There is a difference between having complete control and using maximum power. An AK-47 is as harmful in the hands of a novice as it is in the hands of an expert. An expert will just have more control, so it is more deadly in the hands of the expert.Ganondorf not having complete control over the Triforce of Power isn't made up. it gives him power, but he doesn't have complete control of it. That's pretty much what Zelda says, and that isn't made up. If we accept what Zelda said as canon, it follows that seven years earlier he was even less adept with that power, and he was also arrogant enough to fall for a trap and end up in chains (despite being powerful enough to beat the Sages in a fair fight.) The Sages, despite being able to subdue him thanks to his arrogance and their cunning, are not powerful enough to kill him and the rest unfolds as we see.
The same applies to the Triforce of Power. Even though Ganondorf didn't have complete control over the ToP, that doesn't mean he wasn't using all of it's power. Had Ganondorf complete control and the maximum power of the Triforce, it would have been more chaotic.
The fact of the matter is that if Ganondorf knew how to control the ToP enough to use it to take control of Hyrule, what do you think that the odds are he could use it to avoid arrest?
So you think that the Sages were idiots?Did you even read what you were replying to? "However, I'm more inclined to believe they did know and they just believed nothing would happen." He was saying that they overestimated their abilities and thought they could kill Ganondorf despite having the Triforce of Power, not that the Sages didn't know Ganondorf had the Triforce of Power.
You are saying that in your theory, the Sages had an evil man with the power of the gods in their custody who tried to take control of the Sacred Realm, and they assumed that when they captured him, he would think, "Well, I had a good run. I could escape if I wanted to, but I guess that I deserve this punishment. There is absolutely no chance that I would use the power of the gods to escape because all of my ambitions of taking control of the world are gone."
WTF?
That is an irrational assumption. Very irrational. If the Sages assumed that Ganondorf would just lose all ambitions, accept his punishment, and not use his power to escape, then they would be idiots. Sage =/= Dumb Man. Sage = Wise Man.
That is not even close to being a possibility, unless irrational ideas are fair game.
Besides, that still doesn't explain the WTF look on the Sages' face. Why would it surprise them that he used the power of the gods to escape?
Some people might use that phrase differently, though. Some people might say that I overestimated my ability even if I didn't know Chuck (Norris?) had the bat.Is that so? Let's take a moment to discuss a hypothetical situation (please note that I'm not being patronizing or anything like that if that's the way you read this.) Say you're a bully who decides to beat up this kid named... Chuck. Actually, let's say you're in a gang of six bullies that decide to beat up Chuck. Anyway, when you try to beat up Chuck he whips out a metal bat and starts beating you all into submission. You had no idea he had the bat, so did you really overestimate your abilities? In my opinion, no. The six of you clearly would have been able to beat him up if he hadn't had that bat, but since he did you all got beat up. Now if you knew Chuck had the bat and still tried to beat him up, then we might say you overestimated your abilities
Besides, we are splitting hairs on the English translation of the game. We don't know what kind of context that phrase can be used in when speaking in Japanese (in that culture, as well).
Being aware he has the Triforce of Power may make him more powerful, but it will also make him more arrogant. And we're not saying the Sages had enough power to do what they did in the adult timeline, we're simply saying that he walked into a trap which got him chained up, then the Triforce helped him escape his chains and kill one of them. We're only saying that the Sages had the power (their wisdom and his arrogance helped) to temporarily subdue him. He wasn't defeated, just temporarily captured.
That leaves us with more questions. How long was Ganondorf chained up before he was moved to the Desert Colossus? Was the trap set in the DC? Why wouldn't Ganondorf be able to break free when being transported to the DC? Would it even be possible to trap Ganondorf with chains when he has the ToP?
Was he in desparation when he used the ToP to take control of Hyrule? It may not have been the same kind of desparation. He may have just been desparate for Hyrule. In that case, he has probably always been desparate for Hyrule, meaning that he could always access the power to take control of Hyrule with the ToP ever since he obtained it.Or he just wasn't able to draw enough power from the Triforce to escape before desperation kicked in.
Taking control of a kingdom > Escaping chains
If I had to guess, and this is complete fan fiction, it would probably take a little ([/understatement]) more power to take control of a kingdom than it would to break free of chains. If Ganondorf can muster up enough power to take control of a kingdom, then he can probably just as easily draw up enough power to break free of chains.
I thought that was a possibility.Has anyone looked at the possibility that Zelda was referring to the WHOLE Triforce when she said that Ganondorf could not control it without a strong, righteous mind (aka, a balanced heart)?
Did he have a "righteous mind" when he transformed into Ganon? Besides, where does it say that one has to learn how to use the Triforce?No, he has to figure out how to, or have a "righteous mind" or whatever.
What do you mean Link's situation? Link in OoT or TP? Or another Link?Evidence says he wouldn't immediately have it's power. Nothing ever says the Triforce crests immediately do something like that, and Link's situation proves it. It may amplify your power but it doesn't neccesarily do it the way you say, which is immediately allow it's bearer it's full power. Again, Link proves this.
There is no proof in OoT that the Triforce of Courage ever helped him to defeat Ganon. He just had it.
In TP, Link wasn't aware that he had the ToC. It transforms him into a wolf in the TR instead of turning him into a spirit (not to be confused with Zant's crystal that is obtained later in the game). Link did not consciously choose to turn into a wolf, yet he did anyway.
What Link are you talking about, exactly?
If Link told Zelda about what Ganondorf did in the adult timeline, he would be sure to mention that Ganondorf has the ToP. Link and Zelda would tell the king/Sages, and they would rationally tell him/them that Ganondorf has the ToP. The Sages should be aware that he has the ToP. They should know that it is powerful, and that he has the capability to escape mere chains. They shouldn't have a WTF look? They do, though. They are surprised that he has the ToP. They are surprised that he breaks free of the chains.I don't know what you want me to say. You really aren't proving anything with this point.
If Link arrives before his adventure begins, however, his story would be different. He would say that in the adult timeline, Ganondorf got the ToP because they tried to stop him from getting it. He would say, however, that Ganondorf hasn't entered the SR yet, and it is not too late to stop him from doing so. They decide to leave Ganondorf alone, so they do not assume that he has the ToP. Years later, when Ganondorf attacks HC, he is arrested because HC was suspiscious of him due to Link's story. They are ready for his attack. They chain him up, and attempt to execute him. Then, through divine intervention, a way to get the Triforce that was unheard of, Ganondorf gets the ToP. The Sages are surprised because they did not know he had the ToP. He may not have had it until that moment. The fact of the matter is, though, that Ganondorf got the ToP in an unknown way (probably divine intervention), which is why they wouldn't suspect that he had (or would get) it.
Basically, my point is that the reaction of the Sages shows that they didn't know Ganondorf had the ToP. In your theory, it is irrational to think that they wouldn't know, but in my theory, it is rational to think that they wouldn't know.
The Sages have no idea how or when Ganondorf got the ToP. As far as they know, he could have had it way before they captured him. That is why the Sages would think that they overestimated their ability. They thought that they had the ability to take care of Ganondorf. They did not. They were wrong. That means that they overestimated their ability.Um, you said the gods gave it to Ganondorf through divine intervention at that time. If he's given it then, that's not an underestimation and these whacked out explanations are overthinking it more than I am. Divine intervention=/=under/overestimation, no matter how you slice it. Let me give an example. Two armies are battling one another, let's call them Green and Red. Green has destroyed all but three of Red's soldiers. Suddenly, lightning comes down and destroys the entire Green Army. They were not overestimating their strength at all. Same deal here.
Besides, Ganondorf got the ToP, and he used it to break free. The Red Army didn't use the lightning to defeat the Green Army. I know that this wouldn't happen, but Ganondorf had a choice when he got the ToP. He could either use it to escape, or he could stay there and take his punishment. (Obviously, he wouldn't choose the later.) Even though being evil is a part of Ganondorf's character, he still had a choice. Did the Red Army choose for the lightning to come down? No. The Red Army had no choice in the matter. That is the difference.
Also look above.Okay, then you're arguing that he got it at that time. See above for some argument against that.
They can't leave? Then why do they all appear to Link in Ganon's Castle after he breaks a barrier? Why do they appear at the top of Death Mountain at the end of the game? I am 1,000,000% sure that the Sages can leave the SR.No, you're generalizing far too much. There are few similarities between the sealing and the execution, aside from the fact that sages are involved. And Zelda existing is waaayyyy different than Zelda being recognized as a sage and leading the others. The fact that she exists in the child timeline doesn;t mean she can lead them. And then there's the fact that the sages are in the SR in OoT, and CANNOT LEAVE. Pretty much every sage tells Link this in OoT.
Zelda was not in the SR. She was present for the battle. After Ganon was significantly weakened, she used her power to hold him down so Link could deliver the final blow, which would give the other Sages enough time to seal him in the SR. She could not hold him down until he was weakened.
As for the similarities, the Sages, Ganon, the ToP, and sealing Ganon in another realm are all similarities. If you say that there are few similarities between the two scenes, you didn't play OoT or TP, you got ripped off, and you should go get your money back.
Let me set up a new scenario. When Ganondorf transforms into Ganon, if what you are saying is true, the 7 Sages (they can leave the SR, it is a fact) could just hold Ganon down for Link to slice with the Master Sword. They wouldn't wait for Link to weaken him. They could just hold him still (or subdue him), then transfer him to the SR. They don't do that, though.
That is what some have been suggesting about Ganondorf's arrest. They suggest that the Sages have the magical ability to subdue Ganondorf, even though he has the ToP. They didn't do it in OoT when they clearly had an opportunity and would have clearly made things easier, so why would they be able to do it to arrest Ganondorf? They couldn't.
That is the only good that the ToC ever did Link in OoT. It wasn't really useful to him until that point. He just carried it around. He didn't use it until because he didn't have the opportunity. He didn't conscously make an effort to heal with it, either. He knew he had it, but he was still surprised that it helped him to heal.See above.
He probably didn't have the ToP when he stabbed him. If he had it earlier, he would probably use it to escape and take over Hyrule again. The cycle starts again. Hyrule loses. It makes the most sense for him to at least be aware that he has it during the execution scene.
Being aware that you have something doesn't mean you can use it. I mean, Link has the ToC and is aware he has it and yet he still appears to be surprised when it does something for him like heals him towards the end of OoT.
Besides, you are just saying that he couldn't use it to fit the theory, when you should be using the evidence to make the theory itself, like I have. I don't form a theory and then see if I can fit it into the canon. I come to the best conclusion with the fewest plotholes based on the evidence, then I try to explain the plotholes.
We've had this discussion on another thread, but there is such a thing as a default assumption. There are sometimes two options that cannot be proven wrong or right, but one of them is right. This is an example that we use all the time. People can either lie or tell the truth. Usually we assume that the people on the Zelda game are telling the truth. We trust that Tingle is 35 on MM, and not 25. We trust that Link went forward in time 7 years and not 10. Even though there is no statement made by these characters saying, "I swear! I am being 100% honest!" we assume that they are telling the truth.
This applies to this situation. Either Ganondorf could or could not access the ToP's power when he first obtained it. This is just my opinion, but I think that he could access its power. When one makes a wish on the Triforce, like Link at the end of ALttP or the King of Hyrule at the end of TWW, it doesn't seem to stall for a long period of time. The wish is nearly instantly granted. The Great Sea is completely flooded only moments after the battle with Ganondorf. I would like to think that the individual crest behave the same way. Even though they don't grant wishes, they still have power. I would like to think that the power doesn't stall for very long before the crest bearer has access to it. Maybe the person doesn't have access to its power the very moment of obtaining it, but the point is that there wouldn't be enough time between Ganondorf obtaining the ToP and him having access to its power for the Sages/soldiers to subdue Ganondorf.
