320 replies to this topic

[Chaltab]

It occurs to me (and this has nothing to do with the current course of the discussion) that in Split Timeline, The Oracle Games probably take place in the Child Timeline because of Koume and Kotake* being alive.

Did anyone else read their names as 'Ko-Yoom and Ko-Tayk' when they first played through the game?

[Vertiboy]

It occurs to me (and this has nothing to do with the current course of the discussion) that in Split Timeline, The Oracle Games probably take place in the Child Timeline because of Koume and Kotake* being alive.

Did anyone else read their names as 'Ko-Yoom and Ko-Tayk' when they first played through the game?

I wonder if Capcom thought that far into it. I mean, I wonder if the split timeline existed back in 2001, and Capcom deliberately made the Oracles with the intent of placing them in the child timeline...

...or it just didn't exist back then, and Capcom just placed the Twinvora sisters into the game without really caring that they died in OoT. If it is post-MM, then I think there is a large possibility that the split timeline already existed. (As I have said before, I believe that ALttP was originally intended to happen in the adult timeline, and the child timeline existed soley for Link to "regain his lost time," with Nintendo originally intending for no games to follow. That's just me, though.)

[SOAP]

Actually, I thought almost the exact opposite. I thought child timeline was introduced to start a new storyline of games without having to be bogged down by the old timeline. Usually when you introduce a timeline split in a thread of stories, you continue off in the new split or close it off and go back to the old. Jumping back and forth just confuses things unnecessarily. There was no doubt in my mind that Oracles took place in the child timeline I thought surely future games would come along in the same timeline. But then TWW came out and ruined taht by being the adult timeline and severing OoT's connection with ALttP. ALttP got shuffled to the child timeline but then TP came along fraked things up to. So now ALttP and the rest of the pre-OoT games are pretty much up in the air. And make matters worse, people are STILL arguing about the placement of the FS games. I really wish the timeline would have been something more like this:

Adult:

OoT --- ALttP - LA --- LOZ - AOL

Child:

OoT - MM --- TP --- OoX --- TMC --- FS - FSA --- TWW - PH

Don't really care of the order of the child timeline past TP. My point is it would have made sense if the adult timeline was reserved for everything pre-OoT and use the child timeline as a fresh start. Instead we have the big mess we have today. Oh well.

Edited by SOAP, 02 June 2007 - 04:47 AM.

[FDL]

I'd like to mention a few things. First of all, you seem to be forgetting what I've already given plenty of examples of, which is that the Triforce pieces do not instantly grant their wielder that much power. Even if you believe Zelda was speaking about obtaining the whole Triforce in that one quote(though I don't understand why you would considering it makes less sense), in pretty much every game since OoT we've seen someone with a Triforce piece who isn't given any new powers just by obtaining it. If you believe that the GT and DT scenes with the sages should be taken at face value then you cannot say that Link gaining no new powers in TWW was just a "gameplay mechanic". TP Link as well, who had the ToC possibly since he was born, is not given any new powers until he's put in danger. Do you honestly believe that there is no correlation between the scene where Link becomes a wolf and the scene in the AG? I mean, Link didn't have the ToC shine on his hand until he was in danger as well, but does that mean the gods gave it to him then? Not likely.

The ToP gave Ganondorf immediate access to its power when he took it in OoT, and he ruled Hyrule for the next seven years. Neither Ganondorf nor Link had immediate access to its power when they possessed the pieces in TP, so this rises the question as to whether Ganondorf obtained his piece in the same manner as before. After all, it's interesting how both Ganondorf's and Link's pieces activated at the moment when they were due to fulfill important plot sequences (take over Twilight Realm / meet Midna).

No, Ganondorf is never said to have been given immediate access to it's power in OoT. You and others like VB have inferred that with absolutely no proof. It only says that with it's power he was able to become "King of Evil/Demon King", but it doesn't say how. HE could have taken time to learn how to use it, he may have been put in danger, etc. There is no reason to believe he was instantly given any new power, or at least very much new power.

As for what you say about Link, are you ACTUALLY implying that Link didn't get the ToC until then? Come ON. The things that happen to Ganondorf and Link are not so(read: not at all) different than the ending of OoT, in which Ganondorf "uses the last of his power" to bury himself amongst the rubble and then suddenly returns with more power. You've yet to really address this, I think, none of you have. The parallels with this scene and the scenes of OoT are fucking obvious, and I think your writing it off makes it painfully obvious that you're disregarding it because you WANT to believe Ganondorf got the ToP at that point. Oh yeah, and Midna finding Link and Ganondorf taking over the TR are not what the Triforces are activating about, they're activating because the two are in danger. I still can't believe you're seriously implying that Link got the ToC only then.

As for whether my interpretation of Zelda's line "makes less sense", I challenge you on that assumption. If someone has died and you refer to them as a character, you are not merely going to account for their actions in the last ten seconds. Zelda's words reflect upon Ganondorf's evil nature and that he could not control the Triforce because his evil heart led to the split. In fact, what I find inconsistent is that you believe Ganon apparently "gained control of the ToP" by losing control of himself and becoming the demon pig. By letting the rage control him, Ganon had lost control of himself.

But why would she pity him for it? It seems more likely that she'd pity the fact that the cockiness he had obtained from the ToP caused his death. There's really nothing to pity about that other thing. And can you explain why Ganondorf turns into a pig AFTER he's said to have lost all of his power if he was just joking? Why wouldn;t he just use the ToP right there? Oh yeah, and the becoming a pig really isn't all that inconsistent with anything as there are many reasons why it could have happened. Well, I'd also like to mention that what you're saying about inconsistencies has no backing in the game but that's not the point. First of all, Ganondorf was in danger. In TP the ToC orignally activates for Link when he's in danger of becoming a spirit, so it's really not different at all. Also, if you want it to have something to do with having a "calm mind", in many believes it is said that you are awakened spiritually as you die, and you become calm. But that doesn't really even matter, because Link demonstrates unmistakeably that you can temporarily gain control of a Triforce piece when you're in danger.

No, he never says who subdues him. The fact that the sages tell how he was subdued makes me think they were involved somehow. "Brought to justice" doesn't literally mean that someone brought him to the sages you know. As for the idea that he was subdued because he was weak, you're wrong, plain and simple. The game itself says that it was the opposite. He was sooo strong that he was cocky, and this arrogance caused him to be "blind to any danger". Notice they say "blind to any danger" and not "he was weaker than us". You all say that you believe he was revealed as a threat because he got impatient, but that doesn't really add up at all.

1) "Exposed, subdued and brought to justice" is a common-sense remark to refer to the capture of an enemy. It doesn't infer at all that the Sages had anything to do with the capture.

It doesn't mean they weren't either. Nothing says they did or didn't, so you have to infer something either way.

2) The game never says/implies that Ganondorf was cocky in his attack. He was blinded by his greed, his lust for the power that was in the Sacred Realm. The lust grew so strong that he launched a desperate invasion of Hyrule and was captured.

Yes, yes it does. "But he was blind... In all his fury and might he was blind to any danger and thus was exposed, subdued, and brought to justice." Fury and might, particularly might, imply he was arrogant. That "lust for power" remark doesn't have anything to do with his invasion of Hyrule.

But that was really all they could do. If they hadn't tried to kill him, and thus "end his evil magic", they would never have had to put the Twili in danger.

But the impalement with the blade of light was only part of the execution. Auru, who got his information from the Sages (as he says in Telma's bar), tells us that the Twilight Mirror was used to send prisoners condemned to death directly to the underworld. Sealing Ganondorf away was not a last resort but an attempt to finish the execution process that they had begun with the impalement, and they failed which led to the Twili under threat.

I'm not trying to disprove your interpretation of events, but your argument that the quote makes no sense if Ganondorf received the ToP at that moment.

Eh, I didn't see that as literal, particularly because Midna never mentions that ever happening and we see many undead people in the prison, but even if that were true they still weren't really overestimating their powers then. If they had tossed Ganondorf in and then the ToP activated that'd be one thing, but it's clear in this game that they never believed they were destroying Ganondorf at that point. They were just trying to prevent the threat at the immediate moment, but every way that scene is done portrays it as a last resort. Their tossing Ganondorf in there really has nothing to do with the legend of the AG. I still say that interpretation makes little sense.

[Raien]

As for what you say about Link, are you ACTUALLY implying that Link didn't get the ToC until then? Come ON. The things that happen to Ganondorf and Link are not so(read: not at all) different than the ending of OoT, in which Ganondorf "uses the last of his power" to bury himself amongst the rubble and then suddenly returns with more power. You've yet to really address this, I think, none of you have. The parallels with this scene and the scenes of OoT are fucking obvious, and I think your writing it off makes it painfully obvious that you're disregarding it because you WANT to believe Ganondorf got the ToP at that point. Oh yeah, and Midna finding Link and Ganondorf taking over the TR are not what the Triforces are activating about, they're activating because the two are in danger. I still can't believe you're seriously implying that Link got the ToC only then.

There is a difference between "Ganondorf getting the ToP" and "Ganondorf getting access to the magic of the ToP". I have never argued (in this discussion) that Ganondorf got the ToP at the moment he was executed; just that he got access to its magic during the execution. Link had the ToC all his life but he never came into contact with that magic until he was transformed in the Twilight Realm; I apply the same logic to Ganondorf.

But why would she pity him for it? It seems more likely that she'd pity the fact that the cockiness he had obtained from the ToP caused his death. There's really nothing to pity about that other thing.

Ganondorf is a man to be pitied because of his nature; he could not be content without power. Zelda's speech was always about Ganondorf's nature; not specifically about his control over the Triforce.

And can you explain why Ganondorf turns into a pig AFTER he's said to have lost all of his power if he was just joking? Why wouldn;t he just use the ToP right there? Oh yeah, and the becoming a pig really isn't all that inconsistent with anything as there are many reasons why it could have happened. Well, I'd also like to mention that what you're saying about inconsistencies has no backing in the game but that's not the point. First of all, Ganondorf was in danger. In TP the ToC orignally activates for Link when he's in danger of becoming a spirit, so it's really not different at all. Also, if you want it to have something to do with having a "calm mind", in many believes it is said that you are awakened spiritually as you die, and you become calm. But that doesn't really even matter, because Link demonstrates unmistakeably that you can temporarily gain control of a Triforce piece when you're in danger.

I see your argument, but I don't believe the pattern is related to what you're suggesting. I still believe that the interaction between the Triforce piece and the holder is indirect; that its power cannot simply be directed in any direction that the holder wants. As a reflection of the holders' natures, the Triforce pieces give power to reflect those natures, so if Ganondorf felt a surge of malice, that it would be reflected as Darkness by the Triforce of Power. That is how I see Ganondorf finding new power in OoT, because the ToP reflects his rage after suffering defeat at Link's hands.

Yes, yes it does. "But he was blind... In all his fury and might he was blind to any danger and thus was exposed, subdued, and brought to justice." Fury and might, particularly might, imply he was arrogant. That "lust for power" remark doesn't have anything to do with his invasion of Hyrule.

I will admit I was wrong to say he was weak, but the quote doesn't define the nature of his strength either. You can have a strong army but get defeated because you don't apply strategy; the situation is basically power without wisdom (a symbol of imbalance, perhaps? ). Given that we are referred to a full-scale invasion with the Sacred Realm as the primary objective, I have always had the impression that Ganondorf's invasion was performed with an army.

Eh, I didn't see that as literal, particularly because Midna never mentions that ever happening and we see many undead people in the prison, but even if that were true they still weren't really overestimating their powers then. If they had tossed Ganondorf in and then the ToP activated that'd be one thing, but it's clear in this game that they never believed they were destroying Ganondorf at that point. They were just trying to prevent the threat at the immediate moment, but every way that scene is done portrays it as a last resort. Their tossing Ganondorf in there really has nothing to do with the legend of the AG. I still say that interpretation makes little sense.

If the Sages completed the first part of the execution before Ganondorf got his power, the solution to the immediate threat would be to try and complete the execution so that Ganondorf and his recovered evil magic could be destroyed. But they overestimated their abilities when they thought the execution would be successful, and this put the Twili in danger.

Edited by jhurvid, 02 June 2007 - 12:30 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

On the "Makai" point, that isn't Hell, and in Japanese mythology it's totally unrelated to any aspect of human life. It's where demons live, just like Earth is where humans live, and depending on your interpretation, it might be physically applicable via caves.

As for what you say about Link, are you ACTUALLY implying that Link didn't get the ToC until then? Come ON. The things that happen to Ganondorf and Link are not so(read: not at all) different than the ending of OoT, in which Ganondorf "uses the last of his power" to bury himself amongst the rubble and then suddenly returns with more power. You've yet to really address this, I think, none of you have. The parallels with this scene and the scenes of OoT are fucking obvious, and I think your writing it off makes it painfully obvious that you're disregarding it because you WANT to believe Ganondorf got the ToP at that point. Oh yeah, and Midna finding Link and Ganondorf taking over the TR are not what the Triforces are activating about, they're activating because the two are in danger. I still can't believe you're seriously implying that Link got the ToC only then.

Agreed. Another thing they've forgotten to address is that Link has the Triforce of Courage mark on his hand at the VERY beginning of the game before you even get the slingshot.

[Kamina]

About the Hell:
I just remeberd somethig Ganondorf said after Link defeted Phantom Ganon.
Ganondorf talkin to Phantom Ganon : "Because you disappointed your master...i'll banish you into hell."
...or something like that.
Note: I played the german version of OoT, so maybe in english it doesn't sound like that.

[Arturo]

That's just in the German version, which uses "Hades", the Greek name for hell. But in teh English version it says "gap between dimensions". It seems very likely the English version is more correct there, because the German OoT translation is horrible (It calls the Hero of Time, Lord of Time and the Temple of Time is the Citadel of Time ).

But again, you can never be sure, since we haven't got any OoT Japanese literal translations...

[FDL]

As for what you say about Link, are you ACTUALLY implying that Link didn't get the ToC until then? Come ON. The things that happen to Ganondorf and Link are not so(read: not at all) different than the ending of OoT, in which Ganondorf "uses the last of his power" to bury himself amongst the rubble and then suddenly returns with more power. You've yet to really address this, I think, none of you have. The parallels with this scene and the scenes of OoT are fucking obvious, and I think your writing it off makes it painfully obvious that you're disregarding it because you WANT to believe Ganondorf got the ToP at that point. Oh yeah, and Midna finding Link and Ganondorf taking over the TR are not what the Triforces are activating about, they're activating because the two are in danger. I still can't believe you're seriously implying that Link got the ToC only then.

There is a difference between "Ganondorf getting the ToP" and "Ganondorf getting access to the magic of the ToP". I have never argued (in this discussion) that Ganondorf got the ToP at the moment he was executed; just that he got access to its magic during the execution. Link had the ToC all his life but he never came into contact with that magic until he was transformed in the Twilight Realm; I apply the same logic to Ganondorf.

The way you've been arguing leads me to believe otherwise. Haven't you been arguing that Ganondorf got the ToP right at that point?

But why would she pity him for it? It seems more likely that she'd pity the fact that the cockiness he had obtained from the ToP caused his death. There's really nothing to pity about that other thing.

Ganondorf is a man to be pitied because of his nature; he could not be content without power. Zelda's speech was always about Ganondorf's nature; not specifically about his control over the Triforce.

It's possible, I'll give you that. But I don't think my opinion has been proven incorrect either.

And can you explain why Ganondorf turns into a pig AFTER he's said to have lost all of his power if he was just joking? Why wouldn;t he just use the ToP right there? Oh yeah, and the becoming a pig really isn't all that inconsistent with anything as there are many reasons why it could have happened. Well, I'd also like to mention that what you're saying about inconsistencies has no backing in the game but that's not the point. First of all, Ganondorf was in danger. In TP the ToC orignally activates for Link when he's in danger of becoming a spirit, so it's really not different at all. Also, if you want it to have something to do with having a "calm mind", in many believes it is said that you are awakened spiritually as you die, and you become calm. But that doesn't really even matter, because Link demonstrates unmistakeably that you can temporarily gain control of a Triforce piece when you're in danger.

I see your argument, but I don't believe the pattern is related to what you're suggesting. I still believe that the interaction between the Triforce piece and the holder is indirect; that its power cannot simply be directed in any direction that the holder wants. As a reflection of the holders' natures, the Triforce pieces give power to reflect those natures, so if Ganondorf felt a surge of malice, that it would be reflected as Darkness by the Triforce of Power. That is how I see Ganondorf finding new power in OoT, because the ToP reflects his rage after suffering defeat at Link's hands.

But why did the ToC turn Link into a wolf, what was it reflecting then? You have to admit that the scene where Link becomes a wolf is similar to those other two scenes.

Yes, yes it does. "But he was blind... In all his fury and might he was blind to any danger and thus was exposed, subdued, and brought to justice." Fury and might, particularly might, imply he was arrogant. That "lust for power" remark doesn't have anything to do with his invasion of Hyrule.

I will admit I was wrong to say he was weak, but the quote doesn't define the nature of his strength either. You can have a strong army but get defeated because you don't apply strategy; the situation is basically power without wisdom (a symbol of imbalance, perhaps? ). Given that we are referred to a full-scale invasion with the Sacred Realm as the primary objective, I have always had the impression that Ganondorf's invasion was performed with an army.

It's possible, but if we're talking about when he lead an army it'd have to be after Link pulled the MS from the pedestal. I mean, when he first is in Hyrule he doesn't have an army so he must get one either when he goes after Zelda or after he gets the ToP.

Eh, I didn't see that as literal, particularly because Midna never mentions that ever happening and we see many undead people in the prison, but even if that were true they still weren't really overestimating their powers then. If they had tossed Ganondorf in and then the ToP activated that'd be one thing, but it's clear in this game that they never believed they were destroying Ganondorf at that point. They were just trying to prevent the threat at the immediate moment, but every way that scene is done portrays it as a last resort. Their tossing Ganondorf in there really has nothing to do with the legend of the AG. I still say that interpretation makes little sense.

If the Sages completed the first part of the execution before Ganondorf got his power, the solution to the immediate threat would be to try and complete the execution so that Ganondorf and his recovered evil magic could be destroyed. But they overestimated their abilities when they thought the execution would be successful, and this put the Twili in danger.

But they knew the Twilight Realm wouldn't kill him. They were only making sure he didn't attack Hyrule again(right away).

[Kamina]

Ah Hades, now I remember.
But one thing you said is wrong: they don't call Link Lord of Time in the german version. Shik just said that Link is the Ruler over the Time because he possesses the Master Sword and the Ocarina o.T., wich are the keys of Time.
Edit: Others call Link Hero of Time.

Edited by Kyuubi no Youko, 03 June 2007 - 08:26 AM.

[Arturo]

I wasn't sure of that one, because my memory is not good, and I didn't want to check it... But Lord and Ruler are similar enough.

[Kamina]

I wasn't sure of that one, because my memory is not good, and I didn't want to check it... But Lord and Ruler are similar enough.

Read my last post again. I had to change something.

*wonders* Do you speak german?

[LionHarted]

That's just in the German version, which uses "Hades", the Greek name for hell. But in teh English version it says "gap between dimensions". It seems very likely the English version is more correct there, because the German OoT translation is horrible (It calls the Hero of Time, Lord of Time and the Temple of Time is the Citadel of Time ).

That's called creative license in names, and it doesn't detract at all from the quality of the translation.

"Lord" is a common synonym for "Hero" in some mythological and fantasy universes, and a Citadel is a type of temple. Of course, the former seems to be a misinterpretation on your part.

Edited by LionHarted, 03 June 2007 - 09:04 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

Creative license sucks.

[LionHarted]

Creative license sucks.

The script of FFXII would be awfully bland had the translators not made great pains to spruce it up a bit.

[Raien]

The way you've been arguing leads me to believe otherwise. Haven't you been arguing that Ganondorf got the ToP right at that point?

I may have done at some point. My official stance is that Ganondorf could have been given the ToP at any time between the splitting of the timeline and the execution scene. I still believe that the goddesses gave it to him.

It's possible, I'll give you that. But I don't think my opinion has been proven incorrect either.

I wasn't trying to disprove your opinion. You said that my perspective makes "less sense" and I am just establishing why I think it makes just as much sense as your argument.

But why did the ToC turn Link into a wolf, what was it reflecting then? You have to admit that the scene where Link becomes a wolf is similar to those other two scenes.

Link's ancestor, the Hero's spirit, also takes the form of a wolf. It is a form that, in my opinion, reflects the courage passed down in the bloodline.

It's possible, but if we're talking about when he lead an army it'd have to be after Link pulled the MS from the pedestal. I mean, when he first is in Hyrule he doesn't have an army so he must get one either when he goes after Zelda or after he gets the ToP.

I agree. I believe that Ganondorf's invasion in TP's back story took place because he failed to secure the Sacred Realm after his original sneak attack.

But they knew the Twilight Realm wouldn't kill him. They were only making sure he didn't attack Hyrule again(right away).

The sealing might have a different result on the prisoner if it is performed as part of the execution. There is quite a lot of ambiguity to the nature of the process.

One idea (although strictly labeled "theory" for now) is that the "underworld" that the Sages refer to is actually the Makai, and the execution process sends prisoners to the Makai where they are presumably tortured by the demons inside.

Edited by jhurvid, 03 June 2007 - 09:23 AM.

[Arturo]

*wonders* Do you speak german?

I am fluent at German, so yes. But my level is not too high. My mother language is Spanish.

That's called creative license in names, and it doesn't detract at all from the quality of the translation.

"Lord" is a common synonym for "Hero" in some mythological and fantasy universes, and a Citadel is a type of temple. Of course, the former seems to be a misinterpretation on your part.

Last I checked, a "Zitadelle" has nothing to do with a "Tempel", because it means something similar to fortress. Jumbie or KnY can confirm it, though.

[Duke Serkol]

Creative license sucks.

The script of FFXII would be awfully bland had the translators not made great pains to spruce it up a bit.

What can I say, changes like that just make my stomach churn. I want to know the very original tale. That's why I love fan retranslations (especially that of ALttP's manual).

Edited by Duke Serkol, 03 June 2007 - 08:35 PM.

[LionHarted]

I want to know the very original tale.

Original script:

The death of Lord Rasler was just one of the tragedies that befell
Dalmasca. Princess Ashe lost all the hope that had come with her
marriage. It was a time of turbulence.

With the Archadian Empire to the east competing with the western
Empire of Rozarria over the supremacy of Ivalice, it was also
a time of war.

As its first step towards its domination of the west, Archadia
invaded the Kingdom of Nabradia.

Lord Rasler's motherland fell to the fires of war. Dalmasca later
met the same fate.

With its defeat at Nalbina Fortress, Dalmasca lost the bulk of
its military power.


Localized script:

The Death of Ld Rasler Heios Nabradia was but one of many Tragedies to befall
the Kingdom of Dalmasca.

The Air of Hope that had surrounded H.R.H. Princess Ashe?s Wedding was now
quite lost: Dalmasca had been set adrift at the Mercy of History?s restless
Tides.

At this Time, two Great Empires struggled for Dominion over Ivalice: Archadia
in the East, Rozarria the West.

The Invasion of the Kingdom of Nabradia was Archadia?s first Step in its
westward March.

With Lord Rasler?s beloved Homeland consumed by the Hell-Fires of War, it
seemed clear that Archadia would soon mete out a like Fate to Dalmasca.

The Fall of the Fortress at Nalbina tolled the Destruction of the greater part
of Dalmasca?s Forces.

A Counter-Attack was mounted by the Order of the Knights of Dalmasca, ever
Brave and Faithful, but against the martial Might of the Archadian Armies, they
stood little Chance of Victory.

Indeed, their defeat was to be absolute.

[Fyxe]

I should note that it isn't creative licence, really. What sounds good in Japanese might sound terrible when translated directly. It's quite clear that the remade script for FFXII, in this instance, is much better.

It's not taking liberties, it's merely wording it nicely. The original translations for FFIV and VI on the other hand are different matters entirely.

One of the reasons I loath most fan translations is that they have no idea how to word things correctly so it actually sounds nice.

[Kamina]

I am fluent at German, so yes. But my level is not too high. My mother language is Spanish.

Cool, dann kann ich endlich wieder Deutsch sprechen.

Last I checked, a "Zitadelle" has nothing to do with a "Tempel", because it means something similar to fortress. Jumbie or KnY can confirm it, though.

I can agree with that. In the German-Dictionary is written: Zitadelle (frensh), a Fortress inside city-walls.
But the Zitadelle der Zeit/Temple of Time looks more like a church than a fortress.

Edited by Kyuubi no Youko, 09 June 2007 - 04:18 AM.