320 replies to this topic

[Raien]

Assuming he never had a point of vulnerability is equally speculation. As Fyxe said, we know virtually nothing about this time period.

Considering that the combined efforts of the Hero and the Seven Sages could only seal Ganondorf in OoT, I interpret (not speculate) that he was too powerful to be stopped by other means. And in the execution scene, Ganondorf had just revived his powers with the ToP and the Sages could do nothing to contain that power, so they sealed him away in the Twilight Realm, which further supports my interpretation.

[Chaltab]

Assuming he never had a point of vulnerability is equally speculation. As Fyxe said, we know virtually nothing about this time period.

Considering that the combined efforts of the Hero and the Seven Sages could only seal Ganondorf in OoT, I interpret (not speculate) that he was too powerful to be stopped by other means.

Because he'd turned into Ganon. Not to mention, one seventeen year old kid defeated him even in this form. Even if the Triforce of Power made him unkillable, he was clearly incapacatated and, had there been enough men, could have bene subdued.

And there's no proof he even had the Triforce of Power in the first place, before that point in TP.

[Raien]

And there's no proof he even had the Triforce of Power in the first place, before that point in TP.

Which I presume goes back to your belief that the Adult Timeline Ganondorf gave the Child Timeline Ganondorf the ToP. At this point, I stop discussion because we are in speculation territory.

Edited by jhurvid, 22 May 2007 - 10:11 PM.

[Chaltab]

And there's no proof he even had the Triforce of Power in the first place, before that point in TP.

Which I presume goes back to your belief that the Adult Timeline Ganondorf have the Child Timeline Ganondorf the ToP. At this point, I stop discussion because we are in speculation territory.

Not at all. That's just my theory and I don't expect anyone else to accept it or try and disprove it. Weren't you just arguing that Ganondorf may have been granted the Triforce at his death by the goddesses in order to spur the Kingdom out of complacency?

Edited by Chaltab, 22 May 2007 - 10:11 PM.

[FDL]

Assuming he never had a point of vulnerability is equally speculation. As Fyxe said, we know virtually nothing about this time period.

Considering that the combined efforts of the Hero and the Seven Sages could only seal Ganondorf in OoT, I interpret (not speculate) that he was too powerful to be stopped by other means. And in the execution scene, Ganondorf had just revived his powers with the ToP and the Sages could do nothing to contain that power, so they sealed him away in the Twilight Realm, which further supports my interpretation.

In OoT, Link by himself beats the shit out of Ganondorf and everyone, including Zelda, believes Ganondorf to be dead. It's not until the ToP activates that they're forced to seal him, which is exactly what happened in TP. Another difference is that the sages in OoT are not able to live in Hyrule anymore(I know there's that ending scene, but virtually everything else implies that they no longer can) and yet the TP sages were actually able to exist in Hyrule and thus they could go after Ganondorf themselves. Plus, they didn't just beat him through strength, they actually used his arrogance against him.

[Person]

I believe that the ToP simply "activated" in that scene, much like it did in OoT. Ganon's lack of resistance does not prove that it was granted by anyone, only that he already had it and it "activated" to save his life, giving him more strength to break the chains.

[Vertiboy]

Ah that's what I meant in my pm: I don't think that's a plot hole, it's just the authors deliberately deciding that the Triforce does not follow the same rules ordinary items do.

Oops, my mistake. As I said in the PM, the developers can pretty much make the Triforce do whatever they want. They usually try to make it somewhat consistent from game to game.

[FDL]

I do think that the chains and the way they bested him involved magic, they're sages. That's what they do.

I ask you again, why were they unable to do this in OoT? Why were they forced to seal Ganondorf and his evil magic in the Sacred Realm?

Sorry, I didn't notice this before, these sages are clearly different in some ways, even if they're the same batch(which isn't necessarily true). These sages are physically in Hyrule, and not confined to the CoS. Don't bring up that last scene either, because Saria, Ruto, and Impa all say that they will not be able to leave and lead normal lives. Anyway, secondly, I think that the sages ARE the reason why time changed, and I think Link is also involved. Finally, I think Ganondorf wasn't as powerful right after he got the ToP than he was seven years later. It's how it's always been, and even TP itself proves it when Ganondorf comes back far more powerful than before. Anymore, however, would be baseless so I'll stop at the moment.

[Vertiboy]

These sages are physically in Hyrule, and not confined to the CoS. Don't bring up that last scene either, because Saria, Ruto, and Impa all say that they will not be able to leave and lead normal lives.

...but being a Sage isn't their normal life. When they sealed Ganon in the Sacred Realm, they were acting as Sages. They were not leading a normal life. If they were to leave the Chamber of the Sages in order to seal Ganon in "magic chains" or whatever BS, they would also be acting as Sages, meaning that they are not leading a normal life.

Besides, since when have we been allowed to say, "Pay no attention to the last scene of the game!!! There is nothing to see there!!!"

Also, keep in mind that they appear in Ganon's Castle every time he breaks a barrior to wish him good luck or some BS.

We see the Sages in Ganon's Castle. We see them on Death Mountain. It is a canon fact that they can leave the Sacred Realm and Chamber of the Sages because we see them do it multiple times, and if you say otherwise you are ignorant. It is that simple. Why do you even bother debating if you think you can ignore whatever facts you want?

Edited by Vertiboy, 24 May 2007 - 04:22 PM.

[FDL]

Are you serious? Why do Saria and Ruto even say they can't leave the SR then? And how come Mido and King Zora are sad RIGHT BEFORE THAT DEATH MOUNTAIN SCENE? That scene was obviously taking artistic license, merely trying to show that these sages are still watching over Hyrule, and if you say otherwise you are ignorant, plain and simple. It's said, in quotes, that these sages cannot stay in Hyrule anymore. This is a canon fact, and you aren't going to be able to say otherwise. As much as I wish otherwise, it's pretty obvious that there are differences between these sages and the Arbiter sages.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 25 May 2007 - 12:52 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

They cannot stay in Hyrule anymore "leading normal lives." This is a canon fact, and you aren't going to be able to say otherwise.

[Vertiboy]

Earlier I remember discussing the concept of when a holder of a Triforce has access to its power. I said that it was as soon as the holder obtains the crest, and others said that it took some time. I have recently found an idea that pretty much makes that a moot point.

Everyone here knows that the adult portion of OoT takes place 7 years after Link draws the Master Sword in his childhood. There should be no debate about that. I am willing to bet that Ganondorf's take over of Hyrule didn't take place shortly before Link awakened as an adult. I would say that when Link awakens, Ganondorf has had control of Hyrule for a few years. Maybe not all 7, but pretty close to it. I will repeat it again. Adult OoT takes place 7 years after child OoT.

Now that that is out of the way, the Aonuma interview said that the execution scene took place several years after OoT's child ending. No matter when you believe he was arrested (or if he could even be arrested with the Triforce of Power), that is also not debatable. I will repeat it again. Ganondorf's attempted execution takes place several years after child OoT.

Now I am willing to bet that several years is a little more than 2-3 years. I would think that it would be at least as long as 7 years, if not most certainly longer. Now here is an inconsistency in the belief that a Triforce's power can only be used over a certain amount of time. Why is it that in the 7 years between child and adult OoT, Ganondorf is able to harness the ToP to take control of an entire kingdom, but in the several years between child OoT and Ganondorf's execution, he can't use the powers until after he is seemingly executed? What difference is there in the child timeline that wouldn't allow Ganondorf to use the ToP to escape imprisonment before execution that didn't exist in the adult timeline? It just doesn't add up. No matter how you look at it, unless you want to make up some more fan fiction BS or say, "Hey, just ignore that!!! It doesn't count!!!" Ganondorf's ToP should have activated sooner in the child timeline if he didn't have access to its power until a certain point.

The only other option would be that until the execution scene, Ganondorf did not have the ToP. He did not have it because the Triforce had not yet split. The Triforce had not yet split because Ganondorf was prevented from entering the Sacred Realm. He could not enter the SR because Link and Zelda decided to leave him alone to stop him from getting the Triforce. It was possible for them to stop him from getting the Triforce because Link arrived before the Triforce split. The end.

[LionHarted]

Why is it that in the 7 years between child and adult OoT, Ganondorf is able to harness the ToP to take control of an entire kingdom, but in the several years between child OoT and Ganondorf's execution, he can't use the powers until after he is seemingly executed? What difference is there in the child timeline that wouldn't allow Ganondorf to use the ToP to escape imprisonment before execution that didn't exist in the adult timeline?

What difference? Well, there's Link's conversation with Princess Zelda, which seems to have resulted in an action to stop him that wasn't delayed seven years because the Evil King's darkness stopped seven sages from awakening.

Edited by LionHarted, 25 May 2007 - 03:44 PM.

[Arturo]

Are you serious? Why do Saria and Ruto even say they can't leave the SR then? And how come Mido and King Zora are sad RIGHT BEFORE THAT DEATH MOUNTAIN SCENE? That scene was obviously taking artistic license, merely trying to show that these sages are still watching over Hyrule, and if you say otherwise you are ignorant, plain and simple. It's said, in quotes, that these sages cannot stay in Hyrule anymore. This is a canon fact, and you aren't going to be able to say otherwise. As much as I wish otherwise, it's pretty obvious that there are differences between these sages and the Arbiter sages.

Ruto says nothing about not being able to abandon the SR. In fact, she says the OPPOSITE:

I grant my eternal love to you.
Well, that's what I want to say, but I don't think I can offer that now.

She cannot offer that on that moment. But she might be able to offer that in a future time. That is what "now" means.

As for Saria, it seems very liekly taht when she says "world", she means it ina metaphoricalw ay. They are of a different race, he's different to her and her friends.
And it is a canon fact the sages can leave the Realm. Because no-one says otherwise, and we actually see them there.

And tehy are sad, because tehy miss them. That's obvious.

If it was a mettaphor, why does Rauru not appear in that scene? Does he not look after Hyrule?

[Raien]

Here's an idea. Let's assume that each Sage has the power to leave the Sacred Realm through their respective temples, and take Link with them. Since Rauru's temple is in the Sacred Realm, he can't leave.

[Arturo]

We see him in Ganon's Castle, remember?

[Raien]

We see him in Ganon's Castle, remember?

Or was that his image reflected in front of Link?

[MikePetersSucks]

Sages can teleport. That's all we need to know. We don't need any of this dumb "Reflected image" bullshit.

Earlier I remember discussing the concept of when a holder of a Triforce has access to its power. I said that it was as soon as the holder obtains the crest, and others said that it took some time. I have recently found an idea that pretty much makes that a moot point.

Everyone here knows that the adult portion of OoT takes place 7 years after Link draws the Master Sword in his childhood. There should be no debate about that. I am willing to bet that Ganondorf's take over of Hyrule didn't take place shortly before Link awakened as an adult. I would say that when Link awakens, Ganondorf has had control of Hyrule for a few years. Maybe not all 7, but pretty close to it. I will repeat it again. Adult OoT takes place 7 years after child OoT.

Now that that is out of the way, the Aonuma interview said that the execution scene took place several years after OoT's child ending. No matter when you believe he was arrested (or if he could even be arrested with the Triforce of Power), that is also not debatable. I will repeat it again. Ganondorf's attempted execution takes place several years after child OoT.

Now I am willing to bet that several years is a little more than 2-3 years. I would think that it would be at least as long as 7 years, if not most certainly longer. Now here is an inconsistency in the belief that a Triforce's power can only be used over a certain amount of time. Why is it that in the 7 years between child and adult OoT, Ganondorf is able to harness the ToP to take control of an entire kingdom, but in the several years between child OoT and Ganondorf's execution, he can't use the powers until after he is seemingly executed? What difference is there in the child timeline that wouldn't allow Ganondorf to use the ToP to escape imprisonment before execution that didn't exist in the adult timeline? It just doesn't add up. No matter how you look at it, unless you want to make up some more fan fiction BS or say, "Hey, just ignore that!!! It doesn't count!!!" Ganondorf's ToP should have activated sooner in the child timeline if he didn't have access to its power until a certain point.

The only other option would be that until the execution scene, Ganondorf did not have the ToP. He did not have it because the Triforce had not yet split. The Triforce had not yet split because Ganondorf was prevented from entering the Sacred Realm. He could not enter the SR because Link and Zelda decided to leave him alone to stop him from getting the Triforce. It was possible for them to stop him from getting the Triforce because Link arrived before the Triforce split. The end.

Or, much more simply, how one can wield the Triforce differs on the circumstances, instead of set rules like "you can use it immediately/you can only use it exactly after this period of time."

[FDL]

Earlier I remember discussing the concept of when a holder of a Triforce has access to its power. I said that it was as soon as the holder obtains the crest, and others said that it took some time. I have recently found an idea that pretty much makes that a moot point.

Everyone here knows that the adult portion of OoT takes place 7 years after Link draws the Master Sword in his childhood. There should be no debate about that. I am willing to bet that Ganondorf's take over of Hyrule didn't take place shortly before Link awakened as an adult. I would say that when Link awakens, Ganondorf has had control of Hyrule for a few years. Maybe not all 7, but pretty close to it. I will repeat it again. Adult OoT takes place 7 years after child OoT.

Now that that is out of the way, the Aonuma interview said that the execution scene took place several years after OoT's child ending. No matter when you believe he was arrested (or if he could even be arrested with the Triforce of Power), that is also not debatable. I will repeat it again. Ganondorf's attempted execution takes place several years after child OoT.

Now I am willing to bet that several years is a little more than 2-3 years. I would think that it would be at least as long as 7 years, if not most certainly longer. Now here is an inconsistency in the belief that a Triforce's power can only be used over a certain amount of time. Why is it that in the 7 years between child and adult OoT, Ganondorf is able to harness the ToP to take control of an entire kingdom, but in the several years between child OoT and Ganondorf's execution, he can't use the powers until after he is seemingly executed? What difference is there in the child timeline that wouldn't allow Ganondorf to use the ToP to escape imprisonment before execution that didn't exist in the adult timeline? It just doesn't add up. No matter how you look at it, unless you want to make up some more fan fiction BS or say, "Hey, just ignore that!!! It doesn't count!!!" Ganondorf's ToP should have activated sooner in the child timeline if he didn't have access to its power until a certain point.

The only other option would be that until the execution scene, Ganondorf did not have the ToP. He did not have it because the Triforce had not yet split. The Triforce had not yet split because Ganondorf was prevented from entering the Sacred Realm. He could not enter the SR because Link and Zelda decided to leave him alone to stop him from getting the Triforce. It was possible for them to stop him from getting the Triforce because Link arrived before the Triforce split. The end.

Actually, your point is moot because I didn't even say what you're implying I said. You need to turn off your friggin' tirade-mode occasionally and actually listen to what someone says. What I said was, Ganondorf, and anyone else with a Triforce piece, is not immediately granted all the power of the Triforce when they first obtain it. I have already given you examples of this, and you've yet to actually disprove any of it(in fact, I believe you or jhurvid tried to use the "Ignore That!!! thing on ME). Also, the Triforce power is not some kind of payment plan either, where it's power increases in yearly increments. You have to actively be attempting you use it's power. And that's why the "several years" point is moot, because Link in TP has apparently had the ToC for years and it doesn't activate at all until he's in danger. That's basically the same situation with Ganondorf in TP and OoT, they can't do something(become Ganon, break the chains) until they've nearly been killed and their defense mechanism kicks in.

Are you serious? Why do Saria and Ruto even say they can't leave the SR then? And how come Mido and King Zora are sad RIGHT BEFORE THAT DEATH MOUNTAIN SCENE? That scene was obviously taking artistic license, merely trying to show that these sages are still watching over Hyrule, and if you say otherwise you are ignorant, plain and simple. It's said, in quotes, that these sages cannot stay in Hyrule anymore. This is a canon fact, and you aren't going to be able to say otherwise. As much as I wish otherwise, it's pretty obvious that there are differences between these sages and the Arbiter sages.

Ruto says nothing about not being able to abandon the SR. In fact, she says the OPPOSITE:

I grant my eternal love to you.
Well, that's what I want to say, but I don't think I can offer that now.

She cannot offer that on that moment. But she might be able to offer that in a future time. That is what "now" means.

No, I don't think you're correct in this. None of the characters in the game act as though they're able to return in any normal way, and that's the truth. For one, when you speak to Mido after the Forest Temple, Link tells him "Saria isn't coming back". If this was only until Ganondorf was defeated, I don't see why Link would even say that. Same goes for Ruto, she could marry Link after Ganondorf's gone. Another instance of this is Impa, who passes the "protect Zelda" torch to Link, and again makes no note of being able to return to her duties later.

If you all believe that they're merely unable to leave the SR for non-Sage duties(though I don't see how partying on a mountain is sagely at all), that's still not in accord with the Mirror Sages because they are said to have gone off and lived at Hyrule Castle and tutored Zelda. That's not their duty at all, and so again I say that their appearance(and Link's) may be why events changed.

[Showsni]

Ruto says nothing about not being able to abandon the SR. In fact, she says the OPPOSITE:

I grant my eternal love to you.
Well, that's what I want to say, but I don't think I can offer that now.

She cannot offer that on that moment. But she might be able to offer that in a future time. That is what "now" means.

It seems more likely that she can't offer it "now" whereas she could in the past - now that the situation has changed, she can no longer offer eternal love.

[Fyxe]

'Sage' simply means 'wise man' or 'wise person', someone skilled in magic and intellect. This doesn't force any extra duties on them.

However, in Japanese culture looking after a temple is a full time job, and it means people are restricted in what they can do with others. It means they can't live 'normal' lives, but it also doesn't mean they can't ever leave their temple.

When the Sages appear on the mountain, this is not metaphorical, they are really there. Whether they can involve themselves with everyone else is a different matter entirely. Frankly, nobody here knows for sure how much they are limited due to their duties, but to assume it means they can't do anything normal is an assumption too far.

[FDL]

Ruto says nothing about not being able to abandon the SR. In fact, she says the OPPOSITE:

I grant my eternal love to you.
Well, that's what I want to say, but I don't think I can offer that now.

She cannot offer that on that moment. But she might be able to offer that in a future time. That is what "now" means.

It seems more likely that she can't offer it "now" whereas she could in the past - now that the situation has changed, she can no longer offer eternal love.

I agree.

'Sage' simply means 'wise man' or 'wise person', someone skilled in magic and intellect. This doesn't force any extra duties on them.

However, in Japanese culture looking after a temple is a full time job, and it means people are restricted in what they can do with others. It means they can't live 'normal' lives, but it also doesn't mean they can't ever leave their temple.

When the Sages appear on the mountain, this is not metaphorical, they are really there. Whether they can involve themselves with everyone else is a different matter entirely. Frankly, nobody here knows for sure how much they are limited due to their duties, but to assume it means they can't do anything normal is an assumption too far.

It's not an assumption, they do say that.

Oh...I see... Saria won't ever come back...But...I...I made a promise to Saria...If Link came back, I would be sure to tell him that Saria had been waiting for him...Because Saria...really...liked...

As a reward...I grant my eternal love to you.Well, that's what I want to say, but I don't think I can offer that now.

and

I have to stay here... You go to Princess Zelda's side and protect her on my behalf.

All of these things point to the fact that the Sages of OoT cannot leave the SR in any great capacity. Even if the end isn't just being symbolic, every quote about the subject says they can't return to doing whatever they did before. And as you can see, even something important like protecting Zelda isn't allowed. Already that contrasts the fact that the mirror sages are able to travel to Hyrule and tutor Zelda, as well as share stories with Auru. I may have seemed a bit idiotic when I said to ignore that scene completely, but the fact remains that we've already seen differences between the two sets of sages, not to mention the whole "all looking exactly the same" thing.

[MikePetersSucks]

Maybe they couldn't leave the Sacred Realm at that specific instance because they had to be there to set up the seal. I always took the mountaintop scene as evidence that they could return to their normal lives afterwards. (After all, they had to have descendants SOMEhow.)

[FDL]

Well most of them either had family or couldn;t have descendants anyway. But still, we don;t know that they had descendants. Ganon breaking out of the SR in TWW's backstory imples they might, but we can't be sure. But I can't really argue against two separate ideas like this.

[Duke Serkol]

Yeah, ever since we had a Kokiri Sage, and especially since Fado and Makar the Korok rolled in I've occasionally wondered how their blood(sap)line works.

[Vertiboy]

Well most of them either had family or couldn;t have descendants anyway. But still, we don;t know that they had descendants. Ganon breaking out of the SR in TWW's backstory imples they might, but we can't be sure. But I can't really argue against two separate ideas like this.

We know for a fact that they have descendants, at least did at one point in time. Back early in Zelda history (late '90s), when there was little arguement against OoT = IW, the maidens had to be the descendants of the OoT Sages. We do know for sure. Why are we even debating about this? When we debate about basic facts like this, why even bother to consider anything a fact? There is a certain point where common sense must come in. This is one of those points. The following statement is a fact: At one point in time, if not now, the maidens in ALttP were the descendants of the Sages from OoT. Debate over. If creator's intent of OoT = IW (at least back in the late '90s) is true, then we are simply wasting time.

Also, here is something to consider. If the Sages couldn't leave the Chamber of the Sages, located in the heart of the Sacred Realm according to Rauru, does that mean that they sealed themselves inside the Realm when they sealed Ganon in there? Does that make sense? If they seal themselves in the Realm, then how do they appear on Death Mountain at the end of the game? How, after the game is over, can they perform whatever actions (Huh? Huh? You know... Hahahah!!!!) that would result in having descendants one day if they cannot leave the Realm that they have sealed themselves in?

[MikePetersSucks]

Vertiboy, do you always have to be an ass over everything? Fierce might've been arguing that it was a spiritual ancestry.

[Duke Serkol]

If the Sages couldn't leave the Chamber of the Sages, located in the heart of the Sacred Realm according to Rauru, does that mean that they sealed themselves inside the Realm when they sealed Ganon in there? Does that make sense?

Uhm... hadn't thought of that. Applied to Rauru I mean. The reinforces my belief that Rauru was a spirit like the King in TWW and that after OoT he finally moved over to the afterlife (since we don't see him with the other Sages onDeath Mountain and I can't picture him having tea with Ganon).

...or he may be flying around Hyrule as a owl.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 29 May 2007 - 05:15 PM.

[LionHarted]

Questions I have for the community:

1) Is the group of sages in the execution scene the same group of sages that appeared in OoT?
2) If not, why were they absent in OoT when they were so instrumental in the pre-TP story? (or is Nintendo's story broken)

Edited by LionHarted, 29 May 2007 - 08:38 PM.

[Vertiboy]

Vertiboy, do you always have to be an ass over everything? Fierce might've been arguing that it was a spiritual ancestry.

When I hear someone talking about ancestry, I assume that they are talking about blood relation. The same applies to 99.9% of this forum's members. That is usually the default assumption that nearly everyone makes. I see no reason why this doesn't apply to the OoT/ALttP connection. If it is a spiritual ancestry, then the writers and translators would have made that clear. They would know that most people would think they meant blood descendants, so they would take special care to get the correct meaning, spiritual descendants, across.

Then again, who knows what NoA messed up when translating ALttP. Perhaps the original Japanese version did make that distinction, and NoA was too lazy to correctly convey that message.

Either way, that is not very relevant to the debate at hand. The Sages from OoT can return to Hyrule. As a matter of fact, unless they are stupid to seal themselves in the Realm with Ganon, they did return to Hyrule. If we are still debating about this after we see them in Ganon's Castle and on the top of Death Mountain, and if we have people suggesting "OMFG IMAGE PROJECTION!!!!!!" then we have a serious problem.

Questions I have for the community:

1) Is the group of sages in the execution scene the same group of sages that appeared in OoT?
2) If not, why were they absent in OoT when they were so instrumental in the pre-TP story? (or is Nintendo's story broken)

I never really thought about that. We all know that the TP Sages probably weren't even thought of back when OoT was released, so maybe it was a retcon or something.

We can make up some fan fiction, though, to help a little. How about this: by the time Link drew the MS for the first time, it was too late for the TP Sages to help stop Ganondorf because he already had the ToP. In the 7 years Link was absent, those Sages were killed, probably by Ganondorf. Zelda sends Link back before he even met her, he tells her all about his adventure, etc., etc. Again, fan fictitious, but it works.

Edited by Vertiboy, 30 May 2007 - 12:53 AM.