for establishing the mood, and thus, developers will always consider and reconsider symbols as part of this process. The Twilight Realm was once black-and-white before it was decided that muddy colours created a more effective mood, and familiar symbols like the dark clouds will always be kept in mind for this same purpose. In other words, there is absolutely no way that the Zelda developers would have missed something so obvious because it's a core part of their jobs to account for these things.

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The reason I say this is very simple: Twilight is not simply a 'dark clouds in the sky' message, unlike every single one of the example's you mentioned. In fact, it's not even a real cloud. Therefore, yes, your claims of symbolism are misdirected.

But Zelda refers to the Twilight sky as a black cloud, and if it is not empirically a black cloud (something which I don't agree with, but I'm running with it to make the point), then that single reference can only be symbolic.

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That's not what I said. Because the cloud of twilight is an important part of the plot, we cannot assume the main reason the creators included it was to convey a symbolic message to the player.

Why can't it do BOTH!? Why can't a design be empirical and symbolic? More importantly, why wouldn't a designer choose a design that served both the empirical needs and could emotionally draw the audience into the narrative at the same time?

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Moreover, since the Twilight does not appear as the typical evil clouds do, there is absolutely no reason for us to think it is such a cloud.

You're using slight differences in detail to argue that a general meaning cannot exist? That's like saying Love has no general meaning because the slight differences in every relationship make that symbolism impossible. This is a ridiculous argument.

Edited by Raian, 06 June 2008 - 08:19 PM.

[Jumbie]

Raian, on Jun 6 2008, 11:41 PM, said:

This is true, but didn't the Kakariko bomb-maker implicate that an old woman had been transformed into a shadow beast? It certainly implies that the corruption is occurring even to the spirits of the Hyrulians.

I thought she was turned into a shadow beast by one of them.

[Raien]

Jumbie, on Jun 7 2008, 12:39 AM, said:

I thought she was turned into a shadow beast by one of them.

Indeed. This makes me wonder about the purpose of the spirit forms, since they only appear to be preliminary. Symbollically speaking, it could be that Darkness strips away the body to corrupt the soul (thus transforming into shadow beasts). Gameplay speaking, it could be allow Wolf Link to interact with the characters without them instinctively confronting him or hiding with fear. It's most probably the gameplay, but the developers could have tied it to symbolism.

Edited by Raian, 06 June 2008 - 06:49 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

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Here's the thing which I don't think you understand. The audience is not ultimately interested in the sequence of events; they are interested in the mood that surrounds these events. A scene in a film performed by a bad actor, or with bad lighting, or bad editing, will be criticised for breaking the mood. The same applies to video games in which the same properties of lighting, design and music must be considered for establishing the mood, and thus, developers will always consider and reconsider symbols as part of this process. The Twilight Realm was once black-and-white before it was decided that muddy colours created a more effective mood, and familiar symbols like the dark clouds will always be kept in mind for this same purpose. In other words, there is absolutely no way that the Zelda developers would have missed something so obvious because it's a core part of their jobs to account for these things.

Are you implying I?m not part of the audience? Granted, as a student of philosophy, I know the stupidity of the masses. However, it is clear your fancy-pansy education doesn?t account for everyone.

But no, that's not what I'm saying. Those that care about these things will not recognize symbolism that does not appear to be symbolism. I can't think of any other case where dark clouds have appeared in such a way as they did in TP, and I certainly did not make the connection you're after. Therefore, Nintendo is either more stupid than you think, or you are overanalyzing things as usual.

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But Zelda refers to the Twilight sky as a black cloud, and if it is not empirically a black cloud (something which I don't agree with, but I'm running with it to make the point), then that single reference can only be symbolic.

There is more than one meaning to the word 'cloud' It could be a dark rain cloud (potentially symbolic) or it could be a dark cloud of bees (not symbolic) or a dark cloud of twilight (not symbolic).

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Why can't it do BOTH!? Why can't a design be empirical and symbolic? More importantly, why wouldn't a designer choose a design that served both the empirical needs and could emotionally draw the audience into the narrative at the same time?

Because symbolism was clearly not the intent of that cloud. Can you imagine any other way TP could have played out in a remotely similar fashion without it being a cloud? I can't. It might have been a second thought, like I said, but it was a poor attempt if that was the case.

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You're using slight differences in detail to argue that a general meaning cannot exist? That's like saying Love has no general meaning because the slight differences in every relationship make that symbolism impossible. This is a ridiculous argument.

Love has no meaning, but okay, I'll run with this. What if it?s a flawed relationship? Say, one that is built only on sexual satisfaction. Will this 'love' carry the same meaning to the audience? I think not. So why should a cloud be different?

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Indeed. This makes me wonder about the purpose of the spirit forms, since they only appear to be preliminary. Symbollically speaking, it could be that Darkness strips away the body to corrupt the soul (thus transforming into shadow beasts).

That's not symbolism. It's called good old-fashioned empirical storytelling, and it's obviously true. Well, except I doubt it has anything to do with the ?corruption? of the body and soul. The shadow just possess them, like with ordinary enemies.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 07 June 2008 - 06:52 AM.

[Fyxe]

Hold it, what's this? What old woman? Where's this coming from?

[Arturo]

Hero of Legend, on Jun 7 2008, 01:41 PM, said:

Are you implying I’m not part of the audience? Granted, as a student of philosophy, I know the stupidity of the masses. However, it is clear your fancy-pansy education doesn’t account for everyone.

Granted, as a student, I thought someone would have taught you how to be minimally polite. I was wrong.

Not having a moderator continuously telling you what to do doesn't mean you can do whatever you want to.



And Fyxe, they are talking about this:

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Remember the lady from the
general store? Just one of those
things attacked her, and a whole
gang from town went to save her!
And what happened? She was
already gone, and there were
TWO monsters waitin'!
...You connectin' the dots? That
means that if we get attacked by
them, then we'll be...

It's said by Barnes, when they are hidden inside the Temple, in spirit form.

Edited by Arturo, 07 June 2008 - 07:05 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

Arturo said

Granted, as a student, I thought someone would have taught you how to be minimally polite. I was wrong.

Not having a moderator continuously telling you what to do doesn't mean you can do whatever you want to.

Hey, he threw his education in my face first. Then he changed it, but the point remains.

As for you, that's just great. That's the second time you have warned me for... no reason? If you look again, I'm sure you will notice I did not actually insult anyone on this forum with that line (which was intentional). Oh yes, maybe you care about the masses, who are not even here...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 07 June 2008 - 07:09 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

Raian, on Jun 6 2008, 11:41 PM, said:

Let Puppet Zelda hit you during the final battle, and Midna will regain consciousness and tell you.

Okay, this does it: the fact that most people did not get hit enough to trigger this event is the definitive proof that TP fails at final bosses (as if the fairies found everywhere were not enough...)

Edited by Duke Serkol, 07 June 2008 - 07:12 AM.

[Raien]

I can see that the debate about dark clouds is not going to go in any direction of than a flame-fest, so I'm going to drop that argument. But I would like to address the point made about education.

Everyone has those own interests which they can develop into specialist knowledge and apply to the Zelda timeline. For Jumbie, it's translations. For MPS, it's Japanese mythology (Disclaimer: I'm not saying that these are their only specialist interests, but they have been valuable to understanding the timeline). For me, I feel it's game development. I am a practical film student with an interest in the mechanics of the trade and the aspects of film that filmmakers focus on to get their audiences interested. This interest carries over to videogames, and I regularly read developer interviews to understand their thinking and their strategies.

My understanding of the timeline has always been shaped by my understanding of game development. For the last year, I've been asserting that individual storylines are more important than timeline connections because of developer interviews, and now with recent experience looking at the production of Disney animated films, it has become apparent that developers know that audiences are emotionally receptive to symbolism, and produce their films/games in accordance with this understanding. People who make zombie films will have at some stage studied the impact of body horror on their audiences. And as a result, I choose to focus my energies on symbolism in the Zelda series and explain it in depth. I am not looking for symbols that no one could ever see, but symbols that developers would regularly think about to approach their audiences. And yes, developers do think deeply about the symbols, and the general meanings. For example, you said in your previous post that love has no general meaning, but for the majority of the audience, love does have a general meaning, and the filmmakers/developers who want to be popular and make money will develop the symbols to cater to the majority. That's business.

If you think I'm "shoving my education in your face", then by all means, you can ignore everything I have to say on the subject. But I feel that what I have to offer can be important to understanding the storyline, and so I'm going to keep expressing my arguments so long as I feel they are relevant.

Edited by Raian, 07 June 2008 - 09:07 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

By all means, continue with what you're doing. For everything I disagree with, there's a ton that I deem to be the case and do not contest. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you about everything.

And as for your education, I only pointed that out because Arturo found it necessary to make a fuss about it, so I figured I might as well point out why I brought it up in the first place.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 07 June 2008 - 09:19 AM.

[Raien]

Hero of Legend, on Jun 7 2008, 03:19 PM, said:

By all means, continue with what you're doing. For everything I disagree with, there's a ton that I deem to be the case and do not contest. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you about everything.

Alright, I have to hold up my hand and say I was wrong on that count. I actually had a disclaimer in my Symbolism topic saying "Accept that people have different interpretations so we don't have flame fests." and I've typically gone and broken the rule. Consider that lesson learned.

[Arturo]

Hero of Legend, on Jun 7 2008, 02:07 PM, said:

Arturo said

Granted, as a student, I thought someone would have taught you how to be minimally polite. I was wrong.

Not having a moderator continuously telling you what to do doesn't mean you can do whatever you want to.

Hey, he threw his education in my face first. Then he changed it, but the point remains.

As for you, that's just great. That's the second time you have warned me for... no reason? If you look again, I'm sure you will notice I did not actually insult anyone on this forum with that line (which was intentional). Oh yes, maybe you care about the masses, who are not even here...

I am not God, I don't see everything, and since no-one collaborates, I depend solely on what I see. And I see you acting in a way I consider unacceptable. If he's done it before, that doesn't make it more acceptable. I honestly don't care about your excuses. I want you to act as you should act.


If you ever consider that someone's done something unacceptable, you've got a little option called "Report". Instead of making matters more difficult, you can actually help. And this works for everyone here. If you want this to work well, you cannot rely exclusively on moderators. All of you must collaborate.

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That's the second time you have warned me for... no reason?

Say this publicly once more, and I'll get you suspended for three days. And again, this works for everyone else here. iF you think you've been treated unfairly, you can PM me. But you cannot say I warn for no reason. I have better things to do than randomly warning people.



And this goes for everyone here, especially those that have been warned recently.

[Jumbie]

So, finally here it is, the first piece translated from our new TWW textdump. In an attempt to keep it chronological this time, I start with the intro legend:

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人々に語り継がれる神話の中に　こんな話が　あります。
Among the myths passed down by the people, there is the following story.
This is but one of the legends of which the people speak?

その昔、神々の力が眠るといわれた王国がありました。
Long ago, there existed a kingdom where the power of the gods was said to sleep.
Long ago, there existed a kingdom where a golden power lay hidden.

その国は、緑豊かな　美しいところでしたが
That country was a fair place rich in green.
It was a prosperous land blessed with green forests, tall mountains, and peace.

悪しき者に　目をつけられ　神々の力を　奪われてしまいました。
But an evil one coveted and then took the power of the gods.
But one day a man of great evil found the golden power and took it for himself?

悪しき力により王国は、闇につつまれ
Through evil forces, he covered the kingdom with darkness.
With its strength at his command, he spread darkness across the kingdom.

命運ここに尽きたかと思われた　その時
At the time when the hour of doom seemed at hand?
But then, when all hope had died, and the hour of doom seemed at hand?

緑衣を身にまとった若者が　何処からともなく　現れました。
?a youth clothed in green appeared as if from nowhere.
?a young boy clothed in green appeared as if from nowhere.

若者は　退魔の剣をふるい　悪しき者を封じ　王国に　光を取り戻したといいます。
Wielding the blade of demons' bane and sealing the evil one away, the youth is said to have restored light to the kingdom.
Wielding the blade of evil's bane, he sealed the dark one away and gave the land light.

時を越えてあらわれた若者を　民は「時の勇者」と呼び　称えました
Having emerged by crossing time, the youth was praisingly called "Hero of Time" by the people.
This boy, who traveled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Time.

若者の話は、言の葉で語り継がれ　やがて　伝説となった頃?
The youth's tale was passed down, and at length, when it became legend?
The boy's tale was passed down through generations until it became legend?

王国に　再び災いの嵐が吹き荒れました。
Again, a calamitous storm began to blow across the kingdom.
But then?a day came when a fell wind began to blow across the kingdom.

勇者により　封じられたかに見えた　あの悪しき者が
The evil one who seemed to have been sealed away by the hero?
The great evil that all thought had been forever sealed away by the hero?

地の底より　這い出してきたのです。
?crept forth from the depths of the earth.
?once again crept forth from the depths of the earth, eager to resume its dark designs.

王国の民は、時の勇者が　再び　現れてくれると信じていました。
The people of the kingdom believed that the Hero of Time would appear a second time.
The people believed that the Hero of Time would again come to save them.

しかし?　勇者が　現れることはありませんでした。
But? the hero did not appear.
?But the hero did not appear.

邪悪な力を　前にした彼らは　なすすべもなく　ただ祈るばかり
Faced by evil forces, they were at their wit's end, all they could do was pray.
Faced by an onslaught of evil, the people could do nothing but appeal to the gods.

ついに、みずからの命運を神々に、ゆだねることにしました。
Finally, they decided to entrust their fate to the gods themselves.
In their last hour, as doom drew nigh, they left their future in the hands of fate.

その後　王国が　どうなったのか?　知るものはいません。
What became of that kingdom afterwards?? None remain who know.
What became of that kingdom?? None remain who know.

国の記憶は　消えようとも　伝説は風に乗り　今も息づいています。
Even though the memory of the kingdom vanished, its legend survived blowing in the wind.
The memory of the kingdom vanished, but its legend survived on the wind's breath.

ある島では　男の子が大きくなると　緑の衣を着せ、祝う風習があります。
On a certain island, there is a custom when boys grow up to dress them in green clothes and celebrate them.
On a certain island, it became customary to garb boys in green when they came of age.

草原にわたる　新緑の風を　心にまとい　旋風のごとく　剣をうならせ「闇」を絶つ　あの伝説の若者のように　勇気を知る者になれと　願いをこめ?
Clothed in the spirit of the verdurous wind that sweeps the fields, whirring swords like a whirlwind to suppress "darkness", they are requested to become adepts at courage like that youth of legend?
Clothed in the green of fields, they aspired to find heroic blades and cast down evil. The elders wished only for the youths to know courage like the hero of legend?

Notes:
- The line "kingdom where the power of the gods was said to sleep" is the same as used by Zelda in TP. Later on in TWW, it reappears in the King's speech to Zelda.
The Japanese didn't carry over "golden power" from ALttP but went with "power of the gods" throughout.

- To whom it may concern: No mention of forests and mountains.

- OoT Link is correctly described as a youth or young man.

- It says he emerged by crossing time, probably referring to his absence for seven years.

- It is suggested the title "Hero of Time" was coined by the Hyrulians, although that seems to conflict with that title being known to Sheik and Kaepora long before the end of OoT.

- "Calamitous storm" is quite reminiscent of ALttP, where the Great Catastrophe is near and an evil air blows from the mountains.

- I'm not sure whether "grow up" is all that different from "come of age", but I think the former makes more sense in regard to a 12-year old.

- I had to throw the last two lines together because in Japanese those are either two grammatically incorrect half-sentences, or a long correct one. For some reason, it's unusually detailed for a Japanese sentence, even using such highly metaphorical words like "verdurous", which in fact explains the green colour choice for the Wind Element in TMC, and its similarity to the Deku Tree symbol. Apparently, wind and plant-life automatically have a connection in Zelda (seen again in the airborne Korogs, and Makar's being the Sage of Wind).

- I can only guess why "darkness" was put in quotation marks. Maybe to imply that to the people on the Great Sea, the symbolical connection between darkness and evil wasn't so obvious anymore?

- Hmm, the expression 勇気を知る者 (one who knows courage) totally reminds me of ALttP's 勇気を鍛える者 (one who trains/tempers courage)... In TWW it undoubtedly describes the hero, so wouldn't it make sense for the three titles in ALttP's manual to describe an evil one, a hero, and a wise one, respectively, as well? I feel that a re-translation of said paragraph is inevitable for me!^^

[Hero of Legend]

Ah, this is interesting. Good work, Jumbie! I'll comment a bit...

Jumbie said

- It is suggested the title "Hero of Time" was coined by the Hyrulians, although that seems to conflict with that title being known to Sheik and Kaepora long before the end of OoT.

This might be a little like the case with Aragorn. In case anyone doesn't know, he was destined to be King Elessar (Elfstone), which was also the title given to him by his people because of the green jewel he wore. The same could apply here. I suppose I should mention that I always saw a dual meaning in Link's title - he is the Hero of Time who traveled through time, but he is also the Hero of Time who is worthy of the Triforce. I say it's an appropriate title in either case.

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- "Calamitous storm" is quite reminiscent of ALttP, where the Great Catastrophe is near and an evil air blows from the mountains.

Yes, Ganon is shown to return from the mountains as well.

It's funny, NoA replaced one ALttP reference with another. By the way, do you think there is any truth in the legend that Ganon returned from the "depths of the earth"? Or is it just symbolic, as Raian would say?

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- I had to throw the last two lines together because in Japanese those are either two grammatically incorrect half-sentences, or a long correct one. For some reason, it's unusually detailed for a Japanese sentence, even using such highly metaphorical words like "verdurous", which in fact explains the green colour choice for the Wind Element in TMC, and its similarity to the Deku Tree symbol. Apparently, wind and plant-life automatically have a connection in Zelda (seen again in the airborne Korogs, and Makar's being the Sage of Wind).

Ah, that's interesting as well. The Wind Element is said to carry the seeds of life, but I didn't think it was so strongly connected to the ideas put forth in TWW until now.

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- I can only guess why "darkness" was put in quotation marks. Maybe to imply that to the people on the Great Sea, the symbolical connection between darkness and evil wasn't so obvious anymore?

I suppose they didn't really fight "darkness." There wasn't that many (truly) evil things on the Great Sea until Ganondorf returned, so that might explain it. Maybe the whole thing was just symbolical - after all, Link was never supposed to leave Outset until Arryl was kidnapped.

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- Hmm, the expression 勇気を知る者 (one who knows courage) totally reminds me of ALttP's 勇気を鍛える者 (one who trains/tempers courage)... In TWW it undoubtedly describes the hero, so wouldn't it make sense for the three titles in ALttP's manual to describe an evil one, a hero, and a wise one, respectively, as well? I feel that a re-translation of said paragraph is inevitable for me!^^

Please do that!

Edited by Hero of Legend, 08 June 2008 - 06:58 AM.

[Raien]

Excellent work, Jumbie!

Jumbie, on Jun 8 2008, 07:45 AM, said:

- I had to throw the last two lines together because in Japanese those are either two grammatically incorrect half-sentences, or a long correct one. For some reason, it's unusually detailed for a Japanese sentence, even using such highly metaphorical words like "verdurous", which in fact explains the green colour choice for the Wind Element in TMC, and its similarity to the Deku Tree symbol. Apparently, wind and plant-life automatically have a connection in Zelda (seen again in the airborne Korogs, and Makar's being the Sage of Wind).

So plantlife is symbollically connected to both the earth and wind elements. That makes a lot of sense, and fits well with TWW's wind symbolism.

Hero of Legend, on Jun 8 2008, 12:53 PM, said:

By the way, do you think there is any truth in the legend that Ganon returned from the "depths of the earth"? Or is it just symbolic, as Raian would say?

I have trouble explaining the line through symbolism because "depths of the earth" would normally connote hell, but Ganon is obviously not dead. Instead, I think it refers to the connection between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm, and what is most fitting is that OoT featured the elemental Temples. Because the Temples were hidden throughout Hyrule, an invasion through those Temples could create the impression of returning from the depths of the earth.

Edited by Raian, 08 June 2008 - 07:42 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

Raian said

I have trouble explaining the line through symbolism because "depths of the earth" would normally connote hell, but Ganon is obviously not dead.

Well, the Makai is a spirit world, and could be considered an equivalent of hell. Moreover, it's not unreasonable to suspect that many thought Ganon was dead, though that was not the case. I was also under the impression that, when dealing with fiction, everything that was not true in a literal sense but still held some truth was symbolic. This would likely be the case here.

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Instead, I think it refers to the connection between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm, and what is most fitting is that OoT featured the elemental Temples. Because the Temples were hidden throughout Hyrule, an invasion through those Temples could create the impression of returning from the depths of the earth.

How so? The Temples are not connected to the earth, and I doubt Ganon emerged from them. Again, if the artwork is to be believed (and why not if we interpret the text literally?) he came from beyond Hyrule, and with him came an evil wind and dark clouds (OMG!), obviously representing the storm that Jumbie spoke of.

[Raien]

Hero of Legend, on Jun 8 2008, 02:15 PM, said:

Well, the Makai is a spirit world, and could be considered an equivalent of hell. Moreover, it's not unreasonable to suspect that many thought Ganon was dead, though that was not the case. I was also under the impression that, when dealing with fiction, everything that was not true in a literal sense but still held some truth was symbolic. This would likely be the case here.

How so? The Temples are not connected to the earth, and I doubt Ganon emerged from them. Again, if the artwork is to be believed (and why not if we interpret the text literally?) he came from beyond Hyrule, and with him came an evil wind and dark clouds (OMG!), obviously representing the storm that Jumbie spoke of.

Regarding the Makai, I find it difficult to accept that TWW would reference a concept so far back in Zelda history, especially when it was alien to OoT's storyline. And furthermore, the introduction makes it quite clear that Ganon was sealed away, not killed, so I don't believe that impression exists.

Regarding the Temples, while they are not connected to the earth, you forget that the connection between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm through the temples was not altogether known to the Hyrulians anyway. My argument is that "depths of the earth" is a general impression for the Hyrulians, not a statement of fact for the players. Think about it: you live in Kakariko Village, and you see the forces of evil attacking from the graveyard and from Death Mountain. Where would you think the evil was ultimately coming from, without knowing the Temples are connected to the Sacred Realm?

Edited by Raian, 08 June 2008 - 08:34 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

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Regarding the Makai, I find it difficult to accept that TWW would reference a concept so far back in Zelda history, especially when it was alien to OoT's storyline.

It wasn't. "Evil Realm" is NoA speak for Makai, and it is portrayed no differently in OoT than it was in ALttP's back story.

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And furthermore, the introduction makes it quite clear that Ganon was sealed away, not killed, so I don't believe that impression exists.

I considered that, but it is not uncommon for a demon to return from hell. There's effectively no difference if he was dead or merely sealed if it was believed that he would not return. Besides, having the world's great evil return from the underworld is quite a logical way of going about it, even if it's not quite true.

Quote

Regarding the Temples, while they are not connected to the earth, you forget that the connection between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm through the temples was not altogether known to the Hyrulians anyway. My argument is that "depths of the earth" is a general impression for the Hyrulians, not a statement of fact for the players. Think about it: you live in Kakariko Village, and you see the forces of evil attacking from the graveyard and from Death Mountain. Where would you think the evil was ultimately coming from, without knowing the Temples are connected to the Sacred Realm?

Some things in that legend are very specific and could not have been known by the general populace, others are more like you describe - the way the Hylians saw things happen. It is possible you are right, but I'm not sure it doesn't imply what I am saying as well. And again, if that's really how it happened, why does the drawings suggest otherwise?

However, I don't think we will come to a conclusion at this time in this thread, so perhaps we should leave the matter be. After all, the way Ganondorf escaped either seal in TWW is quite a mystery, though perhaps the Japanese version will shed some light on this matter, as it did with TP.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 08 June 2008 - 09:05 AM.

[Raien]

Hero of Legend, on Jun 8 2008, 02:58 PM, said:

However, I don't think we will come to a conclusion at this time in this thread, so perhaps we should leave the matter be. After all, the way Ganondorf escaped either seal in TWW is quite a mystery, though perhaps the Japanese version will shed some light on this matter, as it did with TP.

Yeah, fingers crossed for that.

[LionHarted]

I should note that we do find out how Ganon escaped the flood- he did through a portal he was able to open- and the Spanish version of the game does say he broke the seal on the Sacred Realm (although I'm guessing no other version does).

[Duke Serkol]

Raian, on Jun 8 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

the introduction makes it quite clear that Ganon was sealed away, not killed, so I don't believe that impression exists.

However at some point in the game he is said to have revived (I think it was one of the ghost Sages).

[LionHarted]

Duke Serkol, on Jun 8 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

However at some point in the game he is said to have revived (I think it was one of the ghost Sages).

So is Vaati in FSA, I believe.

Perhaps it is a purposeful ambiguity.

Edited by LionHarted, 08 June 2008 - 03:51 PM.

[Raien]

Duke Serkol, on Jun 8 2008, 09:49 PM, said:

However at some point in the game he is said to have revived (I think it was one of the ghost Sages).

When reading the ALTTP manga, I saw Ganon's reappearance translated as "revived" as well. Clearly the term does not immediately refer to a state of death.

[Jumbie]

Hero of Legend, on Jun 8 2008, 01:53 PM, said:

By the way, do you think there is any truth in the legend that Ganon returned from the "depths of the earth"? Or is it just symbolic, as Raian would say?

I'd definitely go for symbolism here. While the Dark World is not Hell, it certainly is the demon world (as you said), and that knowledge will have led to myths like that in TP where the general population assumes the Shadow Realm is the Otherworld.

Raian, on Jun 8 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

Regarding the Makai, I find it difficult to accept that TWW would reference a concept so far back in Zelda history

You think so? In that case you'll be in for a surprise...

Duke Serkol, on Jun 8 2008, 10:49 PM, said:

Raian, on Jun 8 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

the introduction makes it quite clear that Ganon was sealed away, not killed, so I don't believe that impression exists.

However at some point in the game he is said to have revived (I think it was one of the ghost Sages).

From all the texts I've seen "revived" appear in, I've learned that it most often doesn't imply death. It means to return from a long state of incapacitation, which can be applied to living things just as well as to objects.

[Raien]

Okay, I need to clear up a mistake I made earlier. When I said that I couldn't see TWW referencing the Makai, I was thinking specifically of AoL's "World of Spirits" which I remember discussing as a form of Hell, not considering the appearance of the Makai in ALTTP and OoT. I don't know where I got confused, but I did. I remember now that Makai is a concept that remains constant throughout the timeline and I can accept its appearance in TWW.

The general point I was trying to make is that an implication of Ganon's death after OoT doesn't exist in TWW, and I don't think we should introduce it for the sake of one ambiguous line. We should assume that Ganon is alive, and that he could only have returned to Hyrule through passages from the Sacred Realm. Since these passages are known to be the Temples, I made the connection with them.

Edited by Raian, 08 June 2008 - 06:37 PM.

[LionHarted]

Jumbie, on Jun 8 2008, 05:20 PM, said:

Raian, on Jun 8 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

Regarding the Makai, I find it difficult to accept that TWW would reference a concept so far back in Zelda history

You think so? In that case you'll be in for a surprise...

Doesn't TWW draw a lot from LoZ anyway? :]

Raian said

We should assume that Ganon is alive, and that he could only have returned to Hyrule through passages from the Sacred Realm.

Unless the text actually states otherwise, I think this is the most likely conclusion, especially since this seems to be his style in TWW.

I also think it appropriate considering this line:

Quote

"Seemed to have been sealed away by the hero" (JP)

Edited by LionHarted, 08 June 2008 - 06:53 PM.