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#721 jacensolo06

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 10:09 PM

My Japanese isn't perfect so I'm not entirely sure. However, my grasp of Japanese grammar leads me to believe that you are correct.

It seems that the verb phrase ending in 持ち is describing the noun 者. However, I'm unsure of this and could be wrong.

This really does make a lot more sense with what we know from OoT, doesn't it?

#722 Hero of Legend

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 11:24 AM

Does that mean Ganon had those crests? I notice now that the legend seems to be based on AoL, where one needs special qualities to use the Triforce, though obviously many details were changed in ALttP. Maybe Ganon wasn't worthy of the Triforce, and that's why his wish didn't (completely) come true? That would explain a lot, actually.

#723 Raien

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 02:57 PM

Does that mean Ganon had those crests? I notice now that the legend seems to be based on AoL, where one needs special qualities to use the Triforce, though obviously many details were changed in ALttP. Maybe Ganon wasn't worthy of the Triforce, and that's why his wish didn't (completely) come true? That would explain a lot, actually.


AoL's King of Hyrule said that only someone with special qualities could use the Triforce, but he meant using the Triforce for peace.

If it was misused, it could produce various evils.


If someone did not possess the special qualities, like the Prince, then they would ultimately bring evil to the world with the Triforce's power. ALTTP suggests the Triforce is waiting for someone to use it for peace, and thus the Triforce-split in OoT would be a preventative action from someone who would misuse it, like Ganondorf.

Edited by Raian, 17 June 2008 - 03:14 PM.


#724 Hero of Legend

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 03:21 PM

Yes, I was contemplating mentioning that the ideas put forth in AoL likely became the Triforce split rule in OoT. But you are right about an evil person being unsuitable because he would use it to do evil - that's the Great Cataclysm right there, only with the inclusion of the gods and the Hero.

It's pretty cool how everything locks together, isn't it? People don't give Nintendo enough credit, even with relatively simple matters like this. At least they make logical progressions.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 June 2008 - 03:41 PM.


#725 Raien

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 03:36 PM

Yes, I was contemplating mentioning that this became the Triforce split rule in OoT. But you are right about an evil person being unsuitable because he would use it to do evil - that's the Great Cataclysm right there, only with the inclusion of the gods and the Hero.


So let me see if I have this straight.

-The Triforce is made from three powers; Power, Wisdom and Courage.
-The combined Triforce grants a person's wish/desire, and thus reflects their heart.
-The Triforce cannot judge good and evil hearts, but it can judge hearts that will use the Triforce for peace or misuse it to create evil.
-The Triforce is waiting in the Sacred Realm for someone who can use it for peace.
-To judge someone who will misuse the Triforce, the Triforce can sense an unbalanced heart.
-The Triforce splits if someone who has an unbalanced heart takes the Triforce, but cannot refuse the unbalanced heart if it is recombined.

Or maybe we misunderstand what is meant by "judging good and evil". Perhaps the Triforce can recognise good from evil, but cannot refuse to give power to evil. Just a thought. The Essence of the Triforce certainly knew Ganon's intentions and the result of his taking the Triforce.

It's pretty cool how everything locks together, isn't it? People don't give Nintendo enough credit, even with relatively simple matters like this. At least they make logical progressions.


It would have helped if we weren't finding NOA bungles at this late stage, but you are right. It makes me think about accepting Jumbie's timeline theory.

Edited by Raian, 17 June 2008 - 03:39 PM.


#726 Jumbie

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 03:40 PM

Very nice, Jumbie. Not only does your translation make more sense, but it fits perfectly with OoT's legend of the Triforce.

And it makes possible that ALttP Ganondorf didn't receive the united Triforce.

My Japanese isn't perfect so I'm not entirely sure. However, my grasp of Japanese grammar leads me to believe that you are correct.

It seems that the verb phrase ending in 持ち is describing the noun 者. However, I'm unsure of this and could be wrong.

Thanks, that reassures me a little.^^

Does that mean Ganon had those crests? I notice now that the legend seems to be based on AoL, where one needs special qualities to use the Triforce, though obviously many details were changed in ALttP.

Seems similar to AoL, yes... I don't think Ganondorf had all three crests though. That text seems to imply that the three crests are respectively inherited by persons, which doesn't come to pass until someone touched and split the Triforce... (Well, one could argue TP, but I think that the split Triforce in TP was caused by OoT Link already owning his crest.)
A possibility appears to be that Ganondorf, after touching the Triforce in the Sacred Realm, subsequently acquired the three crests during the Seal War by stealing them from that era's Link and Zelda (which would essentially be a failed OoT).

Maybe Ganon wasn't worthy of the Triforce, and that's why his wish didn't (completely) come true? That would explain a lot, actually.

That's what I think more likely. The quote of the Spirit of the Triforce is nicely ambiguous in that regard:

Ganon's wish was to claim the world. That evil wish changed the sacred land into the World of Darkness.
Once he had stored up power there, Ganon intended come out into the World of Light in order to fulfill his wish.

Ganon's wish... he undoubtedly held it in his heart when he entered the Sacred Realm, thereby changing it into the Dark World (as described in OoT, too). That's what the Spirit of the Triforce means by his "wish changed the sacred land into the World of Darkness".
Next, Ganon stored up power and his monster horde in the Dark World, and became the Demon King (as described in OoT).
And then, he intended to fulfill his wish ("fulfill", かなえる, is the same word that means "to grant a wish"), suggesting he had not actually had a chance to utter it to the Triforce because it split on him. To do so, he stepped out to the Light World and attacked Hyrule Castle (as described in OoT), trying to reassemble the Triforce (which goes as unmentioned as Link and Zelda), and so the Seal War unfolded...

OoT explained that Ganondorf had no problems to become the Demon King without the united Triforce, and that while indeed it was his evil wish that tainted the Sacred Realm, the united Triforce was not needed for that either. Now add to that a few misinformed residents of the Dark World in ALttP, and an ending scene that perfectly allows for the Triforce to reassemble only in the antechamber, and you're able to claim that Ganon never had the united Triforce.

I'm aware that all of this is completely twisting ALttP's original meanings - but we mustn't forget that OoT was intended to do exactly that! The scriptwriters used to their advantage the fact that ALttP remains so vague about everything, and later delivered the exact details with OoT, at the same time establishing important parts of the mythology which, retroactively applied to ALttP, result in those changes in ALttP's original meaning.

#727 NM87

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 10:10 AM

-The Triforce cannot judge good and evil hearts, but it can judge hearts that will use the Triforce for peace or misuse it to create evil.

What the hell? The Triforce cannot judge between good an evil, but it knows who is going to use it for good or evil? That?s the same thing as it judging between good and evil. So, whatever you were aiming at needs work.

-The Triforce is waiting in the Sacred Realm for someone who can use it for peace.

No, for someone appropriate who can inherit its powers.

-To judge someone who will misuse the Triforce, the Triforce can sense an unbalanced heart.

An unbalanced heart means you do not have all three powers in balance, not that you are evil.

-The Triforce splits if someone who has an unbalanced heart takes the Triforce, but cannot refuse the unbalanced heart if it is recombined.

The whole point of OOT/WW.

I'm aware that all of this is completely twisting ALttP's original meanings - but we mustn't forget that OoT was intended to do exactly that!

Ret-con.

Edited by NM87, 18 June 2008 - 10:11 AM.


#728 Raien

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 12:21 PM

What the hell? The Triforce cannot judge between good an evil, but it knows who is going to use it for good or evil? That’s the same thing as it judging between good and evil. So, whatever you were aiming at needs work.


The fact that the Triforce is waiting for someone "worthy" to inherit its' power is evidence that the Triforce is capable of judgment. The fact that anyone who is not worthy will inevitably create evil with the Triforce is evidence that the Triforce's judgment of worthiness is related to good and evil. If the Triforce-splitting is based on that same judgment of worthness, we can further argue that the judgment exists to prevent evil from taking the Triforce.

Of course, the Triforce could not act upon its judgment of worthiness until OoT, and so the meaning of ALTTP's statement, "The Triforce cannot judge good and evil." makes more sense in the context that the Triforce could not refuse to give power to Ganondorf than in the context of the Triforce-splitting.

An unbalanced heart means you do not have all three powers in balance, not that you are evil.


And yet the balance of the three powers is symbollically connected to benevolence, just as imbalance is symbollically connected to evil. While the balance/imbalance does not strictly make someone good/evil, the forces are tied by correlation.

Edited by Raian, 18 June 2008 - 01:33 PM.


#729 FDL

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 01:35 PM

Wow, this is quite a revelation. I always wondered why ALttP didn't fit with the other games when it came to the rules of the Triforce, now it makes more sense.

#730 Jumbie

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 04:34 PM

I'm aware that all of this is completely twisting ALttP's original meanings - but we mustn't forget that OoT was intended to do exactly that!

Ret-con.

Exactly, OoT was made to retcon ALttP. Good that you see it ;)

Btw NM87, I had rather you comment on the latest translation, because you're the one whose theory it affects most...

#731 Raien

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 04:48 PM

Exactly, OoT was made to retcon ALttP. Good that you see it ;)


And why can't the same thing be said for TWW? If you're going to create a third timeline where TWW doesn't retcon OoT=IW, then you should logically create a fourth timeline where OoT doesn't retcon ALTTP, and a fifth timeline where ALTTP doesn't retcon AoL's "first-generation Princess Zelda".

Edited by Raian, 18 June 2008 - 07:04 PM.


#732 NM87

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 09:25 PM

The fact that the Triforce is waiting for someone "worthy" to inherit its' power is evidence that the Triforce is capable of judgment. The fact that anyone who is not worthy will inevitably create evil with the Triforce is evidence that the Triforce's judgment of worthiness is related to good and evil. If the Triforce-splitting is based on that same judgment of worthness, we can further argue that the judgment exists to prevent evil from taking the Triforce.

Of course, the Triforce could not act upon its judgment of worthiness until OoT, and so the meaning of ALTTP's statement, "The Triforce cannot judge good and evil." makes more sense in the context that the Triforce could not refuse to give power to Ganondorf than in the context of the Triforce-splitting.

No, I thought you had already discussed that an imbalanced heart does not necessarily mean that one is evil. You could be lacking power but have too much wisdom or something. This doesn't imply you will do evil with the Triforce, you just aren't worthy.

And yet the balance of the three powers is symbollically connected to benevolence, just as imbalance is symbollically connected to evil. While the balance/imbalance does not strictly make someone good/evil, the forces are tied by correlation.

Nah, you made all that stuff up, its a good thought but I never read anything like that in Zelda.

Exactly, OoT was made to retcon ALttP. Good that you see it

Dang, can't believe you fell for that. Too bad Raian beat me to it.

Edited by NM87, 18 June 2008 - 09:28 PM.


#733 Raien

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 09:50 PM

No, I thought you had already discussed that an imbalanced heart does not necessarily mean that one is evil. You could be lacking power but have too much wisdom or something. This doesn't imply you will do evil with the Triforce, you just aren't worthy.


It was discussed in the symbolism topic, and it came to a conclusion that was agreed upon; Imbalance of the heart is a root cause of evil. If someone's mind was weak enough to be controlled by Power, Wisdom or Courage, then it would spawn greed and selfishness that would isolate him and endanger the people around him. A balanced heart suggests someone who is strong enough to control all three forces ("One who governs Power, one who administers Wisdom, one who tempers Courage") and is thus not drawn to greed.

But one thing that has to be considered (but theorists do not) is that the Zelda mythology does not account for every possible psychological complex. We presume that someone's intentions can go against their heart, and yet have we never seen a main character in such a situation. People's hearts can change in the Zelda universe, but they are never conflicting. An imbalanced person might take the Triforce for benevolence, but that imbalance would corrupt them and turn them to evil for the sake of desiring power/wisdom/courage. Only a balanced person is not prone to that corruption, and is thus worthy of using it for peace.

In other words, perhaps the Triforce cannot recognise whether a heart is already good or evil, but it can recognise whether a heart will inevitably become evil as a result of the imbalance. And thus characters who touched the Triforce with balanced hearts, like the King of Hyrule and Link, were benevolent and used the Triforce for peace. The one person with an imbalanced heart, Ganondorf, took the Triforce and created evil. The symbolism behind this is quite clear and definitely intentional.

Edited by Raian, 18 June 2008 - 10:28 PM.


#734 NM87

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 10:19 PM

I said the forces are related, not that the forces are the same. While a balanced heart does not necessarily make someone benelevent (and vice versa with imbalance/evil), there is a general association. People who have balanced hearts, like the King of Hyrule and Link, are benevolent and use the Triforce for peace. The one person with an imbalanced heart, Ganondorf, takes the Triforce and creates evil. The connection is obvious, and it's definitely intentional. Imbalance suggests weakness, which would allow a trait like Power to take control of the heart (hence, Ganondorf's greed).

The Triforce cannot judge between good and evil. That is a fact. If what you claim is true, then Nintendo defeats the purpose of stating time and time again the Triforce cannot judge between good and evil. I think you are reading into this too much. You keep citing Ganondorf as the imbalanced one who would take the Triforce and do evil, but other imbalanced persons could lack another balance, yet not be evil. The idea that an imbalanced heart means you are evil and will always misuse the Triforce doesn't make sense.

Only a balanced person is not prone to that corruption, and is thus worthy of using it for peace.

And that is simply not true either.

In other words, perhaps the Triforce cannot recognise whether a heart is already good or evil, but it can recognise whether a heart will inevitably become evil as a result of the imbalance.

Which is made-up, and again defeats the purpose of the Triforce being unable to judge between good and evil.

Edited by NM87, 18 June 2008 - 10:22 PM.


#735 Raien

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 10:29 PM

I just rewrote my post. Please respond to the new message, which I think is more effective than what I had said before.

PS: Could you please not simply respond to random lines with "No, you're wrong." and actually make some effort to elaborate? It's true that I haven't simply provided a list of quotes to support my argument, but what I have said supports the general symbolism behind the Triforce mechanics.

-Characters in the Zelda games with balanced hearts are benevolent; characters with imbalanced hearts are evil.
-Ganondorf only understands the importance of one trait, Power, thus creating the imbalance.
-Ganondorf is controlled by Power, driven to greed and selfishness by it. Thus the imbalance leads him to commit evil.
-Jumbie's most recent translation said that one who was worthy of the Triforce needed to possess the three forces, but it should be noted that possessing all three forces suggested control of the forces ("One who governs power, one who administers wisdom, one who tempers courage"). Thus a balanced heart is strong enough not to turn to evil.

Edited by Raian, 18 June 2008 - 10:57 PM.


#736 NM87

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 11:12 PM

Ok, there is nothing more I can say to sway you away from what you believe. The fact is, that the Triforce can not judge between good and evil. Indicating that it can in some way, such the Triforce assuming an imbalance implies this person will do evil with the Triforce, is an inconsistency. No matter how you slice it, what you are claiming is that the Triforce IS capable of judging between good and evil. A completely balanced person can inherit the Triforce, and then be corrupted by the newfound power of the Triforce an do evil things because of it. This is why there is still "something more" to be an appropriate person worthy of inheriting the Triforce.

Edited by NM87, 18 June 2008 - 11:13 PM.


#737 Jumbie

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 01:34 AM

Exactly, OoT was made to retcon ALttP. Good that you see it ;)

And why can't the same thing be said for TWW? If you're going to create a third timeline where TWW doesn't retcon OoT=IW, then you should logically create a fourth timeline where OoT doesn't retcon ALTTP, and a fifth timeline where ALTTP doesn't retcon AoL's "first-generation Princess Zelda".

What you suggest is completely different matters. Keep in mind that it was OoT's release that, at the same time, established the OoT+ALttP connection *and* corrected minor details that ALttP had left ambiguous. OoT couldn't have been ALttP's prequel without correcting the latter in a few details. And that's what it did. There was not a retcon of a game placement nor of a timeline. Incidentally, I am generally opposed to such radical retcons. All that I am doing is preserve an age-old relationship in the face of no matter how many OoT sequels there will be. I hope this was clear enough.

Exactly, OoT was made to retcon ALttP. Good that you see it

Dang, can't believe you fell for that. Too bad Raian beat me to it.

I was actually pulling your leg, you know.

Ok, there is nothing more I can say to sway you away from what you believe. The fact is, that the Triforce can not judge between good and evil. Indicating that it can in some way, such the Triforce assuming an imbalance implies this person will do evil with the Triforce, is an inconsistency. No matter how you slice it, what you are claiming is that the Triforce IS capable of judging between good and evil. A completely balanced person can inherit the Triforce, and then be corrupted by the newfound power of the Triforce an do evil things because of it. This is why there is still "something more" to be an appropriate person worthy of inheriting the Triforce.

A completely balanced person can inherit the Triforce, but such a person will never turn evil.
Likewise, in Zelda, an evil person can never have a balanced heart. These are the facts.

There's not "something more", as I recently proved. And if you were so kind to actually look at that translation, you would see that your theory is outdated already! Your head-in-the-sand behaviour won't get you anything <_<

#738 Raien

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 05:04 AM

Ok, there is nothing more I can say to sway you away from what you believe. The fact is, that the Triforce can not judge between good and evil. Indicating that it can in some way, such the Triforce assuming an imbalance implies this person will do evil with the Triforce, is an inconsistency. No matter how you slice it, what you are claiming is that the Triforce IS capable of judging between good and evil. A completely balanced person can inherit the Triforce, and then be corrupted by the newfound power of the Triforce an do evil things because of it. This is why there is still "something more" to be an appropriate person worthy of inheriting the Triforce.


There is an only an inconistency if you take the words at face value and ignore the surrounding context. The "worthiness of the Triforce" exists in part to explain how the powers of the Triforce can change in hands of benevolence and evil, but also to suggest that the Triforce was meant to be in benevolent hands, which gives another meaning to Link's quest. And yet when this was written, it was not conceived that the Triforce should split of its own accord, and so the worthiness was a relatively useless concept. The "Triforce cannot judge good and evil" statement exists to explain the purpose behind the Master Sword's creation; whether or not the Triforce can judge worthiness, it cannot refuse an evil heart that touches it. So both statements have different purposes, and within those contexts, both statements can be perfectly true.

What you suggest is completely different matters. Keep in mind that it was OoT's release that, at the same time, established the OoT+ALttP connection *and* corrected minor details that ALttP had left ambiguous. OoT couldn't have been ALttP's prequel without correcting the latter in a few details. And that's what it did. There was not a retcon of a game placement nor of a timeline. Incidentally, I am generally opposed to such radical retcons. All that I am doing is preserve an age-old relationship in the face of no matter how many OoT sequels there will be. I hope this was clear enough.


Are you denying that OoT made significant retcons to ALTTP's original telling of the IW? The Knights' battle against the demons to protect the Sages is the most obvious example, considering it establishes the importance of the hero descending from their bloodline. Replace the Knights of Hyrule with Link and you get TP's Hero bloodline, not ALTTP's Knight bloodline. I really don't see how this example differs from the "first-generation Princess Zelda" retcon.

Edited by Raian, 19 June 2008 - 05:12 AM.


#739 Arturo

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 07:40 AM

A completely balanced person can inherit the Triforce, but such a person will never turn evil.
Likewise, in Zelda, an evil person can never have a balanced heart. These are the facts.

Show a single quote, and it will be a fact. Until then, it will just be speculation, belief, but will not be a fact. No matter how reasonable, now matter how plausible, it's not a fact.

#740 Raien

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 09:05 AM

Show a single quote, and it will be a fact. Until then, it will just be speculation, belief, but will not be a fact. No matter how reasonable, now matter how plausible, it's not a fact.


The most accurate definition would be a "theory", because it is an argument constructed from several quotes and circumstances relating to the Triforce mechanics.

Edited by Raian, 19 June 2008 - 09:06 AM.


#741 Duke Serkol

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 09:26 AM

I am generally opposed to such radical retcons. All that I am doing is preserve an age-old relationship in the face of no matter how many OoT sequels there will be. I hope this was clear enough.

You do realize that sounds like an admission of consciously being in denial, right? :P

A completely balanced person can inherit the Triforce, but such a person will never turn evil.
Likewise, in Zelda, an evil person can never have a balanced heart. These are the facts.

Show a single quote, and it will be a fact. Until then, it will just be speculation, belief, but will not be a fact. No matter how reasonable, now matter how plausible, it's not a fact.

Ack, you beat me to that Arturo :)

#742 NM87

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 06:25 PM

There is an only an inconistency if you take the words at face value and ignore the surrounding context. The "worthiness of the Triforce" exists in part to explain how the powers of the Triforce can change in hands of benevolence and evil, but also to suggest that the Triforce was meant to be in benevolent hands, which gives another meaning to Link's quest. And yet when this was written, it was not conceived that the Triforce should split of its own accord, and so the worthiness was a relatively useless concept. The "Triforce cannot judge good and evil" statement exists to explain the purpose behind the Master Sword's creation; whether or not the Triforce can judge worthiness, it cannot refuse an evil heart that touches it. So both statements have different purposes, and within those contexts, both statements can be perfectly true.

How does any of this prove that the Triforce can judge between good and evil? It can only judge between balances, the only thing that and evil or good heart effects if the Sacred Realm, which is a mirror of the heart in the first place. No one is doubting that the Triforce was meant to be in benevolent hands, that much is accepted. The claim that the Triforce knows who will be good and who will be evil is not. The Triforce splits because a person is not balanced, not because it thinks that if this person is not balanced then the person will become evil.

#743 Raien

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 06:35 PM

How does any of this prove that the Triforce can judge between good and evil? It can only judge between balances, the only thing that and evil or good heart effects if the Sacred Realm, which is a mirror of the heart in the first place. No one is doubting that the Triforce was meant to be in benevolent hands, that much is accepted. The claim that the Triforce knows who will be good and who will be evil is not. The Triforce splits because a person is not balanced, not because it thinks that if this person is not balanced then the person will become evil.


The justification for the argument that the Triforce can judge between good and evil lies in the argument that imbalance is the root cause of evil. If you can make an argument against the connection between imbalance and evil, I would be happy to debate that. Everything I have said in support of the connection between imbalance and evil is on this page of this topic as well as the symbology topic.

PS: If you wish to debate, PM me as the topic has changed.

Edited by Raian, 19 June 2008 - 07:12 PM.


#744 Jumbie

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 06:54 PM

So, onward to interesting matters. As most of you probably haven't heard yet, KJ Contrarian, a theorist over at the Temple of Theorizing boards, has acquired the Japanese games and manuals of ALttP+FS GBA, LoZ GBA, AoL GBA, OoS, and OoA. That means that in addition to checking the stories of ALttP and FS (something that has long intrigued me), we should also be able through screenshots to check the crucial quotes in Oracles, namely Zelda introducing herself and the talk of the "Dark Realm".
KJC has already provided scans of the manual stories, and I've just finished work on the ALttP GBA story:

プロローグ
Prologue


はるか昔、混沌とした世界に降り立った「力の神」「知恵の神」「勇気の神」の三神は、あらゆるものを創造し終えたとき、全知全能である黄金の聖三角体・トライフォースを世界のどこかに残されました。
A long long time ago, when the trinity of the "God of Power", the "God of Wisdom", and the "God of Courage" had descended to the world of chaos and completed their creation of all things, they left behind somewhere in the world an omniscient and omnipotent sacred golden triangle, the Triforce.

Aeons ago, the deities of Power, Courage, and Wisdom descended to the world of chaos. They created the world that we know and left behind a symbol of their strength, the golden emblem known as the Triforce, which they hid in the Golden Land.

長い年月の後、黄金が隠された聖地への入り口がハイラル王国で聖地へと向かいましたが帰ってきたものはなく、それどころか悪しき力がそこから湧き出るようになったのです。
After many years, people headed for the sacred place that hid the gold, the entrance to which was in the kingdom of Hyrule. But none returned ? on the contrary, evil power came gushing forth from there.

After many years, an opening was found that led from our fair Hyrule to the Golden Land, where the mystical Triforce was still hidden. Many sought treasure in this place, but none returned - only beings of great evil emerged from the Golden Land.

そこで国王は七人の賢者に命じ、聖地への入り口を二度と開くことのないよう、強固に封印させました。
Therefore, the king ordered the Seven Sages to create a firm seal so that the entrance to the sacred place would never be opened again.

The King of Hyrule gathered the Seven Sages to find a way to seal the entrance to the Golden Land so that his kingdom would be safe from the evil there.

その結果ハイラルには平和が戻り、人々はまた平穏な暮らしを営み始めたのです。
As a result, peace returned to Hyrule, and the people started to lead a peaceful living again.

The Sages succeeded and brought peace again to Hyrule.

ところが、ある年に起きた原因不明の災いに対し、それを鎮めることを名目として"アグニム"と名乗る謎の司祭がやってきてから、ハイラルでは不審な事件が起こりだします。
However, suspicious incidents have been occurring in Hyrule since a mysterious priest who calls himself "Agunim" used as a pretext his confronting and suppressing a calamity of unknown origin that happened one year.

However, strange things have been happening in Hyrule since the appearance of Agahnim, a mysterious sorcerer who gained fame for extinguishing a devastating blaze of unknown origin some years ago.

そして?
And?

And now?

ある夜、あなたは女の子の声で目を覚まします。
One night, a girl's voice wakes you up.

One night, a girl's voice wakes you from sleep.

「助けてください?私の名はゼルダ?お城の地下牢に捕らわれています」
"Please help me? My name is Zelda? I am being held prisoner in the castle underground dungeon."

"Help me? My name is Zelda? I am in the castle dungeon."

その声は夢なのか現実なのか、冷たい雨が降る不吉な夜に「ゼルダの伝説」が始まろうとしているのです。
Whether that voice was a dream or reality ? in this ominous night of cold rainfall, the "Legend of Zelda" is about to begin.

Not knowing if the voice was a dream or reality, you step into the rain and forbidding darkness? and the Legend of Zelda begins.

Notes:
- NoA sticked to their old mistranslations "Golden Land" and "sorcerer".
- Consistent with OoT and ALttP in-game, the Triforce's resting place is "somewhere in the world".
- It doesn't say that "an opening was found" to the Sacred Realm, just that people headed there. To be correct, "people" isn't even spelled out, the only information on who entered is that "none returned".
- No doubts are cast on the sages' ability to create the seal.
- The Japanese seems to anticipate that Agahnim is a fraud (using Hyrule's plight to his advantage).
- It's not a devastating blaze, but once again an unspecified calamity.

Edited by Jumbie, 20 June 2008 - 03:13 PM.


#745 Raien

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 07:11 PM

Good work.

- The Triforce is omniscient and omnipotent... That could be interesting.


The purpose of the Triforce is to govern Hyrule, so it should be natural that it can see everything in Hyrule.

#746 Impossible

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 11:03 PM

Thanks Jumbie, I was hoping we would see this, and it should be interesting to see what else comes from these Japanese games. You forgot one other thing that we've learnt from this, though: the Japanese version doesn't say that the Triforce was "still hidden".

Of course, nobody with any sense put any stock in that anyway, due to the fact that it was ultimately just a shortened form of the SNES manual which we've all read a real translation of, and no new facts would have been included in NoA's non-literal translation of this abridged story. Least of all in a SINGLE WORD, which never decrees the entire timeline, but then, some people care more about literally analysing the meaning of every word than actually focusing on the intent and purpose behind it. I can just imagine the dismay of any actual literary analyst seeing some of the arguments that go on sometimes around here, generally among people who aren't aware of the importance of purpose and context (which are really the same thing).

#747 CID Farwin

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 12:55 AM

Nice, Jumbie, can't wait for more!

- The Triforce is omniscient and omnipotent... That could be interesting.

Yes it could, and might support something I've been thinking on.

- NoA sticked to their old mistranslations "Golden Land" and "sorcerer".

To be fair, "sorcerer" has a much more negative connotation.

Therefore, the king ordered the Seven Sages to create a firm seal so that the entrance to the sacred place would never be opened again.

As a result, peace returned to Hyrule, and the people started to lead a peaceful living again.

Interesting that it's ambiguous about the sages succeeding in creating the 'firm seal' that 'would never be opened again', just that as a result (of their actions? of the seal? of the king's orders? it doesn't specify.) the people lived in peace.

Just reminds me of an argument against OoT=IW that included something about how in ALttP the seal was supposed to last forever, but in OoT it pretty much says right out that it won't

#748 Hero of Legend

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 07:23 AM

- The Triforce is omniscient and omnipotent... That could be interesting.

That's actually not anything new - The NoA version says it in the Intro legend. Now we just know it is correct.

In related matters, I call bogus on the idea that the Triforce can (and does) judge between good and evil. I could have gone with Raian, if not for the fact the full quote from the ALttP manual is "The Triforce cannot judge between good and evil. That is because only the gods can do that." (Jumbie might want to re-translate that passage, just to make sure) So, no-one except the goddesses can truly tell good from evil. And it would completely defeat the purpose of the gods as the judges of good and evil if the Triforce can simply sidestep that fact by equating imbalance with evil. I'm not saying there is not a connection here, but it?s far from as clear-cut as Raian and Jumbie say. And as for the Triforce, if you ask me, it doesn't care about good and evil - it aids every worthy person, wether that person is Ganon or Link or the King or whomever.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 20 June 2008 - 07:25 AM.


#749 Raien

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 09:16 AM

We know at least that the Triforce can consciously recognise good and evil, as humans do, because the Essence of the Triforce shows such recognition. But the Triforce cannot refuse to give power to evil, which is the context in which the quote "The Triforce cannot judge good and evil." was made. We know the Triforce has been bestowed with the ability to judge worthiness based on the balance of the three forces of Power, Wisdom and Courage. But the ability to act upon that judgment was only demonstrated in OoT; it was merely symbolic in AoL and ALTTP, to provide an added sense of purpose to Link's quest to recover the Triforce.

But to be honest, when I said the Triforce could judge good and evil in my last post, I was overgeneralising and did not mean what I said. My argument is not that good/evil and balance/imbalance are strictly tied (i.e. a balanced heart is always benevolent, an imbalanced heart is always evil), but that there is a strong correlation between them. The reason for this correlation, as I have theorised from the text, is that an imbalanced heart makes a man prone to corruption (even if they were not evil, like AoL's Prince of Hyrule). And as evidence of this correlation, we can see that Link and the King of Hyrule had balanced hearts and were benevolent; Ganondorf had an imbalanced heart and was evil. However, the Triforce doesn't need to be aware of this correlation; as long as it is concerned with worthiness, it does not need to judge good and evil.

Edited by Raian, 20 June 2008 - 09:30 AM.


#750 Hero of Legend

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 09:50 AM

Good, that's all I wanted to say as well.




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