254 replies to this topic

[Arturo]

Amen.

Really, I don't have nothing more to add. This is one of those rare times when I agree wholeheartedly with you

Edited by Arturo, 28 October 2006 - 05:40 PM.

[LionHarted]

1: Why say goodbye where they were and not after they've returned to the Temple of Time?

She says goodbye after he disappears.

2: Why doesn't she play the Prelude of Light?

All we hear in that scene is Zelda's theme song, looped over and over again, which leads into the ending theme. We quite frankly can't know what song she played.

3: Why would she say she can return him to his original time with the Ocarina then when we immediately see Link being transported by the Ocarina of Time, we're meant to think he *wasn't* sent back to his original time?

She can. She will. He has to complete the tasks she set before him first.

4: The next we see of Link after that scene is appearing in the past. That's it. Nothing else happens.

So he doesn't replace the Master Sword... ever? That would be a direct contradiction of canon, right there.

Edited by LionHarted, 28 October 2006 - 06:01 PM.

[Arturo]

All we hear in that scene is Zelda's theme song, looped over and over again, which leads into the ending theme. We quite frankly can't know what song she played.

We hear that song, but PLAYED BY AN OCARINA, not as normally.

Frankly it's ridiculous to claim she doesn't play Zelda's Lullaby.

She can. She will. He has to complete the tasks she set before him first.

They are completed in the past: the Door of Time is already open, so he can close it.

[Hero of Legend]

Zero Mission is a prequel to Metroid.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 28 October 2006 - 06:08 PM.

[Fyxe]

She says goodbye after he disappears.

You completely missed my point by a mile. The whole conversation is a goodbye. Why not go to the Temple of Time with him? Why the hell not?

All we hear in that scene is Zelda's theme song, looped over and over again, which leads into the ending theme. We quite frankly can't know what song she played.

Um, it's quite clear that's the theme she's playing, I thought. Besides, since the graphical appearance is so important to you, if she was playing a teleportation *song* the graphics would be entirely different.

She can. She will. He has to complete the tasks she set before him first.

What, so she sent him ahead down the road to close a fucking door while she walks or something? What? What kind of fucking stupid logic is that? Besides, if he put the Master Sword back in the Pedestal of Time he would be sent back *anyway*. So she wouldn't ever send him back with the Ocarina, despite what she clearly says.

So he doesn't replace the Master Sword... ever? That would be a direct contradiction of canon, right there.

Excuse me, but Link *never* takes the Master Sword with him, or any other items for that matter, when travelling back in time. The very effect of travelling in time will leave the Master Sword in the pedestal (or leave it with Zelda, at least). She can do the rest. What HE has to do is make sure the Master Sword remains in the pedestal in the past and close the Door of Time.

Enough already. Hero of Legends has summed up your type of argument quite succinctly.

Zero Mission is a prequel to Metroid.

Done. No more. Go do something productive, Pinglesworth. Or watch a film and try and understand the concept of NARRATIVE.

Edited by Fyxe, 28 October 2006 - 06:36 PM.

[LionHarted]

We hear that song, but PLAYED BY AN OCARINA, not as normally.

Frankly it's ridiculous to claim she doesn't play Zelda's Lullaby.

Really? Zelda's Lullaby doesn't initiate time travel. =/

They are completed in the past: the Door of Time is already open, so he can close it.

That's your interpretation, and I have mine.

I don't see why either of them matters; they both rely on assumptions.

[Fyxe]

One last post here.

Really? Zelda's Lullaby doesn't initiate time travel. =/

As a Sage, I can return you
to your original time with it.

[Raien]

Here's one answer to end the argument. Zelda initiates the events of replacing the Master Sword and closing the Door of Time through her sending Link back in time, but she tells Link that it must be done because the player doesn't actually see this happening on-screen. She is not telling Link to do these things himself, she is tying up all the loose ends around OoT's time-travel plotline for the player, instead of leaving them open for speculation.

Edited by jhurvid, 28 October 2006 - 08:07 PM.

[LionHarted]

Of course, it's much easier to just say that she tells Link to do these things, and the way by which they come about is up to interpretation.

[MikePetersSucks]

Or assume Link does exactly as he's told and expected to do, since there's no logical reason to do anything else and it's the safest course of action for Hyrule.

But who the hell cares, Zelda plays the wrong damn song, and you'll be DAMNED if everyone doesn't realize it.

[CID Farwin]

I cannot believe I just read all that, I wish I had looked in on this earlier. I didn't even read all of it,
some parts I glanced over. so keep in mind that I may have missed something. I don't even remember when
in the course of 5 pages that the argument went from MM to the end of OoT.
Now if you'll excuse me a moment...

*Whacks LionHarted to kingdom come with Occam's Razor*

*deep breath*

Now let's get down to business:

Of course, it's much easier to just say that she tells Link to do these things, and the way by
which they come about is up to interpretation.

Much easier!? Of course it is! That's the whole freakin' point of Occam's Razor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*second deep breath*

It's also much easier to say that the Earth moves around the sun, rather than everything moves around the
Earth while rotating around invisible sources of gravity.

With Occam's Razor, as far as Zelda goes, what seems to be the simplest explanations are the ones that
require the least amount of fanfiction to make them work.


*third deep breath*

In order to stop myself whacking Lionharted with occam's Razor again, I'll just say a "few" things.

She says goodbye after he disappears.

She says goodbye WHEN he dissapears; or at least that's how I remember it.

Really? Zelda's Lullaby doesn't initiate time travel. =/

According to MY memory, the only song IN OoT that initiates time travel is the sun's song. In fact,
I can only think of one "_____ of time" that initiates time travel, and that's the Pedestal
of time!

*fourth deep breath*

LionHart, in order to argue against someone effectively, it is necessary to provide solid
points that in at least some way contradict the opposing argument. You are the champion of "miss the
points" because you never contradict the opposing argument. In most cases you actually start arguing
something completely different.

By the way, OUR assumptions are using material from Canon, wheras YOUR assumptions have no base in anything
except maybe your own twisted way of thinking. I've seen better logic than yours in the most nonsensical
dreams I've had where I wake up confused. Your blatant ignorance of Canon is like being outside at noon on
a cloudless day, during the summer solstice saying how dark it is!

Responce to LoinHarted:

we hear in that scene is Zelda's theme song, looped over and over again, which leads into the ending theme. We quite frankly can't know what song she played.

We hear that song, but PLAYED BY AN OCARINA, not as normally.

Frankly it's ridiculous to claim she doesn't play Zelda's Lullaby.

Responce by LoinHarted

We hear that song, but PLAYED BY AN OCARINA, not as normally.

Frankly it's ridiculous to claim she doesn't play Zelda's Lullaby.

Really? Zelda's Lullaby doesn't initiate time travel. =/

Prime example of my point.

*Final deep breath*

(To everybody:)As you can see from my post, I completely understand how extremely pissed off everybody is at
LionHarted right now, but please stop with the swearing. That's all I ask.

(To LoinHarted:)At times it seems you are arguing for the sake of arguing. If this is the case, I (and I
suppose may others) may be forced to do something...rash.

[Raien]

You misunderstood what LionHarted was saying about Zelda's Lullaby.

Zelda's Lullaby does not initiate time travel, yet she plays it in OoT's ending. If she cannot be taking Link back in time with the song (it is impossible), she must be warping him back to the Temple of Time.

Of course the fact that she says that she will use the Ocarina to send Link back to his original time, not to the Temple of Time in the future, creates a contradiction but hey, it's LionHarted's theory.

Edited by jhurvid, 01 November 2006 - 05:58 PM.

[coinilius]

You misunderstood what LionHarted was saying about Zelda's Lullaby.

Zelda's Lullaby does not initiate time travel, yet she plays it in OoT's ending. If she cannot be taking Link back in time with the song (it is impossible), she must be warping him back to the Temple of Time.

Of course the fact that she says that she will use the Ocarina to send Link back to his original time, not to the Temple of Time in the future, creates a contradiction but hey, it's LionHarted's theory.

Zelda's Lullaby also doesn't initiate warps to the Temple of Time, so he's assigning a power to it that was previously unseen anyway...

[Raien]

Zelda's Lullaby also doesn't initiate warps to the Temple of Time, so he's assigning a power to it that was previously unseen anyway...

Exactly. I'm taking the entire ending scene of the game to be representational, since so many contradictions were made in making it. The Kokiri can't leave the forest because they'll die and yet who do we see sitting in the Lon Lon Ranch party? Mido!

[Jumbie]

Exactly. I'm taking the entire ending scene of the game to be representational, since so many contradictions were made in making it.

Oh come on now! *Everything* in OoT's ending is completely true, even if it doesn't seem to make sense.

So Zelda plays her lullaby - why not, it's her song after all! She says, as a Sage she can return Link to the time he belongs to - not that she needs to play a particular song on the Ocarina of Time to send him back. No, she can do it alone by using her Seventh Sage powers, is that so hard to understand?

Or would you expect her to rather play the Song of Time, which in OoT had only a small role of opening the Door of Time and moving some blocks around? It was not before MM that the developers decided to recycle the Song of Time to initiate a time loop, if only under certain circumstances like a nearing apocalypse and praying to the Goddess of Time. Sure, the inverted Song of Time can mess up with time even more, but none of this was already thought up in OoT, so Zelda sending Link back with the Song of Time is not required.

Now, Zelda playing a warp song - why? They are in the clouds, having left off at Ganon's tower ruins. They shouldn't be far away from the Temple of Time, so if Zelda had really wanted to bring Link back to the Temple, she would've enveloped Link in one of those well-known crystal lifts that appear after each won boss fight, only going downstairs this time.

The Kokiri can't leave the forest because they'll die and yet who do we see sitting in the Lon Lon Ranch party? Mido!

That's a really embarrassing mistake of you. Everybody should have realized by now that the Deku Tree was just one big liar when he put up signs forbidding the Kokiri to leave the forest, for their own safety! Nothing happens to a Kokiri outside the forest, except for the chance that they might be killed by a Giant Peahat or a Stalchild. Also, the Deku Tree won't have been that keen on revealing the existence of his little forest sprite helpers to the Hylian people.

[Raien]

That's a really embarrassing mistake of you. Everybody should have realized by now that the Deku Tree was just one big liar when he put up signs forbidding the Kokiri to leave the forest, for their own safety! Nothing happens to a Kokiri outside the forest, except for the chance that they might be killed by a Giant Peahat or a Stalchild. Also, the Deku Tree won't have been that keen on revealing the existence of his little forest sprite helpers to the Hylian people.

Of course! It's not a mistake on the developer's part, it's just that the Deku Tree lied! How equally speculative of you to point that out!

[MikePetersSucks]

I always figured that the Deku Tree meant that if they left the forest, they would lose their youth/immortality unless they came back.

[Paviel]

Well, we know that Saria suffered no ill effects from however long she spent in the Sacred Realm, but on the other hand, she might be the exception rather than the rule.

Besides, if the Forest Temple was connected to the Sacred Realm, she might not have left the Lost Woods at all...

[Arturo]

Kokiris are seen in the Chamber of Sages, in Lon Lon Ranch and in Death Mountain. They are not dying or something, they are pefectly well. Therefore it was a lie that they couldn't abandon the forest. Speculation is saying that they never abandon the forest even though they are seen outside the forest.

[Raien]

Kokiris are seen in the Chamber of Sages, in Lon Lon Ranch and in Death Mountain. They are not dying or something, they are pefectly well. Therefore it was a lie that they couldn't abandon the forest. Speculation is saying that they never abandon the forest even though they are seen outside the forest.

Wrong. Saria is seen in the Chamber of Sages and Death Mountain because she possesses the power of a Sage to survive outside the forest. The other Kokiris possess no such power, so according to the script, Mido should have died in Lon Lon Ranch.

[Arturo]

When is it said that Saria possesses that "special power" because she's a Sage?

That's just your assumption.

[Raien]

When is it said that Saria possesses that "special power" because she's a Sage?

That's just your assumption.

Saria grants some of her Sage power to Link in the form of the forest medallion. With the power of a Sage (the power of Wisdom to be specific), it makes sense that her abilitites allow her to surpass her Kokiri roots in ways that her brethren don't (hence none of them ever leave the forest, including Saria before she awakens as a Sage).

[Arturo]

You absolutely missed my point. Are we having a competition of who misses more points or what?

You have just invented that Saria's Sage powers make her clearly diffrenet biologically speaking from all the Kokiris. That would also mean, for example that Darunia could swim or Nabooru give birth to a boy, because accoprding to you, they surpass the roots of their species.

Enough fanfiction for now.

We have seen Kokiris, normal Kokiris, inside the Lon Lon Ranch.

If you claim this to be false, you are just contradicting canon. What if I said that the whole game is not canon, that OoT never happens that it's a "metaphor"? That's what you are saying.

[Fyxe]

The only obviously metaphorical thing about the ending is that Link and Zelda are standing in the sky. They merely did that to bring the player into the emotional feeling of their goodbye. I think it's fairly obvious that their surroundings aren't really there - they're still presumably around the ruins of Ganon's Tower.

[Raien]

You have just invented that Saria's Sage powers make her clearly diffrenet biologically speaking from all the Kokiris. That would also mean, for example that Darunia could swim or Nabooru give birth to a boy, because accoprding to you, they surpass the roots of their species.

I never said that the power of the Sages would change Saria's biology. I'm saying that it gives her the power to survive outside Kokiri Forest.

We have seen Kokiris, normal Kokiris, inside the Lon Lon Ranch.

Correction: we only see Mido in Lon Lon Ranch. The other Kokiris do not leave the forest.

If you claim this to be false, you are just contradicting canon. What if I said that the whole game is not canon, that OoT never happens that it's a "metaphor"? That's what you are saying.

You have a funny way of defining canon. I interpret canon to mean details or events that can be used reliably as timeline evidence. If something is an easter egg, a pure gameplay object or even a simple continuity error, like I am saying Mido's appearance is (it is certainly not impossible for developers to make mistakes, it's time to get a grip on the concept), then it loses reliability in timeline discussion.

Take the example that in TWW's intro, it says that a young boy wielded the Master Sword and defeated Ganon. Since the Master Sword sealed Link away for seven years until he was old enough to use it, the quote in TWW's intro is incorrect. However, if you consider that Nintendo wanted to place special emphasis on Link being a child in TWW, the Hero of Winds could be connected to the Hero of Time because they were both valiant children.

Metaphors are not something to avoid for the sake of it; especially when the literal interpretations only create glaring inconsistencies that we have to speculate explanations for. In the correct context, it is important to take them into account, which is what I am doing in the face of inconsistencies in OoT's ending. The final meeting between Link and Zelda represents their friendship and the end of Link's quest to defeat evil.

Edited by jhurvid, 02 November 2006 - 02:11 PM.

[Arturo]

Correction: we only see Mido in Lon Lon Ranch. The other Kokiris do not leave the forest.

Watch the ending, for Din's sake!!!!

there are many Kokiris, two or three of them with the windmill man.

[Fyxe]

It's grasping at straws to claim abritrary parts of the ending are just mistakes.

[Raien]

It's grasping at straws to claim abritrary parts of the ending are just mistakes.

I'm sure that every scene has a perfectly good intention for their making, but that doesn't mean those intentions make no continuity errors in the process. Take Zelda playing the Zelda's Lullaby to send Link back in time, for example. Why did the developers decide that she play it instead of the Song of Time? There is a good reason; Zelda's Lullaby is the first song that Link learns in the game. It represents Link's connection to the Royal Family and in many respects, it represents Link's friendship with Zelda as well, which makes the ending very emotional when she plays the song to signal their departure from each other. This is then used to lead into the credits.

Considering that Aonouma stated in an interview that the emotions of the player were the main reason for creating Ganondorf's Beast form in OoT (as a means to create a climatic ending to the game), it should not be ignored how certain events are used to portray emotions to the players. Why does Hyrule appear at peace in OoT's past? Because the acknowledgement that Ganondorf would ravage Hyrule within the next few months would take away any satisfaction for the player that Ganondorf had been defeated in the future. Why do the Kokiri appear celebrating in Lon Lon Ranch? Because their inclusion creates the atmosphere that everyone in Hyrule is celebrating the return of peace to Hyrule. Why is Mido sitting cross-legged and looking unhappy? This is because he is contemplating his actions; how he treated Link.

From reading the script, each one of these points can be argued to be a continuity error, but there are definite emotive reasons for their inclusion within the game irrespective of continuity. How many players are going to really care that the Song of Time wasn't used to send Link back or that the Kokiri appeared outside of the Forest without dying? Such points have been overlooked to make OoT's ending the most emotive it can be for the players.

Edited by jhurvid, 02 November 2006 - 04:56 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Another possibility is that the Kokiri merely misinterpretted the Tree's original words, which we don't hear for ourselves. Maybe he was like "You should live your lives in/for the forest." And they overreacted and thought they'd die if they left.

[Jumbie]

Of course! It's not a mistake on the developer's part, it's just that the Deku Tree lied! How equally speculative of you to point that out!

Uhh..! Look, it's much more likely that the developers had the Deku Tree put up an overly strict (and untrue) warning for his children, than that they'd force some Kokiri into the credits although they're actually supposed to die there!

according to the script, Mido should have died in Lon Lon Ranch.

But he just doesn't die, neither do the other Kokiri on the celebration. It was simply a lie that a Kokiri can't live outside the forest, is that so hard to accept? Look at the Koroks in TWW, do they die if they leave Forest Haven?!

From reading the script, each one of these points can be argued to be a continuity error, but there are definite emotive reasons for their inclusion within the game irrespective of continuity. How many players are going to really care that the Song of Time wasn't used to send Link back or that the Kokiri appeared outside of the Forest without dying? Such points have been overlooked to make OoT's ending the most emotive it can be for the players.

Why don't you just accept that nothing in the ending has to be an overlooked continuity error?
Both you and me have explained why Zelda's lullaby is played, instead of the Song of Time (to remember: it's because not the particular song that's played, but Zelda's Sage powers are what sends Link back to the past).
The Kokiri are on the Ranch for a fact, because at that point they just took the risk to leave the forest, and actually survived in spite of all the warnings that the Deku Tree gave them.

I always figured that the Deku Tree meant that if they left the forest, they would lose their youth/immortality unless they came back.
Another possibility is that the Kokiri merely misinterpretted the Tree's original words, which we don't hear for ourselves. Maybe he was like "You should live your lives in/for the forest." And they overreacted and thought they'd die if they left.

Yes, something like that, why not. And anything makes more sense than taking the sign's words to be the strict truth.

Edited by Jumbie, 02 November 2006 - 06:45 PM.