254 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

To LionHarted, since Link wasn't in the Temple of Time when Zelda played the Ocarina, it can be argued that Zelda both teleported Link to the Temple of Time AND sent Link back to the past. You are right that it is silly when she is playing Zelda's Lullaby though. Perhaps the event is just meant to be metaphorical of their friendship, since that is what the song symbolises for the most part.

It's entirely possible that, upon "closing the Door between times", he would be able to lay the Master Sword to rest within the Door of Time without actually traveling backwards in time as a result. Then, once his tasks were done, Zelda could have used the Ocarina to send him back in time.

Quite frankly, the only thing that matters is that the transition between the Zelda-Link scene and the scene in the Temple of Time does not match up. Something happened in between those two scenes either way--my explanation is as good as any other.

[Arturo]

Have you not thought that Zelda could send Link back in Time and then Link would return the Master Sword to the Pedestal of Time and close the Door of Time?

Edited by Arturo, 26 October 2006 - 12:38 PM.

[LionHarted]

Have you not thought that Zelda could send Link back in Time and then Link would return the Master Sword to the Pedestal of Time and close the Door of Time?

We see the scene that shows Link arriving in the past, and the sword is already there.

[Arturo]

Zelda tells him to return the Sword and close the Door of Time. The Door is still open, and if I recall correctly, Link still has his hands on the sword.

[LionHarted]

Zelda tells him to return the Sword and close the Door of Time. The Door is still open, and if I recall correctly, Link still has his hands on the sword.

You do not remember correctly.

[Arturo]

My mistake...

[Fyxe]

Oh big whoop, so the sword is already still there when Link returns. An oversight. Zelda just making clear that he should do both things. Zelda has never travelled in time, she may not be sure of the mechanics of where the sword will be as soon as Link appears. She's just listing the two things he has to do. Making it clear that he has to *leave* the sword there for the pathway between times to be closed. If she didn't make the Master Sword it would mean that only closing the door is all that is needed - this is not the case.

She says that he has to do it AFTER she has said she will send him back in time.
The Door of Time is still open.

LionHarted, you have given absolutely ZERO explaination for why and how Zelda would teleport Link to the Temple of Time first. It's nonsense. Like I said, it's just down the road. And surely, if he was to teleport to the Temple of Time, he would play the Prelude of Light, for heck's sake.

Also, she SAYS she will send him back using the Ocarina of Time. It would make no sense whatsoever, ever ever ever that she would then teleport him and not send him back in time like she just said.

It's madness. Stop this now before I start killing people.

[LionHarted]

Oh big whoop, so the sword is already still there when Link returns. An oversight. Zelda just making clear that he should do both things.

Now you're grasping for straws. Or, rather, conjuring them out of thin air. How in the world could Zelda possibly do what you have just said she does?

LionHarted, you have given absolutely ZERO explaination for why and how Zelda would teleport Link to the Temple of Time first. It's nonsense. Like I said, it's just down the road.

They're in the freaking SKY.

As for the requested explanation:
"Because we see the "warping light" when Zelda plays the Ocarina in the scene between her and Link, we can deduce that what Zelda did in that scene has a warping effect similar to what we see after the bosses. I'm guessing Link is warped to the Temple of Time to carry out Zelda's orders. He first closed the Door of Time (he's still in the future--the Door will be closed from this point forward), then, while he was inside it (still in the future), he replaces the Master Sword. Then Zelda uses her power as a Sage, to return him to his "original time", before he ever pulled the Master Sword.

This turns out to be more purposeful in explaining why the Door had to be closed. If the Door is closed by Link at a point after Ganon is defeated, the "road between times" is now closed, and the events of OoT cannot be tampered with from that point forward--period.

Also, she SAYS she will send him back using the Ocarina of Time. It would make no sense whatsoever, ever ever ever that she would then teleport him and not send him back in time like she just said.

Fine. She does send him back--just not in that scene. She sends him to complete her orders first, then sends him to his original time, so he can go home and relive his life.

Edited by LionHarted, 26 October 2006 - 05:44 PM.

[Fyxe]

Now you're grasping for straws. Or, rather, conjuring them out of thin air. How in the world could Zelda possibly do what you have just said she does?

Firstly, grasping for straws. My god. You're one to talk.

Secondly, you clearly did not read what I said correctly, because your response makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm going to ignore the rest of your post (because I can't be bothered to have a pointless argument, and you have given no acceptable refute to any of the points I have raised) but I will say - explain why they're standing in the sky if you think the visuals are more important than the bloody dialogue.

[Raien]

Isn't it just easier to say the Zelda performed both teleportation and time travel in that same melody? Is it really impossible for that to occur?

[LionHarted]

Isn't it just easier to say the Zelda performed both teleportation and time travel in that same melody? Is it really impossible for that to occur?

Yes. If Link vanishes straightaway after that scene, then the Master Sword disappeared with him. That makes TWW impossible.

[Raien]

Yes. If Link vanishes straightaway after that scene, then the Master Sword disappeared with him. That makes TWW impossible.

Ahh.. I'm seeing your point now. Well... maybe we shouldn't look at OoT's ending at all in a literal sense. It is quite obvious from what is being said and done that not many of the important details from the game are actually being taken into account.

-Zelda says she will send Link back in time before he can place the Master Sword in the future.
-Zelda apparently sends Link back in time using the Zelda's Lullaby, not the Song of Time.
-(single timeline interpretation) The event of meeting Zelda is a peaceful reunion but apparently has no effect on the script of events in the future.

Edited by jhurvid, 26 October 2006 - 07:02 PM.

[LionHarted]

Zelda says she will send Link back in time before he can place the Master Sword in the future.

But it is unknown whether she actually sent him before he could fulfill her request. We see her play the song that teleports him away, but we do not see whether or not this leads directly into the scene in the Temple of Time. We see that the Temple of Time scene shows him arriving back in the past with the Master Sword in the Pedestal, so he could not have placed it there after returning to the past (and therefore could not have fulfilled Zelda's request in the past, either).

[Arturo]

There is a small detail you have overlooked, Lionhated:

-The Door of Time cannot be closed from the inside. And since Link has to return the sword, he cannot close it before he returns the sword. and if he returns the sword, he should go to the past, and then he wouldn't be sent by Zelda, but by the Sword. And we know the way of time traveling using Zelda's powers and the Master Sword is different: while with the second, Link doesn't have the ToC, with the first he does.

[LionHarted]

The Door of Time cannot be closed from the inside.

How do you know?

if he returns the sword, he should go to the past, and then he wouldn't be sent by Zelda, but by the Sword

If the "door between times is closed", returning the sword should have no effect.

And we know the way of time traveling using Zelda's powers and the Master Sword is different: while with the second, Link doesn't have the ToC, with the first he does.

No, actually, we don't know whether Link would have had the ToC in the past with the Master Sword method. We don't see any direct differences in the time travel itself except for the apparent point in time that is Link's destination--presumably before he pulls the Master Sword. He still grows younger as he goes back in time, he still appears in the Temple of Time, a column of blue light still heralds his coming.

This is why I prefer to leave the time travel mechanics alone--we expect that the time travel should be different, but, when he arrives back in the Temple of Time, we don't see any visible differences, aside from the fact that he's not got his hands on the sword (which, again, is more likely due to the fact that he's not just been sent to the last point he touched it than anything else).

So either a split timeline or a single timeline can proceed from OoT, neither of which is directly or exclusively evidenced from anything we see in game, since what we see in-game is either:

1) so limited that we don't get a complete picture of what has happened;
2) so similar to what we've seen throughout the rest of the game that it is difficult, nigh, impossible, to tell whether there's a notable difference in the time travel at the end, other than the point of destination

They're both possible, both just as likely, but cannot both be intended by the creators. And here is where I take my leave from the single-split argument once again.

[Arturo]

The Door of Time must be opened from outside because outside are the Spiritual Stones. If one magically closed the door it would open again because the Spiritual Stones are there. The stones must be picked up to close the door.

[LionHarted]

The Door of Time must be opened from outside because outside are the Spiritual Stones. If one magically closed the door it would open again because the Spiritual Stones are there. The stones must be picked up to close the door.

I'm sorry, but neither you nor I know what is necessary to close the Door of Time--only how to open it.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yes. If Link vanishes straightaway after that scene, then the Master Sword disappeared with him. That makes TWW impossible.

No one said the sword had to teleport with him.

I'm sorry, but neither you nor I know what is necessary to close the Door of Time--only how to open it.

I would assume simply the exact opposite if what was done to open it.

[LionHarted]

No one said the sword had to teleport with him.

Then how does he put it back in the past?

I would assume simply the exact opposite if what was done to open it.

You would assume.

[Raien]

Then how does he put it back in the past?

He puts the Master Sword back in the future. He closes the Door of Time in the past.

[LionHarted]

He closes the Door of Time in the past.

Show me? =/

[Raien]

Show me? =/

Well, it's open in the past after Zelda has sent Link back in time, but it is closed when Link originally opens the Door of Time.

Although how it opens in the first place is the next mystery... lol.

Edited by jhurvid, 28 October 2006 - 09:16 AM.

[LionHarted]

Well, it's open in the past after Zelda has sent Link back in time, but it is closed when Link originally opens the Door of Time.

Show me that Link closes it again in the past, I mean.

[MikePetersSucks]

Play like, the game and stuff?

You would assume.

Well there's no reason for the Door of Time to work any differently. And you're one to talk about assumptions.

[Fyxe]

Show me that Link closes it again in the past, I mean.

He would because he was TOLD to. We don't need to see it because it's unnecessary.

[LionHarted]

He would because he was TOLD to. We don't need to see it because it's unnecessary.

I can say the same with respect to my idea that he closes it in the future.

[Fyxe]

Except that wasn't implied by the dialogue, LionHarted, and you know it.

[LionHarted]

Except that wasn't implied by the dialogue, LionHarted, and you know it.

"I can return you to your original time with it" implies only that, and nothing else. Any additional conclusions are inferential.

[Raien]

The answer to this question lies in TP. If the Door of Time is closed in TP then we know it was closed at the end of OoT, which means that Link closed it in the future.

[Fyxe]

"I can return you to your original time with it" implies only that, and nothing else.

My god. I'm ending this rediculous discussion now. You keep quoting segments of the dialogue and ignore the whole thing.

Link,
give the Ocarina to me...
As a Sage, I can return you
to your original time with it.

Result? Zelda can send Link back to his original time USING THE OCARINA OF TIME.

If she had meant 'I can return you to the Temple of Time' she would of said that. Contrast it with what Shiek says earlier in the game.

If you want to return to your
original time, return the Master
Sword to the Pedestal of Time.

See how she's talking about two *different things*?

Now, go home, Link.
Regain your lost time!
Home...
where you are supposed to be...
the way you are supposed to be...

She says this *immediately* after that previous line about the Ocarina. Straight afterwards, Link is warped away, looking a bit like he doesn't really want to go.

LionHarted, there are hundreds of reasons why it's not a teleport to anywhere else, and here are a few.

1: Why say goodbye where they were and not after they've returned to the Temple of Time?

2: Why doesn't she play the Prelude of Light?

3: Why would she say she can return him to his original time with the Ocarina then when we immediately see Link being transported by the Ocarina of Time, we're meant to think he *wasn't* sent back to his original time?

4: The next we see of Link after that scene is appearing in the past. That's it. Nothing else happens.

Done. DONE. jhurvid, I would please ask you to stop arguing with him and keep it to PMs or something, because this particular discussion really is over, LionHarted's argument avoids logic.

Edited by Fyxe, 28 October 2006 - 05:33 PM.