168 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

The 'squid' shape in the desert is almost certainly intended to be an Octorok. Nothing more.

[Arturo]

Obviously, in 1991 the developers put that because they knew Hyrule would be flooded in 2002.

Obviously, Nintendo drew the Hyrule origin story from real-life myths. No reason why they couldn't have already thought that Hyrule would have a flood myth to go along with its creation myth, even if they hadn't written it yet.

Remember that Miyamoto thought TWW was first for the longest time.

But it isn't.

And show me a Flood Myth where they wish for land's DESTRUCTION and it is unflooded in the end.

[MikePetersSucks]

There may be an allusion to flood myths, but that doesn't mean it has to follow the exact same formula. How many flood myths do you know of that have kingdoms perfectly intact below them with a frozen timeline and a breathable atmosphere? How many flood myths have ALL of the population salvaged instead of just a handful? How many flood are caused to seal away an evil, malevolent king instead of wiping the slate clean for the entire world?

Hell, how many floods leave behind fuckin' islands?

FAIL.

[CID Farwin]

TWW's flood is obviously supposed to be a combination of flood myths and the story of Atlantis. And since Hyrule isn't in the real world, Nintendo is perfectly able to take creative license on whether to unflood Hyrule or not. And Hyrule is obviously destroyed by the ocean falling on top of it. It can be unflooded(the Deku Tree seems to consider it an inevitability) when there's no trace of the old Kingdom, and they just build on top of it. The King's wish was to 1.Destroy Hyrule(which happened) and 2.to spare Link and Tetra(which happened.) I don't remember anything about the flood being permanent.

I guess everyone's just going to ignore my other theory, then. *Hangs head sadly*

[LionHarted]

And show me a Flood Myth where they wish for land's DESTRUCTION and it is unflooded in the end.

The Bible?
Egypt?
The Lithuanian story of Wandu and Wejas?
Most of the other stories on this site?

Hell, how many floods leave behind fuckin' islands?

I don't care to go through and weed out all the ones that specifically do.
Tons of them have the people flee to mountaintops.

Edited by LionHarted, 25 July 2007 - 01:01 PM.

[Person]

In the Bible, God didn't want to wash away the landscape, just the evil people. Since there were only 8 good people in the world, he saved them and killed everyone else.

In TWW, Hyrule was frozen in time to stop Ganon. Since he was the only evil one, he was sealed. Because everyone else was good, the gods let them migrate to the mountaintops. In TWW, the king wished to destroy the old kingdom. Kinda defeats the purpose if it unfloods. The Great Deku tree's plans were to create a new continent, not raise the old one.

I always thought that the squid in the desert was like the Nazca lines or something, like an ancient carving. It doesn't even look like a dead squid.

[Arturo]

And show me a Flood Myth where they wish for land's DESTRUCTION and it is unflooded in the end.

The Bible?
Egypt?
The Lithuanian story of Wandu and Wejas?
Most of the other stories on this site?

There is no mention in my Bible of any King wishing on the Triforce for his Kingdom to be destroyed. No-one but God wanted to destroy humanity (but he didn't destroy land).
And I know quite a bit about Egypt, and I am pretty sure there is no flooding myth on Egypt. Unless you are confusing them with the creation/destruction of the world myths or with the anual Nile flood ones, which have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with flood myths, except for taht there is water in them.

EDIT:I have just checked the Egyptian "flood" myth you mention, and it isn't so. I have very little information on it, but it is the DEFINITE destryuction of teh whole world. After millions of years, the world would return to the Nun, the initial chaos (related with darkness and water), and Osiris and Atum, as only survivors, would become snakes, and there would be no humans or gods anymore.

Edited by Arturo, 25 July 2007 - 01:59 PM.

[Jumbie]

Hence the giant squid-shaped recess in ALttP's desert.
No reason why they couldn't have already thought that Hyrule would have a flood myth to go along with its creation myth, even if they hadn't written it yet.

You. Are. Ridiculous.

Remember that Miyamoto thought TWW was first for the longest time.

His ignorance of the story of a game he did not directly work on, has nothing to do whatsoever with would-be flood references in a decade-old Zelda instalment.

The TP line has room to grow, as well, you know.

Why sure! To me, the TP timeline is not identical with the traditional ALttP/FSA/LoZ timeline, you know.

Edited by Jumbie, 25 July 2007 - 02:15 PM.

[LionHarted]

There is no mention in my Bible of any King wishing on the Triforce for his Kingdom to be destroyed. No-one but God wanted to destroy humanity (but he didn't destroy land).

God sent a flood to "destroy the earth."

I have very little information on it, but it is the DEFINITE destryuction of teh whole world.

Let's say that it was true. In fact, let's say that it coincides with the same flood that other cultures have in their mythology. Wouldn't it, then, have already happened? Aren't we still here

You. Are. Ridiculous.

Actually, I just don't think we can glean an absolute meaning from the ending of TWW, at least as far as the rest of the series. The threat of Ganondorf against Hyrule has had the book closed on it. The way for a new country, a new Hyrule lies ahead.

Edited by LionHarted, 25 July 2007 - 03:41 PM.

[Person]

No, actually, the story goes that God was saddened because humankind had become so evil, so he decided to send a flood in 120 years. He knew that Noah and his family were the only good people left in the world, so he warned them and gave them time to build the ark. The flood came and everybody except Noah and his family drowned. The flood receded, and then God put the rainbow as a sign that he would never again wipe out humanity with a flood.

Note that land and kingdoms have nothing to do with this story. It's people that the story is talking about. In TWW, it's land that is destroyed, because all of the people are safe and sound above the ocean.

[Arturo]

I have very little information on it, but it is the DEFINITE destryuction of teh whole world.

Let's say that it was true. In fact, let's say that it coincides with the same flood that other cultures have in their mythology. Wouldn't it, then, have already happened? Aren't we still here

We can say that, but it would be false. The myth you mentioned is NOTHING like Noah's myth, or any other flood myths. Mainly because it's not a flood myth. It's a myth regarding the end of the world.

If you want to defend a theory with myths, you could at least make sure taht you know what the myths are about. Or at least read what I wrote.

[LionHarted]

In TWW, it's land that is destroyed, because all of the people are safe and sound above the ocean.

So the floods in other flood myths have an entirely different effect on the land than the flood in TWW?
So the rhetoric "destroy mankind" ought to denote a permanent destruction of the human race, even though the floods are usually followed by a repopulation of the species?

Edited by LionHarted, 25 July 2007 - 06:05 PM.

[Person]

The point of the biblical flood was to kill the bad people, not everybody. The population aspect after the stories is always by descendants of the survivors, who were usually chosen to begin with. The King's wish was for the land to be destroyed, to allow a clean slate for future generations.

[LionHarted]

The point of the biblical flood was to kill the bad people, not everybody.

Wasn't the point of the TWW flood to kill Ganon?

The King's wish was for the land to be destroyed, to allow a clean slate for future generations.

Riiiiight. With the previous kingdom gone, they are now free to build a new one, either on top of where the old one stood, or in a new place.

Edited by LionHarted, 25 July 2007 - 10:59 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

There's still no evidence that the Flood is intended to recede in the Zelda mythos, and just because inspiration was taken from the Flood Myths doesn't mean they have to be followed to the letter. I mean, for example, the Creation Myth of Hyrule doesn't have all of it's populace descend from a single man and woman, contradicting almost every Creation Myth out there.

[LionHarted]

I mean, for example, the Creation Myth of Hyrule doesn't have all of it's populace descend from a single man and woman, contradicting almost every Creation Myth out there.

It skips the creation of humanity.

[MikePetersSucks]

Not really. They were kind've included when Farore "imbued the land with life." Which probably meant all living things in Hyrule, not just plants and animals and such.

[Person]

The creation story of Hyrule glosses over the creation of humanity, so the devs can fill that up with oddities like the Oocca.

Oh, LionHarted, here's a quote for you:

I desire hope for these children! Give them a future! Wash away
this ancient land of Hyrule!

...Ah, but child... That land will not be Hyrule. It will be YOUR land!

Yeah. Hyrule is dead in TWW.

[CID Farwin]

Yeah. Hyrule is dead in TWW.

Yes, it seems that way, but for argument's sake:

I desire hope for these children! Give them a future! Wash away
this ancient land of Hyrule!

I doubt he meant actually washing away land, just all traces of the Kingdom.

...Ah, but child... That land will not be Hyrule. It will be YOUR land!

Is referring to building "Hyrule" somewhere else.

But yes, Hyrule is dead. It does seem apparent that Hyrule ends after TWW, and that Nintendo intends to go in that direction; but until they solidify this, there's still a chance that it could be unflooded in a future game.

[Jumbie]

I desire hope for these children! Give them a future! Wash away this ancient land of Hyrule!

I doubt he meant actually washing away land, just all traces of the Kingdom.

In all four other language versions besides English, the king asks the Goddesses to *destroy* Hyrule.

...Ah, but child... That land will not be Hyrule. It will be YOUR land!

Is referring to building "Hyrule" somewhere else.

No, it's referring to finding *another land*. It's not like each and every land on the Zelda planet needs to adopt the name Hyrule. Who is to say the Deku Tree will insist on naming a possible newly formed continent Hyrule? During TWW, none of the common folk above the sea use the name Hyrule to refer to their world anymore, so why not just forget it, along with the actual Hyrule that was buried for all times?

It does seem apparent that Hyrule ends after TWW, and that Nintendo intends to go in that direction; but until they solidify this, there's still a chance that it could be unflooded in a future game.

How do you imagine that ever coming about? Let's assume Nintendo likes to create another Zelda game playing in Hyrule - wouldn't they rather put it after TP or so, where Hyrule was never destroyed in the first place?

Or would Eiji Aonuma go out to the journalists like, "Well, we decided to unflood Hyrule again. Yep. Although we just flooded it in TWW to make for new gameplay concepts. Although the ocean in Phantom Hourglass made that game such a success. I guess we were just getting tired of all the blue. What basically prompted this decision, was all the fan mails we got from sobbing kiddies who mourned the destruction of Hyrule - of course a game developer's heart can only take so much, so we just had to bend to the audience's will, and unflood Hyrule."

Honestly, why do so many timeliners regularly lose their sense of reality, gaming industry, and narrative logic?!
(No offense CID, it's primarily directed at TWW-misunderstanding hardliners such as LionHarted.)

Edited by Jumbie, 26 July 2007 - 08:19 PM.

[Person]

I think most of the misunderstandings about TWW came from old linear theories. In those theories, TWW came right after OoT, so an unflooding was necessary for the storyline to continue. In a split timeline, it is not.

[LionHarted]

I desire hope for these children! Give them a future! Wash away
this ancient land of Hyrule!

...Ah, but child... That land will not be Hyrule. It will be YOUR land!

Yeah. Hyrule is dead in TWW.

Hyrule, the kingdom of Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule, is gone.

If some other dude wants to build a kingdom, populate it with the descendants of the Hylians, and name it Hyrule, it will not be Hyrule, the kingdom of Daphnes. It will be Hyrule, the kingdom of some other dude.

The narrative highly suggests that a new land is on the horizon. However, what do we see in the sequel to TWW, PH? No new land. Just a bunch of small islands. They aren't going to find one.

So we defer to the Deku Tree's suggestion; that the trees will use their power to one day connect all of the islands. And when you do this, you get a situation much similar to the other flood myths, a semi-divine being working to rebuild the world, and that will inevitably result in exactly what everyone is saying is impossible: the (imperfect) revival of Hyrule, if not a new kingdom being built on the land that was once the old kingdom itself, a new kingdom bearing that name and being inhabited by the peoples who once inhabited the old one.

Edited by LionHarted, 27 July 2007 - 08:16 AM.

[GuardianNinja]

I desire hope for these children! Give them a future! Wash away
this ancient land of Hyrule!

...Ah, but child... That land will not be Hyrule. It will be YOUR land!

Yeah. Hyrule is dead in TWW.

Hyrule, the kingdom of Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule, is gone.

If some other dude wants to build a kingdom, populate it with the descendants of the Hylians, and name it Hyrule, it will not be Hyrule, the kingdom of Daphnes. It will be Hyrule, the kingdom of some other dude.

The narrative highly suggests that a new land is on the horizon. However, what do we see in the sequel to TWW, PH? No new land. Just a bunch of small islands. They aren't going to find one.

So we defer to the Deku Tree's suggestion; that the trees will use their power to one day connect all of the islands. And when you do this, you get a situation much similar to the other flood myths, a semi-divine being working to rebuild the world, and that will inevitably result in exactly what everyone is saying is impossible: the (imperfect) revival of Hyrule, if not a new kingdom being built on the land that was once the old kingdom itself, a new kingdom bearing that name and being inhabited by the peoples who once inhabited the old one.

Good point

[CID Farwin]

I'm not actually trying that hard for a single timeline, it's just
1. If I'm going to be such a stickler that OoT is the IW, then by logic ALttP would come after the adult ending.
2. I'm just coming up with possible theories, and defending them, but that doesn't mean that I believe them. what I do believe is the first timeline in my sig.

Also, it just seems to me that FSA, due to the map, is fulfilling the Deku tree's vision.

Edited by CID Farwin, 27 July 2007 - 09:39 AM.

[Person]

How is FSA fulfilling the Deku Tree's vision? It's just the ALttP map with a wider view. The only "connection" to TWW is that there is an ocean in the background. Big deal. There was an ocean in LoZ. We've known that Hyrule has had a coastline since LoZ. Changes nothing.

[Jumbie]

...Just glad that my last post is so happily ignored.
Must mean that I'm right with it and you simply can't counter it.

[Person]

Apparently, the "destroy" quote would be argued up and down and all around by the hardliners. Be glad it wasn't responded to.

Ah, here's a relevant quote I found on a timeline FAQ:

You are probably wrong if:

1. You spend more than a sentence explaining away something that contradicts
your timeline.

2. Your first thought is that oh crap, this fact contradicts my theory, I must
do something to explain it away.

3. You ignore, jettison, or otherwise butcher any solid fact that has already
been made clear beyond a reasonable doubt.

Edited by Person, 27 July 2007 - 12:01 PM.

[CID Farwin]

...Just glad that my last post is so happily ignored.

Right up there with my theory #3.
To be fair, I was responding generally to your post.

How is FSA fulfilling the Deku Tree's vision? It's just the ALttP map with a wider view.

No it's not.

[Person]

There is only one contradiction between the ALttP map and the FSA map: the placement of Lake Hylia. FSA has the Lost Woods and Kakriko Village right next to each other, as in ALttP, and it has the Tower of Flames (Hera) in the same place. It also has the Eastern Palace and the Desert Palace right in the same spots as in ALttP. New locations like Ice Palace and Dark Temple could have just been off the map in ALttP. It even has the swamp in the right spot! Aside from Lake Hylia, the two maps are practically identical, moreso than the OoT and ALttP maps.

[MikePetersSucks]

That's total bull. I don't remember LTTP Hyrule having a frozen section, a big ass pyramid, a tower to the friggin' sky, etcetera.