168 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

To repeat myself: Look at the movie Waterworld. And go by that.

That movie was completely unrealistic, even by movie standards. The world was flooded long enough for man kind to forget land ever existed yet cigarettes still exist as well gas to run all the jet skis which seem to work perfectly fine. We're supposed to go by this?

No, because those games take place in a world that was NEVER flooded.
Before 2003 there was no flood in Zelda, so why can't you simply let the old games take place in a world that was never flooded?!

The old games maybe, but with the exception of TP, the post-2003 released games could still take place in a post-flood Hyrule. FSA especially since unlike all the previous versions of Hyrule, it a big a island and looks almost like a combinations of smaller islands all joining together into a larger one. Evidence of the Deku Tree's prophecy in action? And TMC's Hyrule is virtually a new land altogether with no familiar landmarks aside from Hyrule Castle and Lake Hylia. And at the very least, TMC's Hyrule has a history that goes back roughly 100 years. Short enough for this Hyrule to be a new Hyrule founded by Link and Tetra and long enough for Hyrule to be re-established as a thriving country once again. Personally I prefer TMC to be first but if the Sands of Time are what I think they are, TMC could very well be some hundred years after TWW, and the FS games hundreds of more years by that extension.

[LionHarted]

I don't remember LTTP Hyrule having a frozen section

Nope. It has a swampy area roughly where the frozen section was.
Remember that the frozen Hyrule was shaped by Ganon.

a big ass pyramid

Was beyond the deepest part of the desert. Obviously you don't go there in ALttP.

a tower to the friggin' sky

Which only the maidens could make appear.

[SOAP]

I just got back and I forgot to read the second page....

Ah well. At least someone else shares my beliefs already.

[CID Farwin]

Ah well. At least someone else shares my beliefs already.

There is only one contradiction between the ALttP map and the FSA map: the placement of Lake Hylia. FSA has the Lost Woods and Kakriko Village right next to each other, as in ALttP, and it has the Tower of Flames (Hera) in the same place. It also has the Eastern Palace and the Desert Palace right in the same spots as in ALttP. New locations like Ice Palace and Dark Temple could have just been off the map in ALttP. It even has the swamp in the right spot! Aside from Lake Hylia, the two maps are practically identical, moreso than the OoT and ALttP maps.

*Annoyed sigh* I guess I need to bring these up AGAIN!


Okay, now:
-Lake Hylia is in the same location in FSA that Zora's domain is in ALttP, and even looks like the Zora's Domain in OoT somewhat.
-FSA has Kakariko IN the lost woods. ALttP has Kakariko village SOUTH of the Lost Woods.
-The tower of Hera is on the LEFT PEAK in ALttP.(Tower of FLAMES!? Fire Temple?)
-The eastern Palace is not east of the Desert Palace in ALttP.
-Vice Versa.
-need I continue?

Now let's look at these:


-Hyrule Castle is in the wrong place.
-Kakariko Village is in the wrong place.
-And er, um, nope. that's it.

Edited by CID Farwin, 28 July 2007 - 12:27 PM.

[Person]

If you notice, the FSA map has the Lost Woods just next to Kakariko Village, just like ALttP. Death Mountain also has two peaks, just like ALttP, and the swampy region south of the castle is present. It's called "The Swamp. World 4-2" The Desert is in the right spot, and the the frozen region isn't frozen all of the time. In the end credits it's returned to normal. The frozen part is probably only frozen because of evil magic, and most of it is off the map in ALttP anyway.

But in the end, it's useless. Geography changes to suit the gameplay, so a geography-based argument is futile. Both the FSA and ALttP maps are similar, as are the OoT and ALttP maps. However, the OoT map omits things like Eastern Palace, Desert Palace, swamps, and the Tower of Flames. It also has the Lost Woods in the wrong spot. As for the ocean, we have known that Hyrule bordered an ocean since LoZ, and that changes nothing. It's just that since TWW, people have pointed to all visual references to an ocean, and used them to say "Look, New Hyrule!" when it's obvious that Hyrule was supposed to be destroyed in TWW. If it's new Hyrule, why would a post-flood new Hyrule look strikingly similar to a pre-flood Hyrule?

[LionHarted]

-Lake Hylia is in the same location in FSA that Zora's domain is in ALttP, and even looks like the Zora's Domain in OoT somewhat.
-FSA has Kakariko IN the lost woods. ALttP has Kakariko village SOUTH of the Lost Woods.
-The tower of Hera is on the LEFT PEAK in ALttP.(Tower of FLAMES!? Fire Temple?)
-The eastern Palace is not east of the Desert Palace in ALttP.
-Vice Versa.
-need I continue?

-- Lake Hylia is notably in this position in TMC. Is FSA before OoT, then? Or... wait... are TMC and FSA both after OoT, and before ALttP?
-- FSA's Kakariko Village is southwest of Death Mountain, just like ALttP's Kakariko Village. People tend to like cutting down trees, you know (and there's even a lumberjack shop there in ALttP). The forest can shrink. The village can even move.
-- Definitely agreed that the towers are not the same.
-- Definitely disagree here; EXACT duplication is irrelevant. There is no Eastern Palace in OoT at all, nor is there a Desert Palace.
-- Repeating dissimilarities twice is underhanded.
-- Yes.

To add a few more legitimate ones:

-- Land divided by water channels (although this would make sense if, say, islands are being brought together post-TWW)
-- Tower/Temple of Darkness in the woods (Ganon's Tower from TWW?)
-- Pyramid in the desert

-Hyrule Castle is in the wrong place.
-Kakariko Village is in the wrong place.
-And er, um, nope. that's it.

-- No Desert/Eastern Palace.
-- Lost Woods to the east, not the northwest.
-- No swamp/ruins area at the south section of the field.
-- No river-valley east of the desert.
-- Very little forested area whatsoever to the east.
-- Lon Lon Ranch?
-- No towers on Death Mountain
-- Single peak on Death Mountain

If it's new Hyrule, why would a post-flood new Hyrule look strikingly similar to a pre-flood Hyrule?

*cough* Deku Tree's plan *cough* magic + tree island phenomenon *cough*

Edited by LionHarted, 28 July 2007 - 04:31 PM.

[SOAP]

Ah well. At least someone else shares my beliefs already.

There is only one contradiction between the ALttP map and the FSA map: the placement of Lake Hylia. FSA has the Lost Woods and Kakriko Village right next to each other, as in ALttP, and it has the Tower of Flames (Hera) in the same place. It also has the Eastern Palace and the Desert Palace right in the same spots as in ALttP. New locations like Ice Palace and Dark Temple could have just been off the map in ALttP. It even has the swamp in the right spot! Aside from Lake Hylia, the two maps are practically identical, moreso than the OoT and ALttP maps.

*Annoyed sigh* I guess I need to bring these up AGAIN!


Okay, now:
-Lake Hylia is in the same location in FSA that Zora's domain is in ALttP, and even looks like the Zora's Domain in OoT somewhat.
-FSA has Kakariko IN the lost woods. ALttP has Kakariko village SOUTH of the Lost Woods.
-The tower of Hera is on the LEFT PEAK in ALttP.(Tower of FLAMES!? Fire Temple?)
-The eastern Palace is not east of the Desert Palace in ALttP.
-Vice Versa.
-need I continue?

Now let's look at these:


-Hyrule Castle is in the wrong place.
-Kakariko Village is in the wrong place.
-And er, um, nope. that's it.

I disagree. There's more simmilarities between the FSA map and ALttP map than the OoT map and ALttP map. Still I think the FSA map is the end result of the Deku Tree's forest magic making the islands grow into one big island, which is what the FSA map is and none of the other Hyrules are.

[LionHarted]

Again, I must reiterate that FSA's Lake Hylia is the only Lake Hylia in the series to match up with TMC's Lake Hylia.
Connection? I think so.

[SOAP]

No because the Lake Hylia in FSA isn't even lake. It's a series of waterfalls and is obviously modeled after the Waterfall of Wishes/Zora's Domain while the TMC's Lake Hylia is a Lake, looks like previous Lake Hylias, but is totally in the wrong part of the map. Personally I think the Wii version of TP's Lake Hylia matches up more with TMC's Lake Hylia.

Edited by SOAP, 28 July 2007 - 06:25 PM.

[LionHarted]

No because the Lake Hylia in FSA isn't even lake. It's a series of waterfalls and is obviously modeled after the Waterfall of Wishes/Zora's Domain while the TMC's Lake Hylia is a Lake, looks like previous Lake Hylias, but is totally in the wrong part of the map.

Yes, but if the idea is to have Lake Hylia move southward to fill the land occupied by Village of the Blue Maidens, it would make sense if the Lake was actually traveling down a series of cascades.

This, of course, is the idea.

And Lake Hylia, by the way, constitutes, I believe, the second "shelf" along the river's path.

Edited by LionHarted, 28 July 2007 - 07:13 PM.

[Person]

Except that these are all geography arguments and prove absolutely nothing. Notice that the channels are formed by the river and not the ocean. No significance at all. Ditto with Lake Hylia.

Must I say it again:
Geography is irrelevant in Zelda!

[CID Farwin]

Must I say it again:
Geography is irrelevant in Zelda!

Funny, since you brought it up.

[Person]

It was a mistake to bring it up, then. I brought it up to show some FSA-ALttP similarities, which are obvious, as well as ALttP-OoT similarities, but I really don't think that these things have any storyline relevance.

[CID Farwin]

They don't have any significance. I just find it fun to line everything up relatively and see similarities in all the maps.

[Jumbie]

Apparently, the "destroy" quote would be argued up and down and all around by the hardliners. Be glad it wasn't responded to.

They could argue all they want, but they can never disprove the countless reasons I gave. There was some rock-hard common sense put down there. If I wanted no responses, I wouldn't have posted, duh.

Right up there with my theory #3.

But that theory was another one with games after TWW, wasn't it? I've said that I won't consider any timelines that have that. Not being stubborn, but to me it's just a fact that no old games come after. Just like I'll never consider any timelines that have MM after AoL.

To be fair, I was responding generally to your post.

You did. But it wasn't really directed at you. What I hoped to see was some hardliner go all out flaming.

Death Mountain also has two peaks, just like ALttP

But in-game in FSA's Death Mountain stage, there is just one peak. That is, the crater from the map is completely absent, instead we have Spectacle Rock right next to the Tower, exactly like in ALttP. And we all know from OoT that Spectactle Rock is in the very same place as the crater. If in a game there's no crater around Spec Rock, it means the crater succumbed, leaving the Rock jut out on top of the rubble.

However, the OoT map omits things like Eastern Palace, Desert Palace, swamps, and the Tower of Flames.

Eastern Temple = Forest Temple
Desert Temple = Spirit Temple
swamps = off OoT's map, between Gerudo Valley and Lake Hylia
Tower of Flames = behind Death Mountain crater, or wasn't erected yet

It was a mistake to bring it up, then. I brought it up to show some FSA-ALttP similarities, which are obvious, as well as ALttP-OoT similarities, but I really don't think that these things have any storyline relevance.

We all learn from our mistakes. I used to do the very same, showing how similar OoT and ALttP's maps are, but well.. I guess geography arguments can come into play to smoothen everything up as soon as our timelines already stand finished.

Edited by Jumbie, 29 July 2007 - 01:11 AM.

[SOAP]

Except that these are all geography arguments and prove absolutely nothing. Notice that the channels are formed by the river and not the ocean. No significance at all. Ditto with Lake Hylia.

Must I say it again:
Geography is irrelevant in Zelda!

Geography might not have much impact in the order of the games but it isn't irrelevant to Zelda discussion in general. It's funny you should say that considering that Zelda's storyline is about as consistant as Hyrule's geography and isn't any less futile trying to peice together.

[LionHarted]

But that theory was another one with games after TWW, wasn't it? I've said that I won't consider any timelines that have that.

You're as bad as people who still think there's only one timeline.

But in-game in FSA's Death Mountain stage, there is just one peak.

False. You cross from one peak to the other to reach the Tower of Flames.

And we all know from OoT that Spectactle Rock is in the very same place as the crater.

No we don't, especially since OoT never featured a place called "Spectacle Rock", but, rather, a pair of volcanic rocks (which would appear as "Spectacle rock" formations by default, because how else can two rocks sitting next to each other look?).

Eastern Temple = Forest Temple
Desert Temple = Spirit Temple
swamps = off OoT's map, between Gerudo Valley and Lake Hylia
Tower of Flames = behind Death Mountain crater, or wasn't erected yet

1) No precedent for any of these locations being the same.
2) The Desert Temple was specifically built for the purpose of guarding the way to the Pyramid, whereas the Spirit Temple certainly was not.
3) The swamps line up exactly with the Wind Ruins in TMC.
4) The Tower of Flames was a recent development in FSA.

It was a mistake to bring it up, then. I brought it up to show some FSA-ALttP similarities, which are obvious, as well as ALttP-OoT similarities, but I really don't think that these things have any storyline relevance.

Aside from the transformation of the Lost Woods, and the obvious attempts at consistency between FSA and ALttP, which don't exist in OoT.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 July 2007 - 06:46 AM.

[Person]

I think that the Tower of Flames and Tower of Hera are the same tower. In OoT, the Fire Temple is deep within the crater, so it can't be that. In ALttP, we have a tower on top of Death Mountain. In FSA, we have a tower on top of Death Mountain.

As for the Eastern Palace, no way that's the Forest Temple. It's nowhere near a forest!

[CID Farwin]

As for the Eastern Palace, no way that's the Forest Temple. It's nowhere near a forest!

Have you looked at the FSA map? the Eastern Palace is surrounded by forest.

1) No precedent for any of these locations being the same.

Except for, you know, them being in the exact same spot and all.

2) The Desert Temple was specifically built for the purpose of guarding the way to the Pyramid, whereas the Spirit Temple certainly was not.

And the one in ALttP was TOTALLY built for this purpose. Right.[/sarcasm]

swamps = off OoT's map, between Gerudo Valley and Lake Hylia

Funny how there's clouds there. Like where Death Mountain's second peak should be. And where Kakariko Village should be.

But that theory was another one with games after TWW, wasn't it? I've said that I won't consider any timelines that have that. Not being stubborn, but to me it's just a fact that no old games come after. Just like I'll never consider any timelines that have MM after AoL.

But I didn't expect YOU to respond to it.

Edited by CID Farwin, 29 July 2007 - 05:03 PM.

[LionHarted]

Except for, you know, them being in the exact same spot and all.

I thought all the buildings in Old Hyrule were destroyed in the flood, according to you?

And the one in ALttP was TOTALLY built for this purpose. Right.[/sarcasm]

The one in ALttP doesn't claim to have been built for any specific purpose. If FSA predates ALttP, though, it makes sense that it would serve the purpose it was built for in FSA and not in ALttP.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 July 2007 - 05:22 PM.

[Jumbie]

But that theory was another one with games after TWW, wasn't it? I've said that I won't consider any timelines that have that.

You're as bad as people who still think there's only one timeline.

Heh, you sound as if my conviction was some outdated theory - but I ask you, outdated by what evidence?! There has never been the slightest hint at any game taking place after TWW+PH. NEVER. To me it's exactly as impossible as, say, OoT after FSA.

False. You cross from one peak to the other to reach the Tower of Flames.

Well okay, I disregarded that one because it's much smaller than the other one. But at least it still isn't a crater.

Here's a nice overview:
 ALP.jpg   103.73K   10 downloads  FSA.jpg   59.69K   15 downloads
Seems like the first top you climb in FSA is the peak where you get the Ether medaillon in ALttP.

No we don't, especially since OoT never featured a place called "Spectacle Rock", but, rather, a pair of volcanic rocks (which would appear as "Spectacle rock" formations by default, because how else can two rocks sitting next to each other look?).

Exactly, two rocks next to each other look like Spectactle Rock in Zelda - and that's the whole point. The programmers were not obliged to include this rock formation in OoT, unless it was intended to replicate Spectactle Rock from ALttP. They put minute detail to it, after all. Looking at the Fire Temple's dungeon map, it gets even more apparent.
I've always given the appearance priority over the name (for example with "Lake Hylia" in FSA).

The Desert Temple was specifically built for the purpose of guarding the way to the Pyramid, whereas the Spirit Temple certainly was not.

True, but the Desert Temple could have been built in the ruins of the Spirit Temple.

The swamps line up exactly with the Wind Ruins in TMC.

I didn't say anything about the Wind Ruins. But I would place them around that same place anyway, between Gerudo Valley and Lake Hylia, where we coincidentally have ruins in ALttP too. So, yeah.

The Tower of Flames was a recent development in FSA.

Was it? I'd like to see the quote.

I think that the Tower of Flames and Tower of Hera are the same tower.

I really hope nobody on the face of the Earth will refute that..!

As for the Eastern Palace, no way that's the Forest Temple. It's nowhere near a forest!

That's because the forest died away, of course. See the yellow trees south of the Eastern Temple area in ALttP? That could be the former houses of the Kokiri. And the confined place even farther south could be the clearing where the Deku Tree once stood.
And then, also what CID said about the same place in FSA.

Funny how there's clouds there. Like where Death Mountain's second peak should be. And where Kakariko Village should be.

But I didn't expect YOU to respond to it.

Hehe alright, you're my man!

Edited by Jumbie, 30 July 2007 - 07:54 AM.

[Fyxe]

That's because the forest died away, of course. See the yellow trees south of the Eastern Temple area in ALttP? That could be the former houses of the Kokiri. And the confined place even farther south could be the clearing where the Deku Tree once stood.

Oh god STOP.

All of you.

[SOAP]

That's because the forest died away, of course. See the yellow trees south of the Eastern Temple area in ALttP? That could be the former houses of the Kokiri. And the confined place even farther south could be the clearing where the Deku Tree once stood.

Oh god STOP.

All of you.

Poor Fyxe. She has to deal with so much...

[Jumbie]

Oh god STOP.

All of you.

No need to read. No need to post. No need to get angry about a little fan fiction.
I've always had it clear, even in this thread again, that I look at geography only when my timeline is already working.
The current business in this thread is about fanfiction, so could you for Heaven's sake stop the complaining!

[LionHarted]

Jumbie, your ALttP thumbnail shows only the western peak of Death Mountain. The eastern peak houses Turtle Rock (in the Dark World).

There has never been the slightest hint at any game taking place after TWW+PH.

There has never been the slightest hint of any game taking place after TP, either.

Especially not The Minish Cap, Four Swords, Four Swords Adventures, The Legend of Zelda, The Adventure of Link, or the Oracles games, A Link to the Past, or Link's Awakening.

In other words, the rest of the unplaced series.

You could argue that the Master Sword pedestal and hero's bloodline in TP are evidence of a post-TP ALttP, but then I could argue that the Triumph Forks reference in TMC is evidence of post-TWW TMC, and that the massive influx of TWW characters into the FS saga world evidences the same, and that sections of the PH Great Sea make a nice segue into the world of LoZ/AoL.

Edited by LionHarted, 30 July 2007 - 11:35 AM.

[Person]

The Forest Temple is a medieval palace with battlements and a moat. The Eastern Palace looks like an ancient Indian temple, with monolithic statues everywhere. One of its most ubiquitous puzzles, the rolling-ball traps, are not present in the forest temple. I say that they two temples are far too different to be the same.

[Fyxe]

Poor Fyxe. She has to deal with so much...

C'mon, it's hard being one of the few voices of reason on the Storyline forum. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who actually has a sense of reality.

[LionHarted]

C'mon, it's hard being one of the few voices of reason on the Storyline forum. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who actually has a sense of reality.

Well, you certainly are one to toot your own horn.

[Hero of Legend]

C'mon, it's hard being one of the few voices of reason on the Storyline forum. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who actually has a sense of reality.

^Reason I don't post as much anymore.

No, not Fyxe, what she said. It's just to fucking cumbersome.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 July 2007 - 12:33 PM.

[Jumbie]

Lion, seems ya fighting against windmills now..

Jumbie, your ALttP thumbnail shows only the western peak of Death Mountain. The eastern peak houses Turtle Rock (in the Dark World).

Sure, but what's the problem? I'm aware that ALttP features an eastern peak. Only the stage in FSA doesn't lead us there, so there's nothing more to compare. The Turtle Rock area must of course exist somewhere in FSA though, whether the silly and contradictory overworld map depicts it or not.

There has never been the slightest hint at any game taking place after TWW+PH.

There has never been the slightest hint of any game taking place after TP, either.

And you never see me claim that any old game has to happen after TP, mind you!

Especially not The Minish Cap, Four Swords, Four Swords Adventures, The Legend of Zelda, The Adventure of Link, or the Oracles games, A Link to the Past, or Link's Awakening.
In other words, the rest of the unplaced series.

I have all the games you named, minus TMC, in a non-TP and non-TWW timeline. Incidentally, the very reason why I decided so, is that I cannot envision ALttP happening after either TP or TWW.

You could argue that the Master Sword pedestal and hero's bloodline in TP are evidence of a post-TP ALttP, but then I could argue that the Triumph Forks reference in TMC is evidence of post-TWW TMC, and that the massive influx of TWW characters into the FS saga world evidences the same, and that sections of the PH Great Sea make a nice segue into the world of LoZ/AoL.

You're addressing the wrong theorist now. All of the possible arguments you named, for either side, are complete crap.

The Forest Temple is a medieval palace with battlements and a moat. The Eastern Palace looks like an ancient Indian temple, with monolithic statues everywhere.

Actually the Forest Temple didn't remind me of European castles at all. To me it did have, also supported by the music, a rather oriental feeling. Indian temples are typically in the forest, so it'd fit. And we don't get to see much of the temple's exterior save the entrance area, which is fairly similar to the Eastern Temple. Hmm.. eastern.. oriental... wonderful!

One of its most ubiquitous puzzles, the rolling-ball traps, are not present in the forest temple. I say that they two temples are far too different to be the same.

Redesign. By human or divine hands. I won't dare to fanfic any further so that someone won't continue spamming.

C'mon, it's hard being one of the few voices of reason on the Storyline forum. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who actually has a sense of reality.

If you've also read my other type of posts, you should know how much sense of reality I have. We must have a general knowledge of others and their theories, so I know that you often make sense, but more often you just deny any nice ideas solely because they aren't backed up by solid proof. And that is simply sad. After all, this isn't science here, it's *fun*, and you're busy taking it away.

Do complain when people contradict canon - do not complain when they peacefully fic around.
If you want to ban fanfic from the Storyline forum, why not try banning all the post-TWW timelines? (I'm using "ban" in non-forum usage, of course)

Edited by Jumbie, 30 July 2007 - 12:34 PM.