320 replies to this topic

[Duke Serkol]

Questions I have for the community:

1) Is the group of sages in the execution scene the same group of sages that appeared in OoT?
2) If not, why were they absent in OoT when they were so instrumental in the pre-TP story? (or is Nintendo's story broken)

I never really thought about that. We all know that the TP Sages probably weren't even thought of back when OoT was released, so maybe it was a retcon or something.

We can make up some fan fiction, though, to help a little. How about this: by the time Link drew the MS for the first time, it was too late for the TP Sages to help stop Ganondorf because he already had the ToP. In the 7 years Link was absent, those Sages were killed, probably by Ganondorf. Zelda sends Link back before he even met her, he tells her all about his adventure, etc., etc. Again, fan fictitious, but it works.

Ah, you beat me to it Vertiboy. I was going to say just the same things (minus the "never thought about it part")
There is however something I may add: if these Sages were really around during OoT (getting killed off while Link slept), then that means that at this point in time there were two Sages of Light, the one of TP and Rauru. However, in TWW we've seen spirit Sages work with new generation flesh and blood Sages, so maybe at the time of OoT the TP Sages were still flesh and blood Hylians and only later (in the child timeline, after the point in which Ganon would have killed them in the adult one) transcended to become the spiritual entities seen in TP?

[Raien]

My argument is that the OoT Sages are tied to the elemental Temples that connect to the Sacred Realm, whereas the TP Sages are tied to the Arbiter's Grounds. For Ganondorf to be sealed in the Sacred Realm (the only course of action to defeat Ganondorf in OoT), the OoT Sages need to perform their role in the sealing.

Of course, having two groups of Sages creates two Sage bloodlines, which explains the race inconsistencies.

[Arturo]

But the TP Sages have the same elemental symbols as the OoT ones. They must be of the same group.

[LionHarted]

We can make up some fan fiction, though, to help a little. How about this: by the time Link drew the MS for the first time, it was too late for the TP Sages to help stop Ganondorf because he already had the ToP. In the 7 years Link was absent, those Sages were killed, probably by Ganondorf. Zelda sends Link back before he even met her, he tells her all about his adventure, etc., etc. Again, fan fictitious, but it works.

I agree that, if the sages are different, they were unable to stop him in OoT because it was too late for them to act, and Ganondorf was already too powerful. I disagree that we can say it was because he "already had the ToP", because he is depicted as having the ToP in TP anyway.

Reconciling your idea with the idea that he gets the ToP anyway, we could just as easily say that they could get the jump on him this time (they say he was "blind to any danger", and cite that as his folly), with help from Link's council.

[Raien]

But the TP Sages have the same elemental symbols as the OoT ones. They must be of the same group.

They are represented by the same symbols but that doesn't mean that they are connected to the Temples. If they were, we would not be seeing an awakening call from the Sacred Realm at the time that Ganondorf's evil took control.

[LionHarted]

They are represented by the same symbols but that doesn't mean that they are connected to the Temples. If they were, we would not be seeing an awakening call from the Sacred Realm at the time that Ganondorf's evil took control.

The entire point of the Child Timeline, in retrospect, is that Ganondorf was able to be stopped before his evil took control. Whether this means calling the sages sooner, or him not getting the Triforce of Power, is up to player interpretation. It has no bearing on the identity of the TP sages.

[FDL]

Well most of them either had family or couldn;t have descendants anyway. But still, we don;t know that they had descendants. Ganon breaking out of the SR in TWW's backstory imples they might, but we can't be sure. But I can't really argue against two separate ideas like this.

We know for a fact that they have descendants, at least did at one point in time. Back early in Zelda history (late '90s), when there was little arguement against OoT = IW, the maidens had to be the descendants of the OoT Sages. We do know for sure. Why are we even debating about this? When we debate about basic facts like this, why even bother to consider anything a fact? There is a certain point where common sense must come in. This is one of those points. The following statement is a fact: At one point in time, if not now, the maidens in ALttP were the descendants of the Sages from OoT. Debate over. If creator's intent of OoT = IW (at least back in the late '90s) is true, then we are simply wasting time.

And yet even when OoT was first released we were already given reasons to believe that you are incorrect. First of all, the more obvious one. The OoT Sages are of different races, some of which cannot have children. Saria will always stay a child, and the Kokiri are all descended from the GDT. They are not related to specific other Kokiri, and they are all given life by the GDT. This is a fact. Already this puts a bit of a clamp on the idea of the Sages having descendants in OoT, and this had been argued about for YEARS as far as I know. Not everyone believed OoT worked as ALttP's direct prequel.

My final main point is from what I mentioned before, the fact that Ruto and Impa both allude to the fact that they can't leave. Ruto gives up on marrying Link when she obviously didn't need to if she was permitted to leave and procreate soon after she was awakened. Also, Impa says she can't protect Zelda anymore when she still could if what you believe is true. You've yet to really argue against any of these things so I figure I'll mention it again, as my point still stands.

Also, here is something to consider. If the Sages couldn't leave the Chamber of the Sages, located in the heart of the Sacred Realm according to Rauru, does that mean that they sealed themselves inside the Realm when they sealed Ganon in there? Does that make sense? If they seal themselves in the Realm, then how do they appear on Death Mountain at the end of the game? How, after the game is over, can they perform whatever actions (Huh? Huh? You know... Hahahah!!!!) that would result in having descendants one day if they cannot leave the Realm that they have sealed themselves in?

Doesn't really prove anything. Also, I agree with MPS, you're acting like a real ass. I'm not going to take you seriously anymore if you keep it up.

Vertiboy, do you always have to be an ass over everything? Fierce might've been arguing that it was a spiritual ancestry.

When I hear someone talking about ancestry, I assume that they are talking about blood relation. The same applies to 99.9% of this forum's members. That is usually the default assumption that nearly everyone makes. I see no reason why this doesn't apply to the OoT/ALttP connection. If it is a spiritual ancestry, then the writers and translators would have made that clear. They would know that most people would think they meant blood descendants, so they would take special care to get the correct meaning, spiritual descendants, across.

Then again, who knows what NoA messed up when translating ALttP. Perhaps the original Japanese version did make that distinction, and NoA was too lazy to correctly convey that message.

Either way, that is not very relevant to the debate at hand. The Sages from OoT can return to Hyrule. As a matter of fact, unless they are stupid to seal themselves in the Realm with Ganon, they did return to Hyrule. If we are still debating about this after we see them in Ganon's Castle and on the top of Death Mountain, and if we have people suggesting "OMFG IMAGE PROJECTION!!!!!!" then we have a serious problem.

See above. I don't see how you can use ALttP as a point when even when OoT was first released we were already given things that make it less possible than you think. I don't see the progression from Goron, Zora, and child who can't have kids to three humans but maybe you can. I doubt it. And I'll reiterate what I also said, stop being a condescending ass or I'll lose any respect for you as a "debater" that I may have.

Oh yeah, as for your "IMAGE PROJECTION!!!" remark, I have to ask why it's so weird an idea. Perhaps because you don't want to believe it's possible? The fact that we see them as floating balls of energy and we then see them "fade"(for lack of a better term) into existence makes me think it's unlikely they're regular old people. But maybe you know people who can appear randomly like that.

Questions I have for the community:

1) Is the group of sages in the execution scene the same group of sages that appeared in OoT?
2) If not, why were they absent in OoT when they were so instrumental in the pre-TP story? (or is Nintendo's story broken)

Honestly, I'm thinking they may not be the same. There are too many differences, and I've yet to see any explanation as to why they don't look like OoT's sages(i.e. they all look the same when OoT's sages seemingly keep their appearances).

We can make up some fan fiction, though, to help a little. How about this: by the time Link drew the MS for the first time, it was too late for the TP Sages to help stop Ganondorf because he already had the ToP. In the 7 years Link was absent, those Sages were killed, probably by Ganondorf. Zelda sends Link back before he even met her, he tells her all about his adventure, etc., etc. Again, fan fictitious, but it works.

So you're going to keep on thinking Ganondorf immediately gets all of the ToP's power when I've proven you wrong? Figures. Ganondorf obtaining the ToP wouldn't be a big deal if they stopped him early enough. Notice Ganondorf never attacks Hyrule Castle while you're in the past, even after you get the ToC? Perhaps he didn't do as quickly as you assume, and Link and Zelda had enough time to help the sages get him.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 30 May 2007 - 02:51 PM.

[LionHarted]

There are too many differences, and I've yet to see any explanation as to why they don't look like OoT's sages(i.e. they all look the same when OoT's sages seemingly keep their appearances).

Improved continuity with sage group in ALttP if all sages take similar humanoid forms. Both sages and maidens have been shown to take multiple forms. Sages took on the forms of balls of light and their normal forms; maidens turned into fairies.

[FDL]

There are still other differences that I've mentioned in previous posts.

[LionHarted]

There are still other differences that I've mentioned in previous posts.

"Differences" being things that don't line up perfectly with the OoT sages, right?

I'm guessing they are, not limited to, but including:

1) Serving the royal family;
2) Being tutors to princess Zelda;
3) Protecting the Mirror of Twilight

but none of these are necessarily not true of the OoT sages.

[Vertiboy]

I really don't see much wrong with having two Light Sages at the same time, one being Rauru and the other being one of the ghostly old men from TP. It's not like the Zelda canon forbids that. It is weird, but it isn't contradicted.

[Raien]

Wouldn't the TP Sages know the destiny of the Hero of Time and the OoT Sages, given that they are supposed to be the wisest men in Hyrule? Why would they fight Ganondorf when they know they don't have the strength to defeat him with the Triforce of Power?

It seems clear to me that the OoT Sages were relied upon because they were the only ones who could seal Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm, as destiny foretold. The TP Sages captured Ganondorf after destiny had been fulfilled, when he no longer possessed the Triforce of Power.

Edited by jhurvid, 30 May 2007 - 06:22 PM.

[LionHarted]

Wouldn't the TP Sages know the destiny of the Hero of Time and the OoT Sages, given that they are supposed to be the wisest men in Hyrule? Why would they fight Ganondorf when they know they don't have the strength to defeat him with the Triforce of Power?

"We underestimated our abilities as sages and attempted to put an end to his evil magic."

Is this quote just meaningless, or something?

[Raien]

"We underestimated our abilities as sages and attempted to put an end to his evil magic."

Is this quote just meaningless, or something?

It doesn't refer to the Sages directly taking on the Triforce of Power. There are two possibilities that I am aware of:

1) The Sages attempted to put an end to Ganondorf's evil magic with the execution; before the magic of the ToP was activated.
2) The Sages sealed Ganondorf in the Twilight Realm as a means to killing him, but his power allowed him to prevail there.

The magic of the TP Sages is not strong enough to tackle the ToP head on, and I can't imagine the Sages being so stupid as not to compare their power to the ToP's at some stage beforehand. Either they attempted to kill him when he did not possess the ToP's magic, or they tried a last resort tactic by sealing him away. I think the second is more likely.

Edited by jhurvid, 30 May 2007 - 07:40 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

I really don't see much wrong with having two Light Sages at the same time, one being Rauru and the other being one of the ghostly old men from TP. It's not like the Zelda canon forbids that. It is weird, but it isn't contradicted.

Always struck me as a title that was passed down (usually in a bloodline). In particular in TWW with the whole spirit of ancient sage -> new flesh and bone sage thing. But yeah *shrugs*

[Vertiboy]

I've noticed that the only plotholes we keep discussing are the plotholes in the "post-Triforce split" theory. For every plothole that you "explain," it just creates another one, adding more and more fan fiction.

Q: What is different in the child timeline from the adult timeline that would allow Ganondorf to be caught?

A: Link gives the Hylian Royal Family a heads up of what happened, so they arrest Ganondorf.

Q: How are they (Knights of Hyrule, Sages) strong enough to subdue Ganondorf if he has the Triforce of Power?

A: Ganondorf could not access its power until the execution scene; he did not have access to its power when he first obtained it.

Q: Why did Ganondorf access enough power to conquer Hyrule in 7 years in the adult timeline, yet he is unable to access enough power to escape imprisonment until several years later in the child timeline?

A: The situation that Ganondorf is in will dictate how much of the power he can use or if he can use the crest at all.

Q: The crest activates when Ganondorf is about to die in the child timeline. What happened in the adult timeline that activated the crest, especially since it is the "good" timeline for Ganondorf, when he takes control of Hyrule?

A: Maybe he is temporarily captured or something.

(I couldn't find a good spot for this particular Q & A.)

Q: If Ganondorf did have access to the Triforce of Power's strength shortly after obtaining it, how did the Knights/Sages stop him?

A: The sealed him in magic chains or a magic bond.

Q: Why couldn't the Sages in the adult timeline, once awakened, just help Link in the final battle by magically sealing Ganon(dorf) so he could defeat him with the Master Sword easier?

A: The Sages couldn't leave the Chamber of the Sages in the Sacred Realm to help Link.

Q: Why not? We see them in Ganon's Castle and on the top of Death Mountain. They clearly leave the Chamber.

A: That doesn't count. They used image projection or some BS.

Q: If they stayed there, does that mean that they sealed themselves in the Sacred Realm when they sealed Ganon in it?

A: They are the Sages, so they can break their own bond... or something...

Q: Didn't you say that they can't leave the Chamber?

A: Um, yeah...

Q: Did the leave the Realm or not?

A: ....shut up....

This is a clear sign that your cause is lost. You have to make up more fan fiction to explain the plotholes, and you keep digging the hole deeper and deeper. Because of the ability to use items obtained in the future shown in OoT and MM, the only plothole with Link arriving before he met Zelda and before the Triforce split is that the Door of Time is open. That is it. I don't make up BS to try to explain it. I just take the hit in that particular section instead of trying to fool others and myself that it may not be a plothole. I have no trouble accepting defeat in that area. I don't make up fan fiction to try and explain it. I wouldn't be such a jerk about this if you would just pick your battles. Just accept the fact that the plotholes created by the "post-Triforce split" theory cannot be canonically or logically filled. I have acknowledged the plothole in my theory. I am not in denial.

Believe what you will, but this is the most one-sided debate that I have ever taken part in. Well, okay, second most. There was this guy who explained the MM references in TWW by saying that TWW Tingle had a dream about the events of MM and then wrote it down. That was so one-sided that I don't even consider it a debate, though, so this is still the most one-sided debate I've ever taken part in. Yeah, that sounds about right.

[Raien]

Vertiboy, what about the exact point where Link puts his hands on the Master Sword, before Ganondorf gets access to the Sacred Realm? At that point, Ganondorf would have revealed himself to be traitorous since his attack on Hyrule (warranting his later, desparate invasion of Hyrule), and Zelda could return to the castle when it was secure again, where she meets Link.

Edited by jhurvid, 31 May 2007 - 07:51 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Q: Why couldn't the Sages in the adult timeline, once awakened, just help Link in the final battle by magically sealing Ganon(dorf) so he could defeat him with the Master Sword easier?

A: The Sages couldn't leave the Chamber of the Sages in the Sacred Realm to help Link.

Q: Why not? We see them in Ganon's Castle and on the top of Death Mountain. They clearly leave the Chamber.

A: That doesn't count. They used image projection or some BS.

Q: If they stayed there, does that mean that they sealed themselves in the Sacred Realm when they sealed Ganon in it?

A: They are the Sages, so they can break their own bond... or something...

Q: Didn't you say that they can't leave the Chamber?

A: Um, yeah...

Q: Did the leave the Realm or not?

A: ....shut up....

This is a clear sign that your cause is lost.

IRONY.

[FDL]

There are still other differences that I've mentioned in previous posts.

"Differences" being things that don't line up perfectly with the OoT sages, right?

I'm guessing they are, not limited to, but including:

1) Serving the royal family;
2) Being tutors to princess Zelda;
3) Protecting the Mirror of Twilight

but none of these are necessarily not true of the OoT sages.

4) Being able to wander around outside of the SR and appearing to have no connection to it at all.
5) Appearing as ghosts that all look the same when OoT's sages appear as themselves even after being awakened as sages.

Wouldn't the TP Sages know the destiny of the Hero of Time and the OoT Sages, given that they are supposed to be the wisest men in Hyrule? Why would they fight Ganondorf when they know they don't have the strength to defeat him with the Triforce of Power?

It seems clear to me that the OoT Sages were relied upon because they were the only ones who could seal Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm, as destiny foretold. The TP Sages captured Ganondorf after destiny had been fulfilled, when he no longer possessed the Triforce of Power.

The TP sages weren't planning on sealing Ganondorf in the SR, were they? They were trying to kill him.

"We underestimated our abilities as sages and attempted to put an end to his evil magic."

Is this quote just meaningless, or something?

It doesn't refer to the Sages directly taking on the Triforce of Power. There are two possibilities that I am aware of:

1) The Sages attempted to put an end to Ganondorf's evil magic with the execution; before the magic of the ToP was activated.
2) The Sages sealed Ganondorf in the Twilight Realm as a means to killing him, but his power allowed him to prevail there.

The magic of the TP Sages is not strong enough to tackle the ToP head on, and I can't imagine the Sages being so stupid as not to compare their power to the ToP's at some stage beforehand. Either they attempted to kill him when he did not possess the ToP's magic, or they tried a last resort tactic by sealing him away. I think the second is more likely.

No, that quote does become meaningless if you use the theory you have. If the ToP was given to Ganondorf right after they stabbed him then they were not underestimating Ganondorf at all. You all believe that they would have killed Ganon if not for divine intervention and that is not overestimating their abilities. And again I'll point to the fact that the sages are said to have outsmarted Ganondorf, and are never said to be stronger.

I've noticed that the only plotholes we keep discussing are the plotholes in the "post-Triforce split" theory. For every plothole that you "explain," it just creates another one, adding more and more fan fiction.

Q: What is different in the child timeline from the adult timeline that would allow Ganondorf to be caught?

A: Link gives the Hylian Royal Family a heads up of what happened, so they arrest Ganondorf.

Q: How are they (Knights of Hyrule, Sages) strong enough to subdue Ganondorf if he has the Triforce of Power?

A: Ganondorf could not access its power until the execution scene; he did not have access to its power when he first obtained it.

Q: Why did Ganondorf access enough power to conquer Hyrule in 7 years in the adult timeline, yet he is unable to access enough power to escape imprisonment until several years later in the child timeline?

A: The situation that Ganondorf is in will dictate how much of the power he can use or if he can use the crest at all.

Q: The crest activates when Ganondorf is about to die in the child timeline. What happened in the adult timeline that activated the crest, especially since it is the "good" timeline for Ganondorf, when he takes control of Hyrule?

A: Maybe he is temporarily captured or something.

(I couldn't find a good spot for this particular Q & A.)

Q: If Ganondorf did have access to the Triforce of Power's strength shortly after obtaining it, how did the Knights/Sages stop him?

A: The sealed him in magic chains or a magic bond.

Q: Why couldn't the Sages in the adult timeline, once awakened, just help Link in the final battle by magically sealing Ganon(dorf) so he could defeat him with the Master Sword easier?

A: The Sages couldn't leave the Chamber of the Sages in the Sacred Realm to help Link.

Q: Why not? We see them in Ganon's Castle and on the top of Death Mountain. They clearly leave the Chamber.

A: That doesn't count. They used image projection or some BS.

Q: If they stayed there, does that mean that they sealed themselves in the Sacred Realm when they sealed Ganon in it?

A: They are the Sages, so they can break their own bond... or something...

Q: Didn't you say that they can't leave the Chamber?

A: Um, yeah...

Q: Did the leave the Realm or not?

A: ....shut up....

This is a clear sign that your cause is lost. You have to make up more fan fiction to explain the plotholes, and you keep digging the hole deeper and deeper. Because of the ability to use items obtained in the future shown in OoT and MM, the only plothole with Link arriving before he met Zelda and before the Triforce split is that the Door of Time is open. That is it. I don't make up BS to try to explain it. I just take the hit in that particular section instead of trying to fool others and myself that it may not be a plothole. I have no trouble accepting defeat in that area. I don't make up fan fiction to try and explain it. I wouldn't be such a jerk about this if you would just pick your battles. Just accept the fact that the plotholes created by the "post-Triforce split" theory cannot be canonically or logically filled. I have acknowledged the plothole in my theory. I am not in denial.

Believe what you will, but this is the most one-sided debate that I have ever taken part in. Well, okay, second most. There was this guy who explained the MM references in TWW by saying that TWW Tingle had a dream about the events of MM and then wrote it down. That was so one-sided that I don't even consider it a debate, though, so this is still the most one-sided debate I've ever taken part in. Yeah, that sounds about right.

READ MY FUCKING POSTS!!!!!!! None of what you say is true. You're basically a pile of lies. I've responded to every "fact" you've given and you've just ignored it so this debate can seem "one-sided". Don't fucking participate in these debates if you think that's how things fly around here, because it isn't. We're just debating about a game but when you treat whoever you're debating in a condescending way and, most importantly, DON'T READ HIS POSTS you clearly don't have a leg to stand on. But go on, keep posting made-up facts and ignoring anyone who actually proves you wrong or gives a good argument.

I'm asking everyone on here to ignore Vertiboy in this discussion. His little smear campaign shouldn't be allowed in a serious debate.

Vertiboy, what about the exact point where Link puts his hands on the Master Sword, before Ganondorf gets access to the Sacred Realm? At that point, Ganondorf would have revealed himself to be traitorous since his attack on Hyrule (warranting his later, desparate invasion of Hyrule), and Zelda could return to the castle when it was secure again, where she meets Link.

That's a little more likely, but Zelda still says Link should put the MS back. I'll ask you though, jhurvid, why are you taking Vertiboy at all seriously? Whenever I say something he can't respond to he just pretends as though I never posted it. This is not a "one-sided debate", nor are there any true "plotholes" in my points. Conversely, very few of Vertiboy's facts are truely thus.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 31 May 2007 - 09:35 AM.

[Raien]

That's a little more likely, but Zelda still says Link should put the MS back. I'll ask you though, jhurvid, why are you taking Vertiboy at all seriously? Whenever I say something he can't respond to he just pretends as though I never posted it. This is not a "one-sided debate", nor are there any true "plotholes" in my points. Conversely, very few of Vertiboy's facts are truely thus.

I rarely ever converse with Vertiboy, so I have yet to understand his form of debating.

[FDL]

Well, I ask because you asked him something as if he knows anything. I shouldn;t have said half of what I did say, but you have to admit that comparing a completely logical belief of the plot to a belief of MM being Tingle's dream is perposterous. Calling me a "lost cause" who is participating in a "one-sided debate" is obviously just being used to make you all stop taking me seriously.

I mean, we're debating a game so I don't believe it should be incredibly serious but if we are going to debate a topic in a serious manner I don't think I should be made out to be some idiot just because I disagree with any of you. Vertiboy certainly doesn't need to be saying such things when he's yet to respond to anything I've posted when I've addressed some of my so-called "plotholes". You may disagree with me but you have to admit nothing I've said has been stupid or unfounded, even if you interpret it differently. But I'm just ranting here, it's not too big a deal I guess. However, I still don't think VB should be taken seriously if this effort to make me out to be a moron keeps up.

[Kamina]

The sages tried to seal Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm? I thought they tried to seal him in hell.
Why should they seal him in the same realm where the Triforce rests/used to rest, the temple of light is located an the sages are living. That does not make any sense to me.
So if there are two Timlines after OoT, does that mean that one Ganondorf is sealed in hell or the Sacred Realm, and in the other timeline he is sealed in the Twilight realm? Am I right?

[Raien]

The TP sages weren't planning on sealing Ganondorf in the SR, were they? They were trying to kill him.

-Ganondorf had the ToP in OoT's adult timeline. With that power, no one was able to stop him from taking over Hyrule in the seven years that he ruled. All that the Hyrulians could rely upon to succeed was the fulfillment of the Sheikah legend; the coming together of the Hero of Time and the seven OoT Sages to seal Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm.

-If Ganondorf takes the ToP in the same way as the Child Timeline, then Ganondorf becomes too powerful again for anyone to defeat him. We can't argue that it took a while for Ganondorf to build up his power, because at the instant that he had access to its magic in the execution scene, he became too strong for the TP Sages to handle. Thus, we can judge that he did not have access to the magic of the ToP before the execution scene.

-In the situation that Ganondorf does not possess strength from the ToP, he is weak enough to be defeated by the Hyrulians, so he can be taken to the TP Sages for execution. Unlike in Adult OoT, Ganondorf can be killed because he is weak enough to be killed.

No, that quote does become meaningless if you use the theory you have. If the ToP was given to Ganondorf right after they stabbed him then they were not underestimating Ganondorf at all. You all believe that they would have killed Ganon if not for divine intervention and that is not overestimating their abilities. And again I'll point to the fact that the sages are said to have outsmarted Ganondorf, and are never said to be stronger.

Correct, which is a reason why I used to believe that the Triforce of Power could not be responsible for the Sages overestimating themselves; turning instead to the malice from the mirror.

However, Ricky did make a very sensible point; that the Sages were talking more specifically about them sending Ganondorf into the Twilight Realm. If we connect three things: that the Twilight Mirror was used as part of execution, that Ganondorf lacked a physical form when he met Zant, and Aonuma's quote that Ganondorf was building power in the Twilight Realm; then the Sages could have overestimated their abilities by trying to seal Ganondorf in the Twilight Realm as means to destroy him. Ganondorf prevailed in his spirit form and rebuilt his power in the Twilight Realm.

Edited by jhurvid, 31 May 2007 - 07:08 PM.

[FDL]

The TP sages weren't planning on sealing Ganondorf in the SR, were they? They were trying to kill him.

-Ganondorf had the ToP in OoT's adult timeline. With that power, no one was able to stop him from taking over Hyrule in the seven years that he ruled. All that the Hyrulians could rely upon to succeed was the fulfillment of the Sheikah legend; the coming together of the Hero of Time and the seven OoT Sages to seal Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm.

-If Ganondorf takes the ToP in the same way as the Child Timeline, then Ganondorf becomes too powerful again for anyone to defeat him. We can't argue that it took a while for Ganondorf to build up his power, because at the instant that he had access to its magic in the execution scene, he became too strong for the TP Sages to handle. Thus, we can judge that he did not have access to the magic of the ToP before the execution scene.

I'd like to mention a few things. First of all, you seem to be forgetting what I've already given plenty of examples of, which is that the Triforce pieces do not instantly grant their wielder that much power. Even if you believe Zelda was speaking about obtaining the whole Triforce in that one quote(though I don't understand why you would considering it makes less sense), in pretty much every game since OoT we've seen someone with a Triforce piece who isn't given any new powers just by obtaining it. If you believe that the GT and DT scenes with the sages should be taken at face value then you cannot say that Link gaining no new powers in TWW was just a "gameplay mechanic". TP Link as well, who had the ToC possibly since he was born, is not given any new powers until he's put in danger. Do you honestly believe that there is no correlation between the scene where Link becomes a wolf and the scene in the AG? I mean, Link didn't have the ToC shine on his hand until he was in danger as well, but does that mean the gods gave it to him then? Not likely.

-In the situation that Ganondorf does not possess strength from the ToP, he is weak enough to be defeated by the Hyrulians, so he can be taken to the TP Sages for execution. Unlike in Adult OoT, Ganondorf can be killed because he is weak enough to be killed.

No, he never says who subdues him. The fact that the sages tell how he was subdued makes me think they were involved somehow. "Brought to justice" doesn't literally mean that someone brought him to the sages you know. As for the idea that he was subdued because he was weak, you're wrong, plain and simple. The game itself says that it was the opposite. He was sooo strong that he was cocky, and this arrogance caused him to be "blind to any danger". Notice they say "blind to any danger" and not "he was weaker than us". You all say that you believe he was revealed as a threat because he got impatient, but that doesn't really add up at all.

No, that quote does become meaningless if you use the theory you have. If the ToP was given to Ganondorf right after they stabbed him then they were not underestimating Ganondorf at all. You all believe that they would have killed Ganon if not for divine intervention and that is not overestimating their abilities. And again I'll point to the fact that the sages are said to have outsmarted Ganondorf, and are never said to be stronger.

Correct, which is a reason why I used to believe that the Triforce of Power could not be responsible for the Sages overestimating themselves; turning instead to the malice from the mirror.

However, Ricky did make a very sensible point; that the Sages were talking more specifically about them sending Ganondorf into the Twilight Realm. If we connect three things: that the Twilight Mirror was used as part of execution, that Ganondorf lacked a physical form when he met Zant, and Aonuma's quote that Ganondorf was building power in the Twilight Realm; then the Sages could have overestimated their abilities by trying to seal Ganondorf in the Twilight Realm as means to destroy him. Ganondorf prevailed in his spirit form and rebuilt his power in the Twilight Realm.

But that was really all they could do. If they hadn't tried to kill him, and thus "end his evil magic", they would never have had to put the Twili in danger.

[Raien]

I'd like to mention a few things. First of all, you seem to be forgetting what I've already given plenty of examples of, which is that the Triforce pieces do not instantly grant their wielder that much power. Even if you believe Zelda was speaking about obtaining the whole Triforce in that one quote(though I don't understand why you would considering it makes less sense), in pretty much every game since OoT we've seen someone with a Triforce piece who isn't given any new powers just by obtaining it. If you believe that the GT and DT scenes with the sages should be taken at face value then you cannot say that Link gaining no new powers in TWW was just a "gameplay mechanic". TP Link as well, who had the ToC possibly since he was born, is not given any new powers until he's put in danger. Do you honestly believe that there is no correlation between the scene where Link becomes a wolf and the scene in the AG? I mean, Link didn't have the ToC shine on his hand until he was in danger as well, but does that mean the gods gave it to him then? Not likely.

The ToP gave Ganondorf immediate access to its power when he took it in OoT, and he ruled Hyrule for the next seven years. Neither Ganondorf nor Link had immediate access to its power when they possessed the pieces in TP, so this rises the question as to whether Ganondorf obtained his piece in the same manner as before. After all, it's interesting how both Ganondorf's and Link's pieces activated at the moment when they were due to fulfill important plot sequences (take over Twilight Realm / meet Midna).

As for whether my interpretation of Zelda's line "makes less sense", I challenge you on that assumption. If someone has died and you refer to them as a character, you are not merely going to account for their actions in the last ten seconds. Zelda's words reflect upon Ganondorf's evil nature and that he could not control the Triforce because his evil heart led to the split. In fact, what I find inconsistent is that you believe Ganon apparently "gained control of the ToP" by losing control of himself and becoming the demon pig. By letting the rage control him, Ganon had lost control of himself.

No, he never says who subdues him. The fact that the sages tell how he was subdued makes me think they were involved somehow. "Brought to justice" doesn't literally mean that someone brought him to the sages you know. As for the idea that he was subdued because he was weak, you're wrong, plain and simple. The game itself says that it was the opposite. He was sooo strong that he was cocky, and this arrogance caused him to be "blind to any danger". Notice they say "blind to any danger" and not "he was weaker than us". You all say that you believe he was revealed as a threat because he got impatient, but that doesn't really add up at all.

1) "Exposed, subdued and brought to justice" is a common-sense remark to refer to the capture of an enemy. It doesn't infer at all that the Sages had anything to do with the capture.

2) The game never says/implies that Ganondorf was cocky in his attack. He was blinded by his greed, his lust for the power that was in the Sacred Realm. The lust grew so strong that he launched a desperate invasion of Hyrule and was captured.

But that was really all they could do. If they hadn't tried to kill him, and thus "end his evil magic", they would never have had to put the Twili in danger.

But the impalement with the blade of light was only part of the execution. Auru, who got his information from the Sages (as he says in Telma's bar), tells us that the Twilight Mirror was used to send prisoners condemned to death directly to the underworld. Sealing Ganondorf away was not a last resort but an attempt to finish the execution process that they had begun with the impalement, and they failed which led to the Twili under threat.

I'm not trying to disprove your interpretation of events, but your argument that the quote makes no sense if Ganondorf received the ToP at that moment.

Edited by jhurvid, 01 June 2007 - 01:53 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The sages tried to seal Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm? I thought they tried to seal him in hell.
Why should they seal him in the same realm where the Triforce rests/used to rest, the temple of light is located an the sages are living. That does not make any sense to me.
So if there are two Timlines after OoT, does that mean that one Ganondorf is sealed in hell or the Sacred Realm, and in the other timeline he is sealed in the Twilight realm? Am I right?

There is no Hell in Zelda, and they sealed him in the Sacred Realm because it's the safest place to put him. (The Triforce is gone from it anyway.)

And as for the two Timeline thing, yes, basically

Edited by MikePetersSucks, 01 June 2007 - 01:17 PM.

[Raien]

There is no Hell in Zelda, and they sealed him in the Sacred Realm because it's the safest place to put him. (The Triforce is gone from it anyway.)

There is the Makai, which is not exactly Hell, but it equates to a demon-spawning ground. In OoT, the Sacred Realm had been transformed into the Makai by Ganondorf, so technically it is both.

Edited by jhurvid, 01 June 2007 - 01:51 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

But that makai she speaks of (which is probably meant to be the same one spoken of in AoL's manual) is not one where your spirit goes after death.

We know Hyrule has an afterlife since we see both Koume and Kotake and a ghost in MC move on to it, but no game have given us any details on what it's like so far. Do we all agree on this?

Edited by Duke Serkol, 01 June 2007 - 04:40 PM.

[Raien]

I agree that we don't understand the afterlife where the spirits of people go to. But the Makai appears to be the afterlife for demons, and as the Demon King, Ganon has control over this realm.

[Duke Serkol]

Afterlife of demons? Dunno, in Zelda it seems to me more like their origin. Already in AoL Ganon's minions get reinforcements from it and OoT sorta establishes it as a corrupted Sacred Realm, meaning it did not use to exist and couldn't be someone's afterlife.