320 replies to this topic

[Chaltab]

Not to be rude Chaltab, but I'm pretty sure no one here is disussing OoT's ending with the assumption that there is a single timeline, or even just that TP and TWW may take place in the same one

Hm? I didn't mention Twilight Princess at all in my statement. Even if you assume a split timeline, what I said holds in the adult timeline. OOT, Triforce is Split. > Wind Waker, Triforce is made whole again > ALTTP, Triforce is whole from the start.

Yea, it's pretty much impossible at this point.

Huh? It's fiction. Nothing's 'impossible'. I've tried to explain other threads how a split timeline is even less workable than a single timeline, but neither is 'impossible'. But again I ask, where did I bring up split or single timeline in that post? I didn't mention Twilight Princess or a single timeline.

Edited by Chaltab, 06 May 2007 - 09:25 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Ah, I understand what you mean now.
I don't think I will ever place any pre-existing games after TWW (unless future games link them together) and I don't really see how TWW would be a good lead into ALttP since Ganon has escaped the seal, is dead, the Triforce is lost and Hyrule devastated by a whole ocean of water, but I get your point now.

[Chaltab]

Ah, I understand what you mean now.
I don't think I will ever place any pre-existing games after TWW (unless future games link them together) and I don't really see how TWW would be a good lead into ALttP since Ganon has escaped the seal, is dead, the Triforce is lost and Hyrule devastated by a whole ocean of water, but I get your point now.

Well, my timeline solves Ganon's death quite simply: the FSA Ganondorf is a reincarnation of the Ganondrof that died in TWW.

The Triforce 'lost'? That's a big assumption when it's just as easy to assume it returned to the sacred realm, and obviously was eventually found given the story of LOZ and AOL.

Hyrule in FSA and in ALTTP is a new nation named Hyrule or the old nation somehow rescued from the Flood. Obviously either of these scenarios isn't provable by canon, at least not yet, but assuming that there was never again a new Hyrule is also a big leap of logic.

The Seal is interesting because there are actually two or three seals. The first was the seal on the sacred realm that was created in the Adult Ocarina timeline. The second was the one created by the gods when they initially Flooded Hyrule in TWW's backstory. There may be a third, the 'seal on Ganon's power' that was removed when the Hero of Winds removed the Master Sword, but that may be the same as the seal of the gods.

The second seal was broken in Wind Waker, but the first seal, from Ocarina, was still there and described in the ALTTP backstory. That seal kept the reborn Ganon from leaving the Sacred Realm in ALTTP, and I think Link stopped Ganon before it broke.

[Vertiboy]

Here's the deal. I haven't read any replies since my last post because I did not post here to debate when Link arrives in his childhood. I posted here to say that no matter when Link arrives in his childhood, before or after his adventure, the Song of Storms cycle is not disrupted in the child timeline, so the SoS does not contradict the split timeline.

With that being said, however, I still agree with the point that not every single piece of information is canon. I don't use that idea as liberally as some people, though.

Edited by Vertiboy, 07 May 2007 - 03:54 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Well, my timeline solves Ganon's death quite simply: the FSA Ganondorf is a reincarnation of the Ganondrof that died in TWW.

Same here, except for replacing TWW with TP

The Triforce 'lost'? That's a big assumption when it's just as easy to assume it returned to the sacred realm, and obviously was eventually found given the story of LOZ and AOL.

When I say lost I only mean that we don't know what happened to it after the end of TWW, and that is no assumption, while believing that it returned to the Sacred Realm (when never before it has been stated that the Triforce does on its own) definitely is. Furthermore, we do not know if any of the pre-existing games are to happen after TWW (which includes LoZ and AoL) so...

Hyrule in FSA and in ALTTP is a new nation named Hyrule or the old nation somehow rescued from the Flood. Obviously either of these scenarios isn't provable by canon, at least not yet, but assuming that there was never again a new Hyrule is also a big leap of logic.

Now that is one huge assumtpion, especially when nothing in any games suggests it whereas the King's speech seems to suggest that Hyrule is gone for good and whatever land Link and Tetra may find won't be called Hyrule (unless you want Tetra to uncharacteristically disregard his dying words and name it Hyrule anyway)

There may be a third, the 'seal on Ganon's power' that was removed when the Hero of Winds removed the Master Sword, but that may be the same as the seal of the gods.

The latter seems more likely... I think the idea is that Ganondorf hadn't truly escaped the second seal but only found a way to manifest himself in the world above (even though he destroys a frickin island before Link retrieves the Master Sword... plot hole? )

The second seal was broken in Wind Waker, but the first seal, from Ocarina, was still there and described in the ALTTP backstory. That seal kept the reborn Ganon from leaving the Sacred Realm in ALTTP, and I think Link stopped Ganon before it broke.

If the first seal wasn't broken, why did the Gods need to step in and make a second one? And ALttP does say the seal is broken doesn't it? (Though of course one would wonder what Ganon was waiting for if that was the case, but nonetheless that's what the script stated several times).

Edited by Duke Serkol, 07 May 2007 - 04:28 PM.

[Chaltab]

Same here, except for replacing TWW with TP

I don't think that really works assuming that TP happens in the child timeline (and that the child timeline is a split timeline parallel to the adult timeline)...

For this reason--the seal on the sacred realm happened in the adult ending of Ocarina. ALTTP following after a world in which the sages seal never happened requires a brand new Imprisoning War to make the ALTTP seal.

When I say lost I only mean that we don't know what happened to it after the end of TWW, and that is no assumption, while believing that it returned to the Sacred Realm (when never before it has been stated that the Triforce does on its own) definitely is. Furthermore, we do not know if any of the pre-existing games are to happen after TWW (which includes LoZ and AoL) so...

It's generally held that AOL and LOZ are the latest two games in the timeline, for what that's worth. However, you are right that assuming it returned to the sacred realm is a big assumption. Either way, unless TWW is the final game in a timeline, we know it MUST be found eventually.

Now that is one huge assumtpion, especially when nothing in any games suggests it whereas the King's speech seems to suggest that Hyrule is gone for good and whatever land Link and Tetra may find won't be called Hyrule (unless you want Tetra to uncharacteristically disregard his dying words and name it Hyrule anyway)

He said "that land won't be Hyrule. It will be YOUR LAND", which means, if it's Tetra's land she can name it whatever she wants to. Granted the game does give the impression that Daphnes didn't want the new nation to be called Hyrule, but what else is there to call it, really?

If the first seal wasn't broken, why did the Gods need to step in and make a second one? And ALttP does say the seal is broken doesn't it? (Though of course one would wonder what Ganon was waiting for if that was the case, but nonetheless that's what the script stated several times).

The first seal wasn't broken, but Ganondorf seemed to have found a way around it in the TWW backstory. The common term I've seen on this board is 'circumventing the seal' in order to escape it without breaking it. The second seal came with the Flood, probably because, for whatever reason the Hero didn't appear to thwart this attack by Ganon.

As for ALTTP, I'm not sure if the seal was broken at any point during the game, as It's been years since I've played through it. Either way, the whole point of him kidnapping the maidens was to break the seal, so we know it wasn't broken up until that point.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Okay, apparently Vertiboy missed part of my last post, so I'm gonna go ahead and repeat it.

Rational explanations have been given, they just can't be proven. And who, besides you, says that the castle is dangerous at that point in time? Ganon took the people of Hyrule by surprise when he went after the Ocarina of Time (he was only concerned with the Ocarina, so him occupying the castle is an assumption,) security got stepped up in response and Ganon, from that point on, would not be trusted anywhere near the castle or Zelda. Now, you seem to believe the castle surrendered right away because Impa says it wasn't long before they did surrender, but I honestly don't believe he had the power at the time of that attack to seriously take Hyrule Castle. He caught them off guard and forced Zelda and Impa to flee, but I highly doubt he occupied the castle at that point.

...

Those, with the possible exception of 3, are facts in Zelda's mind at that point in time. You really can't deny any of those facts unless you seriously believe the Gerudo are powerful enough to occupy Hyrule Castle without need of the Triforce of Power, and of course they would rather leave the defense of this castle to its own brainwashed soldiers than defend it themselves (I guess Ganondorf was trying to pretend he'd been defeated? Kinda smart if there's any chance of Zelda returning to the castle, but Ganondorf seems a bit too proud to try it.)

As Impa says in the quote you just quoted, Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time. Short is a relative term that doesn't necessarily mean within fifteen minutes. It seems more realistic that Ganon would lack the power to take the castle at that time (people don't surrender lightly, and I highly doubt the Gerudo had a strong enough army to seriously take Hyrule Castle,) but would take it shortly after obtaining the Triforce of Power. Impa's statement would still be true, and it makes more sense because Hyrule Castle is surrendering to a Triforce wielding madman, not the leader of what I assume would be a lesser army catching them with their pants down and taking a fortified position despite the fact that he wasn't even after the castle to begin with.

Edited by BourgeoisJerry, 08 May 2007 - 02:07 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

ALTTP following after a world in which the sages seal never happened requires a brand new Imprisoning War to make the ALTTP seal.

That it does. Why do you think Ganon can freely open portals to the Dark World in FSA?

unless TWW is the final game in a timeline, we know it MUST be found eventually.

But if there are two timelines, AoL can be the final game in one and TWW (for the time being) the final game in the other.

the game does give the impression that Daphnes didn't want the new nation to be called Hyrule, but what else is there to call it, really?

"Tetra's kingdom of plundering fun"? Dunno, it's her pick... but it is significant that she has gone back to being Tetra, dropping her Zelda identity.

The first seal wasn't broken, but Ganondorf seemed to have found a way around it in the TWW backstory. The common term I've seen on this board is 'circumventing the seal' in order to escape it without breaking it.

That may be but... where do you get it? I don't think the game ever says or merely suggest that he circumvented it.

Either way, the whole point of him kidnapping the maidens was to break the seal, so we know it wasn't broken up until that point.

Ah yes, no argument there (I think I misunderstood that bit of your previous post).

Edited by Duke Serkol, 08 May 2007 - 12:05 PM.

[Vertiboy]

Okay, apparently Vertiboy missed part of my last post, so I'm gonna go ahead and repeat it.

Okay, apparently you missed part of my last post, so I'm gonna go ahead and repeat it.

Here's the deal. I haven't read any replies since my last post because I did not post here to debate when Link arrives in his childhood. I posted here to say that no matter when Link arrives in his childhood, before or after his adventure, the Song of Storms cycle is not disrupted in the child timeline, so the SoS does not contradict the split timeline.

I am done debating about when Link arrives for now. I want to know everyone's opinion on what I said about disagreeing with TML's article. I do not think that OoT is self-inconsistent when the split timeline is applied. That is what I wanted to originally discuss, so that is what I am going to discuss.

When any conversations about my opinion on this matter are over, then I will gladly debate about when Link arrives. Until then, you don't need to repeat your previous post because I will not read them, unless they are important to the debate at hand.

The debate at hand before I accidentally got us onto when Link arrives was whether or not OoT is self-inconsistent when different timeline theories are involved.

Edited by Vertiboy, 08 May 2007 - 11:58 AM.

[Chaltab]

That it does. Why do you think Ganon can freely open portals to the Dark World in FSA?

Because he has the Dark Mirror, presumably. The Dark World of ALTTP doesn't really behave like the Dark World of ALTTP, so I don't think they're the same thing. I personally think that 'Dark World' is actually Twilight; The FSA Dark World was related to a temple in the desert and had a mirror with a dark tribe sealed inside of it. Obviously the Mirror can't be the same one Midna destroyed in TP, but I think that the TP writers were trying to link the Twilight Realm to the Pyramid in FSA. Similarly, things in FSA's Dark World can interact with things in the Light World, but can't be seen, similar to the Wolf Form in TP.

But if there are two timelines, AoL can be the final game in one and TWW (for the time being) the final game in the other.

Sure, if that's the way you want to arrange your timeline.

That may be but... where do you get it? I don't think the game ever says or merely suggest that he circumvented it.

Well, the game isn't really all that forthcoming on exactly what happened, so 'circumvented the seal' is probably an assumption that we've made that allows us to explain how he's out in TWW and yet the seal still exists in ALTTP. (And FSA explains how he got back in the sacred realm, seing that he was sealed in the Four Sword and the Four Sword was in the Dark World in GBA ALTTP.)

[Raien]

Because he has the Dark Mirror, presumably.

Ganon could make portals to the Dark World after the Mirror was recovered by Zelda. The fact that he makes the portals with the Trident suggests that this is responsible for the portals.

[Duke Serkol]

I personally think that 'Dark World' is actually Twilight

Ah yes, I forgot about that (read it in your sig).

The FSA Dark World was related to a temple in the desert and had a mirror with a dark tribe sealed inside of it.

Not as far as I know.

things in FSA's Dark World can interact with things in the Light World, but can't be seen, similar to the Wolf Form in TP.

Ah wait, so you think the FSA Dark World in Hyrule wrapped in Twilight, not the Twilight Realm where the Twili live, don't you? Interesting idea, I don't really think we have sufficient basis to assume that (considering how in TP Twilight wasn't an individual phenomenon, when an area was affected all in it were affacted) but very interesting nonetheless

FSA explains how he got back in the sacred realm, seing that he was sealed in the Four Sword and the Four Sword was in the Dark World in GBA ALTTP.

Again, that's pretty close to what I think
In my opinion, we are meant to assume from Ganon being sealed in the sword at the end of FSA and the sword being sealed with him in ALttP that the sealing happened between the two games (meaning it is a similar seal to that of OoT but another one still).

Ganon could make portals to the Dark World after the Mirror was recovered by Zelda. The fact that he makes the portals with the Trident suggests that this is responsible for the portals.

Was gonna add that but you beat me to it

Edited by Duke Serkol, 08 May 2007 - 07:17 PM.

[Chaltab]

Ganon could make portals to the Dark World after the Mirror was recovered by Zelda. The fact that he makes the portals with the Trident suggests that this is responsible for the portals.

Ah, yeah, you're right about that. It's been a while since I've finished FSA. Nonetheless, the Trident was found in the Pyramid, and if the Trident is what makes the portals to the Dark World, then the connection of the FSA Dark World to the Pyramid still stands.

Ah wait, so you think the FSA Dark World in Hyrule wrapped in Twilight, not the Twilight Realm where the Twili live, don't you? Interesting idea, I don't really think we have sufficient basis to assume that (considering how in TP Twilight wasn't an individual phenomenon, when an area was affected all in it were affacted) but very interesting nonetheless smile.gif

Yes, this is correct. Remember the people under the Twilight in TP didn't realize they were in another type of reality. As far as they could tell, it was as though time had simply stopped at dusk. My idea places that condition as what you experience through much of FSA, and when you, as Link, enter the Dark World through a portal, you're experiencing something similar to what TP Link was like in Wolf Form, where he couldn't be seen but could still interact with the light world.

Alternatively, the new Dark World could be something Ganon just conjured up with the Trident. Either way I think it behaves sufficentlly different enough from the ALTTP Dark World to say that it's probably not the corrupted Sacred Realm.

Edited by Chaltab, 08 May 2007 - 11:12 PM.

[SwordBreaker]

I've read this article awhile back. Got a bit confused, but I enjoyed it and finally understand what you're going for. I wonder for how long this idea has been lingering in your head, TML?

You've opened up an interesting way to look at the Zelda Timeline, TML...the big picture, the bottom line, etc. I agree with you on the fact that if we keep nitpicking on the smallest of things and parallelisms between the Zelda games, we magic of debating the timeline will be lost. If we try connecting every single factor and aiming for 100% canon, debates will go on and on until they become dry. Although it's interesting and fun to point out certain similarities between Zelda games, it's impossible that every single thing we point out serves one common purpose. The creators of the Zelda series often make minor references and interesting plot points because it's fun from their point of view, and from our point of view it's clever and nostalgic. Too often I encounter and over-think certain events in a Zelda game and go, "Hell yes; this is why I play Zelda!"

At times I feel that the reason you wrote about "The Song of Storms" too much is that you intentionally want to make people pissed about this theory to show your main point. You took something very small and somewhat insignificant and turned it into something important. It's exactly like what's happening in this thread; everyone's so busy trying to disprove the Song of Storms we're actually forgetting why this article was written in the first place. I mean...if we look and think hard enough, I'm sure that someone will turn up with something as "minor" as "The Song of Storms" and put it into the same perspective of your article, TML.

Indeed, you can't have a timeline and canon in one place. Also, I feel that with this article the term "canon" is not fully compatible with the Zelda series...you can never know what goes through the Zelda creators' heads, but I'm sure that not everything they think about has to be "canon".

[Duke Serkol]

when you, as Link, enter the Dark World through a portal, you're experiencing something similar to what TP Link was like in Wolf Form, where he couldn't be seen but could still interact with the light world.

So your idea is that everybody is like spirits and Link ceases to be one (seeing the same place with "wolf senses") when he enters a portal? Or the other way around? Anyway, I don't think that was the case.
In TP, Twilight Hyrule was simply Hyrule deprived of Light, not a parallel (co-existing) world as in FSA; you didn't go from one to the other without moving to a different area, Link simply was impossible to perceive for the other people (and on a side note... we see spirits in FSA, and they are not in relation to the Dark World)

Alternatively, the new Dark World could be something Ganon just conjured up with the Trident.

Unlikely. People refer to it as something that has been known to exist for a good while.

Either way I think it behaves sufficentlly different enough from the ALTTP Dark World to say that it's probably not the corrupted Sacred Realm.

But does it really? Sure people do not transform while in it, but ALttP said that the air of the Dark World was changed to cause that by Ganon's wish on the Triforce, so maybe that simply still has to happen.
Other than that it is a LOT like the Dark World of ALttP: it's a co-existing distorted version of Hyrule, and manipulating things in one causes changes in the other (although the mechanic of this is slightly different so it can take advantage of the GBA connectivity).

...by the way, I just realized that, besides the assumptions below which I do not share, your timeline is exactly the timeline I would have if I was still a single timeliner (I mean, I do idly wonder where I would place all games within one timeline if I had to, and well that would be the result )

Edited by Duke Serkol, 09 May 2007 - 02:29 PM.

[Vertiboy]

I guess that no one really disagrees too much with my views on Ocarina of Time not being self-inconsistent, so I'm going to resume the debate.

I want to first say that I can see why one would believe the Hylian Royal Family still controls Hyrule Castle after Ganondorf attacks. I am not saying that interpretation is superior to mine. I am saying that it is equal, unless someone finds more information in favor of one of the ideas.

Anyway, let me set up two scenarios with what I have gathered from the opposing side's beliefs.

In the adult timeline, Link draws the Master Sword, and Ganondorf gets the Triforce of Power. Link is gone for 7 years. In that time, Ganondorf uses the ToP to take control of Hyrule. According to your beliefs, the HRF was in HC. It would make sense for Ganondorf and some men to battle a Hylian soldiers in order to take control of Hyrule. Because of the ToP, Ganondorf defeats the Hylian soldiers, and he takes control of Hyrule. 7 years after falling asleep, Link awakens and seals Ganondorf with the help of the Sages. Link is sent back to his childhood.

In the child timeline, Link draws the MS, and Ganondorf gets the ToP. Link then arrives from the adult timeline. Link talks to Zelda, who according to your beliefs has come back to HC. The two decide that Ganondorf should be delt with because if they do nothing, he will cause trouble in Hyrule. Presumably, it would be Hylian soldiers that arrest Ganondorf. He is scheduled for execution, but he uses the ToP to break free, so he is then sealed in the Twilight Realm.

I see a huge gap in logic in these beliefs.

How is it that, in the adult timeline, the Hylians cannot defeat Ganondorf, who has the ToP, but in the child timeline, they can defeat him, and he still has the Triforce of Power? The only difference in the child timeline is that Link is around. Does Link have some kind of magical sense about him that empowers normal Hylian soldiers to be able to arrest a man with the power of the goddesses?

You would think that if Ganondorf had (or was aware that he had) the ToP in the child timeline, that he would be able to avoid being arrested. I mean, he presumably defeats an entire army in the adult timeline with the ToP, but he presumably loses to a couple of soldiers trying to arrest him in the child timeline, despite the fact that he still has the ToP, in your opinion.

That is too huge of a gap in logic to be an unnoticed plothole by the writers. If Aonuma or one of the writers of TP noticed that, wouldn't you think that he would try to explain that somehow? Isn't it kind of important to know how he defeats an entire army in one case but is subdued by some soldiers in another?

Also, many of you are saying that the split timeline didn't exist back when OoT came out. I am not saying that I agree or disagree. (None of us know for sure, no matter how much some of us would like to think we do.) Keep that in mind when responding to my next point.

If Link arrived in his childhood after the Triforce split, it wouldn't be any different than simply dropping the MS, correct? Some of you also say that Link didn't necessarily have to sneak into HC, but just show them the Triforce of Courage, etc., correct? If that is the case, then as soon as Link found out that he had the ToC, why didn't he just drop the MS, go to HC, show it to the soldiers so they would let him in, tell Zelda about what happened, etc.? He could have saved himself the effort of fighting Ganon if he could just go back into the past and indirectly take care of him there. Would you rather seal an evil man in the future or have said evil man executed in present time?

Most of you cannot say that Link did it to help the adult timeline because, again, most of you have said that you don't believe the split timeline existed back when OoT came out.

Saying that he did it for the benifits of a theoretical retroactive sealing of Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm would also not be an acceptable answer. Again, if Link could have Ganondorf executed in the present instead of merely sealing him in the future, Link would probably choose execution. It would ensure that the threat can no longer be a threat.

There you have it. There are the two questions that need to be answered.

1. Why does Ganondorf succeed in the adult timeline but fail in the child timeline if he theoretically has the Triforce of Power in both timelines?

2. Why doesn't Link skip unnecessary conflicts with Ganon to merely seal him when he can go to his present time and have a chance to execute him.

Edited by Vertiboy, 09 May 2007 - 04:34 PM.

[Raien]

I want to first say that I can see why one would believe the Hylian Royal Family still controls Hyrule Castle after Ganondorf attacks. I am not saying that interpretation is superior to mine. I am saying that it is equal, unless someone finds more information in favor of one of the ideas.

I think that the placement of Hylian guards around the castle, instead of Gerudo soldiers, is evidence that the Hylians have control of the situation. We know that Ganondorf launched a stealth attack to get the Ocarina of Time, so in my opinion, he abandoned control of the castle to chase Zelda for her possession.

After a certain period of time, it would become safe for Zelda to return to Hyrule Castle, at which point Link would visit her in the ending scene to OoT. This does assume that there was a time gap between Link leaving the Temple of Time and him meeting Zelda, and it contradicts the view that the conversation was influential in creating the split timeline, but it is the only answer I can see that does not create time travel-related inconsistencies.

Does Link have some kind of magical sense about him that empowers normal Hylian soldiers to be able to arrest a man with the power of the goddesses?

Once Ganondorf had conducted his sneak attack, and then abandoned his control, the Hylian soldiers would never trust him again. Thus, Ganondorf was forced to launch a full-scale invasion of Hyrule, which was the big terrible thing that brought about his execution, according to Aonuma in Blue Swamp.

You would think that if Ganondorf had (or was aware that he had) the ToP in the child timeline, that he would be able to avoid being arrested. I mean, he presumably defeats an entire army in the adult timeline with the ToP, but he presumably loses to a couple of soldiers trying to arrest him in the child timeline, despite the fact that he still has the ToP, in your opinion.

I don't believe that Ganondorf touched the Triforce before Link split the timeline, but for the record, just because Ganondorf possesses the ToP does not necessarily mean that he has access to its magic. Cite Link in Twilight Princess.

Edited by jhurvid, 09 May 2007 - 05:07 PM.

[FDL]

Anyway, let me set up two scenarios with what I have gathered from the opposing side's beliefs.

In the adult timeline, Link draws the Master Sword, and Ganondorf gets the Triforce of Power. Link is gone for 7 years. In that time, Ganondorf uses the ToP to take control of Hyrule. According to your beliefs, the HRF was in HC. It would make sense for Ganondorf and some men to battle a Hylian soldiers in order to take control of Hyrule. Because of the ToP, Ganondorf defeats the Hylian soldiers, and he takes control of Hyrule. 7 years after falling asleep, Link awakens and seals Ganondorf with the help of the Sages. Link is sent back to his childhood.

In the child timeline, Link draws the MS, and Ganondorf gets the ToP. Link then arrives from the adult timeline. Link talks to Zelda, who according to your beliefs has come back to HC. The two decide that Ganondorf should be delt with because if they do nothing, he will cause trouble in Hyrule. Presumably, it would be Hylian soldiers that arrest Ganondorf. He is scheduled for execution, but he uses the ToP to break free, so he is then sealed in the Twilight Realm.

I see a huge gap in logic in these beliefs.

How is it that, in the adult timeline, the Hylians cannot defeat Ganondorf, who has the ToP, but in the child timeline, they can defeat him, and he still has the Triforce of Power? The only difference in the child timeline is that Link is around. Does Link have some kind of magical sense about him that empowers normal Hylian soldiers to be able to arrest a man with the power of the goddesses?

That's the thing, there are many reasons why he'd change the fate of Hyrule in some way. He could warn them of the second attack, he could search out the TP sages for help, etc. It doesn't have to be the absurd conclusion you've jumped to when there're many more reasonable things.

You would think that if Ganondorf had (or was aware that he had) the ToP in the child timeline, that he would be able to avoid being arrested. I mean, he presumably defeats an entire army in the adult timeline with the ToP, but he presumably loses to a couple of soldiers trying to arrest him in the child timeline, despite the fact that he still has the ToP, in your opinion.

That is too huge of a gap in logic to be an unnoticed plothole by the writers. If Aonuma or one of the writers of TP noticed that, wouldn't you think that he would try to explain that somehow? Isn't it kind of important to know how he defeats an entire army in one case but is subdued by some soldiers in another?

Honestly, while it's cool to think that Ganondorf took on the whole army we have no proof that that's how it went down. For all we know, the castle surrendered because they believed Zelda was dead or something(though it wouldn't necessarily work this way with an "after-MS pulled" theory). There are many other reasons why he could've won, and the sages and Link could've prevented it.

Also, many of you are saying that the split timeline didn't exist back when OoT came out. I am not saying that I agree or disagree. (None of us know for sure, no matter how much some of us would like to think we do.) Keep that in mind when responding to my next point.

If Link arrived in his childhood after the Triforce split, it wouldn't be any different than simply dropping the MS, correct? Some of you also say that Link didn't necessarily have to sneak into HC, but just show them the Triforce of Courage, etc., correct? If that is the case, then as soon as Link found out that he had the ToC, why didn't he just drop the MS, go to HC, show it to the soldiers so they would let him in, tell Zelda about what happened, etc.? He could have saved himself the effort of fighting Ganon if he could just go back into the past and indirectly take care of him there. Would you rather seal an evil man in the future or have said evil man executed in present time?

Most of you cannot say that Link did it to help the adult timeline because, again, most of you have said that you don't believe the split timeline existed back when OoT came out.

No, it wouldn't happen like that. Split timelines involve Link changing something in his time and thus changing history, but the original history still exists. He'd basically be dooming the Hyrule of the adult timeline to utter destruction. Plus, as far as we know, until the "way between times" was completely closed Link couldn't do that.

Saying that he did it for the benifits of a theoretical retroactive sealing of Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm would also not be an acceptable answer. Again, if Link could have Ganondorf executed in the present instead of merely sealing him in the future, Link would probably choose execution. It would ensure that the threat can no longer be a threat.

That's a problem with the game itself rather than any theory, I think. But the fact is, everything Link does is supposed to be predestined until he saves the adult timeline and then suddenly he's given the ability to change it's fate. That's exactly what happens in MM, also. Kaepora Gaebora tells Link that each land is fated to be destroyed and that only Link can change it's fate. That seems similar.

Sorry if I'm not coherent, it's waaayyyy to hot here.

[Vertiboy]

Once Ganondorf had conducted his sneak attack, and then abandoned his control, the Hylian soldiers would never trust him again. Thus, Ganondorf was forced to launch a full-scale invasion of Hyrule, which was the big terrible thing that brought about his execution, according to Aonuma in Blue Swamp.

He'd probably have to launch a full-scale invasion of Hyrule in the adult timeline, as well. He also be aware that he has the Triforce of Power in both timelines as well. As long as he has the ToP, he can pwn Hyrule. He would be able to avoid arrest.

I don't believe that Ganondorf touched the Triforce before Link split the timeline, but for the record, just because Ganondorf possesses the ToP does not necessarily mean that he has access to its magic. Cite Link in Twilight Princess.

I don't believe it, either. I was saying that the other side (post-split arrival) believes that.

As far as we know, the execution scene was the first time that Ganondorf was aware he possessed the ToP in the child timeline. I agree that it would be hard for him to use it willingly if he doesn't know that he has it. That is why I think that Ganondorf was captured in the child timeline. He didn't have or wasn't aware that he had the ToP, so he was arrested. Sometime, the goddesses chose him to carry the ToP, and the rest is history.

That's the thing, there are many reasons why he'd change the fate of Hyrule in some way. He could warn them of the second attack, he could search out the TP sages for help, etc. It doesn't have to be the absurd conclusion you've jumped to when there're many more reasonable things.

Whether Link warns Hyrule Castle about a second attack or not, Ganondorf still has the Triforce of Power. He is still capable of taking over Hyrule.

I doubt that Sages could do much. They haven't displayed the abilities to stop him at full power before. Let's take a look, shall we?

In ALttP, Agahnim successfully kidnaps and teleports all of the maidens to the Dark World.

In OoT, Ganondorf's evil stops the Sages from hearing their call.

In TWW's backstory, Ganondorf at least kills (or is responsible for) the deaths of Laruto and Fado, both of which are Sages.

In FSA, Ganondorf, Vaati, and/or Dark Link kidnap the maidens.

In TP, Ganondorf kills the Water Sage. The other Sages are afraid of him since he has the power of the gods. They don't trap him with a magic spell. They don't kill him with their magic. They open the portal to the Twilight Realm to seal him away, instead of using their powers to execute him as planned. Let it be noted that before they found out that he had the Triforce of Power, they intended on executing him. After they found out that he had it, they were afraid and merely tried to seal him.

All throughout Zelda history, the Sages are pwnt by Ganon and his men. I doubt that 6 old men would be able to help capture Ganondorf.

Besides, there is also the problem with the chains. If the Sages knew that he had the power of the gods (which Link should have told them), why would they restrain him with chains? Would you tie up the Rock with shoelaces? No. Would you tie up a man with the power of the gods with chains? No.

No matter how you look at it, the Triforce of Power = domination. As long as Ganondorf has (or is aware that he has) the ToP, he is capable of resisting arrest and taking control of Hyrule. No amount of warning or magical old men can change that.

Honestly, while it's cool to think that Ganondorf took on the whole army we have no proof that that's how it went down. For all we know, the castle surrendered because they believed Zelda was dead or something(though it wouldn't necessarily work this way with an "after-MS pulled" theory). There are many other reasons why he could've won, and the sages and Link could've prevented it.

As above, Link and the Sages couldn't prevent anything.

Also, I understand that Ganondorf probably didn't defeat the entire army on his own in the adult timeline.

If we want to get into 'what if' debating, though, if it came down to it, Ganondorf probably could defeat the entire Hylian army alone. All he has to do is turn into Ganon, and he is undefeatable unless one of the soldiers just happen to be carrying a Master Sword.

Either way, Sheik says that Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to come to power in the adult timeline. That is a fact. As you have said, we don't know exactly how he did it (though if OoT=IW, that would give us some insight). All that matters is that if he used the ToP to conquer Hyrule in one timeline, he would certainly use it in another.

No, it wouldn't happen like that. Split timelines involve Link changing something in his time and thus changing history, but the original history still exists. He'd basically be dooming the Hyrule of the adult timeline to utter destruction. Plus, as far as we know, until the "way between times" was completely closed Link couldn't do that.

I was saying that in the context that the split timeline didn't exist (in the opinion of some) back when OoT came out.

Besides, how would closing a door influence Link's free will (if there is such a thing in the Zelda universe)? Are you suggesting that some kind of higher power would prevent Link from entering Hyrule Castle and telling Zelda that the future might suck if they don't do something? Link would walk to Hyrule Castle, get close to the courtyard, then hit some kind of invisible wall simply because he hasn't closed a door yet?

....Really?

That's a problem with the game itself rather than any theory, I think. But the fact is, everything Link does is supposed to be predestined until he saves the adult timeline and then suddenly he's given the ability to change it's fate. That's exactly what happens in MM, also. Kaepora Gaebora tells Link that each land is fated to be destroyed and that only Link can change it's fate. That seems similar.

See above.

Edited by Vertiboy, 09 May 2007 - 07:39 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

He didn't have or wasn't aware that he had the ToP, so he was arrested. Sometime, the goddesses chose him to carry the ToP, and the rest is history.

Well then, why not on the moment of his execution?

No matter how you look at it, the Triforce of Power = domination.

Small correction: Ganondorf + Triforce of Power X Link - Master Sword = Ganon Domination
Change the minus before Master Sword and the outcome is quite different

I was saying that in the context that the split timeline didn't exist (in the opinion of some) back when OoT came out.

Yup. But even if we account for the split, one could still say that if Link returns to the past as usual after the ending, he could just as well go back right after the cutscenes in which he learns he has the Triforce of Courage, show it off and warn everybody -before- the timeline is split, thus changing the future... except he can't, because barring the creation of a new timeline, Link's future is already set into stone as proven by the Song of Storms which has already been played by him before Link does so in the past (meaning he's destined to do whatever he does in the past, it's already been accounted for).
So yeah, that would be further indication that Link has no means of changing anything (again, until Zelda sends him back in a different way, before their first encounter, creating a new timeline in which Link has the chance to change things).

Edited by Duke Serkol, 09 May 2007 - 09:31 PM.

[BourgeoisJerry]

I doubt that Sages could do much. They haven't displayed the abilities to stop him at full power before. Let's take a look, shall we?

In ALttP, Agahnim successfully kidnaps and teleports all of the maidens to the Dark World.

Those weren't Sages, they were just the descendants of Sages. Using them as a judge for what the Sages are capable of is like using Link's family to judge what he should be capable of, but many of the Knights of Hyrule (which he was descended from in A Link to the Past) were wiped out by Ganon's initial invasion of Hyrule while Link was able to take on Ganon's army and Ganon himself with very little help at all. If Link can be so much more capable than people he's related to, I think it's safe to say that Sages can be more capable than people they're related to that aren't Sages themselves.

In OoT, Ganondorf's evil stops the Sages from hearing their call.

That says nothing for how capable they would be of subduing him if Link saw to it that they awakened. He may not be as strong as a child as he is as an adult, but the Temples probably aren't as bad in the past as they were after Ganondorf had been ruling for seven years.

In TWW's backstory, Ganondorf at least kills (or is responsible for) the deaths of Laruto and Fado, both of which are Sages.

They were also both alone. If Sages alone were as powerful as Sages together, I don't understand why Link needed all seven of them in Ocarina of Time or all seven of their descendants in A Link to the Past.

In FSA, Ganondorf, Vaati, and/or Dark Link kidnap the maidens.

Are we even sure those maidens have anything to do with the Sages? I don't recall seeing the word Sage at any point in that game.

In TP, Ganondorf kills the Water Sage. The other Sages are afraid of him since he has the power of the gods. They don't trap him with a magic spell. They don't kill him with their magic. They open the portal to the Twilight Realm to seal him away, instead of using their powers to execute him as planned. Let it be noted that before they found out that he had the Triforce of Power, they intended on executing him. After they found out that he had it, they were afraid and merely tried to seal him.

I'm not saying the Sages have enough power to kill Ganondorf, I'm just saying they have enough power to temporarily subdue him. Enough power to think they can kill him.

It was all our doing...
We overestimated our abilities as sages and attempted to put an end to Ganondorf's evil magic...

The theory is that the Sages "overestimated their abilities as sages and attempted to put an end to Ganondorf's evil magic..." but failed and ended up having to seal him with the Twilight Mirror instead. Ganondorf was (arguably) overconfident, and ended up being subdued and was to be executed, but the Sages weren't as powerful as they thought they were and you know the rest.

As for Link not simply going back in time to end Ganondorf's menace the easy way (if you can call it that,) that'd be pretty anticlimactic for one thing, and who's to say he even thought of that? Asking why he didn't do that is like asking why Sheik didn't just use the Ocarina to send him back to before he ever touched the Master Sword (as you believe she later did) rather than having him save Hyrule. As this question exists in your theory as well, it does nothing to hurt the alternative I'm offering.

Edited by BourgeoisJerry, 10 May 2007 - 12:26 AM.

[Vertiboy]

What still doesn't fit, BourgeoisJerry, are the chains. Even if the Sages would be capable of subduing Ganondorf, a man that they know has the Triforce of Power, that still doesn't explain why they would seal him in mere chains. Also, it still doesn't explain the "OMFG WTF?!?!" look that the Sages have when Ganondorf breaks free of the chains. The fact that they sealed him in chains and that they seemed surprised when he broke free of them with the ToP seems to imply that the Sages had no clue he possessed the ToP. All of this indirect evidence adds up.

Besides, what some people are looking for is a direct quote that says, "We Sages did not know that Ganondorf possessed the Triforce of Power until that moment during his execution." If everything was spelled out, I would be insulted. It would be as if the writers assumed that they were writing for idiots. If that kind of quote is the kind of quote you want, then no, I cannot provide it, and I lose the debate. The fact of the matter is that whether someone debating realizes it or not, they know it isn't that simple. They know that the evidence isn't going to jump out at them. They know that they will have to read in between the lines to see what is implied.

[Duke Serkol]

like asking why Sheik didn't just use the Ocarina to send him back to before he ever touched the Master Sword (as you believe she later did) rather than having him save Hyrule.

Wouldn't work. When Sheik Zelda sends Link back with the Ocarina the changes he does result in another timeline, so the original future one would still be screwed.

[FDL]

Whether Link warns Hyrule Castle about a second attack or not, Ganondorf still has the Triforce of Power. He is still capable of taking over Hyrule.

I doubt that Sages could do much. They haven't displayed the abilities to stop him at full power before. Let's take a look, shall we?

In ALttP, Agahnim successfully kidnaps and teleports all of the maidens to the Dark World.

In OoT, Ganondorf's evil stops the Sages from hearing their call.

In TWW's backstory, Ganondorf at least kills (or is responsible for) the deaths of Laruto and Fado, both of which are Sages.

In FSA, Ganondorf, Vaati, and/or Dark Link kidnap the maidens.

In TP, Ganondorf kills the Water Sage. The other Sages are afraid of him since he has the power of the gods. They don't trap him with a magic spell. They don't kill him with their magic. They open the portal to the Twilight Realm to seal him away, instead of using their powers to execute him as planned. Let it be noted that before they found out that he had the Triforce of Power, they intended on executing him. After they found out that he had it, they were afraid and merely tried to seal him.

All throughout Zelda history, the Sages are pwnt by Ganon and his men. I doubt that 6 old men would be able to help capture Ganondorf.

Good point, but the circumstances are different. First of all, according to OoT even by the time Link appeared in the future Ganondorf did not have control over the ToP. Zelda herself says he couldn't control the power of the gods. So what makes you think he could back then? I'd say that's one reason why they're able to subdue Ganondorf, just as Link defeats Ganondorf the Evil King in the future. I say t's similar circumstances because the game itself alludes to this. Ganondorf reviving(pupil-less no less) with the Triforce of Power shining on his hand happened before, at the end of OoT. The game even plays the music from that point in the game. Both times Ganondorf is believed to be killed and is then revived by the ToP.

The other reason why they're able to subdue him is given in TP. He was arrogant and was thus captured.

Besides, there is also the problem with the chains. If the Sages knew that he had the power of the gods (which Link should have told them), why would they restrain him with chains? Would you tie up the Rock with shoelaces? No. Would you tie up a man with the power of the gods with chains? No.

Because they knew it didn't have full control over it, just as he didn't have full control over it in OoT. However, they didn't know it would revive him. Alternately, they weren't aware he had it because he didn;t have enough control over it to prove it.

If we want to get into 'what if' debating, though, if it came down to it, Ganondorf probably could defeat the entire Hylian army alone. All he has to do is turn into Ganon, and he is undefeatable unless one of the soldiers just happen to be carrying a Master Sword.

In OoT he doesn't turn into Ganon until the ToP revives him from near death. He probably couldn't become that form at will, either, because he didn't at the top of the tower at the end of OoT, which would have been tactically advantageous.

Either way, Sheik says that Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to come to power in the adult timeline. That is a fact. As you have said, we don't know exactly how he did it (though if OoT=IW, that would give us some insight). All that matters is that if he used the ToP to conquer Hyrule in one timeline, he would certainly use it in another.

He could, but someone could also prevent it. Look at OoT, Impa says the castle surrendered a short time later. It wasn't some huge war and Hyrule Castle apparently surrendered pretty easily.

I was saying that in the context that the split timeline didn't exist (in the opinion of some) back when OoT came out.

Besides, how would closing a door influence Link's free will (if there is such a thing in the Zelda universe)? Are you suggesting that some kind of higher power would prevent Link from entering Hyrule Castle and telling Zelda that the future might suck if they don't do something? Link would walk to Hyrule Castle, get close to the courtyard, then hit some kind of invisible wall simply because he hasn't closed a door yet?

Someone made a good point here so I'll just say the same thing. Why didn't Sheik send him back before if that was all it took?

What still doesn't fit, BourgeoisJerry, are the chains. Even if the Sages would be capable of subduing Ganondorf, a man that they know has the Triforce of Power, that still doesn't explain why they would seal him in mere chains. Also, it still doesn't explain the "OMFG WTF?!?!" look that the Sages have when Ganondorf breaks free of the chains. The fact that they sealed him in chains and that they seemed surprised when he broke free of them with the ToP seems to imply that the Sages had no clue he possessed the ToP. All of this indirect evidence adds up.

Or, they didn't know it would revive him as Zelda, leader of the Sages, did not know in OoT. But it's also possible that they didn't know he had it. Either one fits.

Besides, what some people are looking for is a direct quote that says, "We Sages did not know that Ganondorf possessed the Triforce of Power until that moment during his execution." If everything was spelled out, I would be insulted. It would be as if the writers assumed that they were writing for idiots. If that kind of quote is the kind of quote you want, then no, I cannot provide it, and I lose the debate. The fact of the matter is that whether someone debating realizes it or not, they know it isn't that simple. They know that the evidence isn't going to jump out at them. They know that they will have to read in between the lines to see what is implied.

I'm not saying there needs to be a quote like that, I'm saying the quotes we do have are open to interpretation. However, I've yet to see you or anyone interpret the quote that they underestimated Ganondorf in any way that makes sense and fits your theory. I mean, hpw did they underestimate him in your interpretation? I mean, how were they to know he was magically going to be given the ToP? It doesn't add up.

[Vertiboy]

Good point, but the circumstances are different. First of all, according to OoT even by the time Link appeared in the future Ganondorf did not have control over the ToP. Zelda herself says he couldn't control the power of the gods. So what makes you think he could back then? I'd say that's one reason why they're able to subdue Ganondorf, just as Link defeats Ganondorf the Evil King in the future. I say t's similar circumstances because the game itself alludes to this. Ganondorf reviving(pupil-less no less) with the Triforce of Power shining on his hand happened before, at the end of OoT. The game even plays the music from that point in the game. Both times Ganondorf is believed to be killed and is then revived by the ToP.

The other reason why they're able to subdue him is given in TP. He was arrogant and was thus captured.

Because they knew it didn't have full control over it, just as he didn't have full control over it in OoT. However, they didn't know it would revive him. Alternately, they weren't aware he had it because he didn;t have enough control over it to prove it.

You failed to read the rest of that particular quote. It is very important to know when that was said.

Link....!

Ganondorf...pitiful man...
Without a strong, righteous mind,
he could not control the power of
the gods...and...

Link, listen to me!
This tower will collapse soon!
With his last breath, Ganondorf is
trying to crush us in the ruins of
the tower! We need to hurry and
escape!

Pay attention to the last paragraph. She says that he could not control the power of the gods after he is aware that he has it. Earlier, she said as Sheik that Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to take control of Hyrule. How can he use it to take control of Hyrule if he could not control it's power? Besides, could not control =/= could not use. He was very aware that he had the Triforce of Power, and he used it's power, well before Zelda said that particular quote.

Just in case you don't believe that it was the ToP that allowed Ganondorf to take control of Hyrule...

The Triforce separated into three
parts. Only the Triforce of Power
remained in Ganondorf's hand.

The strength of the Triforce of
Power enabled him to become a
mighty, evil king, but his dark
ambitions were not satisfied.

Beyond that, there is nothing in OoT that says Ganondorf wasn't aware that he had or could not use the ToP when he first got it.

Someone made a good point here so I'll just say the same thing. Why didn't Sheik send him back before if that was all it took?

Well, that's just it. That particular choice of Zelda's seems to suggest that the adult timeline continued to exist after Link returned, even as far back in the late '90s, when the game was released. I think that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that ALttP followed OoT in the adult timeline, and the child timeline merely existed for Link to regain his childhood, without any games following in that timeline.

The problem is, though, many of the people I'm debating with do not think that the split timeline existed back when OoT was released. I am not saying that they are wrong. I can't know for sure, either. It is just the fact that believing that no split timeline existed back in the late '90s and that Link arrived after the Triforce had split are two contradicting beliefs. If, back then, Link could have just planted the MS to go back to his childhood, pull a few strings to have Ganondorf executed, and erase (not split because it supposedly didn't exist) the adult timeline, why didn't he?

Or, they didn't know it would revive him as Zelda, leader of the Sages, did not know in OoT. But it's also possible that they didn't know he had it. Either one fits.

Let me get this straight. Link would come back to the future, tell Zelda that Ganondorf should be executed, but he would leave out the fact that Ganondorf had the ToP? What? That seems like an important detail.

Then after the attempted execution, the Sages went up to Link and said, "Hey, he had the Triforce of Power!" Link then says, "Oh, yeah! I know. I just forgot to tell Zelda about that."

I think that they didn't know he had it, but that is because they wouldn't suspect that he has a reason to have it, meaning he hasn't entered the Sacred Realm.

I'm not saying there needs to be a quote like that, I'm saying the quotes we do have are open to interpretation. However, I've yet to see you or anyone interpret the quote that they underestimated Ganondorf in any way that makes sense and fits your theory. I mean, hpw did they underestimate him in your interpretation? I mean, how were they to know he was magically going to be given the ToP? It doesn't add up.

Sages underestimated Ganondorf = They did not know he was so powerful = They did not know that he had the Triforce of Power

That's also it. They didn't know that he would magically be given the Triforce of Power. That is why they underestimated him. They didn't suspect that he had that kind of power because he never entered the Sacred Realm in the first place to get that kind of power.


Also, I have found some evidence that suggest that the Sages would not be able to subdue Ganondorf if he has the Triforce of Power.

In OoT, after Link awakens all of the Sages, do they automatically go to Ganon's Castle and seal him away? No. After Link gets to the top of the castle, he fights and weakens Ganondorf. When he turns into Ganon, before the Sages can seal him away, Link must fight him with the Master Sword to weaken him. If the Sages were capable of sealing or subduing Ganondorf without the aid of the MS, then they would have done so here. Link wouldn't have to fight Ganon. The Sages could come in and say, "Pwnt!!!!" and seal him in the SR. That didn't happen, though. Ganon needed to be weakened with the MS first.

That would logically apply to the child timeline. If Ganondorf was aware that he had the ToP, the Sages couldn't subdue him unless he was weakened. They couldn't weaken him without the MS. Link is the only person who can pull the MS. Pulling the MS again would result in Link being asleep for 7 years again, and the events of the adult timeline would repeat.

The Sages could not subdue Ganondorf in the theoretical scenario you have set up.

[FDL]

Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to take control of Hyrule. How can he use it to take control of Hyrule if he could not control it's power? Besides, could not control =/= could not use. He was very aware that he had the Triforce of Power, and he used it's power, well before Zelda said that particular quote.

Beyond that, there is nothing in OoT that says Ganondorf wasn't aware that he had or could not use the ToP when he first got it.

I don't mean that he can't control it at all, I mean that he can't use it to instantly destroy all who oppose him as you say. Just look at Link. He has the ToC for a long while but it doesn't instantly increase his powers manyfold.

Well, that's just it. That particular choice of Zelda's seems to suggest that the adult timeline continued to exist after Link returned, even as far back in the late '90s, when the game was released. I think that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that ALttP followed OoT in the adult timeline, and the child timeline merely existed for Link to regain his childhood, without any games following in that timeline.

The problem is, though, many of the people I'm debating with do not think that the split timeline existed back when OoT was released. I am not saying that they are wrong. I can't know for sure, either. It is just the fact that believing that no split timeline existed back in the late '90s and that Link arrived after the Triforce had split are two contradicting beliefs. If, back then, Link could have just planted the MS to go back to his childhood, pull a few strings to have Ganondorf executed, and erase (not split because it supposedly didn't exist) the adult timeline, why didn't he?

Then that's not really an argument against what we're debating, I think, so whatever.

Let me get this straight. Link would come back to the future, tell Zelda that Ganondorf should be executed, but he would leave out the fact that Ganondorf had the ToP? What? That seems like an important detail.

Then after the attempted execution, the Sages went up to Link and said, "Hey, he had the Triforce of Power!" Link then says, "Oh, yeah! I know. I just forgot to tell Zelda about that."

I think that they didn't know he had it, but that is because they wouldn't suspect that he has a reason to have it, meaning he hasn't entered the Sacred Realm.

Well, to be honest, that's just one of the possible ways it happened. But it's not out of the realm of possibilities. However, I'm more inclined to believe they did know and they just believed nothing would happen.

Sages underestimated Ganondorf = They did not know he was so powerful = They did not know that he had the Triforce of Power

That's also it. They didn't know that he would magically be given the Triforce of Power. That is why they underestimated him. They didn't suspect that he had that kind of power because he never entered the Sacred Realm in the first place to get that kind of power.

No offense, but that's kinda stupid. How the hell were they supposed to know he was going to randomly be given the ToP? That's not overestimating their power because they would have won if it wasn't for some divine intervention. Sorry, but that makes little sense.

Also, I have found some evidence that suggest that the Sages would not be able to subdue Ganondorf if he has the Triforce of Power.

In OoT, after Link awakens all of the Sages, do they automatically go to Ganon's Castle and seal him away? No. After Link gets to the top of the castle, he fights and weakens Ganondorf. When he turns into Ganon, before the Sages can seal him away, Link must fight him with the Master Sword to weaken him. If the Sages were capable of sealing or subduing Ganondorf without the aid of the MS, then they would have done so here. Link wouldn't have to fight Ganon. The Sages could come in and say, "Pwnt!!!!" and seal him in the SR. That didn't happen, though. Ganon needed to be weakened with the MS first.

Good point, but the circumstances and mechanics of everything really don't make a comparison. I mean, in one case they had to seal him in a specific place and had to do so while he was not weakened but in the other he's been captured and they're trying to execute him. Oh yeah, and in one case there are seven and in the other only six.

That would logically apply to the child timeline. If Ganondorf was aware that he had the ToP, the Sages couldn't subdue him unless he was weakened. They couldn't weaken him without the MS. Link is the only person who can pull the MS. Pulling the MS again would result in Link being asleep for 7 years again, and the events of the adult timeline would repeat.

The Sages could not subdue Ganondorf in the theoretical scenario you have set up.

If they can stab him in the chest in such a way that he's still wounded 100 years later I think they temporarily subdue him. Again, look at the circumstances behind his capture. They themselves say that they were able to subdue him because he was blind to danger, implying that they had to use their wits and his arrogance to his advantage. They never say they were stronger than him, and the only time they ever reference their abilities they say that they overestimated their own abilities. Not once is it said they were stronger.

[Vertiboy]

I don't mean that he can't control it at all, I mean that he can't use it to instantly destroy all who oppose him as you say. Just look at Link. He has the ToC for a long while but it doesn't instantly increase his powers manyfold.

Basically, he can't use it's full power the instant he has it? There is some kind of time release of power?

Look, we are basically making up the Zelda canon as we go along here. The only reason you are saying that he can't instantly use it's full power is because it fits the theory. The evidence should make the theory, not the other way around.

Well, to be honest, that's just one of the possible ways it happened. But it's not out of the realm of possibilities. However, I'm more inclined to believe they did know and they just believed nothing would happen.

Again, I ask, what logical reason would the Sages have for not knowing? Did Link forget to tell Zelda that Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power? Did Zelda forget to tell the King/Sages/whoever decided he should be executed that he had the ToP? We are once again dealing with what is rational and what is irrational. It is irrational to think that the Sages would have no clue that Ganondorf has the ToP if he entered the Sacred Realm to obtain it.

No offense, but that's kinda stupid. How were they supposed to know he was going to randomly be given the ToP? That's not overestimating their power because they would have won if it wasn't for some divine intervention. Sorry, but that makes little sense.

Wait, you said that the quote was that they underestimated Ganondorf. Was it that, or did they overestimate their own ability. I remember the latter, now that I think about it.

They overestimated their own ability. = They thought that they were strong enough to beat Ganondorf.

You are overthinking this. They thought that they were strong enough to beat Ganondorf, but they were not. That is what the quote means. They don't have to know that he would randomly get the ToP. That is why they overestimated their abilities. They didn't know that he had it. Yes, I understand that they would have one if he didn't have the ToP. The fact of the matter is, though, that's not what happened. He did have the ToP. They did not execute him. It's that simple.

Good point, but the circumstances and mechanics of everything really don't make a comparison. I mean, in one case they had to seal him in a specific place and had to do so while he was not weakened but in the other he's been captured and they're trying to execute him. Oh yeah, and in one case there are seven and in the other only six.

I am talking about Ganondorf's arrest in the child timeline. It is hard to subdue one with the power of the gods in the Zelda universe. Ganondorf was stronger in the child timeline because he didn't just have the poo beat out of him with the Master Sword. Ganon was weak because Link pwnt him with the MS. It took 7 Sages to seal Ganon in the SR. There are 7 Sages present in the child timeline during Ganondorf's arrest, and one of them is a child.

Pwnt Ganon by MS + 7 Sages = Sealed

Ganondorf at full power + 7 Sages (one is a child) = ????

They had to seal him in a specific place in the adult timeline. Big deal. It is the kind of idea that makes no difference. You are deliberately splitting hairs, which you know isn't proving anything.

The point is that Ganon had to be weakened with the MS in order to be subdued, so it would be pretty much impossible in the child timeline if Ganondorf is aware that he has the ToP.

If they can stab him in the chest in such a way that he's still wounded 100 years later I think they temporarily subdue him. Again, look at the circumstances behind his capture. They themselves say that they were able to subdue him because he was blind to danger, implying that they had to use their wits and his arrogance to his advantage. They never say they were stronger than him, and the only time they ever reference their abilities they say that they overestimated their own abilities. Not once is it said they were stronger.

He probably didn't have the ToP when he stabbed him. If he had it earlier, he would probably use it to escape and take over Hyrule again. The cycle starts again. Hyrule loses. It makes the most sense for him to at least be aware that he has it during the execution scene.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Basically, he can't use it's full power the instant he has it? There is some kind of time release of power?

Look, we are basically making up the Zelda canon as we go along here. The only reason you are saying that he can't instantly use it's full power is because it fits the theory. The evidence should make the theory, not the other way around.

Ganondorf not having complete control over the Triforce of Power isn't made up. it gives him power, but he doesn't have complete control of it. That's pretty much what Zelda says, and that isn't made up. If we accept what Zelda said as canon, it follows that seven years earlier he was even less adept with that power, and he was also arrogant enough to fall for a trap and end up in chains (despite being powerful enough to beat the Sages in a fair fight.) The Sages, despite being able to subdue him thanks to his arrogance and their cunning, are not powerful enough to kill him and the rest unfolds as we see.

Again, I ask, what logical reason would the Sages have for not knowing? Did Link forget to tell Zelda that Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power? Did Zelda forget to tell the King/Sages/whoever decided he should be executed that he had the ToP? We are once again dealing with what is rational and what is irrational. It is irrational to think that the Sages would have no clue that Ganondorf has the ToP if he entered the Sacred Realm to obtain it.

Did you even read what you were replying to? "However, I'm more inclined to believe they did know and they just believed nothing would happen." He was saying that they overestimated their abilities and thought they could kill Ganondorf despite having the Triforce of Power, not that the Sages didn't know Ganondorf had the Triforce of Power.

Wait, you said that the quote was that they underestimated Ganondorf. Was it that, or did they overestimate their own ability. I remember the latter, now that I think about it.

They overestimated their own ability. = They thought that they were strong enough to beat Ganondorf.

You are overthinking this. They thought that they were strong enough to beat Ganondorf, but they were not. That is what the quote means. They don't have to know that he would randomly get the ToP. That is why they overestimated their abilities. They didn't know that he had it. Yes, I understand that they would have one if he didn't have the ToP. The fact of the matter is, though, that's not what happened. He did have the ToP. They did not execute him. It's that simple.

Is that so? Let's take a moment to discuss a hypothetical situation (please note that I'm not being patronizing or anything like that if that's the way you read this.) Say you're a bully who decides to beat up this kid named... Chuck. Actually, let's say you're in a gang of six bullies that decide to beat up Chuck. Anyway, when you try to beat up Chuck he whips out a metal bat and starts beating you all into submission. You had no idea he had the bat, so did you really overestimate your abilities? In my opinion, no. The six of you clearly would have been able to beat him up if he hadn't had that bat, but since he did you all got beat up. Now if you knew Chuck had the bat and still tried to beat him up, then we might say you overestimated your abilities.

I am talking about Ganondorf's arrest in the child timeline. It is hard to subdue one with the power of the gods in the Zelda universe. Ganondorf was stronger in the child timeline because he didn't just have the poo beat out of him with the Master Sword. Ganon was weak because Link pwnt him with the MS. It took 7 Sages to seal Ganon in the SR. There are 7 Sages present in the child timeline during Ganondorf's arrest, and one of them is a child.

Pwnt Ganon by MS + 7 Sages = Sealed

Ganondorf at full power + 7 Sages (one is a child) = ????

They had to seal him in a specific place in the adult timeline. Big deal. It is the kind of idea that makes no difference. You are deliberately splitting hairs, which you know isn't proving anything.

The point is that Ganon had to be weakened with the MS in order to be subdued, so it would be pretty much impossible in the child timeline if Ganondorf is aware that he has the ToP.

Being aware he has the Triforce of Power may make him more powerful, but it will also make him more arrogant. And we're not saying the Sages had enough power to do what they did in the adult timeline, we're simply saying that he walked into a trap which got him chained up, then the Triforce helped him escape his chains and kill one of them. We're only saying that the Sages had the power (their wisdom and his arrogance helped) to temporarily subdue him. He wasn't defeated, just temporarily captured.

He probably didn't have the ToP when he stabbed him. If he had it earlier, he would probably use it to escape and take over Hyrule again. The cycle starts again. Hyrule loses. It makes the most sense for him to at least be aware that he has it during the execution scene.

Or he just wasn't able to draw enough power from the Triforce to escape before desperation kicked in.

[Raien]

Has anyone looked at the possibility that Zelda was referring to the WHOLE Triforce when she said that Ganondorf could not control it without a strong, righteous mind (aka, a balanced heart)?

[FDL]

Basically, he can't use it's full power the instant he has it? There is some kind of time release of power?

No, he has to figure out how to, or have a "righteous mind" or whatever.

Look, we are basically making up the Zelda canon as we go along here. The only reason you are saying that he can't instantly use it's full power is because it fits the theory. The evidence should make the theory, not the other way around.

Evidence says he wouldn't immediately have it's power. Nothing ever says the Triforce crests immediately do something like that, and Link's situation proves it. It may amplify your power but it doesn't neccesarily do it the way you say, which is immediately allow it's bearer it's full power. Again, Link proves this.

Again, I ask, what logical reason would the Sages have for not knowing? Did Link forget to tell Zelda that Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power? Did Zelda forget to tell the King/Sages/whoever decided he should be executed that he had the ToP? We are once again dealing with what is rational and what is irrational. It is irrational to think that the Sages would have no clue that Ganondorf has the ToP if he entered the Sacred Realm to obtain it.

I don't know what you want me to say. You really aren't proving anything with this point.

Wait, you said that the quote was that they underestimated Ganondorf. Was it that, or did they overestimate their own ability. I remember the latter, now that I think about it.

They overestimated their own ability. = They thought that they were strong enough to beat Ganondorf.

You are overthinking this. They thought that they were strong enough to beat Ganondorf, but they were not. That is what the quote means. They don't have to know that he would randomly get the ToP. That is why they overestimated their abilities. They didn't know that he had it. Yes, I understand that they would have one if he didn't have the ToP. The fact of the matter is, though, that's not what happened. He did have the ToP. They did not execute him. It's that simple.

Um, you said the gods gave it to Ganondorf through divine intervention at that time. If he's given it then, that's not an underestimation and these whacked out explanations are overthinking it more than I am. Divine intervention=/=under/overestimation, no matter how you slice it. Let me give an example. Two armies are battling one another, let's call them Green and Red. Green has destroyed all but three of Red's soldiers. Suddenly, lightning comes down and destroys the entire Green Army. They were not overestimating their strength at all. Same deal here.

I am talking about Ganondorf's arrest in the child timeline. It is hard to subdue one with the power of the gods in the Zelda universe. Ganondorf was stronger in the child timeline because he didn't just have the poo beat out of him with the Master Sword. Ganon was weak because Link pwnt him with the MS. It took 7 Sages to seal Ganon in the SR. There are 7 Sages present in the child timeline during Ganondorf's arrest, and one of them is a child.

Okay, then you're arguing that he got it at that time. See above for some argument against that.

Pwnt Ganon by MS + 7 Sages = Sealed

Ganondorf at full power + 7 Sages (one is a child) = ????

They had to seal him in a specific place in the adult timeline. Big deal. It is the kind of idea that makes no difference. You are deliberately splitting hairs, which you know isn't proving anything.

No, you're generalizing far too much. There are few similarities between the sealing and the execution, aside from the fact that sages are involved. And Zelda existing is waaayyyy different than Zelda being recognized as a sage and leading the others. The fact that she exists in the child timeline doesn;t mean she can lead them. And then there's the fact that the sages are in the SR in OoT, and CANNOT LEAVE. Pretty much every sage tells Link this in OoT.

The point is that Ganon had to be weakened with the MS in order to be subdued, so it would be pretty much impossible in the child timeline if Ganondorf is aware that he has the ToP.

See above.

He probably didn't have the ToP when he stabbed him. If he had it earlier, he would probably use it to escape and take over Hyrule again. The cycle starts again. Hyrule loses. It makes the most sense for him to at least be aware that he has it during the execution scene.

Being aware that you have something doesn't mean you can use it. I mean, Link has the ToC and is aware he has it and yet he still appears to be surprised when it does something for him like heals him towards the end of OoT.