168 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

And you never see me claim that any old game has to happen after TP, mind you!

You claim that a third unaccounted-for timeline split happens.

Riiiight.

[Hero of Legend]

If you've also read my other type of posts, you should know how much sense of reality I have.

*coughdual-split timelinecough* *coughdefinitellykiddingyourself* *coughignorancedoesnottruthmakecough*

And so on... Of course you don't contradict canon, but the idea is still unwarranted and arguably in conflict with creator intentions, which is what we should base our theories on.

Me? I just don?t give a fuck about any pre-OoT game. Why? Because Nintendo doesn't either.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 July 2007 - 12:43 PM.

[Jumbie]

You claim that a third unaccounted-for timeline split happens.
Riiiight.

Yep. Deal with it.

*coughdual-split timelinecough* *coughdefinitellykiddingyourself* *coughignorancedoesnottruthmakecough*

You're just arbitrarily claiming my theory made no sense. Oh how devastatingly that hits me!

Of course you don't contradict canon, but the idea is still unwarranted and arguably in conflict with creator intentions, which is what we should base our theories on.

How is that idea in conflict?! If I thought it was, I certainly wouldn't go by it. Had you not just written that I claim to base my theory on creator intent? I do indeed.

Me? I just don?t give a fuck about any pre-OoT game. Like Nintendo.

That is *EXACTLY* why I decided on the dual split.

[CID Farwin]

C'mon, it's hard being one of the few voices of reason on the Storyline forum. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who actually has a sense of reality.

Hey, we're just having a bit of fun.

The Forest Temple is a medieval palace with battlements and a moat. The Eastern Palace looks like an ancient Indian temple, with monolithic statues everywhere. One of its most ubiquitous puzzles, the rolling-ball traps, are not present in the forest temple. I say that they two temples are far too different to be the same.

You might as well say that the third dungeon in TP ISN'T the Water Temple.

And anyway, LionHarted's got me covered on this. All the structures were destroyed in TWW.

You claim that a third unaccounted-for timeline split happens.

I've come up with a decent enough reason for it.

Lion, seems ya fighting against windmills now..

Why do I now have a mental image of LionHart charging the windmill in OoT?

Edited by CID Farwin, 30 July 2007 - 12:56 PM.

[LionHarted]

Yep. Deal with it.

And I claim that the Deku Tree's restoration plan (creator intent) will unflood the destroyed Hyrule (interpretation of Deku Tree's plan), people will resettle it (we know Link+Tetra are trying to find a new kingdom), and inevitably the still-sealed Sacred Realm will be rediscovered by Ganon (told us in ALttP).

And I guess you're going to have to deal with that, too.

Edited by LionHarted, 30 July 2007 - 12:58 PM.

[Person]

In TWW, we have the Deku Tree's plan and the King's wish. Both of these are conflicting wishes regarding the future of Hyrule. I have no problem with a "New Hyrule," but ascribing this "New Hyrule" to the old games is really fanficcy.

As for the bloodline argument (which makes the most sense) we have a hero's bloodline mentioned in TP and ALttP. In TWW, Link is not of the Hero's bloodline, he's just some kid from a podunk island who had to earn the ToC instead of inheriting it like TP Link. Points to a TP->ALttP connection, if you ask me.

[Hero of Legend]

You're just arbitrarily claiming my theory made no sense. Oh how devastatingly that hits me!

No, I'm actually pointing out the hypocrisy in your condescension of the "misguided fools" who believe in a single timeline and don't follow canon, while you do the same with a triple timeline. Which you should care about because you expect other people to do so.

Same with the ?Is and always will be? thing you?re doing because that shows that you apparently have no respect for creator?s intentions at all.

How is that idea in conflict?! If I thought it was, I certainly wouldn't go by it. Had you not just written that I claim to base my theory on creator intent? I do indeed.

Even though there is absolutely no evidence, and indeed conflicting statements from Aonuma, that this would be correct? See, he only speaks about a split timeline, and the story simply doesn't allow for TWW to happen in the "changed future" even if you make up another split.

BTW, Aonuma didn?t say the timeline split because of Link and Zelda?s talk. I dunno if you know it, but I know some people still don?t, so I?m saying it again.

That is *EXACTLY* why I decided on the dual split.

Well, then you definitely shouldn?t make up a theory about it. I just view them as discarded canon. Still connected in their own way, just not relevant anymore. I don't need a theory to explain that.

Funny that we should argue when we think so alike. I guess it's just a matter of preference. I know I never liked the idea of OoT as the IW (because of the plot holes), so that may be why I don't really care about it.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 July 2007 - 01:17 PM.

[LionHarted]

In TWW, we have the Deku Tree's plan and the King's wish. Both of these are conflicting wishes regarding the future of Hyrule. I have no problem with a "New Hyrule," but ascribing this "New Hyrule" to the old games is really fanficcy.

Since the Hyrule of the old games hardly resembles the Hyrule of the new games, beyond geographical (non-manmade locations; i.e., those that a flood wouldn't have destroyed, like mountains, valleys, etc.), I think it's rather moot to say that ascribing the world map of the old games to any particular chronology is fanficcy, because it is in both cases.

I would, of course, add that the appearance of all the "new" structures/temples in the "old games" makes most sense to me if they are "new structures" built in the "New Hyrule."

In TWW, Link is not of the Hero's bloodline, he's just some kid from a podunk island who had to earn the ToC instead of inheriting it like TP Link. Points to a TP->ALttP connection, if you ask me.

1) The ToC has nothing to do with ALttP Link.
2) Link was not descended from the hero, but could easily have been descended from the Knights of Hyrule, as per ALttP's bloodline requirement.

BTW, Aonuma didn’t say the timeline split because of Link and Zelda’s talk. I dunno if you know it, but I know some people still don’t, so I’m saying it again.

He did indirectly.

"Timeline splits" (in fantasy) are caused when a key element from the past is changed by time travel. All events to follow this point of change occur in a different time chronology.

Aonuma said that the conversation changed Link + Zelda's relationship with Ganon; therefore, Link + Zelda's talk represents the moment that, to Aonuma, represents the point of change.

Edited by LionHarted, 30 July 2007 - 01:18 PM.

[Person]

If TWW Link was descended from the Knights, why didn't he inherit the ToC, like TP Link did? Also, KoRL says that he is not related to the Hero of Time.

ALttP Link has nothing to do with the ToC for one reason: Ganon has it, so he can't inherit it.

A bloodline from OoT Link cannot exist in the Adult Timeline, because Link leaves and returns to the past before he can sire any offspring. If we say that the bloodline is figurative, and based on reincarnation, that doesn't work because OoT Link left before he died.

As for "New Hyrule," most of the shared locations come from OoT and ALttP, so I find it hard to sandwich a flood story between the two.

[LionHarted]

If TWW Link was descended from the Knights, why didn't he inherit the ToC, like TP Link did?

The ToC split when OoT Link left Hyrule, IIRC.
He was able to assume it unto himself, though, which marked him as the true hero, indeed.

Also, KoRL says that he is not related to the Hero of Time.

And Ganon says that he does.
And the King seems awfully surprised when you can assume the ToC unto yourself.

Maybe the king's just wrong.

ALttP Link has nothing to do with the ToC for one reason: Ganon has it, so he can't inherit it.

TWW Link can't inherit it because it's split up in boxes at the bottom of the ocean.

A bloodline from OoT Link cannot exist in the Adult Timeline, because Link leaves and returns to the past before he can sire any offspring. If we say that the bloodline is figurative, and based on reincarnation, that doesn't work because OoT Link left before he died.

OoT Link had absolutely no living blood-relations at the end of OoT?

As for "New Hyrule," most of the shared locations come from OoT and ALttP, so I find it hard to sandwich a flood story between the two.

ALttP: Kokiri Forest? Gerudo Valley? Goron City? Forest Temple? Fire Temple? Water Temple? Shadow Temple? Desert Colossus?
OoT: Eastern Palace? Desert Palace? Tower of Hera? Swamp ruins to the south?

Notably all of the "shared locations", besides Kakariko Village and Hyrule Castle, are natural ones, not man-made ones. Now, if, say, any of the aforementioned temples existed in both games, then you might have a point. But a flood isn't going to destroy a mountain (Death Mountain), and while it might eradicate river valleys, lake basins, and forests, it turns out that these things are not consistently-placed geographically between OoT and ALttP anyway (with the exception of the Lake, although it does move around quite a bit between the worlds of TMC, FSA, and ALttP anyway).

[Hero of Legend]

He did indirectly.

I've seen many ideas of how changing the course of history/splitting time works. Nothing Aonuma said implies the split occurred at that moment, and neither does anything in the game. Link being sent back, however, we know was the ultimate cause of it, so that's what I credit it as. Hell, history was changed simply by Navi leaving Link, which we know had a profound impact on Link, and which happened before the meeting, so whatever.

[LionHarted]

I've seen many ideas of how changing the course of history/splitting time works. Nothing Aonuma said implies the split occurred at that moment, and neither does anything in the game. Link being sent back, however, we know was the ultimate cause of it, so that's what I credit it as.

1) He could have gone back and simply done nothing.
2) The existence of the Song of Storms paradox seems to suggest that simply returning to the past and doing stuff isn't enough; you have to do something that specifically alters the course of what had happened prior.

[Hero of Legend]

1) He could have gone back and simply done nothing.

Yeah. Then history would've repeated itself. But we know he didn't, so it doesn't matter.

2) The existence of the Song of Storms paradox seems to suggest that simply returning to the past and doing stuff isn't enough; you have to do something that specifically alters the course of what had happened prior.

Which is what Zelda was trying to do when she sent Link back and asked him to close the Door of Time.

Then Link followed that up when he talked to young Zelda, and then shit happened. But even if he hadn't, history was changed; no HoT or anything, thanks to adult Zelda.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 July 2007 - 01:54 PM.

[SOAP]

I've seen many ideas of how changing the course of history/splitting time works. Nothing Aonuma said implies the split occurred at that moment, and neither does anything in the game. Link being sent back, however, we know was the ultimate cause of it, so that's what I credit it as.

1) He could have gone back and simply done nothing.
2) The existence of the Song of Storms paradox seems to suggest that simply returning to the past and doing stuff isn't enough; you have to do something that specifically alters the course of what had happened prior.

I think it's clear the reason the timeline splits is because the DOOR OF TIME IS CLOSED IN THE PAST.

[Jumbie]

And I claim that the Deku Tree's restoration plan (creator intent) will unflood the destroyed Hyrule (interpretation of Deku Tree's plan), people will resettle it (we know Link+Tetra are trying to find a new kingdom), and inevitably the still-sealed Sacred Realm will be rediscovered by Ganon (told us in ALttP).

And I guess you're going to have to deal with that, too.

I guess so, yes. It's never too much fun to argue about the same things, I was just defending our viewpoint when I had to.

But let me just add what I agree is creator intent: The Deku Tree's plan to connect the islands will eventually form a new continent, and people will resettle it.

No, I'm actually pointing out the hypocrisy in your condescension of the "misguided fools" who believe in a single timeline and don't follow canon, while you do the same with a triple timeline. Which you should care about because you expect other people to do so.

If single timeliners just don't follow canon (disregarding Aonuma's statements), it's an entirely different thing from me introducing another timeline. How do I violate what he or the games said? Earlier you said I didn't, but in my understanding, not to follow canon has the same meaning as violating canon.

Same with the ?Is and always will be? thing you?re doing because that shows that you apparently have no respect for creator?s intentions at all.

"Always will be", because the devs won't care about ALttP anymore, as you said. That's why I have it in a timeline where it doesn't interfere with TP or TWW. So again, I view this as an optimal way to respect creator intent.

Even though there is absolutely no evidence, and indeed conflicting statements from Aonuma, that this would be correct?

Huh, when did Aonuma ever talk about ALttP? My only evidence is ALttP's incompatibility with both TWW and TP.

See, he only speaks about a split timeline, and the story simply doesn't allow for TWW to happen in the "changed future" even if you make up another split.

My second split is not so much a split, as a gaiden (because I can't point out a possible trigger for another split). Regarding TWW as a gaiden to ALttP, I am by no means the inventor of that idea. But I eventually decided to adopt it after having finished TP. Not long ago I saw a Japanese fansite that independently came up with the same conclusion, three timelines. So one should think it's a justified interpretation of the Zelda timeline, no?

Well, then you definitely shouldn?t make up a theory about it. I just view them as discarded canon. Still connected in their own way, just not relevant anymore. I don't need a theory to explain that.

Funny that we should argue when we think so alike. I guess it's just a matter of preference. I know I never liked the idea of OoT as the IW (because of the plot holes), so that may be why I don't really care about it.

I agree, we were arguing this in vain. Personally I have love for all the games, likely the most for ALttP, so I'd like to have them all in the timeline - in some timeline. The split + gaiden theory, as I call it, seems to me an optimal solution to keep all the previously established canon intact and not interfering with the newer games.

ALttP: Kokiri Forest? Gerudo Valley? Goron City? Forest Temple? Fire Temple? Water Temple? Shadow Temple? Desert Colossus?
OoT: Eastern Palace? Desert Palace? Tower of Hera? Swamp ruins to the south?

Notably all of the "shared locations", besides Kakariko Village and Hyrule Castle, are natural ones, not man-made ones. Now, if, say, any of the aforementioned temples existed in both games, then you might have a point.

I know you didn't ask for what I'm about to do, but let me do it anyway because to me it's a fun pastime, like solving a crosswords:

ALttP:
- Kokiri Forest = yellow trees south of Eastern area
- Gerudo Valley = arguably at either the desert entrance or below Flute Boy's grove
- Goron City = cave system in Death Mountain
- Fire Temple = cave system in Death Mountain
- Water Temple = inaccessible at the bed of Lake Hylia
- Shadow Temple = located in the cave behind the King's tomb, but now obstructed by boulders
- Desert Colossus = recrafted into the Desert Temple

[CID Farwin]

I think it's clear the reason the timeline splits is because the DOOR OF TIME IS CLOSED IN THE PAST.

This is my argument, exactly. Or at least part of it. Link closes the Door of Time and walks away. That makes the split. I also, however, offer an alternative to Jumbie's gaiden: That the timeline splits twice.

And I just can't let a bloodline argument go like that.

It has been said that whenever
disaster waylays the royal
family, a Hero shall emerge
from the bloodline of the
Knights of Hyrule...
Unfortunately, most of them
were destroyed in the great
war against evil that took
place when the seven sages
created their seal, so it was
thought that a hero would
never again emerge...

wouldn't this fit with TWW? Most of the knights were killed, so KoRL thought they were gone, and is surprised to see one (Link) coming to save Hyrule.
It also fits to have OoT Link also from the Knights' line.

2) The existence of the Song of Storms paradox seems to suggest that simply returning to the past and doing stuff isn't enough; you have to do something that specifically alters the course of what had happened prior.

What IS this paradox-thing? I never got that.

People are getting too serious. This isn't fun anymore.

Edited by CID Farwin, 30 July 2007 - 10:27 PM.

[LionHarted]

ALttP:
- Kokiri Forest = yellow trees south of Eastern area
- Gerudo Valley = arguably at either the desert entrance or below Flute Boy's grove
- Goron City = cave system in Death Mountain
- Fire Temple = cave system in Death Mountain
- Water Temple = inaccessible at the bed of Lake Hylia
- Shadow Temple = located in the cave behind the King's tomb, but now obstructed by boulders
- Desert Colossus = recrafted into the Desert Temple

1) Kokiri Forest has the Deku Tree, in the two depictions we've had of it.
2) Gerudo Valley has a valley and a river running through it, in the only depiction we've had of it.
3) Goron City has Gorons, in each of the three depictions we've had of it.
4) Fire Temple has lava, in the only depiction of it in the series.
5) Water Temple is underwater, in both depictions.
6) Really a moot point.
7) Desert Colossus has a Colossus.

In other words, none of the places I mentioned actually exist in ALttP, nor do they have equivalents upon which they are based; you're just picking out places that exist roughly where these places should be.

Which doesn't really help your position; anyone can do that.

Edited by LionHarted, 30 July 2007 - 10:27 PM.

[Person]

Ganon says that Link is the Hero of Time reborn. That's logically impossible, since Link left and went back to the past and then died there. How could he be reincarnated if his soul existed in a separate timeline?

As for the ToC, we have OoT Link having it, and then it passes to his descendant, TP Link. In TWW, he leaves, and there is no one to inherit it, so it splits up until someone worthy finds it, who may or may not be from the Knight's bloodline. If someone who was worthy and was of the bloodline existed in the Adult Timeline, then it would've gone to him, but that person didn't come around until TWW, and then he had to earn it.

In ALttP, the ToC is rightfully Link's, but Ganon stole it.

[LionHarted]

As for the ToC, we have OoT Link having it, and then it passes to his descendant, TP Link. In TWW, he leaves, and there is no one to inherit it, so it splits up until someone worthy finds it, who may or may not be from the Knight's bloodline. If someone who was worthy and was of the bloodline existed in the Adult Timeline, then it would've gone to him, but that person didn't come around until TWW, and then he had to earn it.

1) OoT Link can't pass the Triforce to a descendant if he doesn't have a descendant. That is why TWW Link has to find it, whether he is related or not.
2) It is highly suggested by the fact that it is in boxes at the bottom of the sea with maps pointing to it that hiding the Triforce was a conscious action, not something that automatically happened when he left the timeline. This was indeed one of my biggest problems with the idea, and remains so to this day.
3) Again, the ToC has never been directly associated with a bloodline; simply with certain powers attributed to the hero who in most cases happens to come from the bloodline. AoL simply requires that someone be born with the qualities to use it.

[Person]

The maps conform to a post-flood geography, and were probably written a little while after the flood to mark the locations of the pieces that were now lost. I don't think that Link himself wrote them, because he returns instantly to the Child Timeline in the end credits of OoT, and he probably couldn't plot out a map in 5 minutes.

1) OoT Link can't pass the Triforce to a descendant if he doesn't have a descendant. That is why TWW Link has to find it, whether he is related or not.

Exactly. No hero's bloodline in TWW, and by extension, the whole adult timeline, because the hero had no offspring.

3) Again, the ToC has never been directly associated with a bloodline; simply with certain powers attributed to the hero who in most cases happens to come from the bloodline. AoL simply requires that someone be born with the qualities to use it.

Which is why not all of the Links are from the hero's bloodline, IMO.
E.G.
TMC Link: unknown
OoT Link: Definitely
TP Link: Definitely
TWW Link: Probably not
FS Link: unknown
ALttP Link: definitely
OoX Link: Maybe
LoZ Link: Definitely not, since he's not even from Hyrule, it was simply destiny that he got the Triforce.

The Links are linked by destiny and stuff, but we have several who are related to each other. In TP, there's a big deal made about Link being of the hero's bloodline, and in ALttP, there's an even bigger deal made about it. That would suggest a TP->ALttP placement.

[LionHarted]

The maps conform to a post-flood geography, and were probably written a little while after the flood to mark the locations of the pieces that were now lost. I don't think that Link himself wrote them, because he returns instantly to the Child Timeline in the end credits of OoT, and he probably couldn't plot out a map in 5 minutes.

I would guess that the King of Red Lions played a hand in it (as a reference to the king hiding the Triforce of Courage in AoL). Oooooorrrr maybe the Fishmen, which is why they know of them.

Exactly. No hero's bloodline in TWW, and by extension, the whole adult timeline, because the hero had no offspring.

No direct descendants of a hero, no, but all references to the Knights of Hyrule exist in the Adult timeline. And it is their descendants/relatives who can become the hero, according to ALttP.

And didn't Aonuma say that the characters in TP weren't really even descended from the ones in OoT?

In TP, there's a big deal made about Link being of the hero's bloodline, and in ALttP, there's an even bigger deal made about it. That would suggest a TP->ALttP placement.

Hero's Bloodline =/= Knights' bloodline

Not necessarily, anyway.

[CID Farwin]

Not necessarily, anyway.

They could, but then they might not. there's good arguments either way.

[Person]

The knights are never mentioned in TWW.

Now, we have Link from OoT whose parentage is not known. Presumably, he's from the knight's bloodline. He sires offspring, which leads to TP Link, who is from the hero's bloodline. He sires some more offspring and the Imprisoning War happens. His descendants all die off except for a few, and they lead to ALttP Link. He's from the hero's bloodline, and by extension, the knight's bloodline.

Since the connections to OoT in TWW are by destiny and not by blood, it's safe to say that TP Link is not related at all to OoT Link, and he got the ToC because it was destined so. In TP, it passes directly to Link from birth, implying that his ancestor had it.

In short, we have two games where a big deal is made about the bloodline, and I see fit to put them in the same timeline, because it shows direct progression of the blodline until LoZ, where it's probably died out and Link is only related by destiny.

As for the maps, I really don't think that KoRL had anything to do with them, or he'd at least mention it while you're hunting for them. More likely, it was some random mapmaker who knew where they were and preserved maps for them after the flood. Maybe people wondered what the maps were for and that's how the Triumph Forks legend started. Of course, Triumph Forks may be a real object, considering that a book in TMC tells you how to find them.

[LionHarted]

The knights are never mentioned in TWW.

Really?

"Long ago, Ganon's Tower was an
impenetrable fortress that not even
the daring and dauntless Knights of
Hyrule could hope to assail."

On your site's own quote FAQ.

Along with other references to knights.

[CID Farwin]

The knights are never mentioned in TWW.

They are never mentioned, therefore don't exist. riiiiight. So I suppose the Kingdom of Hyrule is all that exists in OoT, since there's no mention of any other place.

And what the Lion said.

[Person]

Really? I searched the FAQ and that's the only quote I could find, no other references. Anyway, that reference seems to have been made in the past tense, indicating that the knights were once around, and aren't anymore. No bloodline, per se. It's ambiguous at least. Doesn't tell us if the bloodline exists or not.

I say it doesn't, due to KoRL's quote about Link not being related to the Hero, and that the only alternative is that he is a reincarnation, a logical impossibility.

[CID Farwin]

He can be descended from a knight that has no relation to OoT Link.

[LionHarted]

I say it doesn't, due to KoRL's quote about Link not being related to the Hero

His quote was that Link "has no connection to the legendary one".

About ten other characters (exaggerating) and the fact that he is actually the true hero seem to contradict this heavily.

Edited by LionHarted, 30 July 2007 - 11:44 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

What IS this paradox-thing? I never got that.

Link taught the Windmill Guy the Song of Storms, but Link didn't know the Song of Storms until the Windmill Guy told Link that he taught him the song as a child, causing Link to go back in time, learn it, and teach it to the Windmill Guy.

In ALttP, the ToC is rightfully Link's, but Ganon stole it.

Wrong. The entire Triforce was waiting for an owner, with no obligations to anyone, and Ganon just claimed it, fair and square.

[CID Farwin]

Link taught the Windmill Guy the Song of Storms, but Link didn't know the Song of Storms until the Windmill Guy told Link that he taught him the song as a child, causing Link to go back in time, learn it, and teach it to the Windmill Guy.

That's a simple time loop. I fail to see any "paradox."