168 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

A time loop IS a paradox.

[CID Farwin]

Oh, okay. That's what it means. I thought that the "paradox" was referring to something different.

[Hero of Legend]

I say it doesn't, due to KoRL's quote about Link not being related to the Hero, and that the only alternative is that he is a reincarnation, a logical impossibility.

Since when did Zelda follow logic? Regardless, it is obvious the King is simply telling Jabun there is no direct connection between them, like; "This isn't the HoT, nor his son, but you gotta trust me anyway. You know, I think he's been sent by the gods and stuff." Because that's what he says. And that's what everyone else (Valoo, Deku Tree, Gohdan, Ganondorf) says.

[CID Farwin]

Score one for us non-literals!

Edited by CID Farwin, 31 July 2007 - 12:23 PM.

[Person]

If there was someone of the bloodline, then why didn't the ToC go to the next guy in line? Wouldn't it go to whomever had the qualities of the hero?

TWW Link was chosen by destiny, as were LoZ Link and probably most of the other ones. TP Link and ALttP Link were chosen by bloodline specifically.

[Hero of Legend]

Score one for us non-literals!

Well, you at least have to put things in the context of the game.

I never saw what was so hard to understand about this anyway. Yeah, the King says what he does, but since when was it forbidden for a narrative to clarify/change a previous statement? Just look at Star Wars:

ObiWan: "Darth Vader murdered your father."

Darth Vader: "I AM your father!"

Zelda Fan: "NOOOO!!! I trust the good guy! Bad guys are crazy and lie!!11!"

WTF? Yeah.

If there was someone of the bloodline, then why didn't the ToC go to the next guy in line? Wouldn't it go to whomever had the qualities of the hero?

No. TP was the only game in which this was the case, and it wasn't even properly explained there.

TWW Link was chosen by destiny, as were LoZ Link and probably most of the other ones. TP Link and ALttP Link were chosen by bloodline specifically.

Yeah, I'm not arguing with that. Unless we assume it is the case for every Link.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 July 2007 - 12:48 PM.

[Person]

I just say that if TWW Link was a reincarnation or descendant of Link, the ToC would go to him, because he would've been born with the qualities of the hero. But it didn't. It got split up and hid until someone with the qualities showed up to gather it. Kind of like how there was no hero in the AoL backstory, so the king hid the ToC until someone could find it.

Thus, I say that LoZ Link and TWW Link are not literal descendants of OoT Link, while TP Link and ALttP Link are.

[Hero of Legend]

TWW Link was born centuries after the ToC was split and hidden (by the HoT, or someone close to him), and that one-of-a-time plot device saying he should have it wasn't even invented yet.

Thus, it just plain doesn't make any sense for him to have it. Similarly ALttP Link doesn't have it, because there no reason there either.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 July 2007 - 12:58 PM.

[LionHarted]

If there was someone of the bloodline, then why didn't the ToC go to the next guy in line? Wouldn't it go to whomever had the qualities of the hero?

TWW Link was chosen by destiny, as were LoZ Link and probably most of the other ones. TP Link and ALttP Link were chosen by bloodline specifically.

1) The ToC has nothing inherently to do with the bloodline (otherwise ALttP Link would have it). It was inherited by TP Link because OoT Link was able to exist beyond the end of OoT to pass it down himself. It was split in the Adult Timeline specifically because OoT Link moved out of the timeline, and therefore couldn't hand it down.

2) TP/ALttP both make it clear that only those of the bloodline can become the hero, and, indeed, that every hero will come from the hero's/knights' bloodline.

[MikePetersSucks]

Oh, okay. That's what it means. I thought that the "paradox" was referring to something different.

"A paradox is an apparently true statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which defies intuition."

If there was someone of the bloodline, then why didn't the ToC go to the next guy in line? Wouldn't it go to whomever had the qualities of the hero?

With the exception of TP Link, no Link has ever just INHERITED the Triforce just because they have the same bloodline/reincarnation/whatever. And when the Triforce is split into eight pieces, inheritance becomes complicated.

TWW Link was chosen by destiny, as were LoZ Link and probably most of the other ones. TP Link and ALttP Link were chosen by bloodline specifically.

TP Link was never called out on bloodline. He just had "The power of the Hero" inside him, or some junk. It could have easily been reincarnation.

I just say that if TWW Link was a reincarnation or descendant of Link, the ToC would go to him, because he would've been born with the qualities of the hero. But it didn't. It got split up and hid until someone with the qualities showed up to gather it. Kind of like how there was no hero in the AoL backstory, so the king hid the ToC until someone could find it.

It was also split up and sealed before he was even born. What was it gonna do, shoot out of the chests, remerge, and go into his infant body?

Thus, I say that LoZ Link and TWW Link are not literal descendants of OoT Link, while TP Link and ALttP Link are.

Wrong. Either all Links are related or none of them are.

[CID Farwin]

Either all Links are related or none of them are.

Just like how either OoT is the IW or it's not.

[Fyxe]

Wrong. Either all Links are related or none of them are.

Since when?

[CID Farwin]

Since this:

It has been said that whenever
disaster waylays the royal
family, a Hero shall emerge
from the bloodline of the
Knights of Hyrule...

[Fyxe]

Where's that quote from? I need a reminder. I remember it was said that it would happen to stop the Cataclysm, but I don't remember it happening every time something bad happens.

Wait. Even if that quote does mean the same thing in context, it's not true anyway. No hero came to save Hyrule from Ganon in TWW's backstory. The world was flooded. No hero arrived.

This is why the Link from TWW is NOT directly related to any of the others, which is kind of the point of the whole game.

[LionHarted]

Even if that quote does mean the same thing in context, it's not true anyway. No hero came to save Hyrule from Ganon in TWW's backstory. The world was flooded. No hero arrived.

Somebody turned the Master Sword into a seal on Hyrule.

And the ALttP IW story originally said no Hero was found, but OoT's telling has a hero appear... simply too late to stop Ganon from attacking Hyrule.

Edited by LionHarted, 31 July 2007 - 02:13 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Somebody turned the Master Sword into a seal on Hyrule. wink.gif

Good point. And also this is what makes people think that a hero did appear, but for one reason or another failed.

Where's that quote from? I need a reminder. I remember it was said that it would happen to stop the Cataclysm, but I don't remember it happening every time something bad happens.

And here's the complete quote:

Generations ago, an order of
knights protected the Hylian
royalty. These Knights of
Hyrule were also guardians
of the Pendant of Courage.
It has been said that whenever
disaster waylays the royal
family, a Hero shall emerge
from the bloodline of the
Knights of Hyrule...
Unfortunately, most of them
were destroyed in the great
war against evil that took
place when the seven sages
created their seal, so it was
thought that a hero would
never again emerge...

I think you're thinking of this one:

If a person who has an evil heart gets the Triforce, a Hero is destined to appear... ...and he alone must face the person who began the Great Cataclysm. If the evil one destroys the Hero, nothing can save the world from his wicked reign. Only a person of the Knights Of Hyrule, who protected the royalty of Hylia, can become the Hero...You are of their blood-line, aren't you?

Edited by CID Farwin, 31 July 2007 - 02:28 PM.

[Person]

I think the gods did the seal thing, not a hero.

[Hero of Legend]

Wait. Even if that quote does mean the same thing in context, it's not true anyway. No hero came to save Hyrule from Ganon in TWW's backstory. The world was flooded. No hero arrived.

Bravo. I was going to say that. But, of course, people are already trying to explain this away fact...

This is why the Link from TWW is NOT directly related to any of the others, which is kind of the point of the whole game.

Wuh? What does the goddesses randomly deciding to actually do something rather than sending a Hero to do their dirty work have to do with TWW Link?

[Person]

It means that the bloodline dies out, and that TWW Link is of a new bloodline. Since evil arose and no hero appeared, the bloodline is probably dead.

[LionHarted]

It means that the bloodline dies out, and that TWW Link is of a new bloodline.

It's implied that Knights of Hyrule engaged Ganon post-escape, pre-TWW.

TWW Link could be descended from them.

Edited by LionHarted, 31 July 2007 - 02:24 PM.

[Person]

The Knights engaged Ganon, but they couldn't breach his tower, and lost. But then they died. But I still don't think that TWW Link is related to them. He's some kid from a podunk island who isn't "destined" or "chosen" like all of the others are. He becomes the hero's heir when he finds the ToC, much like LoZ Link does in AoL.

[CID Farwin]

What about Orca?

[LionHarted]

He becomes the hero's heir when he finds the ToC, much like LoZ Link does in AoL.

mmm, the King of Red Lions intended for him to find it, not knowing that he would be able to assume it unto himself. I still say this, coupled with his ability to wield the Master Sword, indicates that he's truly destined to be the Hero.

And then are the proofs:

You have done well to find your
way to this place.

Oh chosen one...

O great hero, chosen by the Master Sword!

Edited by LionHarted, 31 July 2007 - 02:34 PM.

[CID Farwin]

I thought any hero could wield the Master Sword.

[LionHarted]

TWW Link is "chosen by the Master Sword."

[Person]

All of those proofs show that he is destined to be the hero by the Master sword and by the gods, but not by bloodline, as is that case with TP Link.

[CID Farwin]

TWW Link is "chosen by the Master Sword."

True.

Edited by CID Farwin, 31 July 2007 - 02:43 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

It means that the bloodline dies out, and that TWW Link is of a new bloodline. Since evil arose and no hero appeared, the bloodline is probably dead.

So why did TWW Link appear? What? New bloodline? Why didn't that happen the first time Ganondorf broke free? It doesn't make any sense with the old quotes regardless.

He's some kid from a podunk island who isn't "destined" or "chosen" like all of the others are. He becomes the hero's heir when he finds the ToC

That's just false.

All of those proofs show that he is destined to be the hero by the Master sword and by the gods, but not by bloodline, as is that case with TP Link.

Where is the proof of this, anyway? Yeah, Link can pull a bunch of fancy stunts because he's related to the HoT, but the power of the gods? The Hero's Spirit never says he got that because of their kinship.

I thought any hero could wield the Master Sword.

Nope. Only a true, Chosen Hero (Link) can do it. As I've said a billion times already, that's why the MS doesn't glow when Zelda holds it in TWW.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 July 2007 - 02:52 PM.

[LionHarted]

All of those proofs show that he is destined to be the hero by the Master sword and by the gods, but not by bloodline, as is that case with TP Link.

No. It's just not showing that he is.

Lack of evidence does not indicate lack.

[CID Farwin]

Nope. Only a true, Chosen Hero (Link) can do it. As I've said a billion times already, that's why the MS doesn't glow when Zelda holds it in TWW.

Okay. Only a true Hero(who has been only Link) would be able to wield it. I forgot about that word. And it doesn't glow? hm. I guess I'll have to replay TWW now.